I need to decided what size loader will be needed on a 1 acre pond dig. Soil is pretty good sandy loam but some of it is more of a clay loam. Soil will be brought out by our CAT 225 hoe and spoiled for the loader. Loader will haul as much as 1000ft in some places and 300-400ft in others. there are no real obstructions between dig site and drop site. Over all volume is 25,000cuyds of compacted soil. I need to figure out the optimal loader size and estimate time and fuel for this. So far, it really looks like the bigger loader will win because that is less laps, less travel time, and less overall time at a cost of fuel. However, as you guys well know, getting a 988 to a jobsite is not always that easy. They are BIG. We are probably looking at a CAT machine and will likely rent on this job since we rarely have a call for a loader that big. We have considered dump trucks but the problem is unless there are several running, They will hold up the productivity of the hoe and we still would need better placement that a loader can offer. Here is where we are right now: Hoe - 1.2yd bucket, 3 buckets pulled/spoiled per min, 150 hrs plus shaping time. Loader - 10yd bucket, 4min cycle time, 150yds/hr, 200hrs total. This is all assuming a 10yd bucket which is HUGE for a smaller machine. Probably closer to 6yds. I guess the major factor here is that travel time.
Knock 28% off for swell that is what we use for most soil in our area. A 10 yd bucket then hauls 7.6 yards. and adds 29 hours to your figure. This may be a stupid question but why a wheel loader? why not a tractor and scraper, or a dozer, even a haul truck and small dozer to strike off piles.I would think wheel loader would beat you to death and it would be hard to finish with but I have only run one a little bit while I was in the service and that was on snow removal. But I do build ponds all the time never seen anyone build one with a wheel loader. Mud and soft conditions would make for a slipery ride not to mention climbing a 3:1 bank.
My post might have been misleading, we will be using our CAT excavator for the digging so the loader would be purely for hauling spoil. The excavator is the most efficient way IMO to dig the hole. The question now is how to most efficiently move the spoil. We will not be finishing with the loader, we have a skid steer and 3pt tractor for that stuff. We just need to get the real estate moved away from the pond.
I'd be using a cat and a can if it were my job to do... get a d-8 pullin a pan and he will move 2x as much in an hour as you will digging it with a 225 and ferrying it with a wheel loader, with 1/3 the operator. Get down to a little below grade right off and pump the water away, or set your stand pipe right off, and then hog dirt. Prolly 2 pan widths at a time to keep level going down, get to grade and move over, cleaning up as you go. If you insist on the excavator, get 2 artic trucks instead of a wheel loader and just jkeep fillin instead of piling and then moving it with the loader.
question...........I'm assuming you are using the dirt to build the dam, how are you planning on compacting? seems pretty hard to do a decent job of compacting and shaping with a wheel loader on those grades. Small tractors may do a nice job of landscaping but that to me seems more like for finish work than for the actual compaction and building of the dam. :my2c
I am certainly open to ideas but hard to understand how a D8 can be faster pulling pans. The travel speed is usually way slow making the travel time much higher. What am I missing here? The excavator should be able to be VERY productive but I agree that throwing spoil on the ground and picking it up seems a waste. This is why I have questions on the loader thoughts. Just seems a huge waste of time/fuel. I need to move 20+yds at a time to make this work efficiently. Compacting and shaping is a non-issue right now and will be done later. We are primarily focused on just moving dirt right now.
If your ever going to need to compact it, its best to do it as you lay the fill down. Especially if its the dam, my impression was that it was more of a tank style pond. Here is where a d-8 and pan make their money, with one operator and one motor, they can load, carry, and spread 18 to 20 yards just as fast as you can dig it with the 225. there is a company in cali that specializes in mass excavating that uses d-10's pullin pans whenever possible... watch them on you tube. MacAninch is the company
I saw a company that uses the dozers as push aids for scrapers but I did not see dozers actually doing the pulling. I will look around on that.
I used to live in So Cal and I never saw a dozer pulling a pan until I went to Branson, Missouri. To this day I can not figure out how the slow speeds and high cost to maintane/replace the undercarriage pencils out. IMO, and I assume most others, the dozer will be the most efficient way to move dirt up to about 300-400 feet. Any farther and you will have a tough time beating a scraper. If you have tough digging a push Cat (or push/pull scrapers) will help at the borrow. The scrappers will compact as they drive over the fill. If you need to process the material than you will need a water truck and another dozer, knock down machine, or high speed compactor at the fill. Some may argue that an excavtor and off-road, articulated trucks are as efficient but I don't think so. Many dirt movers are moving this way but it is because of many factors, including the versatility of this set up. Scrapers also come with very high maintenance costs, and cost a lot up front. Articulated trucks are expensive too but they usually live longer with lower O/A maint. costs. Excavators are probably one of the least expensive tools to own and operate. When you factor in the costs and versatility it can be close to the same price per yard to move the dirt. Hopefully this info will help you to decide. Lastly, if you do not compact the fill as you place it you will have to move all that dirt again so you can place it in lifts that are small enough to allow for proper compaction. The only other way I have seen to get big lift compaction is to place many,many feet of dirt (on the order of 10' or more) above the fill and leave it there for many months. Pressure and time-just like in mother nature but not very practical for most applications.
I have run the numbers several ways and though I am sure scrapers have their place, but the versatility and familiarity with the excavator method as well as what is available to us, make it our only choice right now. I realize running a couple D11s with 50+ yd pans would be better but the initial and operating costs would be astronomical. I think the frustrating part is the distance which seems to be right in the middle of too far and too short for about everything. I am trying hard to estimate the travel times for an articulated dump, standard tandem dump, and loader. So far the loader is winning but not by much and only because we cannot budget 2 trucks. The spoil will all be shaped into useless aesthetic berms so months of settling will not be an issue.
I have more questions, in my mind a pond is built in a ditch or between 2 hills so you move material from up stream to down stream building a dam. In your first post you mentioned 25,000 yds of compacted fill, then you write So are you just digging a hole that amounts to 25,000 yards and wasteing all the dirt comeing out of the hole or are you building a dam? Some pictures of the area would help. I looked up the specs on a 225 excavator and I dont think it would be efficient to load trucks with. But I still think a wheel loader is not the best option. A big ag tractor and direct mount scraper are easy to rent easy to transport because you drive them and more efficient than a 225 hoe and a wheel loader. Here is a link to some pictures I took last summer a cat and a can and a smaller ag tractor and a acraper HeavyEquipmentForums
I should have said "25k yds of compacted soil". I was referring to the soil in the ground, when fluffed, that 25K yds is going to fluff up by 25-35%. Just picture a flat, boring wheat field. We are digging a pond solely to build landscape berms for privacy. There is no damn being built, just a hole in the ground. We will berm some around the pond for additional privacy though. The issue is we own the 225 and really hard to go rent something when we already own an excavator.
I would go rent a FWA 200H.P.+ Ag Tractor for under $30.00 per hour and buy a Reynolds 12P Dirt Pan for around $5,000.00 and move some dirt. Just running one pan you can still move a lot of dirt in that short a distance. JMO
Ok I now understand just a borrow pit. Still sounds like scraper dirt to me. Must be some special wheat to warrent its on privacy fence I wonder what goes on out there after dark!
CHANGE OF DIRECTION..... After some hard calc this morning, I am still left with some questions but I am coming around to the scraper idea. I can likely borrow a pull tractor from a farmer. Even having to rent it, it should prove a better situation. Here are the questions I have: 1. Is there is ballpark rule for HP of tractor required vs pull pan capacity? tires on the ground, 2x4/4x4, etc 2. Can anyone help me some some rough ideas of pan load time, transit or travel time, etc to arrive at a cycle time per load? Lets just assume 15yd pan and 1000ft travel distance. 3. Are there certain pull tractors to stay away from for this? 4. We likely need to get to about 10-12ft deep and will still plan to shape with the excavator after but curious what kind of grade should be held coming out so we don't end up stuck climbing out. 5. What kind of distance do I need to fill a pan? What I am concerned about it needing 500ft to load a pan when the pond size is roughly 200x200. Turning around for another pass will kill the cycle times.
I've never seen the ag tractor/pan in person but the self propelled scrapers can easilt load in that distance. If they have trouble loading than you may have to rip the dirt and/or get a push Cat to assist it in the cut.
Scraper tractors to stay away from are ones that are out of warranty. You shouldt have any trouble filling a 15 yard pan in 200 feet I would recomend 4X4 or track tractor 350hp to 600hp. I will stay with 15 yard scraper for my math prodject Load time should be between 30 and 45 seconds 1000 ft haul with good road lets use 12 mph for haul speed loaded and 16mph for return trip you should get about 18 loads per hour If you figure 15 yard scraper 28% swell then you haul 10.9 yards per load compacted fill multiplie by 18 loads/hr and divide by 25000 and you get 128 hours I know a man who has a fleet of 9520 deeres and rents them for $55/hr and rents scrapers 17yard and 21 yard for $3000/month a 9630 will burn about 17 gal/hr fuel on a normal day Were are you located?
I am in KS. The numbers you have a pretty dang close to what I am figuring. I am calculating on a 15yd but obviously big would be better within reason.
DGODGR CAT has a equipment cycle hadbook for figuring this stuff out. Give Mark a call on Monday.
Yair...to sum all this up. We're digging a 25,000 cubic yard hole and hauling around around 200 yards average and no compaction or tight spec. reqired on the spoil heap. The dirt is sandy loam with just a bit of clay. I'd like a bit of that action!! If you have an excavator...even an old 225 and a bobcat and a boxblade on an ag. tractor I don't see how you could do it any cheaper than with ordinary highway dumps. Just hire them as needed to keep the digger working and trucks not waiting. If I was hireing in equipment I would choose around a 300HP steeltrack crawler and a 15-18 yard scoop. In these days of rubber tracks and wheels people have forgotten how a propper crawler will scramble out of a hole any place the scoop is loaded and come down off an embankment any place the load is dumped. I have seen fellers operating crawler rigs following a haul road as if it was a bloody scraper. To get best production though you mostly have to rip... these days that can be a problem with a hydraulic rig. Cheers.
I am not the OP in this thread and I have many Cat Performance Handbooks (dating back over 15 years) so, thanks anyway, but I have no need to call Mark nor figure out the OPs cycle times. It is, however, a good suggestiion for the OP.
if you are on a budget, buy a used TA dump truck, do what you need to do, then sell it Just my opinion, that's really not a big project to sink a lot of money in for equipment rental/purchase. If you are in a hurry, then may not be the best solution Or hire a couple of guys with dump trucks that may not have work at the moment I work by myself, just an old dump truck, little dozer and hoe.... pine tree with red arrow is the same pine tree in the middle about 6 acres or more....I havent decided when to quit digging
my bad, I thought this was something you were digging for yourself
I think you can make it work just fine with your 225 and a loader. If you rent a 980 cat loader, or something that size, and get a loader operator that knows what he is doing and you'll be fine. A good loader operator will grade off a hall road so it's smooth and fast, place the material and grade it as he goes, and get good compaction by wheel rolling the material after it's placed and graded. One thing that can hold you back is if the material is wet, but even if it is if you just pile it until it dries then go back and shape it after. I've done that type of work with a loader a hundred times without a problem. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have.
Another option, run the excavator to dig your pond, windrow pile your dirt up so the tractor/pan combo can load looser material(will help if you are running a quad track tractor) and keep his cycle times going. Thus will also keep your excavator digging without having to wait for a truck. If it does get too wet to run the combo over it, you have the option of top loading with your excavator. just my thoughts. Trbo
I would take your advice. Loading shovels are not made for this kind of work