I saw a short video of a dumptruck pulling a tandem axle pintle fifth wheel with a lowboy hooked to it. It looked to be in another country. Is this something that can be done in the states? I was thinking a single axle with adjustable fifth wheel to put the right weight on the pintle. Is this a pipe dream? I just don't want another truck to license and insure for little use.
I believe small operators using a single axle truck usually need to multi purpose the truck. Usually this means a dump with pintle hitch. I have seen gooseneck in dump.
I see it all the time. A guy I know used a tandem dual binder to pull a lowboy with his TLB on it. He had a nice padded canvas cover make to protect the front glass on the hoe. Works great.
It works. A lot of the California trucks I see are trucks pulling full trailers, which is the same thing. You will need tractor type air brakes on the truck.
I'm having a little trouble getting my headed wrapped around this. Are you wanting to hook one of these to a lowboy and pull it with a dump truck?
Something like this? I would imagine it would take a minute to learn how the rig would handle.
The guy I know uses a 20 ton tandem dual Eager Beaver trailer with pintle hitch directly to his International. No intermediate 5th wheel(whatever it is called) like bam1968 posted.
Something like this might be better, cut out the dolly. http://www.truckpaper.com/OnlineAuctions/Details.aspx?ohid=5581503&lp=TRK&bcatid=28
That trailer looks like the ultimate setup for an owner operator with only one truck. I wonder why they aren't more popular.
Extreme weight on the pintle would be my guess. It would take weight off the front and the dump truck couldn't carry any load. That might be OK. It might now. The full trailer idea would be the opposite. You could haul a load of rock and your machine at the same time. But if the machine was loaded and the truck was empty there wouldn't be much traction.
Its says in the ad it only had a GCW of 36k lbs. So I guess if you had a 120 size machine you were hauling around or maybe a 953 you could probably use that.
That's why I mentioned the single axle dolly. 17,000 on a single axle I believe in missouri, if you put the sliding fifth wheel ahead of the single axle I was thinking around 12 to 15 on the pintle and same on the axle. Say 30,000 total there would allow me to pull a 322 cat hoe with permit. I pull a 963 on a triple axle pintle now but that's all I want on it. 322 are around 55,000 I believe so you could balance it and the lowboy half on the front and half on the rear tandems. I don't work a real big area and it's mostly rural. With the empty wt. of my truck at 22,000 if I had say 15,000 lb. pintle weight that would give me enough traction as it's not real hilly around hear. It's just a thought, I haven't bought the hoe yet but am dealing on it. I have hauled my 63 and a load of gravel a few times grossing over 100,000. You just don't get in a hurry. This setup would put me at somewhere around the 90 to 95,000 lb. range which is doable with that many axles.
I worked with a fella that pulled one of those for PCI with a curbing machine on it. He said it was terribly heavy on the tongue to the point where you couldn't steer if it was wet. Great idea but cant put the weight where its supposed to be. The dolly system would be better but traction without weight on the drives would be tricky. At speed the dolly would be a disaster unless you could lock the 5th wheel.
What do you mean by locking the fifth wheel? It seems quite similar in application (but not scale) to towing pup trailers.
The guy here used a set-up similar to the Load King on the link but it has a dove tail and ramps that hinge over the tail.
The pintle setup I have on my truck is rated up to 80,000 lbs. and 20,000 tongue weight. I've had around 15,000 tongue weight on it to be legal and my truck is long enough and the pintle is set as close to the back axle as I could set it that weight doesn't affect steering. Those dolly's pictured above are my thought but with a single axle and weight on the pintle. Having no weight on the pintle would make the truck to light on gravel roads I'm afraid. If it was all pavement a dolly like that would work.
I have no personal experience with a set up like this but I think you might have problems while loading and unloading equipment in 'less than ideal' situations. For instance, if the truck, dolly and lowboy were not sitting in a straight line.....I think there is a chance that things could get real goofy pretty fast especially if it were setting on a downward incline. Like I said I have no personal experience so I might be completely off base. Just my $.02
Yair . . . I have never really thought about it . . . going way back we used to stick dollys under anything. Why is a lowboy (as you folks call them) with a machine on it any different to a dog loaded with gravel? This setup is common enough . . . I have seen a three trailer rig pulling two Hi-track D8's and a large JD grader . . . . Cheers.
The difference I would see from a lowboy to the pics that cm1995 and scrub posted would be is they have ramps since as you all know a lowboy gooseneck detaches if you had a dolly and pulled forward how would you be able to back backup straight and hook back up to the trailer? Far off idea maybe but could a section of frame be made with a fifth wheel on it that would have a steerable axle on it that would have 2 pins to pin it on the back of the dump truck kind of like a pin on axle on the back of lowboy to attach and detach quickly? Jerry Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Yair . . . Sorry folks. Talking out of turn again . . . never even thought. I just can't get my head around detachable goosenecks. As I have mentioned I have never seen one or envisioned a situation where one would be useful. Cheers.
If you would have ever slid an excavator off the side trying to load/unload in the dead of winter (icy, snowy tracks and frosty iron) you would never have any desire to load up the azz again. Been there, done that with a 25 ton excavator and laid it right over on the cab side. I'll keep my detach.
Most single axle dollies are setup to be close to neutral tongue weight. I'd don't think a run of mill SA dolly is gonna stand up to 30k of kingpin weight. Another issue that may apply, your state might prohibit converter dollies directly attached to a truck. In Kansas any dog/wagon/full trailers pulled directly by the truck have a turntable requiring a floating hitch, so no tongue weight. I don't know if we're the only state with this silliness, but i can hope. I see a lot of harvesters pulling grain trailers behind service/straight trucks for moving. Either they don't know or don't care i give it 50/50.
This trailer is for sale near here and is the sort of thing I would like to have one day, probably with one less axle though. It is set up to remain under 19m which is the maximum allowable length for such a combination. We don't get too many snowy/icy days over here, although I've seen a few utube clips of what can happen. http://www.quicksales.com.au/ad/untitled/itemid-1000218633
Yair . . . Gotcha there Shimmy1 This detachable gooseneck thing has always intrigued me. Are they used in other places that have ice and snow . . . tctractors or any of our European posters care to chip in with a comment. I spoke to a Kiwi heavy haul contractor in Christchurch and he seemed unimpressed with the concept. He reckoned a good long beaver tail and twelve foot hydraulic ramps were all they used. I see some of the Bifold hydraulic ramps available these days provide less than nine degrees of angle and can deploy with a remote in just a couple of minutes. I suppose though the ramps would be a bit heavier than the detach mechanism. Cheers.
Small contractors around here use rear load with ramps. One guy does have a detach but bought another out and all I see him pulling now is the old rear load he had. Most of the jobs I do are a short jobs. Some times I might hit two or three a day. Granted the detach is easier and safer but a soft farm field or over to the side of a narrow gravel road and a detach becomes a pain. I'm thinking a short stiff neck lowboy with long ramps. My pintle hitch has a six foot tail with almost five foot ramps. I don't know the laws yet in Missouri and something like this might not fly. There is a guy I've seen about 70 mile from me that has a dolly hooked to his lowboy and pulls it with a steiger fwd tractor. Has it set up for air brakes and pulls a 70 to 80,000 hoe behind him.
Not legal in IL or safe anywhere IMO. Here, "farm wagons" as I'm sure this genius is calling it are limited to 36,000 gross. Also, IL specifically says gooseneck type trailers are not farm implements. Are there no height restrictions in Australia? Here in the US, we have to be under 13'6 (4.1m). You don't need a very big machine to get real close to that restriction.
It must be weight restrictions, but all you see here in this part of California is mechanical RGNs for the most part. They require no hydraulic pump and tank to weigh down the tractor, or small engine on the trailer to never start when needed. Simplicity wins most of the time I would say.
Yair . . . Wes J. I could be speaking out of turn again but I think here in Queensland 4.6 meters is normal max and over height permits are available on some routes . . . Queenslander or some one still in the trucking game will correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers.
15 Feet! that's a lot more than here.
Scrub, I believe it is 4.3 for heavy vehicles generally, 4.6 for double deck car carriers, livestock trailers and indivisible loads, ie. oversize. B doubles and road trains with drop decks or floats can go to 4.8 but are restricted to road train routes. 5.0 for indivisible loads with pilot/police escort.
The height can be an issue in my area. We're legal for 13'-6" but that doesn't mean anything for the old overpass that has 12'-8" clearance.
I was just going to say that, about the only thing around here that is 13'6" and above are the interstate overpasses, most the old county bridges are short, sometimes only 12'. Here is what a detach aka lowboy looks like Scrub , takes the deck height from 36" +/- down to 18"-20"+/- 16" can make quite a difference depending on the size of the machine and loading conditions. Not my machine or trailer, just a pic off the web http://xl.spinutech.com/webres/Imag...aulic-detachable-gooseneck-construction-1.jpg And this is how it looks split apart. Pretty sure its much easier also getting a roller on one of these than a deck over with ramps. http://www.cargotrucktrailer.com/ph...ailer_detachable_lowboy_trailer_with_ramp.jpg
Yair . . . Gotcha Queenslander, thanks for the heads up, I was a little unsure and too slack to look it up. Thanks too for the pictures movindirt . . . the detach system sure allows for decent sized tyres on the trailer. Cheers.
Yair . . . . I seem to remember something about a "folding gooseneck" that was actuated by the behind the cab winch on the truck . . . are these still around or are they superseded? Cheers.
That would be a mechanical folding neck I would guess. Don't see them around this part of the country, just guessing they would be something used a lot in the oil field industry as it seems most of those trucks have a big winch behind the cab. Being able to winch them back on the truck would eliminate a ground bearing trailer not being able to return to loading height from soft ground.
Folding goose neck trailers where like A holes at one time, everyone had one. Then along came hydraulic and air supencions, bifold ramps which all had lower tare weights so they became a thing of the past. Side loading a folding gooseneck as a sure way to stuff the pins in the gooseneck then they wouldn't fold up or down. One other down side to them was to may drivers were to lazy to throw an old car tyre under the slip plate and when they lifted it up they would bring dirt up over the turntable(fifth wheel) and wore it real quick.
Yair . . . Gotcha Tones. Shows how things are done different in different places, I have never seen one out in the sticks. I imagine all detachable and folding systems would have issues with constant use on rough and corrugated roads, Cheers.
Tag trailers are the go to trailers for shifting small equipment ( up to 20 tons or so) here in Oz especially for the small operator doing muiltiable jobs a day. Bartlet ball is the preferred coupling or though some use a pindle hook. A Bartlet ball is much smoother and easier on the trailer drawbar but has less load capacity where as a pindle hook is much better in an off road situation. If you want to go all out Tag trailers can be manufactured with widening deck , self steer axel. One of the best features of a Tag trailer is that it can be towed loaded with an empty truck as opposed to a loaded dog trailer which you should have some weight on the drive axels( more than tare weight) in order to have better control on the road. At the end of the day it's all horses for courses.
Yair . . . Thanks Tones. For those (like me) who are unsure of the terminology . . . i.e. "Bartlet ball". It seems they come in several sizes . . . on the largest the ball is a tad over six inches in diameter. Cheers.
I was once told by a reputable excavator that the reason there are so many 20 ton excavators is because there is a limit on the weight of a tag along trailer. Excavator model numbers are about metric tons. Put a 20 ton excavator on a three ton trailer, some of the weight is on the hitch. Somehow the math works, 20 tons on the trailer tires? Willie
Depends on the state. Here in IL, we only get 34,000 on a set of tandems so most guys with an excavator on a tag trailer run 3 trailer axles. I don't think you could get a 20 ton machine to "bridge" on a tandem tag.
I can legal my 963 but you have to have around 15 thousand on the pintle. That's with a three axle trailer. You would have to go up in the low 20,000 pintle weight to scale on a tandem axle I would think. Folding neck trailers are heavy and if you don't use the fold much they will freeze. Also they are usually ground bearing and if it's soft won't lift the load so you can hookup. What's the green handles on top of the ball?
Good thing we don't have many bridges around here so long as you stay to one side of the river or the other Seems there is only 2 private guys here in my / your area that run a 3 axle tag, most run the 30 or 35 ton single drop semi trailers. Always fun to see them turn a tight corner with a 210 hoe on the trailer with the whole thing leaning like crazy.
Yair . . . . gwhammy. It holds the hitch down on the ball, better picture here . . . . Cheers.
Tones, The only reason I have a dog trailer on my wish list is because I need to keep the ringfeder to tow a tipping trailer. Another option might be a tag trailer and a convertible ringfeder/ flying saucer hitch. I've never seen one in the flesh, how about you? On Edit, Looks like it is a Ringfeder/ Bartlett Ball hitch. http://www.hitchbros.com.au/GarTh_Truck_Towbar.html
I've never seen a Bartlett ball hitch before, thanks for sharing the page Queenslander. There is a video on their site that shows how the combo hitch works if anyone else like me has never seen one.
. The internet service where i'm at the mo is bad and can't open the link. Is that the type that rolls over to which ever hitch you want? If Iv'e never seen one but have seen plenty of Bartlett balls on dog trailers. In Melbourne many years ago there where outfits with a very high goose neck trailers that the tail door of the bin could pass under. the bin had a ball bolted to the floor . To couple just swing the tail door open, back the truck onto the coupling, connect ,close the door and go. Looked as ugly as sin but guess it worked well. All the air and hydraulics where the same as for dog trailers
Here ya goes...: http://www.rogerstrailers.com/ They are local to me. Note when loaded up, and attached (ready to roll) the deck is about 18"-20" off the ground. (and the bottom is about 5".....they do have problems with railroad crossing's getting stuck sometimes.)
You see a lot of drop decks around here with detach. I've watched them when they see a crossing or something it will drag on you can watch the smoke roll as they get enough speed up to drag across them. See the scrape marks all the time.
Yair . . . Gotcha digger doug. It seems to me the art of the U.S. trailer manufacturers is in building low clearance units to comply with regulations . . . I would hate to have to pull something with five inches clearance. It seems though that the need is not universal for here is one U.S. manufacturer making a standard type of tag with ramps . . . same 8degree system is available on their 30 ton lowboy and my question is why would you use a detachable in preference to simple ramps like this. In no way am I trying to be argumentative . . . just curious. Cheers.
It seems to me that the real heavy trailers, Murray and Cozad around here anyway, are designed to shave every inch of height and every ounce of weight. The convenience of hydraulic this and that is not really convenience if you have to pull the blade off the machine to make weight. Driving up those nice 8 degree ramps on top of that thing is no longer any fun if you have to remove the ROPS to get under bridges.
I'm the same way Scrub . We split the difference on the old 10' wide float . It was a double drop that sat pretty low to the ground ( 6 " clearance ) . To make it work in our environment cut the vertical beams short on the goose neck . Looks a little strange as it sits higher in the front than rear . No high center road issues with it . HeavyEquipmentForums HeavyEquipmentForums
Most all the private guys in my area run these trailers, they are always moving and so they don't want to take the time to split the trailer everytime, and for a 20 ton hoe they work fine. Take routes to avoid the bridges and you'll be fine. Most all of them run them without ramps, including me. Saves your back and with a excavator you can jump on and off without any issues. That said I'd like to have a lowboy because climbing on that 36" tall deck when its slick gets sketchy ointhead Its fun to watch guys back 953's up on these old short single drop trailers that are 8' wide. :drinkup
Yes, the number I always remember is 13' 6". I did a foundation drawing once for a used Bullard Vertical lathe that was 14' 5" tall. It came down from Buffalo one day in one piece on a lowboy. (much to my surprise) IIRC it was 60k lbs, and over the 102" width as well. With it on the trailer, I measured just about 5" clearance, 18" of floor, and then the 14' 6" of machine. So being overweight, over width, and over height, it had an escort and took 5 hours to travel the 100 miles. You'll note on my linked company, they offer a "well" between the rear wheels, to further tuck the boom of a large excavator down lower. Pulling with low clearance....these are popular around here: http://www.roadtrafficsigns.com/Clearance-Sign/Railroad-Low-Ground-Clearance-Sign/SKU-X-W10-5.aspx
Yair . . . Thanks fellers. Its a whole different environment you work in. Cheers.
"Twelve foot six, it said on the sign, and those chickens were stacked to thirteen nine!" It's horses for courses, you have to buy your trailer, if it's just the one, to haul the biggest, heaviest, ugliest, most helpless load you can think you will ever possibly haul, keeping it more or less legal and squeezing through under bridges and overpasses, through tunnels, and over bridges built in the 50's and 60's designed for the occasional 80,000 pound freight truck. Then at the end of the haul tug it all up a grade so steep you need a nine as a helper on the last mile. That's heavy haul, lol.
Those are referred to as scissorneck trailers here, folding neck as well. Like gwhammy said, they are a staple in the oil field. You can haul a dozer on them to site, then turn around and drag a shack up the back, and put a pick-up truck on the neck. I have two equipment trailers, a 53+ft scissor neck and a ~30ft lowboy. Started with the old lowboy, kept it when i got the scissor neck since i thought the short trailer would be handy for city work, but to be honest I rarely use it now. (My pictures below) Honestly, just running up the ramps is nice, when conditions are good. Saves a lot of time over the back compared to the front. But climbing up in the winter with snow-packed tracks, or even mud, can be pretty treacherous. There's a reason we see so many machines on their side next to trailers, especially dozers. Killed or disabled people in the process. I've walked my hoe up the neck of my trailer, carrying a hoe-pack on a chain, phone in one hand coffee in the other, dead of winter, not a care in the world. Not the same scenario up the back of my trailers!!
Your long trailer would be right at home here JoshA, the truck even has a bullbar... don't see too many of those outside Oz. Or do you call them moosebars?
55ton 26'deck drop side detachable was pushing 13'6" tall 1,300 miles if I didn't have a drop side It would have been over height.
It was common in NJ before WWII to pull a lowbed trailer attached to a dolly hitched to a heavy single axel dumptruck. Theses were small local contractors and could not afford the luxury of having a single purpose truck. Also keep in mind that the equipment was small, Caterpillar D4 and D6 size bulldozers, 1/2 cy to 3/4cy shovels, backhoes and cranes, 1 1/2 cy to 2 cy loaders, maybe a Caterpillar 12 grader and a 10 ton three wheel roller. Most of the equipment was 20 tons and less and slow speeds. My family had these set ups until about 1920 in Hudson County NJ, they were pulled by Mack AC chain drive dumptrucks, the area was small and the speeds where 10 to 20 mph, (down hill with a strong tail wind). My Grandfather told me stopping was the biggest issue, not speed. They were very large paving contractors at the time and bought tractor trailers in the early 1920's.
You got it, moose bumpers here! I sure like these trucks! If I did a lot of equipment hauling I'd have a truck/trailer like Clintm posted, I don't like how high, and heavy, my trailers are, but they offer a lot of versatility.