It took a while to find the right one, but I think I got me a good 'ern! It has 3040 on the clock and looks to be 'bout ready to have the pins turned (never been turned) and the sprockets replaced. This is the only thing that I can find that it needs to have done in the near future. 6-way, ROPS, sweeps, nice 5-point ripper bar with three shanks, brush rake included. I'd rented a D6N in the past, as well as a D4 to accomplish all my big work, but thought this to be the perfect maintainance dozer for the years to come. It has the Operators Manual behind the seat, but I didn't get a service or parts manual with it...anybody got a line on those? Am I gonna be able to pull the tracks myself with no specialized tools besides a grinder, punch, and sledge?:beatsme I now submit this post to the masters of dirt... Thanks!
I think all oem tracks from jd were SALT tracks and you should be able to unbolt the master link to break the tracks. looks like a good machine. keep an eye on the controle vavle. they will start to leak and are a pain to rebuild properly not to mention pricey
I don't know the specific specs on that tractor but like Buckfever said all you need to remove the tracks is take the 4 bolts out of the master link pad. The master link is easily detectable from the other links, it should have alligator teeth that holds the link together. When you put the tracks back together, be sure to use anti-seize on the threads and if the master link bolt threads are damaged or worn in any way (personally if we remove the master link bolts, I always use new bolts), replace them with new ones - When you remove the tracks in the future, you will be thanking yourself if you did or cussing because you have to drill them out.:Banghead
Ahhhh....a master link, eh? What control valve...for the 6-way? This one?
Thank you! I'll try to find the master link...sadly, it's up at the ranch right now, I'm back in the valley:Banghead Alligator teeth link...Got it! Anti-seize and new bolts...gotcha!
Remember to open the bleed valve to release tension on the idler and slakck off the tracks BEFORE you remove the master link. Completely collapse the idler into the track frame. You can assist this after the bleed valve is opened by GENTLY reversing with the blade and ripper down. This pulls the track tight accross the top, and pushes the idler all the way in. Then break the track down for removal. It will be easier to put back on this way. Also, I find it easier to split the track by first positioning the master link on the idler, at about 10:00 O'clock. Be sure not to stand in front of the track while doing this, as it may fall forward, and even a small track like yours will leave a nasty mark if you are in the way when it comes down. One more note, before you start. Check the prices on the bushing turn vs a replacement set of rails or a replacement track group. I have found many times it is not worth it to turn bushings on the smaller machines like yours, but do the research first. If you do not do the turn, you can run the first side to near destruction before replacing, so you get more out of it.
JDOFMEMI took the words out of my mouth. I don't have any customers that turn bushings on SALT track on small machines anymore. Cat even make their tracks with thicker bushings and they usually last the life of the rails now. Also last time I checked the Deeres have a stepped master link that unbolts the same as the alligator teeth. They work the same but are much harder to put back together. The issue with the valves is that they leak out the spools. Never seen a Deere with 5,000 or more hours where those valve didn't leak. Good Luck!
That looks a real nice and tidy machine and well set up for what you want. I agree with JDOFMEMI, check pricing on new chains, these can be a much easier and cheaper in the long run than turning or bush replacement. Check rollers as well as you don't want to put new chains on worn out rollers. How bad are the pin and bushes? If they are not too bad you may be better off running them to destruction, (although not to the point of sprocket jumping or tracks wandering off the machine), and then replace, rollers, sprockets, idlers at the same time. Although this is more expense at one time, you will get more hours out of an undercarriage where all components are zero hours than replacing bits and pieces. Congrats on the new machine. Baz
Ahhh! Thanks! When pondering this (don't get me thinking) as I was looking at the rig before purchase, I'd thought I'd take the grease plug out of the track tensioner and place a length of 4x6 between the blade and the front of the tracks and ease 'er back to relive tension.:beatsme You guys are great, thanks for the help!
Hmmm...trying to figure what this will cost. Must make some calls. Any suggestions for the Central Valley in CA (Modesto)?
Thanks Baz! Sure glad I passed on that old 475 from a couple weeks back!:drinkup The sprockets are sharp, but imagine they can go for a while, the pins maybe at 55%? Just a guess, however. So, ride 'em to the gates of hell seems to be the concensus...?
Yeah, you are much better off with this than the Case.:iagree If everything else is reasonable, but the sprockets are getting bad, I would replace the sprockets, but it all depends on the general condition of the undercarriage. If the bushes and pins are worn, the sprocket will start to get out of pitch with the chains, but if you have s.a.l.t. chains the sprocket will generally wear out before the pins, just make sure that your bushes are not wearing badly or cracked. If they are, then just run it out and then replace everything then. Baz
Thanks Baz! Please clarify a couple things for me. When you say "bushes", I'm thinking you are referring to the layer (as seen on older rigs) surrounding the pins themselves, or where the pins are pressed into? All I have is pins with nothing around them. I assumed that this was the way they came?:beatsme
Your rails are held together with bushings. Your links (which is two rails and the bushings) are held to the next link by a pin through the previous rails bushing. Here is a handy link for wear limit for various Bulldozer tracks.
Your track chains are made up of links that have an internal and external end. The internal end has the bush holding the two halves together. The external part of the next link fits over the bush and then has a pin that goes through the outside of the link, through the bush of the adjoining internal link, and into the outside of the external link. The bushes will wear from the sprocket where the teeth contact the bush, and can wear through the bush so the pin is exposed. The pins wear on the inside of the bush and the link joins become sloppy extending the length of the track and allowing them to twist and in extreme cases walk off the track rollers and actually peel off the machine altogether. The link FurakawaMatt posted will give you an idea of how the wear is measurable. Baz
Alrighty...thank you both for the lesson here! I'll try to get that absorbed into this mushy stuff.:drinkup
Hey Baz...and anyone else! Here's some pics of the pins and both sprockets...just run 'em on out? One sprocket is worse than the other...
Also...what's going on here? The ram for the tensioners are caked with crap. While cleaning one out, I noticed this...some kind of seal deterioration? What is that thang? While the ram looks great, it's like cement caked in there! :beatsme
just curious how much did you give for it?? My dad has a 650c that he put a brandnew undercarriage on and all new steering clutches and unfortunatly he didnt replace the hydraulic hoses on the six way and the first time out one of his hands pushed to close into a brushfire and the angle cyclinder line blew and burnt up the radiator and engine wiring. poor dozer is still sitting at his shop a year later with paint on the grousers. Im thinking about offering him some money for it but I know if i fix it, he will be borrowing the **** out of it. he has a couple 65 komatsus and a blade so as long as it aint fixd he doesnt need it.
Looks like from your picture the bushings are about worn to the pins inside. Some of them may even be into the pins. With that much wear I would say you should get new pins and bushings instead of turning them. Your sprockets are worn out as well and would need replacement with the P&B. The seal (track adjuster) looks like the scrub seal that keeps crap out of the front idler pushrod area of adjuster. Does your adjusters work? They may be fully out with as much track wear as you have. Getting them to retract could be a problem for track repair. What purpose is the dozer being used for? If it is just yourself it may make a difference in how much you are willing to spend on it.
Thank you very much for your analysis. Hopefully I can crank a few hundred more hours out of this before replacing it all. I haven't tried retracting the adjusters yet, still learning about these things before I dive in. As mentioned, all my big work is already done...ponds, roads, pads, clearing, etc. with a rental rig. This will be a maintainance rig...but after repairs, I may look at some hired work for it. It has exactly 3170 on the clock and is a very tight machine except for the never-been-touched unders.
Sounds like a plan. It is a nice looking machine and I like the ripper. Wish I had one on my komatsu (I think it did have one at one point because I have a third control lever at my hydraulic selector that goes no where).
New rails and sprockets are a sound investment. Machine looks very good otherwise. Clean and inspect those adjusters before you cram all that crud where it doesn't belong. Given the wear I'd take a close look at all the idlers and rollers because a machine that nickel and dimes usually gets abused way more than it should. Prices for these little guys UC parts are very reasonable.
The idlers and rollers feel and look pretty good. By cleaning and inspecting the adjusters, I take it you mean to continue to pick and scrape out the cement in there? I would have continued, but that scrubber (thanks Matt) made me take pause! And, as asked earlier about price, it was asked at $25k. The guy was really a great fellow...wanted ME to have the dozer, had honestly represented the machine before I came to view it, settled on 18k...I'm hoping I can get it tip-top and be at/under 21k.
$3k for a new undercarriage! How close are the roller flanges from hitting the pin bosses?
Hey, that's just what I was told elsewhere...! "I've recently bought Korean rails and sprockets for my 450 at about $2300 (excluding bolts and nuts) from my specialty dealer" Does that sound right for aftermarket gear?
Unfortunatley You dont get what you pay for with undercarriages. Simply becuase even the cheapest U/Cs arnt really cheap and down time is a killer if your uisng for production machine Every time we went cheap on rails and scraper chains we regretted it. You have to understand the technology and metallurgy that goes into making them. Alot of times the big guys have a hard time getting them right so going with some off brand is like asking for a kick in the nutts IMHO!
OUCH! My biggest kick in the nuts right now if finances! I hadn't expected to pay this much for a maintenance dozer in the first place. What do you think I'd have to pay for top of the line? Ballpark?
Looking at the bushes and sprockets, I don't think you have much life left there. The problem with this kind of wear is that the distance from bush to bush lengthens as the pins wear internally and then they end up out of pitch with the sprocket. When the bushes wear right through the tooth of the sprocket can actually ride up into the bush and will stay there until it comes out with a bang. Very hard on your final drives. I would have the whole undercarriage assessed by a professional so you can know what is and isn't serviceable. It would be false economy to only replace some parts if others are also unserviceable. You may only need new pins and bushes and sprockets, but it is hard to tell without seeing all the components. One other thing, get the track adjusters reconditioned while the tracks are off as the shaft can get pretty damaged and tear out the seals especially after being fully extended and then running retracted after the new tracks go on. BTW, I have run cheap chains and they did wear faster than the original berco rails, but the cheap idlers lasted better. I still got 5k out of the rails and pinned and bushed @ 2.8k. Baz
Thanks Baz, I was hoping you'd jump in here. I certainly appreciate everybodys comments. Boy, sure was hoping to get some hours out of this before doing the repairs...like winter snow removal!
I got a quote on some Berco rails...$1200 each dry, $1769 SALT. I was told the only difference was the SALT tracks were quieter. Anybody else wanna weigh in on SALT v. Dry? :beatsme I like making noise, so that's not a problem!
Much longer life on the salt rails as opposed to the dry. Your tractor will seem more powerful with the salt rails as there is less internal friction. Also will need adjustment less often. I have owned both on 450g, 450h and 550j and I would never go back to the dry.After saying all this I must admit that my partner has dry chains on a 450G LGP and has had good luck. A lot depends on the amount of use you put your machine to.
Berco is a good brand, but i would definitely go SEALED AND LUBRICATED TRACK RAILS. although John deere has that new coating for the bushing now that is supposed to be the cats meow. its supposed to give the bushing twice the life wich works great I guess if your in an application that has more bushing wear. It wont help much if the rails are gone first. http://http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/parts/sc2.html
Hi ****, been awhile.... Might want to take a look at this too: http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/media/pdf/DKB765.pdf Helps you get a better concept of the parts, and how a track is assembled. I sure would go with SALT chains, if at all possible... does much more than make them quieter. Oh, and congratulations on your dozer purchase... :thumbsup OCR
I would not hesitate on going with the s.a.l.t. chains. Your machine will operate better and everything will last longer. I have a brand new complete undercarriage sitting in my shed waiting to go on my 455C that has std chains. Had I known there is so little difference now in price, I would have gone SALT for sure. (they used to be around double the price here) Do it while you have the chance. Baz
Hey OCR, that's a great link for track info. :scool Baz
OCR! Thank you friend! LONG time indeed! Back when I was doing that project at the lake...that's all it took...now I'm hooked, albeit with a small dozer though! Oh well, it's all I can afford. SALT chains. You guys are killing my wallet! Awesome link, very informative and helpful for this rookie. I doubt I'll ever even put 1000-1500 hours on this machine in my lifetime...still go with the SALT? :beatsme
You guys are killin' me! SALT even for up to 1500 hours projected use? If you guys say it's worth it...even for a shallow pocket guy like me...I surely must consider it more before I pull the trigger on rails. It's like $850-$900 more! I still gotta do fluids and filters!
1500 hours?? If you plan on setting it on fire or hauling it in as scrap after 1500 hours then by all means buy dry rails. Salt rails will help the next guy buy it. He might not have the liquid capital to finance $20k for a dozer and then pay $10k for an undercarriage. I would think it would increase your ability to sell it. Nobody looks at a machine unless its super cheap and says " Sweet! soon as I go for broke and buy this and before i can make a dime with it I have to drop another pile of cash on an undercarriage!"
I get what you are saying for sure. I'm seriously considering SALT, but really have to watch my money...tough decision for me. Actually I am leaning towards SALT right now!
Alrighty...y'all convinced me to go with the SALT. Total with sprockets and hardware is $3705 out the door. How much grease (tubes) are them tensioners gonna take when I reassemble with the new tracks? I'm trying to get me a list together for a one-trip-to-the-mountain run! I got my bars, 1" socket set, 15 ton come-a-long, 20 ton jack, grease gun, air impact for the pad bolts, wrenches, etc. What else?
Take plenty of good hardwood blocks so you can block things up as needed.
Check! Have chainsaw and solid oak already there! (blocks too!) Thanks!
That's good to hear... thanks Baz. You're welcome, ****... and thank you, it's always satisfying when a person can provide a little help. Fingers and toes, ****, fingers and toes... come back with the same amount you went with... OCR...
It helps to have another hefty fellow to give assistance. A front end loader is great to have as well. Good luck!
Still counting 20 with the fingers and toes! :drinkup OK...got her all naked now...finally will be getting time to go up and finish 'er off. One last (hopefully) question...where is the best spot to have the master link positioned for linking the ends together? I'll get the new rails underneath and couple them...where? :beatsme
KY Jim makes some really good points here
Thanks brother. That was a pretty good read! OCR PM'd and said he'd reply when he had a some spare time. I hope he takes me to school! :drinkup I'm usually pretty good at noodling through this stuff, but why should I when I have all you fella's? You guys are great!:usa
First question do you have "salt" or conventional rail. If conventional I found it works best to have it on the sprocket so the two ends are aligned making it easier to drive the pin in place. If salt, I have done it on the front idler or on the sprocket too. A block under the bottom of rail or pad, if you have them on, helps too.
Thanks Greg. New SALT rails, all pads are off. Figured it would be easier to manage everything with the pads off, then after linking it together. I'll get the paint off as I install the pads.
Not much I could add to that, ****... just about covers it all. I had a slightly different set of circumstances, when I did mine. One thing that made a big difference; I had my dozer set atop four, 40 foot long H-beams. Two beams, side by side, and the other two, side by side... that gave me a nice, straight, "elevated bridge" concern, that made it easy to get under the dozer, and a sturdy area for jack stands... also made it handy to lift the machine up and down, with the blade and ripper. I put an entire new undercarriage on mine, so I had to get under it to remove the track rollers, and rock guards. My rails came with the pads already bolted, so I didn't have to fool with that, and... we have an excavator with a hydraulic thumb. I broke the tracks at the sprockets, drove forward until the tracks fell of the front idler, and let them lay on the H-beam. I made a cradle for the rollers, welded it to a hi-lift jack (Handy Man)... and used that to let the old ones down, and lift the new ones up. After every thing was bolted up, I let the dozer down on the old rails, grabbed the new rails with the excavator, slid them on the H-beam right behind the old ones, and backed the dozer onto the new ones. I used the thumb to flip the track over the sprocket at the rear... that way, a bushing engaged a pocket, and the track stayed in place. I then went to the front, hooked a chain on to the track and a bucket tooth, and threaded it under the raised blade, over the idler, and on back to the sprocket. That's just the way I did it, ****... not necessarily the right way, or wrong way... but the H-beams, and excavator were surely a plus. I would recommend bolting the master link, over the sprockets, though. See?... lol BTW... it was a Cat undercarriage... that went under a John Deere... :cool2 I put new rails on our excavator, a while back... and I did remove, and replace the old pads on that job... I can possibly give a few tid-bits on bolting the pads back on, if you want. OCR
OK, gotcha! With all the copy/paste, I got me a book goin' here! :drinkup I like your beam idea! But, it's in the dirt for me, I don't really see any snags, I was unsure about the link location when splicing them together...over the sprocket it shall be! As for the pads, I'll do that last...after removing the paint from the dern contact area. I hope to get this done this weekend...if my helper can make it. Thanks OCR, thank you all...:notworthy
That was just a poor attempt at humor, ****.... As in... "See, not much I could add to that, ****"... from the link that thebaz provided in his post number 47. Because that thread did, just about cover it all... :thumbsup But I did get to say... LOL... I should probably not attempt, "just a poor attempt at humor" ... OCR...
Re: last picture Didn't really see much use for a ripper on a small dozer, however it sure looks handy for jacking up the back end when working on the tracks.
LOL! No, it was MY poor attempt at humor in the reply! Yours WAS funny; mine wasn't! :drinkup Bottom line...YOU ALL RULE when it come to brass tacks! Glad y'all talked me into the SALT tracks! Man, they are QUIET! I couldn't believe it when I took her on a test ride! Beers for everybody...:drinkup:drinkup:drinkup It all went smooth...even cleaned up those nasty sprockets! Sure was nice when the first link came together. I used the front end loader to get the tracks positioned under the front and the back, then curled the front part of the chain over the roller and pulled the chain backwards over it until it could bite the sprocket. After it had a bite, I simple added a little bit of reverse to take the slack. Thank you one and all!
Well done ****, She looks like a real top piece of gear now. Go push some dirt:thumbsup Good luck. Baz
Yup, Baz said it all, can't add a thing... :notworthy Oh, wait ......... Well, don't see any blood.... Not even a little pinch???... lol OCR...
LOL! The worst annoyance was from the leftover residue of the paint remover used to get the paint off the rails!
Hi Folks. Just found this site tonight, what a fantastic souce of information. I purchased my fist dozer last week and picked it up today. JD450G ser.# TO450GF780188 certificate of origin dated Oct 1991 but is called a 92 model. Total hours 1983 did have a six way blade but it did not come with the purchase. It was owned by the State of Georgia Forrestry Commision and I believe very well maintainted. Averaged 100 hrs per year and I am told that they change the oil every six months regardless of hours. Full cage and sweeps, on hydraulic line on rear.(well two but I assume a pressure and return) The reason for purchase is to use on the farm (200 acres flat sandy) where I am constructing a 4000' x 250' grass landing strip. And I like big toys. From what I can tell it is in very good condition, no hydraulic leaks at all, starts and runs very well although it is the first one I have driven. Tonight I had to teach myself how to drive it, off a trailer is not the best place to learn. Only fault I can find is the sprocket looks very worn on the landing gear. From the information I have learned on this site I will do a better evaluation of the tracks when daylight returns in the morning. I am also looking for a blade and root rake if anyone has any leads. Thanks again and what a great site. Ken Andrew [email protected]
****, I have seen very few "alligator style" master links on Deere machines (especially OEM tracks). Believe you will have a press apart master link set-up. As far as the control valve goes, the seal for the spools leak, top and bottom. The valve can be resealed in machine, but I always found it faster to remove valve and reseal on back of my service truck. By pulling vacuum on tank and capping hoses won't even loose much oil.
Ken: where did I see that machine for sale, was it Ebay? I noticed it because 1) it didn't have a blade and 2) it had the full forestry package, I believe. Nice looking machine. Take the side screens off the operator's platform while you are doing dirt work until you get good at it; you can see a lot better what you are doing. Eventually you will run by feel mostly, but for now you need to go slow and learn to hold a grade. But DONT get in the woods without them, unless you like to get slapped by a switch on your cold ear. Or worse. You will enjoy your airstrip. Why so wide? I used to put my Bonanza on our farm strip pretty regularly; it was only 40' wide. No room for error though. 2600' long and I usually only used half the length. We quit maintaining it when we quit farming and planted the whole place in pine trees. If they keep going up on hangar rent at the city airport, I probably ought to build another one near my home. But then you can't land at night or in bad weather. Sorry to get this off topic; not sure how many airplane people we got on here. Myself, I like airplanes AND equipment AND dump trucks and wish I had more work for all of them.
Hi ETMF 58 White The dozer came from a State of Georgia sale, also it was on ebay. the runway itself will be 100' wide but the area of grass and cut through the trees will be 250' for safety. the approach is not great so the 4000' is needed. I am turbocharged but others on Georgia hot days will be naturally asperated. So for gross weight on a hot day the longer the better. I had trouble posting on here tonight,, would not let me it under the old name of KenAndrew so now I am ksandrew. I have landed at great places in Alaska but still like plenty of room. Have a lot to learn. Ken Andrew