I have a CAT D-6c and a 941b loader and I want to do a deep cleaning flush on the cooling system. Has anyone tried using vinegar and if so what ratio of water to vinegar and how long did you leave it in,did you run it long or just circulate it and then let it sit?
My personal opinion is, if it is rusty flush it with clear water until the junk is out. If it is contaminated with oil or something then it will need dishwasher soap and a good flush afterward. Not a fan of chemical cleaner because of the difficulty getting it all out. Plus one time I did that and the radiator sprang 12 leaks, the dirt was all that was holding it together.
I use muriatic acid and water with thermostats removed. 2qts in a five gallon bucket is a good ratio. Learned that almost 50 years ago working in a radiator shop. If you have weak spots such as rusty core plugs or marginal radiator core, it could leak after this mixture is drained, rinsed with clean water, and then topped up with coolant of choice. I let the engine run an hour to come up to temp and stabilize, the allow to self cool to about 150 degrees, then drain, rinse, and refill.
You need to be real careful using Muriatic (Hydrochloric) acid in cooling systems. Muriatic acid attacks every metal, as well as the rust. About 3% solution is the maximum you want to go - and don't leave it to soak! I don't believe Vinegar is strong enough to remove heavy corrosion in a cooling system. I use Citric acid. About 5% to 10% solution, depending on the level of corrosion. It's safe (it's a food preservative, added to a vast number of foods, including bread), no need to worry about acid burns as with Muriatic acid, no need to worry about splashes etching everything the splashes land on, and no need to worry about kids finding it, and playing with it. And no chlorine fumes, as you get with Muriatic acid. Citric acid can be left in the cooling system overnight, and even for a couple of days if necessary. It simply dissolves rust, and doesn't badly etch the base metal, as Muriatic does. It doesn't eat copper or aluminium and doesn't adversely affect hoses. It does help to pressure-wash the cooling system once you've emptied the Citric acid out. For heavy black scale though, you would need a dose of Muriatic acid to clean that stuff out. FWIW, Cat claimed many years ago that a 1/16" coating of scale on a liner or block will prevent 40% of the engine heat from escaping. Scale is the best insulation material since Asbestos!
I've been working on an old air compressor that was used in a rental fleet for a lot of years. The cooling system is a mess with a lot of rust and sludge contained. I pulled the radiator, and sent it in having the bottom tank removed and the core "rodded" clean as it was partially plugged, and then pressure tested to 50psi. All was found to be good after this service. I've now added the muratic solution in the aforementioned ratio through the cooling system four times and this is the drain water just yesterday afternoon: That sample was pulled as the muratic solution was draining. A final rinse was ran through the engine allowing to warm, then drained also. I'm going to do the same once again later today until the water is much clearer and then will add a 50/50 mix of coolant. The operating temperature of the engine has dropped at least 15 degrees from prior.
And if another Muratic acid treatment doesn't work, I'm going to mix up a solution of caustic soda, (sodium hydroxide) and run it for a short bit. I still use caustic in my aqueous parts washer cabinet for ferrous iron and steel parts. I pump this clear when washing anything non ferrous however as the caustic solution is not the most friendly to aluminum parts and I have other cleaner for that duty.
The problem with muratic acid is that it is hydrogen chloride. The chloride ion is what corrodes the metals over time. Same process as salt (sodium chloride) on metals. In my view, it's better not to introduce it in the first place. Vinegar and citric acid have only hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon, so no chloride in the first place. For final rinse, I like to run a hose in the engine with clear water somewhere, usually the radiator fill, and let it pump the water out as fast as it can, such as removing a heater hose, until it runs clear. Finding the balance point of water in = water out. It's a pain but worth it. All this can be avoided by just draining and refilling with fresh coolant every 5 years or so.
You're right but some tasks require extreme measures to correct. Here is the same water drain water this morning: This is the ground around the compressor and again this is after the fourth flush and the first with the compressor sitting where it is: Not to dispute but I'm going to keep on the same track with Muratic acid as I know it works. I dump this mixture in, start the engine warming to 180 degrees or stabilization temperature, allow the engine to run and dwell for 30 minutes, then drain and refill with fresh water. I then run the engine again for another 1/2 hour before draining yet again. Once the drain water runs clear (and hasn't yet) I'll refill with a 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol and distilled water. I have a drain port and ball valve on the block but so far each time I remove the pipe plug in the bottom of the lower radiator tank, the discharge is "chunky", so keep draining there. The first three drains were into buckets and you see the fourth in the photo. I too would like to be as gentle as possible but sometimes extreme measures are called for. I'd rather a piece of equipment fail in my driveway rather than a jobsite so even if the engine were leak being corroded through, I'd install another engine before it goes back out. Regardless, I cannot have it overheating on a jobsite when it's depended upon which is what started this dilemma on a 96 degree day with pretty close to matching humidity, (92%) doing this:
Drain water after 5th cycle of Muratic acid wash: After the water was poured off, this is the "gunk" in the bottom of the cup and what I called "chunky" in a previous post. This is obviously corrosion of the engine metals so the engine cooling system has been neglected a long time. After this I mixed up a five gallon bucket of caustic soda, (sodium hydroxide) to a value of 13 on the litmus strips, added this to the cooling system and blocked off the radiator cooling air flow with cardboard. I let this run slowly allowing more air across the radiator core modulating the engine temperature between 180, and 190 degrees the best I could over an hour engine run time. I had left my phone on the charger at home so no photos, but the draining of this batch was absolutely black in color. A fresh water rinse and drain was also very dark. Another rinse was perfectly clear. Another run for five minutes with clear water and it drains almost 100% clear. I did notice a core plug, (freeze plug, frost plug) etc. leaking just above, and to the front of the starter. There are three in that area and all are easy to replace so that will be tomorrow or the next day if I can get them locally. This is a photo of the control panel for the engine and you can see the engine temperature is at about 150 degrees. It is currently 83 degrees outside so a considerable difference in operating temperature from where I started. Since Detroit two stokers have gotten so much quieter during operation in my old age, I'm looking to replace this B427 Continental gasoline engine as just too hard to get parts for on short order. The 4-53 Detroit was the diesel option for this series of compressor.
I've seen some comments on youtube videos about using muriatic to clean rust. Some say it goes into the cast iron pores and stays. My opinion is no, since I thought it was used in the steel / iron industry for cleaning the metal. 1693TA, so what is a good ratio to use to clean individual parts, not a cooling system?
I use a 1/3 muratic acid 2/3 water solution to clean fuel and hydraulic tanks a lot. Let sit overnight then drain and flush with water. Use a solvent sprayer to fog the inside of tank to disperse water and keep from rusting until tank gets filled again.
Muratic acid readily breaks down and washes away. Stuck in pores; I've never heard of that but have always double rinsed to ensure it's neutralized. It's used regularly to balance the ph level in swimming pools for instance. I really don't use it hardly at all except for the occasional cooling system cleanse, and etching concrete just before painting to ensure adhesion. Back in the 70's we used to dump it into a spray gun and spray a paint stripped car down till it was running to dissolve any "flash" rusting, wipe dry and blow out the seams well. Then off to whatever process was next. I still like and use caustic soda for iron, or ferrous parts, and a high alkaline cleaner for non ferrous or plastic parts. Both are effective on grease with caustic being very aggressive on rust removal. When the washing temperature is elevated, both work very well in their respective tasks. However to degrease parts I still have an old agitated "Graymills" solvent based parts washer which I keep mineral spirits in. 50 gallon of it and it lasts a good long while. This saves on the heated parts washer solvent costs by removing the grease. Large parts get the steam cleaner treatment.
Where to get the soda ? 1455IH the ratio? The muratic is usually not a very high concentration as sold. I forget what the label says for %. So are you using that % in your calculation?
Muratic acid sold over the counter is just over 30% concentration and it's all I use. Just purchased two gallons yesterday for this task.
My pickup rad had alot of calcium build up. I capped off the rad and used alot of muradaic acid in it then flushed it good. I was afraid to run it through the system but the rad is very clean.
For small tanks I just go to the local hardware store and buy the over the counter gallon jugs. For a big tank I usually get a larger container from NuWay. Never really paid much attention to the dilution but I am guessing it's all the 30%
Where to get the caustc soda?
Caustic soda by it's more consumer mainstream name is "Lye" and available at most any home center or industrial supplier. It can be purchased online easy enough by the 50# sacks, or 1# packages. Ebay has vendors also. The key is to purchase "Litmus" strips to dip in your mixture to keep tabs on concentration, or effectiveness. Hardness, or softness of water has great bearing upon the needed concentration of chemical so the "Litmus Test" is the best way to know what is correct. Don't run caustic soda through a cooling system with aluminum parts meaning anything aluminum at all. The caustic is very detrimental to them and especially thin walled items such as a heater, or radiator core. Muratic acid, (in my experience) does not bother these items in the amounts I have used. I popped a compromised core plug from my engine this morning and it is very corroded. This allowed me to measure the hole and order replacements. I installed a rubber expanding stopper, (plumbing item) filled the cooling system with water, and pressurized the cooling system to 20psi with no further leaks noted. I'm excited to have this one seemingly wrapped as the engine was consistently running right at 190 degrees with the compressor section declutched from the engine. When clutched in, about 35 minutes and she was shutting down from overtemp of about 215 degrees, (indicated). I've not had the compressor section engaged during the cleaning process but I've not been able to get the engine over 155 degrees where it was a consistent 190+ prior so indications look good so far.
Replacement core plugs arrived today but I didn't install them; yet. That may be tomorrow, or Friday s I've other things to do. A friend has the proper driver set I'll borrow to install with. However the cooling system of the engine has much less buildup in it. Still very bad in comparison to new, but hopefully will be functional and not overheat till I find a diesel replacement engine.
Installed new frost plugs and flushed cooling system with clear water once again. Drained and installed 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol and distilled water, started engine and allowed to run up to operating temperature. Then shut engine off, allowed to cool and topped up the expansion tank. Later yesterday afternoon I ran over and blasted a KW frame clean over the course of 4.5 hours and engine temp never elevated above 190 degrees. Outside temp was 89 degrees and 87% relative humidity so I am quite pleased with the outcome.
1693TA appreciate the info on radiator/system clean... So, how soon after a flush/refill should the Ph of the coolant be checked/adjusted?? I’m still learning about diesels and their cooling systems and if the Ph goes south then pitting can occur to the cylinder liners. Local dump truck owner/operator swears that was the demise of his beloved powerhouse motor. Never knew such a situation can/could occur... my takeaway was- its like a tire with a flat spot, if/when it locks up again, it will wear more on the existing flat spot. So once the electrolysis starts, it will “build” on the pitting and keep going until it makes a hole??? Of course I’m still scratching my head over all the antifreeze “options” at parts store!?! Let alone you attempt to mix various types (serious hand slap there!!) lastly- thanks for the pics too - I was shocked to “see” the amount of crap (and color!) you got out of that machine!!
Thanks. The coolant passages are now a dark gray to black color as was easily seen viewing through the open core plug holes. There is virtually nothing loose a finger swipe could pick up so pretty clean. If purchasing a commercial coolant look for a "Low Silicate" formulation as these are blended for heavy duty diesels and keep an eye on the ph level with "Litmus" strips where are a treated paper strip you dip into the coolant, and compare the color on the paper to a reference chart that will be supplied with them. I change coolant every five years maximum myself and sooner if a hard working engine. I used to purchase a coolant marketed as "Fleet Charge" from my heavy truck parts supplier but I hear the Caterpillar branded coolant is very good also.
One of the replaced frost plugs. This is not the one that was leaking but a good representation: Picked up three additional frost plugs yesterday from an automotive machine shop so will punch the other two in and have a spare. They are "Dorman", and of course made in China:
If any one needs plugs i have 3 or 4 five gallon buckets full i will sell cheap.
Drained the system down again and popped the last two new frost plugs into the block. Figuring what the hell I'll run another flush through the machine as I still had about 10 gallons premixed, this is what I have with another hour run time on the engine at 1500rpm: Little lower than the last time but it is 72 degrees this morning and a light drizzle: This is the drain water this morning so still cleaning to be had:
One more flush and here are the results. 1st photo is balancing the ph level of the driveway by draining the cooling system prior to refilling with fresh water: Here a sample after about five minutes run time: After another drain cycle, I inserted the garden hose into the radiator and balanced the incoming flow with the ball valve opening in the lowest engine coolant passage. The next photo is after another five minutes run time: Another five minutes and this is what it is: Crystal clear at this point. I then fully drained the system, and installed a 50/50 mix of fresh recycled coolant, (I have the purification equipment) and then blocked the radiator off completely with a piece of plywood. Allowing the engine to run up to 195 degrees, the plywood was removed and the engine coolant rapidly decayed to 145 degrees indicated. No leaks, drips, nor errors so calling this one good.
Thanks for following and remember this was a prudent case as the engine was overheating on jobsites stalling production. Several backflushings and such had proven null. I don't normally go to the extreme in this thread and for normal maintenance routines there are more "gentle" processes available. This one come out very well, but there was little other alternative without great expense and labor. I started the compressor earlier this morning and it takes much longer to come up to operating temperature now than prior to the flushing. I will need to install a new thermostat to speed the heating up.
what is the active ingredient in Blue Devil radiator flush?
The compressor continues to operate well within the temperature spectrum it should. Though I didn't use it to complete this job, and citing I had posted photos earlier of the job in process, here are some completed photos: Start of project: Blasted clean: Painted with 40% gloss, (matte) finish: Completed job: I don't normally do the jobs complete such as this but I'm friends with the HOA representatives and they wanted a good job that will last. The sign was stripped, blasted clean as were the letters and perimeter moulding, double coat epoxy primed, all corrosion pitting repaired and all new stainless retention hardware fitted. This is an automotive acrylic urethane topcoat which I mixed from my bank. Everything was then bolted back into place with the penetration holes sealed using rope caulk prior to the fasteners penetrating the face, and the same on the rear side before the fasteners were tightened. The stone pillars were also lightly abraded to remove airborne dirt from over the years. Not bad for a 1962 build air compressor. With the cooling issue rectified I'll continue to keep it in service.
The neighboring housing development has approved my blasting all of their respective street signs thanks to this job being so prominent in display on a heavily traveled roadway. The development is of a western theme and these signs are cast iron with a horse and carriage motif along with the name. Kind of high dollar to have produced I would assume. They approached me and I just kinda gave a "ballpark" figure and they responded with wanting the "same" quality put into this job and were willing to pay for it. I guess they were waiting for this entrance signs completion to approach me. Nice when a job sells itself.
So far I've blasted 36 street signs in this housing development. Compressor is operating fine and not overheating at all. That is nice to have behind me. The KW frame I blasted clean gave no problems with the compressor. Have a bare Mack frame to blast clean next week also. Found a gent who has almost everything needed for an engine rebuild on the Continental B-427 engine on hand. I have some piston slap in #6 cylinder so going to go through it over the winter months. A bit over 5300 hours on the original engine so no complaints. Other than a head gasket it's never been apart so all should be standard sizes. I've thought hard about converting to diesel, but this compressor is to eventually be my backup replaced by a diesel unit in front line use so going to remain gasoline powered. Looking hard at "Sullair" as the front line unit.
I have a old compressor . I got it for scrap but they guy that had it used it until the water pump went out he removed it and i think i hauled the pump off with a load of stuff before i got the compressor. I was thinking i would rig some kind of a pump up on it some day but i was looking at it and found the exhaust had got uncovered and now its stuck. Now i dont know if i should scrap it or keep it and repower it some day but i wonder what will happen to the screw setting for several years till i have time for it ?
They are usually fine as completely separate from the engine and tend to have "cling oil" adhering to the air screws themselves. However this has limitations also. What brand of compressor, and what engine? Most anything can be repowered but making it happen in space constaints and governing can be a challenge.
Well I've blasted almost 236 hours on this air compressor since the last posting and it continues to serve quite well. Still haven't done anything to the engine other than change the coolant again but it doesn't leak or use any and with the muratic acid treatment given earlier, no longer runs elevated in temperature during work. I am planning to repower this compressor as mentioned earlier but not with a Detroit Diesel as earlier anticipated. Probably going to stay with gasoline as I don't have a diesel with a #2 flywheel housing on it. I do have an old Red Diamond 406 engine that runs very well in my old crane truck and the crane is going to be placed onto another chassis so this engine will most likely repower the compressor some day.
I was scanning on ebay and just for chits and grins typed in B427 Continental engine to see if any parts availability. Low and behold an NOS Delco-Remy distributor shows up complete with the points, condenser, rotor and cap. I made that purchase as the distributor shaft bearings in my engine are worn with a little side to side wear. Also has a few hundred hours on the ignition parts. Maybe this will ensure the idle continues to be smooth a bit longer while the engine remains in service. We still have a shop half way local that will rebuild and recurve distributors but it would be more expense than this surplus one cost to acquire. I believe my original is a Prestolite unit but Delco-Remy was also a supplier to Continental Motors and will be a direct fit.
You should post some pictures of the "Western Themed Signs" you cleaned and refinished.
I had planned to do just that but was asked by the HOA to not do so. I believe they are, or were forming some type of website or something to that degree and didn't want anything publicized at that time? I have not been back to the area but do need to check on the product as I usually keep tabs on such work performed. The "Hunter's Ridge" sign posted earlier looks just as good now as when initially done. They have not moved on dusk to dawn lighting as earlier anticipated however. I don't know why but I'm told the HOA is very pleased with the work so far.
Is that old Worthington a Blue Brute?
yes it is. 250cfm @125psi constant.
@OzDozer when you say 5 to 10% citric acid, i only find it as a powder, at least searching quickly. is that 5 to 10% by weight. do powders have different strengths? sounds like citric acid is modestly more acidic than vinegar, but not enough to eat the aluminum itself appreciably?I have used muriatic acid on steel of all kinds for years but I think some moderation with thin alumium radiator and heater cores is probably smart. also, i've seen people who recommend double approach. first a prestone brand cleaner because it is alkaline and better at removing sludge (or, as alternative to brand name, dishwasher detergent flush–anyone have the recipe for that. again, i'm old school, got powdered dishwasher detergent.) And second an acid flush for scale. current job focused on heater core which i will isolate and flush heated fluid with a pump. i'm thinking maybe 12 hours constant circ each fluid is more than equivalent to running a cleaner in the whole cooling system for a day? don't keep those smart remarks to yourselves, boys
For an older system I would not recommend any sort of chemical flush. Have seen too many times where the chemicals eat out seals and thin/fatigued metals. I would bet that not long after a chemical flush you water pump shaft seal starts leaking or a tube in an oil cooler or radiator/heater core starts seeping. I don't have an exact method to it but I flush cooling systems with powdered dish detergent. If it is an automotive sized system I will use about 1/2 a small box slowly poured in while filling with water. For a piece of equipment that holds 10-15 gallons a full small box. It has to be detergent for a dishwasher though. Regular dish soap foams up too much.
All the good powdered dishwashing detergents were finally banned in 2023. There is still a limited supply of pre-ban Cascade Fyer Boil Out with Sodium tripolyphosphate (STPP)available, but it’s stupid expensive. I haven’t had luck finding a replacement or even finding STPP. TSP from Home Depot is different. Doesn’t work the same as STPP. T$ is fixing our toilets that don’t flush and our shower heads that don’t wash, maybe he will make dish detergent great again? We can’t let the globalists win. I’m going to make a backyard tire fire today to honor Greta (How Dare You!) Thornbug. I have a 11r24.5 That needs sacrificing and returned back to Gaia earth.
I always have the same moto with waste oil. Drain it out on the ground so it can start going back to where it came from. On the other hand waste oil heats my shop and house in the winter so I try to get every drop in the bucket