Just about ready to have a new skin rolled for my D6c blade. I'm planning on having a 5/16" plate rolled (two 5' sections) with a slightly larger radius than the blade so that I can flex it into position for welding. I figured it would be a lot easier to do that rather than try to roll it to a perfect fit and risk getting it curved a little too much. My question is, how much flatter should I roll the skin? I was thinking of leaving it so there was about an inch gap in the center and tack the bottom edge. Using chains around the blade and 3 or 4 hyd. jacks I'd flex the skin into place and weld it down. Is that too much gap or not enough? Not sure how hard it will be to flex 5/16" AR400 plate about 5' wide.
If it were mine I would "over roll" it slightly (tighter radius) & then start at the bottom with the tacking, then dog the separation down at the top last. That way you can do it all with dogging lugs & wedges & a sledge. It is harder to push the middle in with both ends touching, in my opinion. Should have a few plug welds in the middle too.
Another vote for get it curved a hair too much and then pull it into place using dogs and wedges - that's the way I'd go. Definitely plug welds in the middle. There should be nothing more than 18-24" in any given direction from a particular location that is not welded to the blade structure. That gives you a way to plan the location of the plug welds. Don't make them too small either, 2" diameter should be a minimum, 3" would be better.
Yair , , , . As mentioned on other reskinning threads it is best to over bend them slightly. I never had the luxury of rolled plate, I used to curve them between a couple of railroad ties with down pressure from the blade. I have been known to get it well tacked on the bottom and push into place with an offsider holding a short section of railroad tie up to a decent tree or stump. As well as conventional dogs and wedges as mentioned by[BNige[/B] you can also help pull them in with bolts or pieces of all thread welded to the blade and projecting though the plug weld holes. It's a big mistake (in my experience) to under bend them tight top and bottom and shy in the centre . . . roll the pieces on like a measuring tape. Cheers.
Have to agree with all so far, is easier to flatten back out than try to roll in. We often used roll sheet pipe cut lengthwise to replace wear plates on old blades years ago. Hard crap to move and tended to spring back but once in place a bugger for use!
This is what we use to pull things into place, tack the dog to the base mat'l, then drive the wedge in to pull the high plate down into place. We have a press brake & can bend 5/16" 400 AR plate to a max of 45 deg with a 4" bottom die, so if it will bend in a brake press, it will roll ok, just take more force & it will spring back some too.
You got fancy tools, I get stuck with pieces of scrap iron!!
Here is our press brake which has an interesting story behind it. We are from Ontario & it is my understanding that this machine was mfg in Mt Carmel Ill & then spent most of its life in the John Deer wagon works plant in Moline Ill, then it was shipped up to a local JD plant 15 minutes from our place & when they were doing some retooling around 15 years ago it came up for sale & we bid on it & purchased it from JD. It cost us as much to move it & set it up as it did to buy it. It is an old slow dinosaur but it does a lot of heavy bending for us & is quite reliable. It required a special footing & the front apron extends down about 42" into a pit in the floor.
Sweet!
I guess I was misinformed....thought sure I'd read somewhere that you should leave it a little under bent. The more I got into this the more I kept cutting off.....From the previous skin overlay, scabbed on plates, and wear on the original skin it looks like it's been worn out at least three times. I ended up cutting it all off down to the supporting frame. Was a ton of torching & grinding but at least now I know what I've got. Because the corners had been worn through the lower part of the frame was packed with dirt and some water. Took (5) 3 gallon buckets of dirt out of it....packed almost like shale. In the thread I posted a week or so ago someone commented that they thought the factory started with the skin and built if from there. From the way it was welded I think that has to be correct. There are a couple of places that were welded inside that couldn't have been done any other way. I'll be able to get lots of weld on the skin.....across the bottom & top, two full length welds from the back where it's open, both ends, one more line of plug welds across the face, and some welds from the back side at each bottom corner. I'll also make new angled pieces to fit at each end. Just for reference, the original skin measures .325" thick (from a piece under the angled corners where it wasn't exposed to wear) and the inside radius of the skin is 30". Called today and I can get a 5/16" x 5' x 10' sheet of AR400 which should be just enough to make everything. A local shop that builds tanker trailers will roll it for around $300. The plan is to cut off about a 20" strip off the end of the sheet to use for the corner angles, then have them roll the remainder end-wise. That way I can cut it in two and have enough skin. Don't have pics handy right now, but when I get more done I'll post them.
Also, can anyone recommend a technique for building up the outer vertical edge of the blade just above the corner bits? The wear there isn't terrible but could use some extra metal. Should I just mig weld to build it up and maybe add a top coat of hard surface? Never welded hard surfacing before.
If you are referring to the outside edges on the end of the blade, on ours we added some heavy flat bar plates, 3/4" x 10" I think it may have been. We just used mild steel there too. Adding a plate is much easier than the many hours it would take to do build up work with weld & will last us a long time. If they were ever to wear thin, we would gouge them off & add another plate in their place.
d6c10k.. fwiw.. I had mine rolled to the exact curve. I cut a good template out of a slab of plastic I had laying in the shop, and when I got it on it fit exactly on the button. It was easy to push against the blade from the front and I had no problem spotting it in about twenty or so places all around the blade. I would not want to have to try to get it to fit if it was bent wrong. just my experience recently.
ok, I think I finally figure out the picture attachment..
For recycled wear plates, I've been using those scraps from snow plow cutting edges, 5/8 thick and they wear really well in dirt, I don't know the compositioin but know it'll fracture if its not supported over a longer span. It does weld nice though.
I would bend as close as possible with any error on the too much side. As I said before you can make a template from heavy cardboard.
Reskinned a plow, had them add extra curve, tack welded the bottom then applied lots of clamps to bend the top to position, welded my way up to the top.
Finally getting my re-skin job just about done. Just need to cut out the corner pieces and weld them in. I made up a template out of plywood for fit but I'm not sure how wide the corner insert was originally. The template is about 8" inboard of the end plate.....seems a little wide but not sure if it makes any difference. Not a big deal to make another template if I need to. Anyone have a 6S blade they can put a tape measure on to see if I'm in the ballpark? When I get it finished up I'll post some pics of how it went.....was quite a bit of work but I think it's turning out pretty good. I was fortunate there is a company nearby that could roll the 3/8" AR400 plate for me. They roll 7/16" 100 ksi plate all the time and can roll 12' wide!
I think mine are around 8" at the widest. I will measure in the morning & get back to you. See my file picture that I had. Blade reskin looks good so far. BTW, did you remove all of the old skin, or end up going over top of it?
I ended up removing all the old skin. Once I got the top skin off the original skin underneath had a large hole already gone and was worn quite thin. By the looks of the wear, old patches and plating, I think the blade has been worn out three times. After tons of torching & grinding it's all cleaned up (I really need a plasma cutter) Lower outside corners need some attention.... Welded up outside edges and added strips of grouser bar to build up the edges
Added a support under the rake brackets while I had it open. New skin rolled....started with a 3/8 x 5 x 10' sheet of AR400. I cut a foot off the end to save for the corner inserts and then took it to be rolled. After rolling I cut it in two pieces to make the skin. Used chains & hydraulic jacks to push the skin into place for welding. Ended up being a little under curved but wasn't hard to flex into place. The blade framework curve didn't quite match end to end either. Unbolted the brace arms and flipped the blade forward to make it easier to weld the back side
Welded out the skin (still needs corner inserts) Ground off face welds and put cutting edges on. The center sections weren't worn out but were cracked through the bolt holes in several places. Not sure if they were over tightened or what the cause was.
Very nice job!!!!!!
Nice looking work there D610K! My angled corner crescent shaped piece is about 9" at the widest.
Nice work and pictures! I have been operating dozers for 45 years and I think this is the first time I have seen the inside of a blade...
Thanks, that's pretty close to the size of my template. I guess all it's supposed to do is help roll dirt to the center and keep it from packing in the corner.
I would have used some balled up newspapers, a couple cans of foam, a little tiger hair, a spray bomb, good for the auction lol. No that is a professional looking job. Obviously not your first time working with steel
Nice. What did the AR plate cost?
The 3/8 plate was about $630.... Local company charged $250 to roll it.
that looks first class! mine looked just about as bad as yours when I got all the scabs off.
Awesome welds, wish my old arse could set them as pretty!
Don't look too close....some aren't so good looking. I just bought a new welder and it's taking me a bit to get used to it.
What make/model is the welder?
I took a chance on an Everlast 275P...import brand http://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/mig/power-i-mig-275p They also make a 250 amp MIG/Tig/Stick but the Tig is DC only. I was wanting a pulse mig / stick machine but the nearest thing I could find in a domestic machine was a Linclon Powermig 350MP at twice the price. Really nice machine. http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K2403-2(LincolnElectric) Couldn't bring myself to drop $4000+ so I took a chance on the Everlast. Figured I could put the other $2000 toward a plasma cutter which I could really use.
Beautiful job on the blade! I've had an Everlast 200 amp Stick/TIG for almost a year. The times I've used it, it's worked great. I like the 110/220 input option. (Have a heavy, old Miller transformer stick machine and Hobart MIG about same vintage- both still running strong) I know you said you're still getting used to the welder but, are you happy with it so far? DB
I bought this Millermatic 252 about 3 years ago & used it for doing the rebuild on my old 941 loader bucket last year, which involved quite a bit of welding, setting it up for .045 flux core wire on that project, which it handled ok. Have it running on a 30 Amp breaker & when running the flux core it popped the breaker a few times. I think the cost was about $2,800 for it when I bought it. I am happy with it overall.
Seems ok so far. I'm using .035 wire and it came with 1mm tips....about .004 loose. They didn't last long but I bought some 0.9mm tips, which are same as .035. Experimented some with spray arc welding (using 90/8/2% argon/CO2/Ox gas)....man you can really lay down some weld fast that way....smooth bead without ripples and no spatter. I need a lot of practice vertical uphill welding (short circuit mig)....vertical down isn't hard but you don't get as good of penetration. One of the things I like is it has a 9-memory function to store settings you like....once I get it dialed I can save & recall the settings. It will take me a while to learn how to set the "pulse" function too but I think it will be useful. Haven't stick welded in more than 20 years but sometimes it's needed if you're outside the shop in the wind. I've been using an old Miller 250 of my brothers.....he bought it new and hated it for years. It will weld ok but has always had a HORRIBLE spatter problem. Could never find out if there was something wrong with it or what. He bought a new Miller 252 and likes it fine.
Lovely 252 metalman, I am still hammering away with stick, just bought a 240V/480V Miller CST 280, AWESOME small package and maybe Not worth the coin but delivers great! Already had a .030 gas shielded Miller 210, gave just over $2000 for it but got aluminum kit with it and cart and tank. Both are great welders, have a Thermalarc Predator for field work, 20hp Honda and three phase available generator, have had it 17 years now.
Nice. My Hobart is only a 209 amp machine. Just starting to play with .035 innershield. I've been watching everyone's bucket rebuilds- may try it myself this summer. Have a good weekend. DB
BTW that recommended amp breaker rating for your 252 is a minimum 50a. Can get away with a thirty for awhile but 50 would eliminate and cure a lot of ails! My 210 is on a 50a and the 280 uses the same circuits.
After the loader bucket project was completed I had the 30 amp 2 pole breaker switched out for a 40, so I think I will be ok with the 40. I already had heavier wire in the EMT conduit feeding the plug, so did not have to change that out. Think it was #8 if I remember correctly. It is not often that I weld as heavy as I did on that project.
40 will do awhile, may still pop it on long duration hard amp welds but will do better than the 30a. I opted to go 6ga wire and 50 amp service to the plug ins, technically in the US under NFPA rules that is a minimum wire size for less then 50' runs. In the olden days 8ga on a 50a was plenty, I think overkill is the new normal for electrical work. 8 is fine for 40a.
Chart as per current code: http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/nec ampacities.pdf I use THHN conductor in my services, the individual wire with no sheath as opposed to 120 or 240v wire in sheath(romex) This raises the available amps per temperature variable for smaller wire gauge.
We are going to need to reskin the blade on my 6N. Figured I'd post here first, see what opinions are on starting a new thread, or just adding to this one?
Personally would start New.
When I saw 5/16 thick material for a blade I'm thinking that is like paper thin. I was thinking a D6 would need 1/2 inch? I guess I've seen too many dented blade skins. If its not facing over an existing skin then a sharp rock could poke holes in 5/16 easy, saying nothing about the abrasive wear, then a ton of hard bar needed over the skin, minds well go thick in the beginning.
Sanders metal and fab in north Fargo have AR plate. they can shape it to fit. We did 2 buckets last winter. Sanders made the correct curve from our pattern. well worth it.
Funny this popped up. Our 6R is getting a new skin as well