I bought a 2014 Caterpillar 299d xhp in Nebraska a few months ago. It has about 2100 hours on it now. I am confused as to which DEO I am supposed to use. I see both 10w30 and 15w40 available but parts.cat doesn't say which I should use. 1. When the fuel gauge says 3/8 of a tank it is empty. 2. If I top the hydraulic oil off so that it is in the green on the gauge an O-ring on the hydraulic line of the right side final drive will fail sometime in the next couple hours. I probably replaced it 6x before I realized it always happened after I added oil to the hydraulic system. Is this common or unique to my machine?
1. The engine oil depends on your ambient temperature. 2. Faulty sender maybe? Here's where it is if you want to mess with it, but now that you know that 3/8 = empty, you know when it's empty. 3. Bit of a mystery here. Can you show a photo of the hose/O ring?
I'm pretty sure it is the inflow line on final drive. There are 2 fittings together. 1 is an adjustable 45 degree elbow that you tighten down after rotating correctly for alignment. I can take a picture farther back on Monday or circle on a schematic if you have one.
That's a standard ORFS fitting. If you use the correct O ring and tighten the fitting to ~the correct torque, it shouldn't leak. The only thing I can suggest is that correlation doesn't always equal causation. Is the hose it connects to aftermarket or OEM? Oh, and you should try to avoid getting big lumps of **** like that one in your hydraulic system if you want to avoid expensive repairs in future.
Gee I didn't know that. Why do you think I took that picture? It was to see if there was any gunk in there since it's impossible to get your head in there. If you would like to lose a bet you can come torque that fitting and we will fill it up with hydraulic fluid and watch it fail again.
I am relatively new to skid steers but I grew up on a farm working with hydraulics and managed to solve enough problems to get a mechanical engineering degree from Kansas state. If caterpillar can't figure out how to make a fuel gauge that says E when empty could they also not know how to make a hydraulic gauge? Is it possible to manually measure the oil in the hydraulic tank? The pins that hold the tracks on have about a 1/4" of slop in them. I need to fix but I'm not sure how yet. I think they may contribute to O ring fitting problem as they may ratchet the fitting loose as they slide back and forth. I imagine that it is a combination of factors causing it to fail buy it is not my imagination. I can run the machine for 2 weeks then add hydraulic fluid and that o ring will fail that day.
The only aftermarket thing on the machine is the a/c compressor because you can buy the exact same compressor for 1/3 cats price. Only difference is adding a ground wire to aftermarket one.
I was a little incensed at the
I was a little incensed at the correlation causation comment so I verified what I suspected. Notice I probably didn't even get to the green with the gauge but still enough oil to blow that o ring out. I think it also went over the overflow tube prior to blowing this ring out. So it's the gauge right? It's not reading correctly. I don't understand why that connection is where it blows out but it is. I had run 2 weeks prior to running this experiment just in case I was wrong. SN is JST00762 if that helps.
If the 90° adapter's nut has loosened, that Oring will shred in that manner. Or, if the mating surface on either the 45 or the 90 are compromised, from previous oscillating or jiggling, then the Oring will also fail, albeit normally with a single tear. My hunch is that it is unrelated to your hydraulic level, but rather a fitting interface issue, as there are other lines in that circuit, and they're not failing Orings. At this point, I would simply replace the 45 and 90 degree adapters between the hose and the motor.
#32 90° fitting is 153-6237 #9 45° fitting is 260-9143 If I'm reading parts pic correctly. From using a DX9 serial number as I hadn't noticed your serial number buried above.
Yeah. I replaced the fittings about half way through coming to the conclusion that I did about hydraulic fluid level. Maybe I'm not installing them correctly... It does seem to loosen the connection but only when I add fluid.
Double check hose routing and clamps etc. These drive hoses see pressures over 5000 psi, and they will flex and torque. This movement can cause a fitting to loosen, as you noted. I think most of us are in agreement that the oil level is likely an odd coincidence, simply a red herring. If you have had these apart multiple times might not hurt to replace the fittings again. . .
Do you trust caterpillar fluid level gauges? Maybe you know they work on your machine but if machine was unfamiliar to you would you trust gauges? Did you see in my description of events that oil also went through the overflow tube? The only way I am taking that fitting apart again is if I add fluid or add a pressure gauge to verify what my gut is telling me.
Archangel, I completely understand your frustration, it is clearly coming through in your posts. This place is full of good people and good info, you need to have a some patience though, people are only trying to help you, not doubt you. Equipment can be very difficult to repair, especially a used one, like yours, where you have no point of reference as to what’s been done before you got your hands on it. Have you replaced the fittings or line yet. That would be the first thing to try.
The fact that a 5k psi Oring connection is extruding its Oring has absolutely nothing to do with excess oil level in the hydraulic tank. There is no correlation that can be made for this, other than dumb luck or coincidence.
Wow hotshot what a great way to make friends here on HEF by insulting one our best mechanics on the board Cmark. Tone it down as we don't tolerate this type of behavior here. Oh yeah BTW you probably bought the worst model CTL Cat makes the 299, so you are going to need some mechanical advice along the way.
My frustration may have boiled over into life a little bit there I apologize. I have a talent for going scorched earth when my intention is a love tap. All of my problems with this machine are because of previous owner's abuse not Cat's engineering. I'll take the worst model Cat makes over the best model anyone else makes.
I understand it is an impossible correlation and I too am perplexed by it but I've also tested it enough times to bet a large sum of money it will fail if oil is added within 12 hours and not fail if isn't. The o ring failed nearly daily for the first few weeks I owned the machine. It had been over 18 days 150ish hours without failing when I ran this last test and it failed 6 hours after adding oil. The fittings are new and unmarred. I'd like to learn more about how the flow to final drive is controlled. I need to examine the hose arrangement as well. It could be that a zip tie that prevents ratcheting movement could fix the problem. Was my request for a way to check hydraulic fluid level without using my gauge unreasonable? How does one check if their gauge is working correctly?
How tight are you going on that fitting? By the looks of it, not tight enough. Every time the suspension moves its going to flex that hose and it'll start loosening up if you haven't locked it down tight enough. I'm with everyone else on this - an extra half gallon of oil in the tank isn't causing this issue.
I'd guess about 150 to 175 ftlb. It felt like it would fail if I went further. I agree the oil level has nothing to do with it. The o ring will fail within 12 hours of adding 10 quarts of oil though and remain intact if you don't.
I’m also of the opinion that oil level in the tank will have no bearing on the loosening fitting and blown out O-Ring. However I will offer these snippets that may or may not apply to your machine. 1. I’ve got evidence of machines, not all I hasten to add, where even after leaving the machine overnight there was a significant vacuum present in the tank when the fill cap was released. 2. After releasing the vacuum, and over the course of a couple of minutes, the indicated oil level in the tank increased. Attached the oil level checking procedure which will be in your O&M Manual. I assume you do have one.?
The total tank capacity is only 10.3 gallons so ignoring the occasions when the O-Ring has blown that’s 25% of system capacity. That is more than excessive for a simple top-up. Do you have any idea where it is going.?
It runs out on the ground after the o ring blows and it goes through the overflow. Going through overflow is why I assume gauge is not working. I'm going to examine it when I get the track tensioner back from welding to see how that hose is flexing when pressure is applied and whether I can reduce its movement by zip tying it to another hose. I noticed some ties in that hydraulic schematic. Unfortunately the side I have o ring problems with is not the side I have the track off. Those machines that form a vacuum have a nice tight seal at cap i'd guess. Oil would heat air in tank up to 160 degrees or so for my machine. When it cooled it would create a vacuum just like a canning jar. Mine has a vacuum when I open it if my memory serves correctly. Why the gauge would rise after vacuum releases is counter intuitive to me unless gauge uses some kind of pressure potentiometer to measure level. Thanks everyone for input.
Let me attempt to explain. If you look at the hydraulic oil cooler you will see that it is mounted higher than the hydraulic tank up on top of the radiator. The theory (as I understand it) is that the cooler will empty itself over time due to gravity when the machine is stopped and that oil will find its way back to the tank, thus raising the oil level. Under certain circumstances the “air lock” caused by the vacuum can prevent the oil draining back to tank from the cooler and so the tank level gauge will read low. Try opening the cap, release the vacuum, wait for 10 minutes then check the level again. I hope it helps in your case but I make no promises.
You have to bear in mind that the tank has an atmospheric breather that should mostly prevent that. Maybe the breather needs checking that it’s not plugged, or even replace it.? It’s mounted up on top of the LH side of the rear frame and connected to the tank by a hose.
I guess the breather is what I've been calling an overflow.
Correct. It will now be contaminated with oil to the extent that the least bit of dust around it is likely to plug it. I would suggest removing it and washing it with kerosene or something similar then dry with compressed air.
That hydraulic oil level checking procedure assumes the gauge is working properly. I'd like to verify my gauge is working correctly.
What would cause hydraulic oil to go through the breather?
The o ring only blows when the needle on the gauge is in the green. I said 10 quarts because I estimate that's what I put in last time i tested this strange idea. It might have been a little less. I know that there is no obvious rational reason oil level would cause that o ring to blow. Unless maybe there was a restriction preventing oil from getting back to reservoir and causing pressures to climb beyond design parameters or added weight to hydraulic tank causes that hose to flex differently or something else I havent considered.
Oil level too high then expansion due to temperature is one possibility that I can think of. There is no way I know of testing the gauge other than to replace it with a new one. The Part Number is 345-4583. The gauge must be installed so that it is oriented the same way as your photo on the previous page.
Take gauge out and verify the action of the float vs level. Then, hold it even with tank. Could your leak be aerating the oil?
Gauge orientation doesn't matter. No swing arm.
Strange that. According to the gauge installation instructions the orientation matters. I’ll see if I can find them.
Herewith the installation instructions. Make sense of them if you can because I can’t. Sight gauge should be tightened to orient gauge. Minimum tighten to 14 N·m (124 lb in) continue to tighten the sight gauge until correct orientation of 0 to 15 degrees is achieved from horizontal plan. Maximum tighten to 22 N·m (195 lb in).
Tighten nut to 14N•m, rotate gauge until oriented so scale is oriented same as before removal, then tighten to 22 N•m. Easy peasy.
If you have not already figured this out, I will offer some guidance here. I have extensive experience with these machines but my comments here may be worth what you pad. It is a poor design to begin with and most other brands of machines have a superior choice of fittings in this area. First check the durometer of the O-ring you are installing. This is a 5,000 psi circuit you are working with. Not all O-rings perform at these pressures. When tightening make sure your tools are not contacting other fittings and fooling you about the torque applied. This can easily happen on these hoses. Locktite is your friend. Specifically, locktite 545 can be used on these threads and will stop the fittings from loosening up in operation. This product is designed to be used with hydraulics and will not destroy the hydraulic system if you get contamination of the fluid. Don't expect to find this locally. Ebay and Amazon are your friend. You're probably already doing this. Make sure everything is spotlessly clean. One grain of sand can destroy the O-ring when reassembling. Make sure the O-ring is not rolled or pinched when re assembling. These fittings are problematic on these machines. Debris getting into this area can and will knock the fittings loose. If you're already working on these hoses, it is worth the effort to check the routing for the speed sensor wire. This wire can be routed in the center of the hydraulic hoses and have the bundle zip tied together so that the hoses protect the wiring and connector for the speed sensor. Speed sensors are a known issue on these machines and damage to the wiring is usually the issue. Using the hoses in this way is well worth the effort in my experience. To the engineers that design this. I hope I never meet you in person because I will probably end up in jail. Why can't we just have JIC fitting. They just work without all this ridiculous bs with O-rings. Bobcat uses flange bolt type fitting in this area, and they are very reliable connections in this area. Also, these hoses tend to wear they go through the frame. It is worth the effort to add some protection to make these hoses last longer. I have added a piece of split 3-inch green suction hose around the bundle of hydraulic hoses in this area. A pain to add but so is changing these hoses. If you're running this machine in any sort of production environment, I would consider keeping spare hoses of all the hoses that go to the drive motors. Lastly and you probably already know this be very meticulous about cleanliness when working in this area. It is easy to contaminate the system while working in this area. Failure of the drive motors is the number one hydraulic problem on these machines and the filtration is woefully inadequate to prevent a failure in general much less if you inadvertently introduce contaminates in the drive motor circuit or any other for that matter. Good luck these machines are unreliably and poorly engineered at best in my experience. I have had multiple of these machines with warranty claims approaching or exceeding the cost of the machine itself not including downtime cost.
Locktite 545 is purple