Hi folks!! I'm new to the forum, and am really glad I discovered it. Great resource!! In any event, I've had a Case 855D track loader/backhoe since 1997. It's just been used for construction on two residences (1 my own), and basic road maintenance. I've kept up on oil changes and lubrication pretty well (given its sporadic use), although I do NOT have a factory service manual. The engine runs like a dream (was rebuilt right before it arrived here from the County). A couple of major and routine items have been done over the years: New rear drive sprockets New Hydraulic pump New alternator Some new hoses New batteries Rusted through oil pan repaired with JB weld (still holding after 16 yrs!) Removed the 35C backhoe attachment a couple of years ago after the leakage became too great from about 5 of the cylinders Anyway, the tracks have been getting noisier and noisier over the years, as well as binding up at times. Last week I discovered one of the bottom rollers was literally just flopping around, so I'm sure that is part of the problem. I have a new roller on the way, and in the interim I'm repainting the machine and recovering the seats (will post before/after pics later). I am ALSO rebuilding the bucket cylinders, which are leaking so bad its almost criminal. That will be my first-ever foray into that arena, so my fingers are crossed. My main question is this: what can I do to make the tracks quieter, and is there a guide I can download that tells me how to rotate the pins or do any normal chain maintenance required for a track machine? I would appreciate any advice I can get, and really appreciate comments. Thx much!!
If they're binding from excessive wear they're beyond being turned. If they're just tight soak the rail in tranny fluid, diesel fuel, used motor oil, anything that'll soak in. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Thx for the reply D. I guess I AM completely clueless. When you say "the rail", what are your referring to exactly? The track itself where the pins are? It just so happens I HAVE a 55 gallon drum of used motor oil here, so I can try that. I really dont understand how people rate undercarriages at "X% (wish I did). Is there an easy way to read up on how to find out what my problem is (i.e if my tracks are worn beyond repair or the pins are just tight)?
Yes the rail is the actual track where the pins are. Loosen the track, grab a pad (the cleets) and rock it side to side. If you can rock it back and forth by itself, it means your pins and bushings are worn. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
There are many different ways to judge an undercarriage. For instance, an 80% undercarriage means nothing to me. You need to find out the wear on each component. Someone can replace the rail and say it has "new undercarriage" when actually it has a 100% rail with 10% pads and the idler and bottom rollers are about to fall off, and you could shave with the sprocket segments (teeth worn badly). Make sense? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
OK, thx a lot. I will be loosening the track on one side anyway when I install the new roller. I will wait until after I paint the beast to soak the tracks in the oil (haha). In the event they are FUBAR, am I looking at new tracks, or just replacing pins & bushings?
Indeed, that DOES make sense (seeing as I replaced the big drive sprockets in 97, and have done nothing since). This new roller issue is probably telling me the OTHERS are jurting too...
Hi Dmax. Had a thought that the easiest (and least messy) option might be motorcycle chain lube from a spray can. Will that work just as well?
OK, here is the "before" picture of Case 855D track loader. Tracking down the "power yellow" paint has proven to be a bit challenging, but I am sure I will find it eventually. Once the cylinders are rebuilt (kits arriving tommorow), I will get cracking on the paint. Have already pulled and dismantled the seats, so installing new foam and recovering them is the current order of business.
The colour is called power tan, viking1. The more you use the tracks the less rust they will have & less noise they will make. The type of ground they work on will 'lube' them as well. Doesn't look like there is much moist clay / topsoil around there though...... Try some of that used oil first -
Hiya mate, thx for the reply!! Hope things are well down under..... My machine is older than 1983, and that's the year they switched to "power tan" (which is really a darker orange). I located 6 cans of my "power yellow" in Sioux City Iowa, and the Case dealer is having some shipped here. Not much of it left (which says something about how old I am... ). As soon as machine is painted, I'll be drizzling the tracks. Mostly solid rock up here in the mountains, or this very fine whitish soil that could probably be used for soda blasting, haha. I imagine they will be FAR less noisy with the lube and new roller......
Strange - I Have only ever seen 855D's in power tan. Your picture certainly looks like a very faded 855D as I know them ...... :beatsme
Yeah, thats a pretty poor picture (early morning sun). I think its been painted a couple of different shades over the years (not very well either)....
Sounds like the pins & bushings are sticking possibly from lack of use. Like mentioned try some oil & run it awile,hopefully it comes out of it. I love the picture & view behind the dozer:thumbsup The mountains & saguaro cactus reminds me of a scene from www.thehighchaparral.com Good luck on the 855 restoration viking1.
I'm sure you are correct Sir, as the problem is very minimal. Just fixing the dangling roller (along with lubrication) should make a world of difference. Does anyone have a resource to download a FSM for the 855D (in case I need to rotate the pins)? BTW, I actually live in a small oasis in the middle of the rarest of the rare Upper Sonoran desert where three unique features converge; seasonal flowing water, Sonoran desert, and mountains. I have 2.3 million acres of National forest to the North and East, and a 3,000 acre Preserve to the West (off in the distance in the pic). As you can imagine, I use the machine VERY carefully and sparingly (much like a surgeon with a scalpel).....
If you decide to rotate the pins and bushings, the only practical way to do it is to take it to a track press.
Thats some interesting country you live in viking1. Would like to visit that area someday. About turning the pins & bushings as mitch504 stated you will have to get to a shop that has a "Track Press". This is what one looks like www.bercoamerica.com/t-service.aspx Empire has several shops in Arizona www.empire-cat.com/locations.aspx I would think they would have the abillity to turn pins & bushings.
Appreciate the info from you and Mitch. I'm hopeful the roller replacement and lube will make a big difference (as those track press machines look darn expensive!!). Familiar with Empire; rented a machine from them long ago when I first built my house. BIG outfit. Finished recovering the seats today. Will post pics tommorrow....
If you can get a pic of the bushings , a pic of the side of the rail or chain and a pic of the sprocket teeth. If your chains are the dry type or have lost they're oil than there is nothing to do to stop the squeaking especially in the dry climate your in. If the machine is solid and you can up the funds you may consider putting a new set of rails on it as well as all the bottom rollers. With little use it would last a long time.
Pics of my refurbished seat. Not a pro job obviously, but good to go. Can never resist using up my diamond plate scrap whenever possible either!! That's two gallons of Case "power tan" paint sitting next to the seat. I'll be shooting the machine after the bucket cylinder seals are installed (pulling them tommorrow)......
Hi DJ. Here's a pic of the rail as close as I could get with my limited photog skills (and vision ). I found out today at the dealer my machine is vintage 1989. Did a quick search and found just ONE NOS chain for $800 on fleabay. That's a bit pricey, and what I REALLY need is more gnarly grousers (like the ones @ bercoamerica) for better traction. I'm sure the cost of them would give me a minor coronary too.....
BTW, rear drive sprockets are fresh and in good shape (first thing I replaced when machine arrived)......
Yair . . . viking 1 . For what you are doing there is lots of life in those rails yet, very defined wear pattern on outer edge, it would pay to check all your rollers and both idlers. Can't see the bushes but check out the last few pictures on tct tractor's using a bit of muscle (hydraulic) thread . . . they have been worked to destruction. Tracks are inherently noisy and screechy. You mentioned running water, if tracks are stiff and locking up take her for a bogey backwards and forwards in a puddle hole or creek. It is a very simple but boring job to weld proper re-build rail or re-bar onto your grousers. I wouldn't go too hog wild, just add a bit to one lug on each plate . . . worn grousers on old tractors are a clever self regulating feature designed to take a bit of load off ancient final drives. (he grins) Don't forget to disconnect batteries. Chain bucket up and just tack the new pieces on and keep jacking tractor back or forward and shoot a good down hand weld in there when they are in a comfortable position going around the sprocket or the idler. It's a lot less money than blowing off and replacing all that hard wear and plates. If you don't weld it's an excellent way to get some practice. (he grins again) Cheers.
Great to hear that news Scrub, Thx!! This machine has seen a LOT of water, so I think oil would be the first choice (LOL). Do you have any pictures of that homemade grouser mod you can post so I can visualize it?
Yair . . . viking1 LOL. Funny you should ask. Have a look at DMillers new "my donor nears point of no return" post . . . something like that. Seriously though I would be leary about putting serious amounts of oil onto rails for the same reason I don't lube tow balls or the hitch balls on tractor linkage. Cheers
Brand new dry bushing tracks screech like banshees. I agree with scrub, if you put oil on them it just gives the dirt an easier time sticking and climbing into the bushings to make them wear faster.
WOW!! Those look like they mean business!! Those are definitely not rebar, so I'm assuming they are the rebuild rail you mentioned (just steel scrap?). I will definitely undertake that after cylinders are resealed (and I check the final drive fluid). Thx mate!!
Thx Mitch. The noise doesnt bother me so much (I wear earplugs, of course), but a friend who's a BMW master mechanic assumed that meant there was an issue (Beemers are quiet ). It will be interesting to see what happens when I replace the roller (arriving tommorrow)....
Looks like rebar will be my grouser material choice (unless I can find a reasonable local distributor). Check out THIS quote: "The price each for a 10’ 840 Bar is $27.82 and the freight for one bar to PHX would be $131.88. " LMAO.....
I pulled the bucket cylinders off alone today w/o a boom truck (and w/o getting killed). Wouldnt recommend that to anyone else; glad I didnt squash a finger. Got the cylinders taken apart OK, but cant get the rod nut off. It's a 1 13/16th" nut on there. Going to try and heat it (in case its loctited), and then use a breaker bar with a bobcat bucket to break them free tommorrow....
Yes that's a good job with out any lifting equipment, I also put some heat to them to loosen up the Loctite just in case. I use a 1" gun or the 4 to1 multi most of the time but the bobcat bucket can also do the trick. You had us going with the 1983 and the power yellow, I had not seen a 855D with anything but the power brown and power tan also. They started building them in 84-87 at Bettendorf, then moved in 87 to Wausau, 88 started with the jak0005526 s/n at Wausau. The rebar will work for what you want to do with the tracks, good mig or spool gun, that's a lot of rods to burn, did a lot of grouser bars in the 70/80's, two of us, one front and back welding threw the night. The 855d's with the cdc engines are a good track loader in it's class.
Yeah SF, I'm still strong enough but the joints are giving out from years of abuse. Just happy I didnt get hurt too badly, and hoping for the same luck when I start replacing the track roller tommorrow (any advice appreciated). I was pleasantly surprised to find out my machine was a 1989 vintage when I took the serial# to the dealer (newer than I expected). I guess my color confusion started because the new drive sprockets I installed when the machine arrived are the power yellow color, and the rest of the machine is faded. Guess I just assumed they gave me the correct color replacement parts (LOL). In any event taking off the cylinders ruined a good power-washing job. Fluid sprayed all over the machine again.
From this picture it looks like your tracks are still in fair shape. The way they hang suggests there is still some meat on the rails. The adjustment looks not to be all the way out so you might have some wear left on the pitch. The fact that the sprockets have been changed suggests the pitch is already too far. Tracks with too much pitch wear sprockets. The only way to know for sure is to measure the pitch. There was a chart on the net that gives the measurements but I dont know if it includes Case. In my opinion re bar is a poor chaice for grouser build up. It looks sloppy aand will certainly diminish any resale value. They make a proper bar for semi gouser build up. It is best to weld 2 per shoe.
Tom, when you say "pitch" do you mean the amount of sag in the top of the track? I actually plan on tightening them a bit when done with the rehab. There should be quite a bit of life left in this 1989 machine; I've used it only a few hours a week on average since we got it in 98. BTW, the shipping costs of getting proper stock here are just too expensive. See my earlier post for ONE 10' piece of 840 stock....
Pitch is the length of a rail segment. To measure this is the typical formula for an average. Take a straight and tight section of rail measure from the leading edge of a track pin back across four links(will be the 5th pin in line) to the final pin leading edge, divide by four and you get an average of each segments length of pitch. Your tractor should measure 6.75 inches per segment new and would be 6.75 rail pitch. This is IHC Dresser dimension instructions but works as a good guide to understanding: http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf
Wow, Thx D!! That looks exactly like what I need to read to start understanding how these beast actually function. BTW, I am getting ready to replace the roller with the blown out bearing (see below pic). Do I need to take weight/tension off the track, or can I just weasel under there and bolt on the new roller (after removing the bad one, of course )?
https://sites.google.com/site/crawlerheaven/wear-limitpinsandbushings Here is the site with the specs, it does have a listing for Case.
You will need to collapse your track adjustment, then raise the crawler to where the roller can be withdrawn from the outside. Many mechanics will use a section of plywood to support the rollers coming out and going in to keep from fighting the rail. Good place to mash blacken a fingernail or two and cut one's fingers to shreds if the rails are wear sharpened. Break the bolts loose but not removed for that roller before you jack it up unless you have a healthy impact wrench.
Yair . . . viking1 . You need more room to change that roller than you might imagine and the roller change will be much easier after you get the machine mobile after repairing your rams. As Dmiller mentions, collapse your track adjustment by removing the grease fitting and bump the idler back against a stump or baulk of timber. Next, move the machine to a nice level place and jack the front way up with the bucket. You will need a heavy baulk, maybe a chain sawed section of tree trunk (say) about one foot in diameter and get it under the track at about centre point on the track frame . . . it will probably be a little awkward as the slack track will most likely be drooping down. Once you get it under lift the bucket and, if you have the baulk in the right position the tractor will teeter-totter forward and the sprocket will lift up off the ground, you mightn't get it right first time but you'll soon get the idea. Cut another baulk and pack beneath the sprocket then lift the front of the tractor with the bucket remove the teeter-totter baulk and use it to pack beneath the idler. Lower the machine, bucket down hard, lock brakes and chock the other track and check that every thing is safe. If everything went right there should be heaps of clearance. Once you get the other roller off it will probably pay to run a tap into the holes and wire brush the bolts so they run in nice and free . . . don't forget the Never-sieze! I had a squat two stage mechanical jack for lifting rollers but with a little tractor like that you could do it with an off-sider and a bar. I have never used the plywood but it sounds like a good idea. Be careful and work safe. Cheers.
Thx Tom; good site!!
Thx D; real good advice!! Not looking fwd to the roller change!
That teeter-totter's a great idea Scrubs (although I NEVER would have thought of this machine as "little", LOL!!). I think I'll be using railroad ties (all that I have), or maybe even sections of heavy steel pipe (although that idea scares me a little)....
Bucket cylinders resealed & installed w/no leaks!! Taking the rod bolt off was easy once I figured out I HAD to melt the loctite with the torch. Pressure washing all the fluid and last bits of gunk off tommorrow, then I'll start painting. Looking fwd to it....
90% of painting completed today. Went through one gallon of Case power tan, and it was really easy and turned out great. New decals are on the way, and when this coat is completely cured in 48 hours I'll move the machine to get the bottom of the tracks/etc, as well as lift the bucket to get the areas I couldnt get to. Really makes the machine look like new.......
Man, I was hoping you'd have some power tan left so you could come paint my 580sK. It really looks good.
Thx Mitch. BTW if I can repaint a machine, I guarantee you can.... Really easy, that Case paint goes on like butter....
Well done viking1 . Paint looks great!
Thx, TD. Sun came out again here in AZ, so I'll move the machine and lift the bucket later to get the spots I missed. Paint curing as we type....
Amazing how many missed spots you dont see until you raise the bucket. Final step will be to move machine till the unpainted portion of the running gear is exposed and ready to paint.
Does this machine have the 6 cylinder cummins?
Case 6T-590, I believe.....
6t-590 Case = Cummins B 5.9 turbo. That engine was designed by Case, and they made a deal with Cummins to build it. 4-390 = B 3.9 4T-390 = B 3.9 turbo 6-590 = B 5.9
Thx Sir; good to know. According to my manual I had options for either the turbo, or naturally aspirated (I got the latter)....
Ok, if it's naturally aspirated it's a 6-590, not a 6T-590.
First day using machine since rehab. I used it to drag my next project into driveway; an M56 driveline swap . Case decals arriving today, should finish it off nice. Sure is tough to see all that fresh paint wear off the grousers within 10' of travel though....
Decals finished it off nicely.......
I'm about to try and break the roller bolts loose Friday or Saturday (got a lil sidetracked). I will heat the heck out of them beforehand, but have been told they most likely will snap off. Anyone out there have any other advice for breaking them free?
Yair . . . viking1 . It could be an advantage to heat the bolt-heads cherry red and let them cool out overnight. This expands the bolt and with a bit of luck it may break the rust seal, a good pounding on the accessible bolt flats with a drift and four pound hammer would maybe help as well. I have found that one of the problems with roller/rock-guard bolts on the older machines is that they screw through open ended holes tapped into blocks welded inside the track frame. The exposed threads inside get rusted and corroded and you can often pop them but the threads gall up and lock the bolt after a few turns and that's when the darn things break. Any sort of lubrication you can squirt up in there is going to help. When reinstalling I used to always measure the bolts and cut them one thread short of protruding with plenty of Neversieze they will be much easier next time. However if your machine has lived in the desert you may be pleasantly surprised and find you have no problem . . . if you are doing battle with a bolt heat an adjacent strip on the track frame and try and keep the bolt as cool as possible. Cheers.
Thx for all that great advice, Scrubs. I will follow it to the letter, and hope for the best. Still no idea how I am going to get enough torque with my bad shoulder on those bolts. Its my understanding they are torqued to 2300 ft lbs (ouch).........
Sometimes it helps to shoot them with your penetrating oil of choice while they are still red hot also. (They usually won't catch fire) Some people like candle wax also. Something about the cooling effect pulling more lube into the spaces. It seems to have worked for me a couple of times.
Thank you Sir, that's real good advice I'll follow. I can hear & smell the sizzle now.....
I've been attacking the old trucks on the donor Allis, a sharp hit to the head of the bolts seemed to work on a few of them and I got them to roll out, now I am down to the heat and try again or gas-axe phase for many of them. Once removed I will roll the trucks over and finish removing the remnant pieces I wish to recover then scrap out the final pieces. Many of the old lower boltings had erosion and or contact damage so they may never back out.
Will try the mallet whacks too, D!! Thx!!
I was using a 4# sledge, just hit square and you won't tend to flare or flatten the heads.
Hi folks. Ever since I rebuilt the bucket cylinders, the lift cylinders are xtremely slow and weak. They dont leak through the wiper muchat all, and the bucket cylinders work great. Any ideas if I might have some type of an air lock in the hydraulic circuit etc? I'm doubting its an internal cylinder problem (as they worked great before the bucket cylinder rebuild). BTW, got a bit sidetracked restoring an old 1954 Ford NAA Golden Jubilee.....
There are internal reliefs on most loader cylinders, could be opening too soon bypassing fluid, could be a restriction in a fitting or line blocking flow forcing a relief open Best to 'T' in a pressure gauge and see if pressure is up or down.
Thx D, a couple of questions: 1)where do put the "T" (ie which line), and what PSI am I looking for? 2)How would this problem arise so suddenly when they were working OK before I did the bucket cylinders?
Would end up locating the line off the control assembly that feeds the push side of the ram(lift), with my type of luck you will end up testing the opposite side first the pull side(lower). Will have to access the pivot point of the cylinder, locate the tractor side of the lines and disassemble there. IF by chance the ram seals were possible installed backward the ram will not develop enough pressure to make lift as most will be bypassing could be that reason. Otherwise as stated could be trash in a relief or a broken spring. When a lift cylinder pushes, it is also forcing oil on the opposite side back to tank, that fluid flow becomes restricted in any way and it will slow the process, if the flow is excessive due to leakby at the relief on the push side then again it will have slow travel time. Another test is to try to dig with it to see if there is any breakout force or down pressure either for that matter. Arms do not push down to lift the tractor or cannot lift a measure of material the cylinders will need to come back off.
OK D, I see the confusion now. I rebuilt the BUCKET cylinders, and they are working just fine. The lift cylinders were NOT rebuilt (and are now the problem), and were working fine before I rebuilt the bucket cylinders.
Do the crowd cylinders load the engine when fully stalled, more than the lift? You have 2 levers for the hydraulic controls? Does the Aux control load the engine as much as the crowd? Try using the lift & then pressurizing the crowd, or the aux, to full relief pressure at the same time, does it improve the speed/power of the lift?
Hi Alr, the machine has one lever for all the cylinders. Side-to-side moves the bucket cylinders; front-to-back lifts the loader up & down. The cylinder speed/strength DOES increase slightly when revving the engine.....
Increasing the RPM should make a difference. In your earlier pictures I can see another control lever (auxilary) beside the lift/tilt control. Is it attached to the valve? When you fully crowd or roll the bucket, & you continue to hold it there under pressure, does it load the engine up more than when you hold pressure on the lift?
The 2nd control switches the hydraulcs from the front bucket to the backhoe/quick connects. Yes, rolling the bucket has always placed more strain on the engine/pumpthan using the lift cylinders.....
I'm assuming the aux hydraulics to the hoe are going through the main control valve? Or is there another valve? Does moving the aux lever load the engine the same as the crowd? If so, while using the lift, stroke the aux lever to full pressure - the lift should noticeably speed up.
Ya Alr; only the one valve. Wont fluid shoot out of the disconnected hoses if I switch over the valve to the backhoe side, or are the quick connect couplers enough to stop that from happening? I havent moved the aux lever since I took the hoe out of service.....
If the hoses are capped (I hope they are) or if there are QR fittings fitted at the rear of the machine, yes, they will take the pressure.
ALR, QR fittings held the pressure fine. Moving the aux lever seemed to load the engine as much as rolling the bucket cylinders. The lift cylinders definitely move faster/stronger at full throttle.
I need you you to test the lift speed & power, while pressurizing the aux control - using two hands, both levers (lift & aux) at the same time. Use lower revs about 1200-1500 & look for speed increase in the lift while pressurizing the aux.
Didnt seem to affect lift speed when I pressurized the aux. Only increased engine revs seem to be doing that.
Strange noises in engine suddenly; can anyone offer a long-range diagnosis? Strange noises in engine suddenly; can anyone offer a long-range diagnosis? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTseVK_ODnE&feature=youtu.be
Yair . . . Dunno viking1 . . . fan bearings perhaps? I wouldn't run 'til you get it sorted, sounds 'orrible. Cheers.
Thx Scrub. It really runs fine besides the horrible noise. I also pulled and redid the leaking top cover/shaft on the injection pump yesterday; we had thought lack of fuel was making it miss originally. Have had a long screwdriver (used as listening device) all over machine but cant pinpoint the noise......
It almost sounds like the fan is rubbing the shroud a bit. Any wiggle in the fan if you loosen the belt?
New videos w side covers removed I eliminated the water pump, fan, and alternator by removing the belt and running the engine (noise still there). Here's a couple more videos w side covers/floorpans removed...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLO9aI9l_H0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_hw2OPxE7Y
Any smoke out the exhaust? Does it start easy? Drain the oil & check for metal....... Inspect the valves/tappets. If nothing shows up with the above - May need a compression test as well. Maybe a broken flexplate..... :beatsme
Yair . . . viking1 loose flywheels can make some strange knocking . . . dunno, just guessing. alrmans suggestion to check sump for metal I think would be next obvious step . . . the squarking sound that prompted me to suggest bad fan bearings (and kb9tci to mention fan rubbing on the shroud) seems absent in those latest clips? Whatever happens you will keep us posted? . . . it's a new one on me trying to do diagnosis from half a world away . . . hope for your sake it turns out to be not as bad as it sounds. Cheers.
Ya. Starts easily, no excessive smoke, no metal that we can see in the oil. I'm leaning towards flexplate too because of the squealing, but also maybe a fuel knock?
Did the noise start when you started it after working on the injection pump leak? If so that is where I would start looking for the solution. Possible that something inadvertly changed in the injection pump causing a bad fuel knock or possible the shaft is seizing. Good luck and keep us posted on what you see and find. On another note, I just read thru the whole post written over a couple years. If you get around to welding bar on to the grousers be sure to keep the ground cable on the grouser you are welding on. You do not want to take a chance on an arc straying thru a bearing trying to make contact.
Thx for the input, Old iron. Noise was actually before we pulled the pump. When checking into the sound, we saw the top cover/shaft were leaking, so we fixed it thinking we had a fuel knock (not the case). I just got done pulling the belly pans; converter is coming off tomorrow (yikes!!). We'll disconnect/inspect that, and then run the engine to see if the noise remains.....
I'm not sure if you have drained the oil to come to this conclusion. You won't see the metal on the stick. You will need to drain the pan to see if there is any metal from a bearing failure. I would do this first - before pulling the convertor. If the flexplate HAS failed all drive & hydraulics will stop. If it IS failing, ie cracked, you may get some debris from the hole in the bottom of the bellhousing. If the engine oil checks out OK, my next port of call is all the tappets, & I still would do a compression test before I would pull the convertor. Hard to call without being there to really hear & feel the machine .....
Noise was most severe from the front as the first video ran, the second added a screeching noise. Get the pan off, look at each journal on the crank individually, I am suspecting you will find it in the first three rod or main.
Torque converter pulled, and engine started; noise remains. We will get the engine out of the machine in the morning and onto the stand. It will be interesting to see what's actually wrong; i.e. a spun crank bearing, rod bearing, etc et al. Not a fun job in 105 degrees.....
Actually has some play in the crank at the flex plate (more than seems normal). Don't know if that is significant or not.....
Had to pull the converter off to get the engine out anyway; was hoping for a miracle.....
OK, engine pulled..... Pan removed, and metal galore...... And the winner is rod bearing #5 (completely gone). That's the last remaining chunk of rod bearing sitting perpendicular atop the main journal. Everything else looks OK, but I'm sure the metal munched all the bearings/journals. Disassembly and then off to the machine shop to find out what oversize I will need (everything original; made it to 3500+ hours).....
Yair . . . viking1 . You don't mess around. I have no knowledge of your engine but it should have done way more than 3500hrs before such a failure . . . I would be looking for reasons, like where does that journal lube from? . . . and make sure all galleries are clear before reassembly. Cheers.
Don't have time to mess around scrub; onset of early 50's light's a fire under your a**.... I agree; thinking maybe the hour meter is inaccurate or was off for awhile (machine is a 1989; had it since 98). Its seen pretty sporadic, heavy use though. I moved 150-200 tons of dirt in a day and a half (in 100+ degree temps) the day it failed last week. We have another 200 to move just waiting; so need to get it back in service. Hopefully the machine shop will determine proper flow of the galleys & journals. BTW we also spent several hours the last two days working to get the below tractor functional. Terex 72-51AA that belongs to a friend. Runs great (Detroit diesel), but doesn’t move very well under its own power; seems to be a converter issue. Threw in 5 gallons of fluid today, and it improved quite a bit....
Nasty! Make sure you take a good look at the camshaft lobes & the lifters. A new oil pump should also be considered. Hope the crank checks out OK for you........ those you tube videos may have cost you more than you realized..... :drinkup
Have it completely apart now. Cam/followers/pistons & rings look great; bearings and crank journals not so much. It had definitely been apart before; the cylinder that failed has a different piston than the other 5. It will get a new oil pump for sure; taking the whole kit & caboodle (block, head, crank, cam, rods & pistons) to machine shop in the morning. Hopefully they can get the crank cleaned up again. I doubt it could have been too much more harmful to run it longer for diagnosis, but it wasn't optimal in hindsight......
OUCH!! Knew it was serious, sorry to see I was correct as to a rod bearing failure. May want to opt to a fully reground crank or to go with a used replacement polished and new bearings set to common size. Most likely a field fix failing rod bearing before, just did not or could not get crank clean enough to keep from repeating.
That certainly could be the case (i.e. on the field rebuild). I bought a complete rebuilt 6BT590 turbo motor on Fleabay; should get here by Saturday. I will enjoy the 70-80 more HP, but am still going to rebuild my original. Machine shop should have a diagnosis on my crank by tomorrow. It DEFINITELY looked soft, so I will need a regrind. They said rod is fine (don't ask me how).....
Rebuilt 6BT590 arrived today. Now comes the fun of installing it in 108 degrees (after a fresh coat of Case "power tan")....
I hope that with 70 to 80 more HP the rest of the drive train holds up. If we have the power us humans seem to have a need to use it all.
I think since it (turbo) was an OEM option, the driveline will be able to handle it (age notwithstanding). Trust me O.I.; after all the trouble its been to replace, I will take it easy.....
I was thinking that the 6BT590 was around 90 to 100 hp , unless it came out of a bigger tractor like an 1150. I've ran both case tractors non turbo and one with , in the 850 size , neither lacked any power. The t model seemed to actually have more power than needed as well. Did you get all the plumbing for the aircleaner and exhaust? Everything else should bolt up pretty well. Back to the beginning , the non turbo was about 80hp I thought. Post up photos of any changes you have to make , I find this type stuff pretty interesting.
BTW what did the donor come out of?
Yes Sir, its kind of tough to find Case specs that differentiate between the turbo and naturally-aspirated engine. The Dodge truck version was rated at 174 HP/400 ft lbs, so I'm assuming this engine is comparable. No idea from whence the engine originated. We have all the necessary plumbing available to throw it in, but I'm sure it will be a journey. I will have to tackle rebuilding the original engine right after too...
That's not a Dodge engine with the exhaust pointing up like that and the color is wrong as well. It should have a data plate on it to specify hp. There is somewhat of a large difference between the truck engine and equipment. At any rate you have parts or spare parts.
By the color you have a military surplus unit either for a gen set or a tractor, without knowing the codes they use today and seeing the data tag no way to determine. If was for either will be a good choice for your machine as a gen set engine works much as a tractor, put to speed and work all day. It wasn't for a truck with up pointed exhaust either.
Yes Sir, I assumed it was mil spec (and that's GOOD) because of the color. I have an 1953 M56 crash & rescue truck I just swapped a Dodge 440 Magnum into; don't make anything like all the old iron anymore. I'll post the info from the data plate tomorrow after pickup in the big city. Hoping its newly rebuilt as billed (I trust the seller). Anyone know the best break-in methods on a fresh 6BT590?
Installed and running like a champ!! 2x the horsepower; here is the initial start after install....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nocKYisTdS8&feature=youtu.be
Ah the sweet smell of success! You must be pretty handy with the wrenches. Post up some more pics of the fuel inj pump and other things like exhaust mods and intake please. Could be valuable to others later on.
Will do. I actually have a friend who was point man on most of the tough stuff, but I was there most of the time. The engine arrived as 12 volt; we changed to the 24v starter & alternator, but wired 12 volts to the injector pump shutoff. Also swapped pulleys & belts, and the oil pickup tube. Moved dirt with it today; it really rocks now...........
Got me thinking again. I have never seen an 850 size machine even up until the H model in 24v. I'm not real familiar with the loaders but I know essentially the base tractors are identical. I have been around several 850 dozers never seen a 24volt. Oh well if its working rock on!
I am interested in your restoration project. How is it coming along?
Good job and good to hear it run. I am curious how you wired the 12 volt circuit. Is the shutoff momentary power or continuous draw when the engine is running? Did you use a 24 to 12 volts transformer or are you pulling 12V from one battery. May not be a big deal if it only momentary to shut it off, but when you pull a 12 volt load from one battery on a 24 volt system your battery life and starting suffers as one battery is never charged correctly. Here in the cold country it's the best way in the world to freeze and break a battery.
I moved over 400 tons of dirt with the machine over the holiday weekend (pics coming soon); the difference in power is astounding!!! I have a slight problem with the loader valve that forces me to find the exact sweet spot to dig. Once that is repaired though, "Katie bar the door"......
Yes Sir; good call. Its wired continuous draw and pulling off of one battery at the moment. I'm going to try and find the correct 24v solenoid that fits the Bosch pump, but I'm putting small solar trickle chargers on it at the moment during down time to keep the batteries up. Not as much an issue here, as we were 100 degrees plus almost all weekend.....
I finally changed that lower roller today; boy am I glad THAT job is over. Thx to Scrub, D Miller, and all the other folks who chimed in with great advice.....
I'm chiming a little late , but when working on u/c issues I have my sons friends come over , they're football players you know like lifting weights etc. " Bet you can't pick that up". " Ok then you can't put that here while I start these bolts?" On idlers and heavier things you got to challenge 2 of them as a team . They are rough on strong bars and ratchets though.
Yair . . . viking1 . Good stuff! It's nice to see you up and running. Cheers.
That's a good plan Sir.....
Thx Scrub; its really great having the old girl running better and stronger than it ever has 25 years after it was made. I picked up this little Ford 4500 yesterday; already starting the renovation by giving it a fresh coat of "Power Tan" to match my fleet....
One day turnaround on fresh paint job for "new" Ford 4500......
Yair . . . viking1 . Nice tidy machine . . . what is her purpose in your operations? You folks in the US call them skip-loaders I think . . . does it have PTO and standard ag. three point linkage or does the grader box have a different system? Your example has nice chunky looking rubber. I sure like the hills and cactus in the background . . . I think I could feel very comfortable at you place. Cheers.
Yup that's a skip loader, I will use it to grade my road for now. The tires are BRAND new (still have the tabs between the treads). It has a has a plate over the rear diff for a PTO, and a backhoe setup that has been converted to a gannon 3 point by the P.O. (my buddy). I'll have to fix that up a bit (doesn't raise quite high enough via hand pump). Ya, its nice and quiet out here. Built everything here over the last 20 years; my final resting place......
I finally got the time to go thru all the cylinders of the 35C backhoe that came on my 855D. Gave her a new coat of power tan as well, and repaired the cab sheet metal with aluminum diamond plate I had laying around (I know; its a little "blingy"). No leaks at all, and working great. Flushing the water out of the system was an expensive and dirty pain-in-the-wazoo, but it needed it. Now I just have to figure out how to tighten up the control linkages, and I'm back to 100%. Up next after that is replacing the old incandencent lights with LED's...
Yair . . . viking1 . Nine to see you back. That sure looks to be a handy machine. The military used to have them here but seldom do you see them in civilian hands. Cheers.
Indeed its been quite handy to have around. After I fix the hoe control linkages, I have to figure out why my left side track is binding a bit. Sharpening the teeth on sides of the big drive sprocket. I just replaced the rear roller and broken guard back there. Might have welded it (guard) together a bit off, as it seems to be catching.
Yair . . . viking1 . There is something amiss there. Hopefully it is just the guard but I would look into it ASAP . . . high priority in fact. Cheers.
Ya Scrubs; turned out to be the guard. It had been bent and broken off years ago and welded poorly. I rewelded and installed it after putting the new roller back on, but it was binding the chain because the angle wasn't right (and also the Loctite might have given out on a couple bolts). I'll grind back the shiny spot on the guard a good amount, and also grind off the sharp edges on the sprocket. You could shave with some of the teeth. Not good, but hopefully I caught it in time....
Yair . . . Good one viking1 . Looks like a low dollar fix. Cheers
One would have hoped that would be the case, but it turns out that ISNT the problem. I pulled the guard and cleaned up the sprocket, but when I run the machine, the middle of the left side track is pulling in hard towards the middle of the machine and binding things up. I didn't want to run it that way, so I shut it down and lifted up the back. All rollers are turning OK on the left side, but are getting pretty chewed up on the inside edge. I have no idea what the issue is; the very rearward left roller is new, and that seems to be where the problem starts. Going to start a new thread to see what feedback I can get....
Yair . . . viking1. I don't know your machine at all but wear patterns like that can occur when track frames get bent or out of alignment . . . also failing bearings on sprocket shaft only usually in that case they are leaking oil. Are you sure this is not a residual problem from when you started the thread about "noisy tracks"? I imagine that amount of scrubbing would be fairly noisy. In other words how many hours have you done since then what with all your other problems? Cheers.
Once the new turbo engine was in, I moved around 120 tons of material in 24 machine hours. Hard (but short) use, but this issue didn't exist then. The only thing I can think of is its either the extra hoe weight is overpowering the older 4 rollers, or a final drive bearing like you said (what with all the extra horsepower now). No oil leaking at the end by the sprocket though....
OK, ready to throw in the two new rollers, but I cant get the track adjuster to collapse. Removed the zerk fitting, have a come-along pulling it back, and am banging on it with a sledge but still no go. Anyone have any ideas?
Check and make sure the idler isn't crooked and binding in the frame, or otherwise stuck Put a timber between your bucket and idler and use bucket dump put your idler against a stump and push
Normally that's what I'd do Mitch, but I have the machine up in the air with the hoe stabilizers and front bucket with one roller removed. I THINK I might be able to squeak in the new roller tomorrow and button it back up to do that; hope so!!
Threw in the two new rollers (all three at the back are new now), but track still jumping to the inside of the inner flanges on occasion. I had a friend watch it as I was moving, and he said the track isn't even touching the two frontmost rollers. I guess I will try the weld build-up repair on the two I took off (bearings & seals still good). It ONLY does this on the left track on hard left turns it seems. The track adjuster still wont loosen w the zerk out; but track is at proper adjustment. Really strange (could it be a "stretched" track?). It DID move over 100 tons of dirt in the last two days while repairing a crossing, so I guess all is not lost.....
Can you post some close up pics of the rollers , rails , and how the rails set in the rollers , and bushings in the rails ? You may want to have a local psr guy look at the uc and actually measure it. I know these are harder on uc than the dozers are with the added weight on the front.
Machine is being transported home tomm DJ; will post pics then. It actually seems to be starting from the rear (problem just began after I reinstalled the hoe). What's a PSR?
Product support rep. , your dealer or most dealers will do a u/c inspection for free.
Viking, Do you know if the seller you got the 5.9 from has anymore engines for sale? My father inlaw has a 855 that is knocking and blowing smoke.........we were wondering if you'd be will to give a ballpark on what you had to give for the flebay motor and if you have any info. on what applications would swap in. Hope I don't have to deal with an engine swap/rebuild on my 450B dozer......it has the original case 4cyl. and I would like to find out if I can swap in a 3.9 cummins like the 450C's have in them. Thanks for any info. anyone can provide!
I got EXTREMELY lucky when I found my 6T590. It was all completely fresh (turbo included) for $1700. It came from a huge outfit that sells millions of $$ worth of machines per year, and I am assumming this engine was being used as a doorstop (or was just in the way).............