I'm working a job far off the beaten path with only a very wet way into the work area. Minimizing passes down the access trail with the rubber tired machine is essential, or I WILL end up sticking it in the swamp. I need about 750-1000 gallons of transfer tank capacity to put in my LGP tracked dumper to leave out in the work area. I've got tanks but I'm needing to repair and reline what I have, or else dump over $8k for a fuel trailer for what is a rare job. I don't need a fuel trailer that badly. Anyone have any experience cleaning out transfer tanks (250-500 gal sizes) and then installing a reline/sealant/barrier type product? I have some KBS Coatings products on order. I'm thinking about building a fixture to mount the tanks on so that they can be rotated easily in order to scrub them out and install the liquid sealant product. Any experience or ideas on this would be appreciated. I only have 2" NPT bung holes to provide access point to any of the tanks.
Can you even take a 1000 gallon tank full of diesel down that road? The diesel itself, will weigh about 7100 lbs. Then , how will you get diesel fuel delivered to the tank when a refill is needed? Just some more things to worry about!
Normally for proper access a tank will have 24" explosion proof type manhole/hatch. for ease of cleaning and installing lining. But the smallest tank I ever installed/weld one into was 2,500 gallon most were skid tanks 3,000 gallon and up.
It would be difficult to spray a liner without a manway. A hot water pressure wash and plenty of TSP or Simple Green would probably make it useable.
Used the KBS products to coat the inside of 2- 25 gal tanks for the lube skid we built. A lot smaller than what you are talking about but the product seemed to perform as advertised. Followed the directions for the 3 products and it took a minute but the coatings adhered well. This is what we ordered off the tall women's website - https://www.amazon.com/KBS-Coatings-53000-Sealer-Gallon/dp/B000IBEOQ2/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=kbs+coatings&qid=1705535873&sr=8-5 Kinda pricey for only 25 gallons of coating but worth it since we are putting fresh hydro and engine oil in the tanks.
Used to be involved in gas station sized tanks. Had some people want their smaller tanks done but usually the bottom is so rotted/rusted out there is no point? If it’s diesel why not get an IBC tote or rent a big transfer tank from a fuel delivery place?
I've got a 500 or 1000 gallon double wall tank sitting behind my shop. It came from a genset we sent away. If you want to come get it - you can bring it back when you are done with it. My local fuel supplier will bring a tank for nothing, if they get to sell you the fuel. All the local dirt guys just have a tank dropped at their jobsites. Maybe they will bring you one to put back there, and then just put three pickup tanks in the back of the dumper?
No real experience but a heated pressure washer and some time to clean up would do wonders and fuel filters on the way out of the tank.
I was going to mention going with an 31/Y IBC. They are getting popular for hauling fuel.
Why did they need coated? I fill dozens of tanks a week, they are all just raw mild steel or stainless.
Take your days fuel in with you. How much fuel do you need a day? For curiosity, what are they going to do with the land after clearing if its that swampy?
The dumper is a Yanmar C60R2 that will haul 6 tons or more of dirt/rock at about 4 psi fully loaded. It won't even notice the 1/2 load and the wet areas won't get trashed by that machine. I'm commuting back into the work area with the Polaris RZR which is also fairly low impact. No way my F550 makes it back into there. If I only need to refill every 5 or so days, that will work out great. I'm dealing with what I have to work with. I've repaired several questionable tanks over the years with good success. I don't trust a tote that could be compromised. As my fueler said, "a tote is good until it is not! Then you have problems." Unless I find something better than the typical plastic with metal cage totes we have around here, I'll stick to steel. My fueler did not have any tanks available right now as all of his are out on jobs. Thanks for the offer but too far away to justify. I'm making do with what I have available. As I said above, no tanks available at the moment. I'll be steaming the tanks today once I finish the last of the repairs. Dual filters on order to place immediately downstream of my air-powered diaphram pump. Air line on retractable reel mounted on the mulcher machine will power fuel pump and grease barrel and make it difficult for anyone to steal fuel. The only legal way into my work area for the public is via horse and they don't drink the diesel. I'm not familiar with the different models available. My fueler suggested one of the carbon steel totes but I have not seen any of those around here. My tanks have pin holes that I've repaired. The coating will stop the rust and seal off anything in the works or leaks that I may have missed. I'm burning about 20 gallons/hour average with this machine. I generally like to carry in 180-200 gallons per day. I am reclaiming fields that were allowed to get overgrown. I just have to get it clean enough to allow subsequent work with a bush hog so no fine detail work on this job. I am trying to work it back to the original tree lines where it's not too wet. Most of the fields are hard/dry enough to be worked without significant rutting by the tires, even at this time of the year. Right now, I am considering welding on some 3/4" NPT pipe flange bases to the center points of the ends of the 2 tanks I'm working on. I'll thread in some 6" or longer nipples into those flanges and then hang the tanks via straps on a frame that will allow me to rotate the tanks for coating. If I adjust one strap tighter than the other, I can add a pitch to control my flow while rotating the product within. I've also considered making a frame to do the same as the straps and then a quick couple base on that frame/fixture to attach to the excavator with the Rototilt coupler. I can plumb in a hydraulic motor and chain drive too continously rotate the tanks to spin in the coating and control flow directions with ease with such a method. Sort of depends on how long this weather keeps me down at the shop. The fuel drinker. From a past job a few years ago making a thick mess into a residential plot. The Barman (drink distributor): from a past job shuttling rip rap down a 35 degree slope to the waterfront.
We fab'd them up out of raw plate steel.
My fuel trailer is a 500 gal propane tank that I mounted on a walking tandem frame like they use on dry fertilizer carts. Originally I bolted a regular 500 gal fuel tank on the frame but I had trouble with the tanks cracking where the stands are welded to the tank and would start to leak. Since I switched to the propane tank I have had no problems. It's not fancy but basically does the same job as the $6-$8,000 fuel trailers. I might have $1,000 wrapped up in it. I was a little leery about rust ect so I put a gate valve in the bottom so I could drain a little out occasionally. Maybe I got lucky but there has never been anything but clear fuel every time I have opened it. Only negative thing I can think of is that around 40-45 mph it gets to bouncing pretty bad when it is empty. Otherwise it pulls great once you get past that.
Evidently I am a slow typer. You could still use a 500 gal propane tank and set it in your dumper.
I've considered it. I actually have an old one here with a full pump system - it was an old propane filling station unit. I've also got an old air tank of unknown volume but it's very thick and very heavy. I'm trying to get closer to 800-1000 gal. 2 round tanks of different sizes leaves me enough room in the bed to add the air greaser keg. And they are easy to move about when empty.
If you have the time I wonder if you can buy one of those clean out hatches they put on hydraulic tanks, just one bolt on the center. I'd just clean fix and run it, it's steel so it will always leak eventually or cost you money in fuel system components in the long run. Save up or build a aluminum.
I've coated car gas tanks with epoxy. For a cylindrical tank, I'd rock it back and forth, so the liquid flows end to end, and then rotate an inch and repeat to insure covering the whole inside. rotating won't force the liquid to cover the whole surface. The ends will be somewhat harder to insure complete coverage.
Yes, as are most tanks
I wouldn't rely on a coating to seal leaks. In a commercial setting, almost always need a 2 wall tank. The cost of a spill is crazy. 1000 gallons to clean up would be well into the 6 figures, possibly 7 figures. We had a spill at work of around 40 gallons, cost about $80,000 to clean.
IDK, these 31/Y IBCs are pretty tough. They are the only small portable tank, over 115 gallons, certified to be transported on the road with hazmat inside.
I stock DOT406 and non dot approved 16” weld on hatches. They are not that expensive. Not trying to sell one. Just sayin’ they are easily available from Betts.
Those old propane tanks are very skookum. I just looked at a 320 that had been converted to contain diesel. Someone had tactfully installed a hatch on top with a liquid fill. I was impressed. Not UL listed, no ASTM, no insurance company will touch it or fire Marshall will bless it. Great for the backwoods.
Getting in and out of 16" with gear on is pretty tough. I wish I had photos of all the 10 to 12,000 gallon tanks we built for fuel and aircraft deicing fluid, Mountain Oil had the regional contract for deicing fluid-Arco. Seattle, Portland, crap every major runway in 9 states had several of our tanks setting on the tarmacs, construction companies like De Attley had I don't know many 10,000 skids with rollover legs we built. ---all built from used buried gas station tanks.
That’s right. Not many fellas can get through a 16” dome, in 2024. lol Too much high fructose corn syrup and seed oil. Some of the baffles in older tanks are smaller than 16”. A 20” isn’t a problem, for most. That’s part of my secret to success. Not many people fit, those that do fit, often get claustrophobic, or have made better choices and avoid the #tanklife. I like tanks. I can talk about tanks all night.
This is fun. I’ve just started dealing with these Snyder Ultratainers. They are HDTP. Hella stout and UN/D.O.T. certified UN 31H1. About 2/3 the weight of an equal size metal tote. Can’t haul class 3 in them because there is no way to bond. Great for acids and caustics. Easy to clean.
Some have fits.
They think they are ok until they get one or two baffles in, and then ftfo. Then, they scrape off chunks of hide trying to force their way out. lol. Slow is fast. Hopefully, they figure that out during confined space training.
Closest I get to a "confined space" is my wife's Honda.
I wouldn't rely on a coating to seal leaks. In a commercial setting, almost always need a 2 wall tank, and sometimes even a containment pond. The cost of a spill is crazy. 1000 gallons to clean up would be well into the 6 figures, possibly 7 figures. We had a spill at work on a dirt lot of around 40 gallons, cost about $80,000 to clean. I did a . I have a friend who perhaps, in theory, lost way more with blown hoses and lines and just kicked sawdust on it... let it go back to mother earth. I've heard of that outfit.
One of the few outfits making the effort to keep their totes current. Good for them. One of the producers on the slope recently got pinched by the PHMSA for an Expired IBC. Did not help that it was dropped and caused a spill.
Inside a 4 compartment transport doing visual.
I wasn't aware they expired, ill have to check into that. That apply just for HAZMAT or lubes too? Had one come back to us that'd apparently been setting "out back" for a while, was last inspected in 1984. Heard about that. They came by to pickup a couple totes and the expeditor used enough straps it could have secured a D10! Half the time it's "meh, just going a short ways down the road, it'll be fine"... uhhh. ok. I'd at least put ONE strap!
I'm not using the KBS Coating to seal current leaks. I've already taken care of those and pressure tested the vessels to make sure that they are leak-free before I add the coating and paint the exteriors. I've been at it like a dentist....deep prodding and hard poking any potential cavities that appeared on the bottom of the tanks. Anything weak let the probe penetrate. Those pinholes were enlarged and sealed off. The process of the coating should stop any internal rust, seal any cavities that would eventually spring a seaping leak and provide a clean coating to stop any future rusting failures. To me, this is an added step of precautionary measure, not a repair type solution. If I get another 5-10 years use out of these tanks, I'm happy. Besides, if ****, fuel will be better than cash. Diesel, if properly treated, will last a very long time in comparison to gasoline. Tanks are a good investment.
Yep easily $1000/cuft and the inspector is the one who decides how much to dig up and they’re always buddys to the the remediation company.
They fall under 49 CFR § 173.35 and require re-test every 30 months if they are in hazmat service. Lube totes don’t have to be inspected, but the data plate has to be covered for non-spec service. There are still a few pre-UN totes floating around here and often they are labeled DOT 56 or 57. Maybe like the 1984 one you mentioned. The red headed step child. They sort of fall under the DOT instead of the PHMSA.
Interesting story. The second in command with the PHMSA came to Alaska for a visit last fall. Straight from DC with his Entourage, dressed in skinny jeans, stocking cap and Northface Puffys purchased at the Airport retail shops. Apparently, Saltchuk invited them on a tour of the road system. My take away is their major concern is the slope. PHMSA will take notice when a tanker flips over on the Parks Hwy, but their main focus is the slope. Especially, pipelines. Much easier agency to deal with vs FMVSA from my point of view. They probably have their hands full dealing with the majors vs some mom & pop transport company.
Thought I should update what was done to salvage my leaking tanks. I have not had time to install the coating within the tanks but I do have them fuel tight and worthy of use. When I have time available, I can do the coating work. I poked and prodded every potential leak cavity with a probe. Those that were able to be punctured with hand force on a sharp pick were enlarged until solid edges were found. Those holes were then filled with JB Tank Weld putty or Steel Stick putty after a thorough cleaning/sanding of the outer areas. After all of that was done, the problematic areas were then overcoated with a fiberglass reinforced filler. I've had good luck with this method on other tanks in the past. I had some old drive sprockets, bearings and shafts that I purchased long ago for projects. I fabbed up some mounting plates on the vertical mill and worked the shafts as needed on the lathe. I tack welded the mounting plates to the estimated centers of mass on the end plates of the tanks. I had an old square drive reversible motor that I salvaged years ago that worked at the rotation drive motor with a speed around 10 rpm's with the sprockets that I had in stock. I used an old, broken 3/4" drive socket as an adapter to the motor drive. In order to compensate for the off balance, I used a cargo strap and suitable weight to get a close balance of the rotation. I set about 10 lengths of old 13" safety curtain chains into the tank with some Super Clean detergent and commenced rotation for about an hour to knock loose any existing rust scale and debris. I machined one end of the bearing holder to allow pitch adjustments so with a light pitch, the chains were started on one end of the tank and slowly advanced to the other end on each rotation. Once the chains reached the end, I would lift the tank and reset them to the starting end, then repeat the process. This ensured good coverage of the mechanical descaling. After the descaling/rough cleaning process, I steam cleaned the interior of the tanks with sewer jet nozzles that spray in multiple directions at once and force feed themselves into such cavities. Tanks were rinsed and washed multiple times until completely clean. I set up a Chinese diesel air heater into the tanks to dry them completely, blowing in both hot air as well as exhaust gasses to completely dry the interiors. This would have been the ideal time to coat the internals of the tanks but weather and time were not on my side. I needed the tanks on the job ASAP once the weather cleared. Tanks were given a good coat of paint. Much easier to paint a rotatable tank on a jig! I wound up with a 300 and a 500 to work with. This was sufficient to get the deep woods section of the project completed in 1 fueling round with the Yanmar carrier. I plumbed the tanks together with individual shut off valves on each to share the 35 gpm ARO diaphram pump that I had kicking around the shop. The Barko has an air compressor and a hose reel already installed so there was an easy, convenient power supply for the fuel and grease pumps. I found an old towbar that my father had used years ago with the motor home. It worked perfect to drag the buggy out so I did not have to walk a mile back out to the truck. The tanks have been leak free and this solved a lot of potential problems with high ground pressure travel through a soft area. Had I needed to run the Barko through that swamp multiple times, the landowner would have had serious environmental impacts and required road/trail repairs. So far, the job is going well with only one hydraulic hose failure and replacement of the AC compressor on the 937. The new tires on the Barko make a big difference in muddy conditions and don't seem to tend to rut as bad.
Very nice, one thing good about sharing a pump and being mounted on the carrier you can park it at a angle to get every last drop out.