Looking at replacing some dead or nearly so Japanese Tier 0 diesels in rubber tracked dumpers with something newer and readily available, preferably used takeout. I have specific goals in mind or I would be using Tier 2 Cummins N14 or Deere or CAT industrial which is a no brainer. The end game is something in the range of 450-475-500 hp, driving hydraulic pumps and meeting Tier 3 specs. The cummins ISM with EGR but prior to the DPF (about 2004-2007?) strikes me as a good candidate with the added bonus of being available with Jake brakes which oddly enough would be handy in this application for long downgrades. Now I know the highway regs and nonroad regs are different but I'm hoping I can get close enough to satisfy CARB should the need arise to rent/sell these machines into Kommiefornia at some point. Also, I have no idea yet how the torque curves compare, etc. Just thought I would throw it out here and see if i get any feedback or ideas, just recently I have been informed I do not actually know everything, crazy huh? LOL Two additional bits of trivia: I do not like CAT ACERT, and for you Detroit fans, think Series 60, mmmmkay? Thoughts?
Cummins engines modular design would be they way to go IMHO. Operator gauges would be easy with a Murphy cluster off the CAN. A chipper type ecu program might be better suited but would not have electronic engine brake.
CARB dose not have a problem with using truck engines (hwy application engines), they even pay for most of the repower cost, we've used Detroit 60 series, Cummins and Deutz to repower Cats... 60 series are bullet proof and the Jake is awesome on 660s, Cummins has complete electronic modular assemblies. To make $$$$ then Cat ACERT is the way to go, you purchase a kit from Cat Dealer, then do your own wiring looms, return the Cat loom for full retail cost and pocket the difference, same applies for Hard Nose-Radiator Assembly, have your own radiator aftercooler made, return Cat's and pocket over $15thou.
Good points, I forgot to mention it but the most likely control setup would be Parker IQAN so a canbus based control system is pretty much essential, but then Tier 2 and up usually are, yeah? It wouldn't be elegant but if needed I could program the IQAN to take care of the Jake.
Now that's interesting, sounds like you've done quite a few? Where could I find more information on what CARB will accept, or a contact there if you know? We'll be upgrading these here in Oregon for rental or resale, I just want to be able to send them South if I get a rental opportunity and I know they're a bit stuffy about having the emissions stickies all present and correct.
for wiring harness there is a company called custom harrness that can build a harrness from any motor to meet up with any truck or machine i have used them a couple of times
Oil scavenge system Oil system was one of the first issues we dealt with on the dozer repower project . keep in mind off road equipment gets on some pretty steep grades that compared to a road truck . We went with a belt dive hydro pump to circulate the oil , also had to weld a baffle in the oil pan . Mine is rear sump so without the scavenge system we would loose oil pressure in a downhill position . We actually lifted a running truck from the rear with crane and it lost oil pressure around 30 degrees . After that test we knew for sure the dozer needed a scavenge pump . HeavyEquipmentForums
We typically build our own harnesses when needed, but thanks for that I will keep them in mind, especially as they live in the same small town I do! Who woulda thunk? LMAO! :tong
True dat, when speccing new engines we typically go for 45 degrees any angle if available. The QSX series will have that capability, I wonder if the ISX and QSX are cousins enough for parts to interchange, I think so but haven't gone that far on research yet. Just found out last night that the QSX 15 had the Intebrake as an option, go figure. I think basically the QSX has different cams, maybe pistons... not nearly as many around for sale used though.
Where I work at we have Oshkosh front dump mixers that we hang out in some rough terrain. I've seen drivers hit some slopes that were Jeep steep and not bat a eye or lose oil pressure. These have ISM pre egr engines with 13 gallon oil pans. I think mixers have a little different program than a lot of trucks so this could be a donor source. Hit up your local ready mix plants bone yard and see what you may be able to score. Or a California auction as these older units are becoming illegal to run on the road. Or maybe we should head out there to Cali., we still run some old sidewinder Macks from the Miami Vice era
I'm aiming for Tier 3, so I'm pretty sure EGR is a must, and it seems the pre EGR ISX models had cam issues? Trying to thread a needle and I don't know for sure how big the eye is yet, LOL. Funny thing about slopes, sometimes they look scary steep but when measured really aren't. 30 degrees in a machine makes me plenty nervous and that's what our machines are rated for. 45 degrees is hands and knees stuff usually, you probably can't walk up it. In roof terms 45 degrees is a 12/12, or it's a 1:1 slope, or 100% grade.
Does a cracked exhaust manifold near the air cleaner inlet count as egr? If so I can help you out!
LOL! Reminds me of the time the lowboy driver moved the D6 and started the engine with the stack duct taped all up... exhaust backfed and melted the plastic swirlers in the precleaner, the end result was not pretty....
The isx or qsx difference are all depend on CPL of Engine some are really close . For your dump trucks would not make a difference 1 must is make sure engine has two engine oil cooler cores have to check by s/n to be sure if have one or two not bad to add one if need two On QSX side CPL 2825 is a very good CPL cause amount of soft ware base programs we have always been able to match CPL 2825 to any sort of drive train from hydros on tile plows to AG /construction tractor power shift or manual . The 2825 also has quite a few power curve choices also . Most repowers we do are all new engines and cost wise we can sell a QSX for only few thousand more than QSM so most go with QSX .Celect n/14 m11 not to bad but no 1939 com. For gauge some Celect plus will but not all . You can build harness better an cheaper than buying we have found . Murphy has gauge that is easy if have 1939com out of ecm cause two wires give you all gauges an warning lights plus fault code read out. Cummins repowers is a common thing around our place in form of complete job or just engine /part or labor sales. I did run happen run 6 hours round trip in service truck today to finish wireing isx for guy today. just some thoughts I had when driveing today
8922659, thanks for the input, you guys are really adding to my notes!
What brand and how many hp engine you replacing
As far as using series 60 I would stay away from the DDEC 5 tier 3 engine those were sorry engines. The DDEC 3's and 4's very reliable. The 5's we had-had major issues with the EGR system. Turbos, VPOD's and those engines would run 48 lbs boost. It was too much. We had constant piston liner, head gasket issues and CAC's cracking. No joke we lost 30 some radiators most covered by warranty. Because of system being pressurized. Don't know if you needed that info but there it is. Truck Shop
That's not really relevant as the intended usage includes the capability to run equipment mounted on the back and the horsepower requirement is based on that. Don't mean that to sound condescending, it's just that we're modifying as well as repowering so the numbers have to change. Typically though either HINO EF750-TE V8 diesel at about 330 hp or Cummins N14 @425 hp We did a couple about ten years ago with Deere 6125's at 475hp, worked great.
It all helps! I wasn't really looking at Detroit since they don't seem to be plentiful on the used market, at least that I can see. The more feedback I get about various makes, models, and years the better informed I will be. When I started looking into used Tier 3 engines and researching reliability I got a real shock about pretty much all brands I can tell you. I kinda knew Tier 4i was a nightmare, I'm thinking 4F must be a disaster waiting to happen.
For regulations etc start here: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/ordiesel/ordiesel.htm# I would call the hotline to inquire about importing off-road repowered used tracked AG? - equipment. Probably Minimum Tier 3, my reg interpretation; registered fleets can’t add any existing S. Cal equipment that wasn’t issued Off-Road # by Jan 1, 2012 cut off date. Not sure about importing repowers; add 500 fleet Hp with yesterday’s Tier 3, that might be sticky!
Running equipment off back i have found some highway ecm calibrations will only run percentage of there rated hp in pto mode . Ran in to this on a crane truck where lower drive engine ran upper crane also . Had to go to vocational type or off highway ecm calibration to make work
I can see where that would be an issue, however since these are hydrostat drives and the hydraulic controller controls engine speed via the J1939, I would think it would work okay, just the one speed control signal for all functions, no PTO mode? We do run a foot pedal for speed control but it's not connected directly to engine speed, it's for the hydrostats.
Thanks! I had looked at the web site but like most government sites (they're here to help us) I had no clue where to start.
The more you read on the CARB site, the dumber and more confused you will feel.
Actually I don't, but I think they are? These regs have more holes in them than Swiss cheese and they smell about the same, LOL. Another government agency whose whole purpose is to collect enough fees to continue to exist and bloat with more clueless employees.
These are the good ole days? I don't know about that so much, makes me yearn for the BC Cummins and Silver 92 days.
Pulled out all Silver92s & repowered with BC Cummins because the 92s couldn't pass snap smoke test.
How about the spaghetti machine I asked about ? (the Iveco engines)
If refueling wouldn't be such a hassle, a CNG fueled motor would make a good California special. Just a thought.
Seems like a throttle delay or anaeroid or something like that would have been cheaper and easier. Later model 92s did not smoke that much.
How about propane ? Much easier to find.
Good engines are available via repower salvage for $500 green cash...trucks run under Construction Truck Exemption non-Tier engines
Absolutely! For busses or trucks working out of a terminal they return to every night CNG is perfect. If they had affordable portable fueling rigs for construction sites, converting the fleet would be the way to go! I'm sure they have their issues as well, but no DPF, no DEF, exhaust system 1/3 the size.... cool.
I think they're a good engine, but for my purposes, not readily available at a bargain price?
"Vinny" can get you one...cheap... If Case is putting them in ag tractors over here, I would think parts should be somewhat easy to come by, Whole take outs, maybe in a few more years. The tractor that was at my place was a 2012 year, so some should be hitting the salvage yards by now.
How about a Cali. made 1091 Hall-Scott that runs on propane? Oh wait you wanted a bargain! Seriously though Digger Doug has a good point about propane, just a thought.
I agree, and if I run across the right fleet customer I'm willing to go wherever they desire (more or less legally) but since I may end up holding title to these and just renting them wherever needed, until further notice I think diesel is still king, yeah?
I'm in agreement about the diesel efficiency aspect trust me, I'm just thinking of a work around to the entire mileage killing and maintenance hassle that is today's modern engine. I was just thinking out loud about CNG and the "green" aura that goes with it. The Hall-Scott, yeah I was kidding, it would be pretty cool though in a crawler dump.
Pratt and Whitney PT6A turbine running on grain alcohol?