My top rollers are frozen with packed mud and ice, on the 240. The mud is frozen hard so removing it impossible. I could wait for a thaw, but it could be a while. Suggestions?
My old tractor has a hydraulic tank that freezes (Bout the size of a bread box) I wrap a tarp or garbage bag around it and put a heater underneath. Or some times I put a propane heater pointed at the case. Be very carefully of fire and/or melting the tarp, thats why I prefer the electric heater method.
blowtorch or steam pressure washer and a digging bar. Or wait till spring... The best method, dig it out before it freezes... if possible.
When I was in northern Alberta we used a tarp and a blowtorch in a piece of stove pipe to heat up a frozen truck to start it. I remember a fellow that left his small dozer to warm up and it caught on fire because of grass etc that was still in the tracks from a warmer time. This will help to remind you to clean your tracks out at quitting time.
Our tracked pavers and rollers freeze to the ground in the winter if you don't put everything up on plywood. If we're doing some dirt work in the winter we bring some wood with us because the roller can peel off a small sliver of plywood with no problem and go about working. It's a cheap way to save yourself headaches in the future. When we've had our pavers freeze up we've just salted around them and they free up in a day or two.
hammer drill... heaters & blankets.. and shoot the tracks every night... if possible as much as practical during the day... a dead hoe makes no money
yup... clean them everynight and use a little blow torch to warm them up in the morning...
Been there done that! torpedo heater works great with the tarp, but go slow let it heat slowly so you don't damage the seals (learned this the hard way..) you can also use a spud bar to break it up to..then you can appriciate just how light a track spade really is! LOL good luck
tiger torch to free up the rollers, Herman Nelson under a tarp or parachute to thaw it out completely then chop, chop, dig, dig. If your working in runny mud all the time park it at night after having cleaned the tracks on some old railroad ties. But if you can during the day pack the tracks with snow which will help keep them from packing up with mud. But always keep a propane tiger torch around and a Herman Nelson heater and an old tarp or parachute.... oh and a couple Mexican draglines.
I meant tiger torch not blow torch.
Ok, so i guess there is no better ideas than the one i had. Here is a quick pic, the tarp is a good idea, will have to find one for tomorrow. Thanks a lot guys. btw, to add insult to injury, the drive in the pic dumped its oil while i was waiting on the torch. I was expecting it, it likes to do that this time of year. I have learned that the mud/water gets into the seal area, and prevents the floating seal from floating. Move the track even a little (thats what i did) and the contents dump out on the ground quickly. This isn't the first time, so i know i can just top it up, run it to warm it up, and it'll be good, till next time. The only thing is, can i trust my operator to notice it???!!!!
I know in my area Princess Auto has had a sale on canvas tarps which are more resilient to cuts and tears and might not burn as fast as the plastic ones. As for those final drive seals constantly having mud freezing, thawing, and packing takes quite the toll on those seals. I use to work for a company where two of our operators (father and son.lol) conveniently forgot how to use a track shovel so when the snow they supposedly packed into they're tracks thawed they would pack up with mud and eventually cause the seal to leak. They figured if the rollers were still rolling nothing was wrong. Well to make a long drawn out story short Toromont made a killing cleaning tracks (I think about $500) and replacing the final drive seals on those machines. So if your operator is anything like that I wouldn't count on having oil to long in those final drives.
When I was in the Army we used to throw a used parachute over the scrapers / loaders / dozers... Then we pumped the Herman Nelson pipe under it it would inflate the parachute & make it about 70 degrees when is was 20+ below out side. 47th Engineers in Fairbanks...
This is what we use. We keep a 20lb tank in the truck.
Am i supposed to be preheating the drives to warm the seals in the this weather? I didn't read anything like that in the manual. :beatsme
I guess all of us southerners are at an advantage when it comes to rollers freezing. I bet you guys end up with a lot of flat spots on your rollers.
I think that the seals would be warmed by exercising the hydraulics after engine warmup. I was told to start with the bucket function and progress to the stick and boom. Finally, lift each track and spin each way. If the machine walks a little ways before digging everything should be nice and warm. How cold is your day out in Ontario?
Lol, no I've never heard of anything like that, but you should be trying to keep mud from packing into the tracks when it gets cold. Sometimes up start up it's not a bad idea to lift up one side and let the tracks spin in the air to circulate the oil in the final drive and in the hydraulics to help it warm up. How cold has it been where you live? Here it's been pretty mild as of late.
Its been just below freezing here, -2 or -3 in the afternoons, -6 -10 at night. Not cold enough to drive frost into the ground, but cold enough so that the little bits of mud and snow that do get on the undercarriage are nearly froze by the end of the day. So it tends to accumulate over a couple days.
So is this a constant thing that your blowing final drive seals? The company I was working for had 320c's and one of the co-workers had a theory that when the other guys would use the straight travel pedal along with one of the other travel pedals it was sending jolts through the travel circuits and would rupture the seal or cone seal. But I think it was also coming down to the guys not cleaning the mud out of the undercarriage and letting it freeze. Usually what I would do after the machine sat in the shop (we had a heated floor) overnight I would clean whatever mud I could out of the tracks and if I had time even powerwash the drives. That may of been overkill but I never had any problems after doing that....well other than getting covered in nice sloppy mud. lol
One theyre clean coat them with calcium.Buy it from a tire shop its 2dollars a gallon and put it in a weed sprayer , coat your uc with it and the dirt will freeze but wont stick to steel . Thats not a deere 240, so what is it
Lol I remember a job i did in a canal a couple years ago and we pushed through -45 and had the top rollers freezing while we were running. Calcium and shoveling works great! Not recomended, but if i am alone i used to pick a track off the ground and put sompthing small under the pedal and idle the hoe so the track would barely move so you can get out and check ur rollers. When you get in or out simply lift and lower the safety lever to engage tracks. So like i said its not sompthing i would recomend doing....
Calcium, good idea. The drive seals are weird on this unit. They don't blow, they just get out of shape and stop sealing when it's cold. There is another thread on here from last year, where we washed her to store it for the winter. So it was completely clean when i parked it in the yard. The next day it froze really hard overnight, and there was a big pool of oil under one of the drives. We tore it apart, and found nothing wrong. And then beyond belief, while we were putting the track back on (moving it back and forth a little, in the shed) the oil dumped out of the other drive. Mechanic was shocked. I learned from the first one, so i left it, topped up the oil in the spring, and its been fine till now. Crazy.
Electric frost blankets work great. Drape one over each track and then drape a tarp (preferably the frost blanket type) over top of that and down to the ground all the way around the machine. A couple hours and you'll be free. A couple more hours and the mud will be thawed enough to remove, which is what you really want. Otherwise give the operator a hot water pressure washer and a rain suit. Tell him he can't stop until the tracks are clean or the pressure washer will freeze up an then you have another problem. After three hours washing in the cold I guarantee you the tracks will get cleaned the next time. Pete
If your pads dont have large spec holes in them they will pack with ice and or mud putting excessive force on the track idler and drive sprocket assembly causeing the seal to wear or rip on one side, common problem road builders ran into here mid 90s with hitachi ex270s with triple grouser street pads that come factory on most excavators. Watch your track tension and spin clean at the start and end of every shift, more as needed.
This morning i got a couple gallons of calcium and a sprayer. I thawed the rollers with the torch, topped up the oil in the problem drive. It was down just a little bit. Scraped out as much mud as would come out, and sprayed everything with calcium. At the end of the day a lot of the mud had gone soft, and really runny. I scooped out as much as possible, but i am sure the calcium help a lot. Yesterday there was no way that stuff was going to come out. Today i was able to pull it out as if it was above 0. Still watching the oil levels really close.
I dont just come on here to blow hot Air !!! Glad i can save some greif for you
I pity anyone who has to deal with this crap on a routine basis. Last year i parked the hoe when the weather got frosty, this year i just know i'm going to wish i did.
Thats why i sit in my pickup in the winter so i dont have those big ugly tracks to shovel every nite. I used to hate running a 8r or a 450clc, there is just wayy to much mud in those tracks. I wish someone would invent a ejector so yo didnt have to shovel them
suprised i havent seen it on here, but i just put a little diesel around the rollers and light it, and try to keep them shoveled out
Its calling for a thaw this week, so i will get at cleaning her up for sure. Also, i will spray her down with calcium, maybe diesel too. But this thread begs the question, how many operations do curtail some or all work because of these problems. Call me crazy, but my idea would be to design the track frames so you could run coolant through them. Hook them up to a coolant heater of some sort and circulate hot coolant through them. The mud would be gone in no time.
we never dont work if they are frozen, if we cant get them thawed out, break the tracks loose and get 'em turning and usually by the end of the day between the heat from the machine and sun, and the vibration they will start to turn
we used a rubber exhaust hose over the exhaust pipe to warm up the engine compartment on machines in the winter on bobcats. You could use the exhaust of the machine to thaw them out and warm the machine up at the same time. what about buying one of the heater trailers with the two foot around hoses they stick in the larger machines to warm them up?
We shovel tracks every nite and spray with calcium every morning and i rarely have a frozen roller, Make sure you take your finger and run it around the back side of the roller where it joins to the track frame (where it spins) and it will take nothing to break them free in the morning The diesel fuel is a no no from a enviromental aspect, if i did it i definately wouldnt tell anyone
Calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, and almost any de-icer have environmental concerns attached too. But I do like the suggestion. I have never had to stop work because of the effects of weather on my machines (unless they just won't start). I also have never had the mud freeze to the UC during the work day. If it's that cold I doubt there would be any mud anywhere. Obviously, you have seen first hand how important it is to clean the UC at the end of each work day, when you are getting freezing temps at night. What's the saying..."An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". Be sure to keep the track tension on the loose side when the working in mud. Better too loose than too tight, but you probably already know this. That drive seal is a weak spot in the planetary design, IMO. I had one leak on my 315 once. It cost over $3k to have the dealer fix it. Knowing what little I do about the system I doubt it makes any difference what travel pedal, or combination there of, that you use. They send oil to the track motor, and that should have no effect on the planetary seal, or the oil pressure (which should only be the same as atmospheric, with slight variation do to temperature changes) in it. As far as cleaning the UC, this will have a minimal impact, on the seal, because you can't really clean that area as it's a pretty tight fit behind the sprocket/planetary housing and the car body. Even removing the back cover will only expose the track motor, and the track frame still blocks access to the seal area. Some have said pressure wash this area but I'm not sure how well this will work either since the pressure would get lost trying to get around corners, and into the area that needs cleaning, again, IMO. I have been told that it's the freezing and thawing action of the mud that gets past the rubber o-ring (that actually does not seal anything-it simply applies pressure to keep the two steel sealing rings together, which is what keeps the oil inside). When the mud freezes it puts un-even pressure on the sealing rings which allows oil to escape. To my knowledge it's the same for all planetaries. Isn't that one of the reasons that Cat made the "high drive" undercarriage on most of it's dozers? This leak has only happened to me once (thank God) and no problems since (knock on wood). I do think about it every time in work in the winter mud. I was doing an early winter, wetlands restoration project (just before the seal leaked) so I was cramming a lot of mud in the undercarriage. It had to be done in the winter because the ground had to be frozen just to be able to work without sinking in the mud. You had to plan things around the temps as things would get a pretty soft by the end of the day.
Never failed me...
Stupid me, using a shovel! It sure was a nice respite to get those warm warm temps the other day. Got a chance to get most of the mud out. Today it froze up again and i'm back at spraying the calcium chloride. It does work, cuz i was able to bust off big chunks of frozen mud tonight. Seems like if you get the calcium onto the steel under the mud, the ice doesn't stick. Rather, it sticks, just not so bad you can't bust it off. I spray the chloride before working in the morning, and after cleaning at night. I still have to heat the rollers in the morning. It only takes a bit of frozen mud to prevent them from turning. It is pretty straight forward to just heat them in the morning with the big burner. It only takes a few minutes per roller(provided all the mud is cleaned out the night before) I have been keeping track, and ever since the weather has dropped below freezing, my efficiency has dropped to 70%. That is to say, chargable clock hours (moving dirt) is only 70% of total clock hours on the excavator. The rest is spent dickin around with propane, shovels, prybars, and chloride. Also, since i have to get the pickup(with all the tools in it) to the excavator, i have to drive it to where the truck can reach. I spend a few minutes warming up, a few minutes cycling the hydraulics all around, then running each track, morning and night. Checking final drive real close for leaks. Add to that all the cleaning each day, and it adds up to about and hour 40 minutes each day. Winter is proving to be a whole lot of dickin around. A pic of the rig i use to help with the cleaning. Works great, and i got the idea on HEF! Thanks everyone :drinkup
DGODGR In a canal with water you always have mud on the bottom once you break through the ice ontop and when you get Up out of the watter it freezes instantly at -45 or so , but that is one of those exceptionaly miserable jobs that was a pain in the butt, and like i said before i will swear by calcium in buckets, truck boxes and u/c
No doubt never leaving them like that is the best medicine, but stuff happens and school costs money. Like everyone said heat will surley help. By the pic though, Iv'e seen way worse. A good long solid bar with a tip, and someone you can trust to run the sledge hammer and you'll have that moving shortly. Once you get through in one spot and that bar hits the metal of the track guards, it will send shocks throught the metal and the other frozen junk will start to loosen and come out in big chunks. Between logging with Cat 227's and road building with D7's & D8's in Upper MI we have had to alot of it. As far as the finams in the morning, lifting one track at a time and slowly running it in the air with no load on it will help to warm them up. Just not full throttle or pedal, or you'll have blown lines and seals.
we had a water truck rust through the steel tank in no time running calcium chloride in it. how much does it increase the rust on something being sprayed on it? not trying to argue just wondering because it may out way its self in the future due to a rusted out undercarriage. ;beatsme
I'm thinking the mud should pretty much clean off the calcium each time you put it on. Give it a power wash in the spring. Shouldn't be too bad, and it sure makes the impossible possible.
I havent ever noticed any diference on the rust end of things because like watglen said the mud takes the calcium away. not to mention it takes a couple weeks to rust through 1'' steel u/c unlike pickups and such
Things are going well here. Ive gotten used to cleaning and heating and checking gear oils. Calcium is working great to keep it clean. One question, i did notice a small flat spot on one roller. How do we deal with that? How much of a problem is it?
The flat spot will cause accelerated wear to the rails on the U/C. How much depends on how bad the flat spot. Even if it's pretty bad you should be OK to run until you can do repairs in the shop or after the temps get a little more reasonable.
sorry no easy answer, for laziness, guess its time for a tiger torch and a bar, maybe then you'll learn to clean your tracks.
Ouch Dude, no need for that attitude
Been there done that a few times. Boss filled em heavily on the 235D and it took 2 of us a day and a half with jackhammers, hilti drills and flamo's to get them cleaned. Lesson Learned. Shovel them daily no matter what, have whoever fills them help clean them or pay the Overtime to clean them, and think when traveling through mud to avoid if possible turning and filling them heavily. Some guys (not directing to anyone imparticular) dont think about it when they churn and turn in the smag, then work till quitting time and bail as soon as the clock hits 5. I raise he11 when people leave my tracks full. I quit half hour early or stay late to clean then. Most bosses do not want to lose that production or pay the overtime, but its part of working in winter. Some understand it, some dont, till it's down in the shop and their really PAYING... But of course, then its the operators fault..
I dont do it any more but my grandpa was cheap and used to hardsurface or weld the flatspot on the roller and grind it round again, it does work but probably not a great idea for a newer machine
I looked at a John Deere 120 C last week that was for sale, at a rental yard. They had charged the people that rented an extra $500 to clean it up. They had a few warm days to clean it but didn't do anything it was frozen to the ground. The rain and warm had melted the mud a little, then refrozen. You could hardly find the step to get up in the machine, it was so bad. I had driven two hours to look at the excavator, and the thumb had been removed, brackets torched off, and the bucket and boom pins were all loose. There was no way I was going to try and track the machine, but by then I had seen enough that I wasn't interested any more. The machine only had 3300 hours, pretty much a waste of my day.