Wondering about the tracked skid steers and how people think they compare with a wheel skid steer with tracks over the wheels? Any experience with both? What is difference in performance? What is difference in fuel usage? What is difference in the cost to acquire new machine?
I have one of each. I like the rubbber tracks by far the most. No more flat tires with the rubber tracks.
depends on the type of terrain, and work you are doing
You can avoid flat tires with solid or foam filled tires. There are several different designs. CTLs (rubber tracked "skid steer") run $10-15k more than a comparable SS and have significantly higher maintenance with the undercarriage. From what I understand, you can expect big $$$ maintenance at around 1-2K hours on a CTL. OTOH, they are supposed to be a bit more stable and have more traction. The cost is what kept me away from one but if you need it, they can be worth it. Ken
Experience I've had with both: -CTL, MTL VTS will out perform a SS on many applications -Initual cost of the tracked system is a major neg -Maintenance on certain track system can be very high -Very terrain/application dependent whether the added performance outweighs the higher costs of the tracked system Remember the track systems on skid steers were designed to function on tasks varying from lawns to forests......Not many systems that are designed to work on golf coarse last very long in the woods.
Can you explain further? Are you saying that CTLs poorly designed for work in the woods? Thanks, Ken
Saying that some of the track issues are that ss are not application specific designed..... used for many tasks.....or maybe better put they are designed for a very large, diverse customer base. Tracked SS can be used in forestry and other harsh environments.... just need to be aware of the costs. Not sure on the poorly designed....but not specifically designed to do this application.
I know that certain tracked systems had more problems than others (older Cat undercarriage for one), but am I correct that even the best ones are significantly more expensive to maintain than a wheeled machine? Ken
What's the climbing ability like? If its okay, I have a question while your on the topic. How does the climbing ability vary from a tracked to wheeled machine. Say going into a full basement excavation say 8' deep with a 24' run on good clay (to move concrete to footings and then later to dump in 9' high foundation wall? Thanks for any input.
I would say they "can" be significantly more expensive than wheels to maintain, but in many applications they are significantly more productive.
I do this often but seldom in good clay, more like bad cobble rock. The tracked machine is much better. Especially if the ground is soft or wet. I usually am more steep than having a 24' run though.
To expand on the orginal posters question. What are the major differences between the brands. I am looking at getting in to a compact track loader. I need one for the farm putting up hay, feeding cattle in the mud and or snow cleaning drive way out for the semi ect ect. I have read that the asv and the terex are good machines but they are really expensive to fix. Bobcat i suspect your paying for the name, John Deere i bet is name as well. Does the deere have the matiance issues that i keep reading about? I might be looking at a new machine but i kind of want to stay away from the tier four stuff. Also for normal work track change sprockets stuff like that is that doable on your own? I am able to rebuild engines and pull tractors apart and rebuild them. I just kind of want to avoid all the electronics. Any insight would be a great welcome.
I have had 4 tire machines then later 5 different track machines in succession. I have around 15k hrs on Bobcat brand machines. I am in the tree and land clearing industry and the track loaders have become an important part of our work. The only time we use tire machines is when there is sensitive landscaping. For sensitive turf the A300 Bobcat set on all wheel steer can't really be beat by any skid steer. In all other situations a track machine will outperform a tire machine of equal weight,power, etc. They have more traction and are considerably more stable in most any situation. A tire machine might be a better choice if you are on the street alot or in a landscape yard etc. Also the ground pressure of the tracks is considerably less than tires but it will do more light (1 inch or so) damage on dry ground than tires will. On wet ground the tires tend to leave deeper ruts and then the machine won't have enough traction to back grade its own damage. Track machine cost: For me its new tracks every 700-900hrs=$2000 , New rear idlers and always one or two casters every 2k hrs= $1000 or more. And after that I get rid of them and buy a new one because by then most all the bushings and wearable parts are worn out. Best to sell them as they approach 3k hrs. We are abusive on machines. Hope that helps!!
Oh and I forgot, The tires get punctured constantly. They are no good for demo and no good for rough tree work. If you get foam filled or solid tires then they lose more traction due to the tire not conforming to the ground as much. I tried it every way you can. Try an A300 if you like tires. We cleaned up a hurricane destroyed golf course and used the T300s in the rough and the A300s on the course itself doing heavy work and they barely touch the grass. And you can switch them to skid if you like with a button.
Tracked machines can definitely be more productive. It is when you are in situations where the application might cause the track system to fail, this is when you need to take a hard look at the cost and whether the more production outweighs the maintenance and initial cost. There will be other applications where tracked system, other than initial cost, the maintenance may not be that high. The problems we see with a tracked machine, is if what you are doing is causing them to fail, downtime and repairs can be a nightmare. There is definitely a production increase especially if you are talking about lighter softer soils and slope. And, at least in my opinion, they have been way oversold on what they can do on a full time basis. What adrtree said on hours...believe it or not, that is what I've heard from 3 separate brands that under heavy harsh use, 2-3000 hours is all you get out of them before you begin to have service issues.
Nwngunner. On Bobcats you can change the front and rear idler wheels and the casters easily by yourself. The sprockets are not so easy but the sprockets are the last thing to completely wear out. The sprockets will likely outlive your use of the machine. The rear idlers tend to be the first to go(bottom back roller). The Bobcats all end up with some dirt clogging your fuel tank screen after about 2-3k hrs and the radiator is positioned in a bad way where it allows dirt to fall through the cover and clog the fins every few weeks to months for us depending on the amount of dirt falling on the machine. Other than that no problems. They say they have fixed these 2 issues in the newer machines.
Lance is correct. 3k hrs and pretty much all the track machines need to be renewed or replaced. The reason being is the increased force they use wears out all the metal collars and bushings on every joint on the machine even if you grease religiously. I crack the main pivot boom bushings quite often. As far as I know all machinery and all brand of compact loaders use pretty much the same bushings. The bigger the bushings the more abuse they will take. The motors never die. The pumps do fine if you maintain them and the structural steel itself lasts forever.
I understand that as time goes these need repaired. I had a front wheel fall off a tractor when i was moving snow with my rear blade. I am not afraid of repairs, i just dont want to get a machine that is constantly braking from poor design. I have a buddy with a machine shop who builds gears and shafts, any machine work i get done for nothing, well a case of beer but still. I not beyond wrenching on something i own, i know with the tracks you have to keep them clean, in the winter will be harder thanks to freezing outside. How ever plan on keeping it cleaned up with the pressure washer. On the bobcat tracks any way to get rid of that outside plate, so i can get to the bogey wheels and the idlers for clean up? There is a 2005 JD 332 in my area about 150miles away, here is a link to it. http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6884807&fb_source=message what are your thoughts on the JD? i have a dealership in town for parts, i hear they have issues or is that a you hear the bad and not the good.
Hmm Nwngunner I don't have too much experience with the Deere. Some of my friends doing the same work as me(just as abusive) own them and I haven't heard any complaints except about the cost of the machine. The one you are looking at looks like a clean non abused machine with relatively low hours. Probably a good choice. It should be just around 25k though. They may come down if you go to buy it. Do yourself a favor if you do tree or land work and get a Solsbee Grapple. I have had many many grapples and broken all of them. Bradco, Loflin, Bobcat Brand 80 inch(broke the first day) .The Solsbee holds up the best by far. I've been there and met them and they are good guys who stand behind what they make. http://www.solesbeesequipment.com/skid_steer_grapple_rakes.php
And on removing the plate. Dont bother theres only a ram inside to keep the track tight by pushing the front idler forward. Tilt the bucket all the way down and boom down then climb out. That will raise the machine at a 45 degree angle or so enough to allow the tracks to sag a little and give you enough room to wash the inside or back of each outrigger, casters, etc.
I have owned both. Wheeled machines, I always had New Holland. At the time, I did and still do stay away from Bobcat, so the only other vertical lift that wasn't to arms and a leg was a new Holland. All in all, I liked them, reliable, productive. I had steel ott tracks on it. If I couldn't drive up it, I could almost surely back up it. Tracked, well there is another story. I looked long and hard at them, the older cat/asv style undercarriage was junk. Plastic and steel don;t go well in cold, and to replace the broken parts it was outrageous. Again, bobcat was not a consideration. I had a mustang, mtl 16. This unit was a tak re branded. I loved it!!!!! I could go anywhere, do anything I wanted to do EXCEPT move in the snow. Once the ground froze, it wouldn't move 10 feet. There are tracks you can change to for winter application, but again more money. I am looking into getting one again, and I am leaning towards Cat for when I do it. FOr me, the big thing is the customer support. I realize that when I buy I am going to pay more than something. However, the support, parts availability and resale out weigh that for me. Their new track design is a dozer type, steel to steel, high sprocket - protects the final drives from being submerged, lots more power from what I have seen.
As for the snow and mud, i had a buddy who had a t300 and he was worried about lack of traction so he took an old set of tracks he got for nothing and cleated them with angle iron. I was thinking about doing the same thing, or using sheet metal screws into the track for studs. I am really liking that JD i linked, got to finish figuring out the finances first. I was going to go with out a heated and ac cab until a friend of mine told me he would never do it again, I ran one in the winter and it was so cold the deck plate sucked the heat right out of my boots. I decided in a hurry i really really wanted heat and ac.
There is no avoiding electronics, especially if your buying new. When it comes to end users like farmers and ranchers I think track machines need even closer scrutiny. I am not saying they shouldn't buy them, only that the benefits of a tracked machine for a contractor are more noticeable and the downsides of a CTL are easier to swallow. A contractor makes money only when the machine is moving, and relies on the machine to bring in income. "Typical" (read not all) noncontractors have the luxury of waiting for the ground to dry or taking a little longer to accomplish said task. The reward for the farmer by using wheeled instead of tracks is a cheaper purchase price, a cheaper to maintain skid steer and less loss at trade in time per dollar spent. What the Farmer/Rancher lost was perhaps some extra time to accomplish said task. So while the productivity increase of a CTL in most applications is a big advantage for a contractor, that productivity increase may not be worth the expense to someone who doesn't rely on that machine to keep the money coming in. There are options for Farmers/Ranchers to get more all weather performance out of a wheeled machine, like OTT and wider tires. Your getting closer to a CTL in performance without the downfalls of a CTL. No matter what color of CTL you get, just like a dozer,the undercarriage starts at 100% when the machine is new, and that percentage ticks down as the hours tick by until you need to reach deep into your checkbook. Do you want to reach that deep on machine that is noncritical? That is the question you have to answer. Its easier as a contractor to say yes, if the machine is more convience than a necessity then that changes things, at least it would for me.
I have a 2007 CT332 just like the one you posted. I bought it in 2009. I dont put alot of hours on it, but I abuse it. Had a track motor fail about two months after I got it. Thats really about it as far as breakdowns. It needs some bushings and pins in the boom. The cab is noisy and not very plush. Lets in some dust. Its very strong. I can outwork a small dozer by a long ways. Uses alot of fuel. A/C works really good. Mine has foot controls. If you wear a boot bigger than an 11 you will have some trouble with it. Fires right up in cold temps. Any more questions just ask. BTW, I will never own anything but a tracked machine (with real tracks, not OTTs). Ran a Bobcat with tires the other day and I think I would have done more work using a hand shovel and rake.
Here it is carrying a Daewoo.
Well i have ran a wheel loader and i have ran a ctl. The first skid steer i ever ran was a ctl and i was able to operate it and work like i had years on it in just a few short mins. The wheel loader beat me around all day long. The OTT are just going to provide more traction they arnt going to provide that much more flotation imo. I am not sure on actuall numbers but that is what i feel. I am not worried what may happen, i cant make a decision what may happy. I need to make a decision on the facts. I look at it this way, if a machine has 3000 hours and had a complete undercarriage rebuilt and i get can it for 20,000 i am going to jump on it. I can put a new engine in between 3 to 4 grand. So if i save my self 9,000 for a year and a half then have to put work in to i am money a head. My main questions were what are the shortcomings of each company so i could balance it out in my decision.
Have you operated a wheeled SS with OTT tracks on it? I don't have much seat time without OTT tracks but it seems to me that the OTT tracks DO provide a fair amount of flotation as well as smooth out the ride (and add to stability). I run my Deere 325 with the tracks on 99% of the time. I really can't imagine it getting through some of the mud without sinking in if I didn't have the tracks on it. Most of the operation has been here on the farm but it's also been used on some sloppy bridal state park bridal trails. Yes, I'd like a CTL but I don't think I can justify the additional cost for purchase or maintenance. Ken
The OTT's provide significant floatation, especially the larger bar models like the Trailblazer/F track from Leogren. There is more costs to owning a CTL than just the undercarriage. Drive motors continue to be an expensive replacement item especially for the older machines (about 7K for the motor). Rexroth makes them for nearly everyone and they are not perfect. As far as getting beat up. Several machines offer Ride Control, CASE, CAT,Gehl and some BC models have it. It completely changes the experience in a wheel machine or CTL for that matter. You can run faster with less spillage and more comfort to the operator. Not sure what engine you pricing but the CATs that have been throwing engines are costing around 10K to replace. If your looking at a high hour CTL the way that it was treated for the first 3K hours is much more important than the brand. They all are competent. Pick a dealer you can work with. Also know that some of the ag dealers may not have much experience with construction equipment. Just because they know their way around a combine doesnt mean they can diagnose a problem on a tracked machine. If you really want a CTL I would spend another 10k and get a newer machine, like around 500-1000 hour machine.
Thanks KSSS, some back ground on what we got going on here. I work and run the farm and maintain the property for my mom and stepfather. They drive over the road truck, "own our company". We have the first house built on the farm by my great grand father. My grand parents built a house on the property as well, that is now my house. My parents have the house my great grandfather built. We have been rebuilding both houses, added 20x24 onto the south end of my parents house. Adding another 24x24 on to the north, will more then double the house size. On my house i need to fix all of the basement walls on the outside and put in tile line and everything else. My grandparents house is getting a complete gut, the house hasnt been worked on in 60 years. I am planing on a bradco 12foot backhoe for the front of the machine so i can dig up the basement on my house. Plus i have culverts i need to put in, work on a pond. Plus my every day normal things to do on the farm. I am working in alot of hills and everything else. I still feel a ctl will be better for me then OTT. A buddy of mine worked road construction and his brother is a highway foreman. Both have told me that yes the CTL are more maintenance and cost for what i am doing it would be worth it.
Sounds good, just as long as you have your eyes open as to the costs. If you go this route I would try and see if you cant make some money with it on the side somehow. I would look hard at how much hoe type work you have in mind. It might make more sense to rent a mini ex. There is a thread on here about the bh attachments, you can read up as far as the different schools of thought on these. I would be real careful on buying a CTL used. Hours are not always a great indicator of overall condition but I would try and buy as new as you can afford. It does not take much in repairs to have bought the machine in better condition. Good luck with your purchase.
I would love to have new, i just dont know if i can justify 60,000 dollars. Then again we have discussed seeing what we can do with financing. I looked at a new kubota 75series that is a nice machine.
My brother swears by the rubber tracked machine but I have had good luck with steel over tires on an 1840 in the mountains installing fence. We both build fence in very unforgiving terrain. I was wanting to see anyone has operated a Case 435 wheeled skid steer and what they thought of the machine. I am wanting to get a bigger machine for a Kinghitter post pounder and to have a little more operating capacity than what the 1840 can dish out. Still love the 1840 and probably will never get rid of it.
I have both. The CTL is JD 332 2005 with about 1200 hours. Just put on new tracks and sprockets. The rubber tired skid steer is a New Holland 160 with about 2500 hours. The New Holland has foam filled tires with the Loegering OTTs. I would say that in some situations the NH with OTTs has more traction than the JD. I got a used set of tracks for the NH because it was not getting used. It was worthless in any kind of mud or any kind of slope without the OTTs. It is a much more effective machine with the OTTs and is now getting used more often. I have no regrets about buying the OTTs. The JD is a mainstay for me. It is fast, strong, very productive and reliable. I would not recommend the CTL for demo work as you would tear the tracks up other than that it has a place on almost every job. The Loegering OTTs are very rough on pavement. If I could only buy 1 machine I think I would go with a big rubber tired skid steer with the OTTs that you could remove when you needed to.
Which Loegering tracks do you have? The F or N series? The N are more of a bar track and I would expect have significantly more traction in soft ground than the flatter F series. Ken
I have the F series
Have you ever had the tires spin inside the tracks with the foam filled tire because that sounds like tha same set up as mine with foam filled but I am running the Grouser model bar tracks. I have had the tires spin but mostly in mud. My buddy runs the same tracks but noticed his tires were aired way down. Didn't know if that made a difference of not.
I personally think the 435 is under powered. I would opt up for the 445. Its bigger, heavier more powerful and more robust than the 435.
Thanks for the advice. A lot of the work I am doing is drilling holes and running post and picket pounders. My 1840 works very good for 54 hp and I am not doing a lot of heavy dirt work with it. The big advantage I am looking for is parking brake you can set without raising the seat bar. The reason I asked about a 435 is that I found one somewhat close to my location and in the state. Its been tough to find the bigger machine in CA for a reasonable price.
Good point if the 1840 is getting it done, than the 435 would as well, just with more lift capacity and longer wheel base.
Just my .02 cents, we run a variety of CTLs and have found that keeping them power-washed and debris out of track system lengthens the maintenance a GREAT deal.