On a Case CX75SR '08 (serial DC07U0873) with a non-tier 3, naturally aspirated Isuzu 4JG1 PAA engine. Been running for unknown length of time (machine bought at 4300hrs, total machine hrs now 5200) basically unpressurised coolant, though not seen running hot, always sits under half on gauge. Cat ELC. Header tank weeps from seam if expansion bottle topped up, so header tank been left an inch down. Thursday and Friday were warm days, working in pine brash, humid. Temp gauge up to half, during afternoon little above half. Machine perhaps slightly under performing, not as smooth sounding perhaps. No smoke from exhaust, just hint of changed engine note , or paranoia owing to higher running temps. Machine idled occasionally to cool below half, soon back to half etc. Friday prestart, fluid levels as usual. Belt tight. Coolant usual level (ie. 1 inch down in header) Running hot 2/3 of gauge by Friday lunch, heater put on full in cab (lovely!), hood left open above engine. =Temp on gauge now running just above half. Radiator looks clean from both sides, but while checking rad again friday afternoon while idling, noticed air filter cover rattling in clips noisily. Found air chuffing out of the rubber sock/dust drop valve on bottom of housing. Removed rubber piece and held hand there, definitely puffing air. Am heading there tomorrow morning to look between rads for cleanliness, change air filter, hyd oil a inch high from overfilling so may syphon some out, then was planning on running it and shooting temps on hoses, block, thermo housing, water pump if can see it, etc. I will post these temps when I know. Also to remove thermostat and check if working. It was on to do list to remove counterweight and replace radiator, it appears it may have sat on the list too long (naively thought that it was keeping cool enough to not be a worry...?) The case dealer was embarrassed to mention the list price for the radiator on phone a while ago, found a rad rebuild specialist couple weeks ago while fixing 2 other engines with bad rads who said whip it off and bring in. So I'm learning slowly. ( I hope...) So my question is, if the puffing air from filter is real, what should I do next? Check under rocker cover for valve clearances and operation, crack injectors at idle to listen for bad cylinder, or run compression test? Wondering why the header tank started weeping in first place, stuck thermostat enough to cause this? Any thoughts or advice would be welcomed. All the best.
Another picture. Will take some of engine tomorrow.
I'd crack the injector lines, then check the valve lash, then check compression and then add a squirt of oil and check compression again. Keep track of which injector went where and have them tested next. Don't touch the radiator until the engine is sorted out. How hot was it outside? dusty?
Hi Delmer, thanks for reply. It was around 27C in shade (80 f) but out in the sun in all the pine tops, no breeze, felt like oven. Was average dusty, when piling the tops up. Will check the injector lines first then, and go through the list as you say. Thanks for providing direction.
We hit mid 90's and that's no where near as bad as it gets, but I wasn't in cab with the heat on either. I don't think the air temperature, and maybe even the coolant temperature had anything to do with it. That is so much cooler than machines are designed to be run in. Humidity doesn't have any negative affect on engine cooling, it just makes it uncomfortable if you're not used to it. The first thing to check is the radiator. Looking clean from both sides can be misleading. Can you get close enough to put a light on one side and look through from the other side? If you say it's clean after looking THROUGH it in several places, then I'll take your word for it. Turning the heater on and cooling it off that much means the radiator is working below capacity, but the temps will tell if the water is plugged or the air is plugged.
I've got a flashlight in the truck now, will dangle it in there and have a look through, my original thinking was to check the simple things (between rads, clean air filter) the proceed to run it for a while, then measuring temps to see if I've / where I've got a problem. Then maybe checking thermostat or coolant pump or whatever. But last night I remembered the air chuffing filter and started thinking that I may have a situation there that might be more the immediate problem.
Yes, I'd consider that a more immediate problem. The fluids are good so you can run it to load and maybe a couple days if you need to finish up a job. Really I'm just a hobby shade tree mechanic, I wonder what the experts say? Also makes a big difference what you find in the radiator, and dead cylinder, compression tests.
The first thing I'd do is get an air hose and blow out through the radiator in the opposite direction of the way the fan blows, and see how much dirt you get. You said the air filter cover was "rattling in it's clips". Is there any chance the air filter isn't sealing? If so, DON'T RUN IT LIKE THAT!
Cheers Delmer, I'm on my way there soon so should know some more details later. Yes, need to find out if it's ok to run or not, only quarter way into this job here and we just moved it 1 &1/2 hrs from base, got this job and some oaks to move around 3 miles away so fair bit to do, need it running healthy.
Hi Mitch, the actual filters seem snug pushed up the end, they are very soft rubberized end type. Will have another look, was going to change filter. The cover does seem bit loose, might be able to bend the over-center clips a little to tighten it up. I've got couple of large bottles of air on truck to blow rad with, hoping I may be able to loosen them apart somehow, there is a small plate below but from memory I think it only allows access to bottom hose. Pretty tight these zero tail machines, hopefully they designed it to allow for cleaning without removing counterweight.
like willie said in that other thread, if you crack injector lines one at a time, if you find one that doesn't make a difference, there's a place to start
Yes, Willie's plan looked good. Look at rad, then crack fuel lines on idle.
There's a judgement call on the air filter, if it's blowing back like an intake valve hanging open that's one thing, if it's just enough you can see the rubber lips moving that's how it's supposed to be, that pulsing is used to evacuate dirt from the air cleaner.
Hi Lantraxco, yes, it's not actually moving the lips as such, just blowing out in a beating kind of way. I took some panels off etc and the rads were pretty dusty, so blew them out until low on air. After this rad is changed, think I need to customize the guarding some, to make it more effective to get air wand in there. Anyway, idled it and cracked injectors, seemed to effect all cylinders similar. Removed the breather from where it connects to intake manifold, wasn't breathing much at all, meanwhile air filter still chuffing. Thought I'd check valve lash while got tools out, all seems fine, couple of exhaust rockers slightly out (loose). Took thermostat elbow off to see if there was one in there, there was. While waiting for the camping stove to heat up a pan full, I thought may as well run it without then can take a look at coolant flow. Didn't do compression test yet. Ran it for a couple hrs and it took a while to warm up and stayed way down on gauge, was ~72*C bottom hose, 80*C thermostat cover. It was a much cooler day, but combination of cleaner rad and no thermostat surprised me. 2nd picture was looking through to light. 3rd picture when raising revs. View attachment 171415 View attachment 171415
Oh, just to complete, thermostat started opening ~80*C, fully open mid *90's ie just before plain water started to boil. Will try and find out from case dealer what temp is meant to open. Will test new one before fitting.
THERMOSTAT TEMPERATURES Thermostats have a “rated” temperature such as 180F or 195F This is the temperature the thermostat will start to open, give or take 3 degrees The thermostat fully open about 15-20 degrees above its rated temperature From the Stant website. Your temps sound acceptable. Does the coolant look good when it's not running? Have you drained a sample of coolant to see if there's any sediment that would indicate other gunk that could be fouling the radiator. The radiator didn't look too bad. Some thermostats close off a bypass to circulate coolant through the block when the thermostat opens. You don't want to run an engine without a thermostat, and especially with the bypass type.
Hi Delmer. Yes in *f, it started opening around 175*f, was fully open around 200*f. I did drain the coolant from the rad drain, I saved it in a clean bucket and filtered it back in. No sediment came out, but the drain is very small so was only a trickle. The colour was red with a slight brown tinge. I've ordered a new thermostat from case dealer, my word they know how to bill. Preparing myself in case the head needs to come off, I asked for list of prices including head gasket etc, bearing in mind it's not a big engine I was surprised by the head gasket price of £160 odd, and head bolts £55 each x18. Looking at exchange rate, I see it's $1.66 Canadian dollar to the pound, so that's over $90 per bolt, or $1600 plus tax. Just bought genuine headbolts for a similar sized engine in a land rover the other day, land rover dealers have reputation for high prices, at £9 per bolt they weren't a fraction of what Case are asking. Yikes. You are quite right that I probably shouldn't be running this without thermostat. The engine is the last of the old style, pre-emissions models, the stat sits in an elbow on the top end and looks like it is fairly open in the hole it sits in. It takes a while to reach a low operating temp, but with my heat gun I've kept shooting temps during day and the stat housing and block have sat at 175*f all day, the oil filter registers hottest at ~190*f. This machine is the key to us being on this job and if it gets parked the job stops. I am glad it is still useable, soon as new stat arrives I will test in 1st then fit it, and see what happens. Still waiting for compression test to happen.
Ummm, is it supposed to have reddish brown coolant? If not, I'd flush the dickens out of it and replace with fresh coolant. If it is, I'd still flush the dickens out of it and replace the coolant. Check the OE specs on what type of coolant to use and buy that specific coolant.
Yeah, the pic of the coolant didn't look right, could be the pic is off. The brownish tint doesn't sound right either. I don't think that's your immediate problem though. You could get a coolant sample tested if you know when it's been flushed and changed last. Have you tested the concentration of the coolant, I don't suppose below zero F is too much of an issue for you.
The coolant didn't look great, it's true. Because changing radiator is on to do list, we've held off changing coolant... It has a original looking sticker saying "filled with extended life coolant". I asked Case what to top it up with when I bought it, they said cat ELC. But yesterday when I talked to them about replacing the coolant they said it's just meant to be filled with "ordinary" coolant which round here would mean blue ethylene glycol. And that this machine would unlikely have ELC in and that I'd be wasting my money putting it in. So conflicting advice from Case. Would you flush it out and change it if you were planning on changing the rad really, really soon (really) or would you run it for couple weeks and get it back to yard first? I appreciate we've been letting this slip pretty bad, but it's now a priority to sort out. It's now 9 yr old machine and dealer was making calls to find out why radiator listed as no longer supported, was told from higher up that's how it is. A rad specialist has said they should be able to put something together to fit, and it wouldn't be $4200 which was Case's old price.
Hi Delmer, no, haven't had much in the way of even a frost these last couple years. Will test concentration of coolant but as Wilko said, looks (over)due a change. I changed all filters, oils at 5000 hrs but not coolant, think was waiting till rad change. Is it worth doing SOS sample test if I don't know change date (assume never (cough))? Am trying to get some help on this, have found a chap who has a 7.5t tool truck with a crane on, said is happy to work on it on edge of woods. Trouble is, harvest just started here, so... Am looking forward to getting the counterweight off and getting it fixed. It's such a great machine to us, I can't believe the blind spot I've had on it. Every other machine we have has fresh coolant in, somehow I've been avoiding this one. Time flys.
Hi Wilko, I was trying to quote you there but this site seems to have mind of it's own, but yes- the coolant is not great. Who knows what is OEM, last owner may have changed it and found sticker to stick on rad. Will have a look in handbook when I get there today. Can cat ELC be used in place of ethylene glycol coolant, do you know? Will look in book, and get back.
I have in stock 4 different coolants (2 different ELC's, 1 OAT, some AGCO ethylene glycol.) so the choice is there.
No, I wouldn't test it if you know it's bad/old. Yes, ELC can replace other coolant. ELC IS still ethylene glycol, ELC or OAT is the additive/anticorrosion package. They're made to "work" with old coolant, different coolant because that's what happens in the real world, but they won't last any longer than the old stuff did when mixed (crude explanation, as good as I know it). I'd drain the coolant, add rain water, drain it after a day, continue until it comes relatively clean, there will be some rust tint, don't worry about that. Probably just a couple times. Then add a gallon or just a half, of ELC concentrate and fill the rest with rainwater, and finish the job. You can't let it get as hot with lower coolant concentration because of the lower boiling point. That shouldn't be an issue in your temps because of the lower viscosity and higher heat capacity of the lower concentration. I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with the radiator if you can live with the seeping/or find a patch.
Delmer, that's good advice, thanks. Well, book calls for ethylene glycol. Specific gravity of the old gunge is 1.084. Sticker looks like a factory sticker saying ELC of some kind in here, my wife is Japanese and confirms this. And yes, I broke the glass lab tube first thing after I arrived, good start hey?! Truck kept coming today, so everyone happy.
This morning before I left, I looked at a couple of machines in yard and one of them had the same kind of air filter housing rubber dust ejector valve, so I started it and had a feel and it did a similar puffing of air. Not as strong, but it had a turbo on it which may baffle it to a degree. So I wonder if I may be chasing a ghost here, and the hot engine temps combination of hot day, bad maintenance and possibly slightly sluggish stat (which I can compare when new one arrives). So I'm thinking I should do flushes as Delmer suggests, new ELC, new stat, and I might take rocker cover off and adjust a couple of exhaust valves which were 5 thou baggy. And then keep the rad clean and see what happens. Delmer, would you pull the bottom hose off for all flushes? (such a pig to get off and on, shame the drain point has such a tiny flow) Cheers mate, John.
Cat lists their specific gravity at 1.110 but I couldn't see if that was concentrated or 50:50. The new concentrate I tested was 1.100, I will have to test it 50:50 to know, but I'm going to change it anyway. Notice it now says extender at 6000hrs, thought it was 3000hrs for that.
According to a ethylene glycol chart, 1.082 specific gravity at coolant temp of 20*C = 50% 1.079 at coolant temp of 10*C = 45% It was first thing in morning so 10*C at 1.084 =~ 47% concentration. (+3% rust...)
Sorry, I wouldn't bother taking the hose off if it's a pain. That looks like a mix of colors more than rust in the coolant. You'll know when you drain into a clean bucket, what kind of sediment is in there.