Whats you control choice? and what do you think is the better control style? I notice there are many names for the controls I see ISO, BHL, SAE, some as simple as CAT controls and JD controls. What do you use to determine them? Ive heard many people say SAE controls are better for Grading, Yet after running both BHL seem to be far more comfortable and I was able to grad signifigantly better. For as far as that can go my thoughts are the grading is only as good as the operator and each control style is what is more comfortable for the operator. Am I wrong? Can some one shed light on this topic for me? Thanks
It all boils down to which what you are used to running. The patterns do come from Backoe to Excavator. Most guys that are used to running the older backhoes are used to Deere control pattern while most people that have run excavator are used to Cat pattern. Myself I'am used to Cat control pattern you ask me what joystick does what I have troubles remembering its subconcious I grab a hold of the sticks and my hands do the motions. You put me in a machine with the opposite control pattern I have troubles. I'am a south paw I can't write with my right hand I can sort of write with my right but it ain't pretty. Its why you see pattern switchers in most new machines I think its the law now.
around here most old backhoe operators are used to holding 3 sticks:wink2 I myself, im a cat man, put me in a machine with JD controls and ill look like a 10 year old on speed.
What most backhow operators learned on in the early years was the old Case machines with the foot pedals. I ran them a few times talk about trying to make the brain work to move your feet and your hands.
I actually prefer the old case 3 stick with foot swing, i was so much more precise with it, with the 2 stick i'm all over the place. its also nice for trenching as you can boom down and push the stick out to push yourself forward while your other hand turns the wheel.
I remember when we first got our Case Backhoe (many moons ago) that had the swing pedals. We were installing a culvert and the regular operator was just getting or trying to get used to the foot swing. We were on his left and he was swinging right to dump his material. During one swing he got his left ang right mixed up and he swung the boom and nearly took our heads off. Some people just can't get their hands and feet working together no matter how simple it is. I found the Case very easy to operate and also I liked the foot swing.:yup
It is true that the old Case controls with the foot swing had a lot going for it. Back in the days when I was still smoking I could puff on my pipe if it was still going while my feet did the work swinging to dump.As Tyler said you can also steer while inching yourself forward while trenching. As for the original posters question about which control style is best for grading etc to make a valid comparison you need to run identical machines with each pattern because it is the personality of the machine that determines how it performs different functions more than the style of control pattern it has.Once you run either style enough to get used to it you should be equally capable with either setup IF the equipment is the same otherwise. I prefer the Cat style mostly because there seems to be more of them in my area but once in a while I work for a company that has the JD setup and I have to relearn it again.Then when it is time to run a Cat I cannot do it!!LOL I have worked for a company with JD backhoes and Cat excavators and it was never an issue when jumping back and forth between machines so you can get used to both at the same time without too much trouble if you need to.Ron G
I run Cat controls. It's what I started on and if I run Deere controls I'm everywhere. I almost wiped out a house last year running a Deere backhoe. Oops!
I too learned on an 580C in the mid 70s. I was running a friends mini-ex last weekend and asked him to switch the controls to BHL. He rolled his eyes, but I am much more productive doing it my way
personally, i think all machines should be SAE if for nothing else, safety. when you hire an operator, he should be able to jump from machine to machine and operate it safely and proficiently
Heck I really don't care what controls its it. JUST KEEP ME THE HELL OFF A CASE WITH A 3 or 4 (extend hoe) STICK. Note: mafia block thats laying on its side. Just can't get the hang of it. Also note, my grandfather on the other side chewing me out the entire time for 3 hours. Cause I can't run a hoe. GRRRRR:Banghead
Grrr forgot the pic
For me I have been running forklift for so long that feathering hydraulics isn't a problem which you really have to do with the old Case backhoes. Backhoes are one of the harder machines to run if you can run a hoe you can run anything else.
i dunno i just find keeping the bucket and stick on my right joystick tons easier but to each their own.
i started out on JD controls but the company that im currently working for, they are all Cat controls. so i have ran both and im more comfortable with the Cat controls
So when it really comes down to it, its all just a matter of how it feels to the operator. I know I started working for the company Im currently with they were Cat, then I jumped on to my new machine ( 312BL) and my boss had got JD controls in it... so I learned all over like many of you have. I find it more comfortable for me and like one of you said keeping the bucket and stick on the right side just seems so much better. I think it would be a great Idea to either put in place a law that will have one control style or like they have been doing installing switches. when it comes down to it, its a big safety issue and even if your able to run both, you could end up naturaly meaning to do one thing and end up doing the opposite and killing someone. if that made any sense.
As weird as this may seem... I'm better with JD controls in a backhoe and Cat controls on an excavator. Flip that around and I've gotta take a few seconds to tell myself what's what. The pilot controls on backhoes are really nice, so I can't complain. By far the weirdest controls to get used to are Gradall.
I am not good with JD controls at all! I am such a spaz with them. I'm really good with case controls, and then I got a job at a rental company and now I'm good with Cat controls. But Deere controls just don't quite work for me. :bash Blake WA
I haven't run one in almost 20 years but yeah they were a hand full at that time. Anybody ever run a "Little Giant"? Looks like a Gradall. The controls in ours (and I guess all of them) were turned 45 degrees so that if you pulled a stick straight toward you or straight sideways 2 things moved together. I lasted about 15 minutes on it...:Banghead Sorry, I Didn't mean to hijack this thread. I agree that either pattern is just as useful for grading - it's all what you are used to. We even had one guy that could run the heck out of that damn Little Giant!
I learned in an old Case 580 c, and graduated to a Ford 555, both with the hand tangling sticks. When I moved to an excavator it was a John Deere 70, so that was the pattern that engraved itself into my brain. There's something about having all the bucket control in one hand that seems much more smoother. Use the right hand for the bucket and the left for the machine, just seems to flow better. I've tried to swap my machine to Cat from time to time and just can't seem to avoid bouncing myself out of the seat.
I learned on Deere I think they are more efficient, you can take one hand off the control and not have to stop. But it has been a year or so since I have ran one. The first company I worked for had both and I could jump form machine to machine with out losing a beat.
SAE OR CAT BHL John Deere ? Sae or cat boom Right Hand John Deere Boom on left True? Were can i get proof ? picture or some thing
yes that is correct. JD - Boom left hand, Stick right hand Cat - Boom right hand, stick left hand I personaly like using JD the best and being able to be bailing material or loading trucks and be able to take my right hand of the joystick. far nicer then having to stop the machine every time.
Yep, it's always nice to be able to reference your sources, even when you are able to pull the info right out of your head. (Which I couldn't--my hands know the difference, but my mind isn't as well educated.) Here's a source that should know: http://www.bobcat.com/products/ex/features/glossary.html "Control patterns (ISO or Standard) — The operating pattern of an excavator's joysticks. There are two predominant joystick patterns on compact excavators. When operating in the ISO pattern, the right-hand joystick controls the boom up/down function and the left-hand joystick controls the arm in/out function. With the "standard" pattern, these two functions are reversed. Bobcat excavators are standard equipped with a control pattern selection feature that allows the operator to choose the preferred control pattern."
I run a 330 cat the control pattern selector shows it is on the BHL which is in jd mode left hand boom. SAE is cat boom on right, by the card in the cab is SAE = standard. Non standard (BHL) is jd. By the bobcat site standard is jd ? What Is SAE Cat or JD. ISO ?
When operating in the ISO pattern, the right-hand joystick controls the boom up/down function and the left-hand joystick controls the arm in/out function sae = jd iso = cat
The card in the cab shows SAE is cat, Boom on right
Most people go by Deere or Cat controls. All I know is I like to have the boom in the right hand and dipper in the left :yup
A good operator just needs to get warmed up to something different--not really a big deal.I remember going from a 4 stick control on my 3820IH hoe to a 2 stick on my 510B Deere.The 2' bucket on the Cornbinder was a monsterous half yard-the Deere a quarter yard--after 1 hour my labor foreman told me I was out-producing the Cornbinder.This, after 8 years with those 4 sticks.My Dad was an operating engineer and always told me the boss expected an operator to look like an operator on a new machine real quick or else he'd replace him.
I can agree with this... we got into a big discussion on how the controls on a skid-steer (Cat SSL, anyhow) are reversed when trying to turn in reverse as compared to a car or a dozer. We managed to confuse ourselves -- so it really is just trying to get used to whatever control pattern we're running. Easier said than done, of course -- especially for noobs like myself.
I have a habit of turning around to the left when going backwards long distances and using my right hand on the left (steer) stick in the 248...Now, when your looking backwards and using the right hand on the left stick some interesting things happen in owners steep and narrow driveways :Banghead
I just remembered a hairy "ALMOST" situation once.It was at IBMs largest site here in Poughkeepsie.My JD hoe was down so I was forced to get something real strange--yeah-a 580 Case for a day to rent.Well,my Dad was project manager on this job and there was this temporary above grade 2' chemical waste pipe.He just finished telling me not to even get close to this pipe as the fallout if broken would result in us being in real DS.Plus 5,000 Beemers leaving the plant immediately.OK,so I'm trying to undo the transport lock on the hoe right over this pipe--it finally releases and that damn thing does a bounce bounce surge thing with the bucket missing that pipe by inches.It definitely would have broken that fiberglass pipe. Can never be too careful. You know though--getting used to new controls is like making love to a new woman:You all know the basics,but you really have to learn to make adjustments as you go and constantly watch her reaction.:bouncegri