Why don't non western Countries use scrapers? Countries like china/brazil/India with huge infrastructure projects don't seem to use them much, even developed countries like japan and south Korea don't seem to use them. I don't have much experience with scrapers but they seem like a very expensive niche market machinery. Even in there niche market I think excavators and haul trucks would come pretty close to their efficiency. With their huge upfront costs and expensive maintenance and parts requirements they only seem feasible in select areas with excellent parts and service support and huge pockets.
I noticed that even companies likeKomatsu, Hitachi or Hyundai don't make scrapers.
Komatsu did make some scrapers back in the 70's and 80's? They are high maintainance machine with a high purchase price (and manufacturing cost) they move the dirt quickly though
In the right conditions you will not move dirt cheaper than with scrapers however they take skill to operate and maintain so as that takes time to aquire and the generation of dirt movers coming through today have not got the time to aquire those prerequisites they gravitate to more expensive means of moving the dirt (artics & diggers). Scrapers have made a bit of a resurgence in the past few years and clawed back some ground on the dumb truck/excavator world as cost pressures from clients have increased and Cat are addressing the issue with operator skill by enabling new series machines to have some automated funcions so less skilled guys and girls can run the machine to a higher degree of efficiency than they might have had otherwise. A contractor in Australia who was expert in the art of the scraper through the 70,s, 80,s & 90,s used to claim that if you can get it in the bowl then it is scraper dirt, simple as that and from what i saw them do i would agree. With the non western country think it would come down to a couple of things with the main one being an abundance of labour at cheap rates with the next being education of the process but that is changing and for China at least and to a lesser extent India as they both become more westernised things will change, i would think China is a huge market for scrapers but when they do projects of a mass scale they are not done with massive equipment it is more so massive amounts of people and small equipment.
Brazil was a place where there were some scrapers as Terex opened a plant there and I owned a Brazillian TS14 B.
there is only one scraper manufacture in china that i knoe of and well he is gone now i think and the chinese look at it as an investment thing an excavator in china would give you a lot more return then a scarper would i have never seen one in china and i have traveled around china a hell of a lot and i am yet to meet a chinese guy who knows what one is also. but in saying that backhoe loaders where rare as rocking horse **** a few years back but seeing more and more of them in china so i guess with time might start to see some scrapers around my father ran scapers in victoria in australia for more then 35 years.
SoCalEarthmovers have some pretty cool videos using scrapers on YouTube. Cheapest cost per cubic yard in most materials, if they are available. I wonder if contracts in some "Eastern" countries are less competitive, at least governmental contracts. Free market competetive efficiency using outside contractors vs. government performing work themselves? Doesn't explain why private sector would not use them, unless there are no private sector projects. I know, I am displaying my ignorance of how things are done around the world.
they are a very focused tool. they pick dirt up and lay it down. An excavator and a ADT or haul truck have more uses in less civilized situations.
have to agree with gavin,guys over here in nz do not want to do the hours, want air con and stero,and on cellphone all day,should look at choopers video and harden up,merry xmas,kerry
ADT and hoe have less breakdowns and ADTs are more easily available for dry rental and they're more efficient when the haul is longer cat and scraper make good money when there's no service truck parked beside them
in the right aplication you cannot beat scrapers atd,s are used alot over here because no one can handlel scrapers and they are not intereted;kerry
Breakdowns can come from people and processes just as much as the manufacturer, that is BS they have less breakdowns. ADT & hoe are expensive dirt movers when you break it down to cost/bcm moved, it,s just that no one needs real brains to run those that well so they are the choice of a generation in this era, you know they have the p upside down in the word "dump" truck don,t you!!
I think scrapers are cheaper per yard in most situations. Especially a shallow cut over a wide area, like stripping topsoil. But, if it is extremely wet or rocky, back dumps are a good way to go.
That's funny, cuz I have yet to meet someone who runs a buggy that would qualify as a rocket scientist. Like others have said, in the right conditions, buggies are the cheapest way to move dirt. However, the ADT/hoe combo are a more versatile system, and while they may have a higher cost per BCM, they can be utilized more, bringing down their overall ownership costs. Ideally, it would be great to have fleets of both to tailor to any situation thrown at you, but most contractors can't do that, and need to compromise with one or the other. The ADT/hoe combo seems to be a more adaptable compromise in most cases.
Can I ask why you guys feel the younger generation is the dismise of scraper use? I am 26 and would love to run a scraper. I have been a few ts 14s mainly just a couple hours on them, nothing major. Its not my fault all the companies in my area have switched to adts and hoes. Only one local company I know that has a few, barely ever uses them. Mainly just see the elevating ones working with graders. Just do not think all young people are soft, I operate what I am given to run. It is not my fault my owner keeps a newer fleet and everything has radios, a/c, heat and it all works. Guess he might feel he gets more out of us by being a little more comfortable.
Well said Kerry. Not gunna be much fun in once all the old school operators have gone
You may think his reasoning is that he will get more out of you if you are comfortable. There are a lot of "machine drivers" around these days that call themselves "operators" who won't get on a machine unless it has heat, air conditioning, stereo and the likes. Then there are the ones that won't get on a scraper too. I always had draw bar type scrapers behind Cat D7's and D8's around here until I started selling out. With a D7 push Cat could load a Cat No. 80 scraper in around 30 seconds. Lets see a hoe load an ADT in that time. Much of the time went without a push Cat at all. Run the numbers and see what moves material for the lowest unit cost. Answer is obvious. You must be the exception to the rule 390 eric.
The comments made regarding the utility of hoes and ADT's make sense for small to medium sized projects, but if you have a couple of million yards to move there is no comparison if the material is suitable. The original question though deals with why they are not found in NON WESTERN countries. Availability surely is part of the answer. It would take a huge project to warrant shipping scrapers in if other equipment is available. Regarding availability, I used to truck in and out of California each week, and was always amazed at the size of equipment (large) that was brought in for relatively small projects. It would not be economically viable in most places, but if a contractor has that size of equipment sitting in their yard and is equipped to mobilize it then the math works out a lot different. I
One other thing about developing countrys is that scrapers were not there to start with. Western countrys; scrapers have been around since the 60s. Theyre buying machinery now and new scrapers are priced off the list; whereas new diggers and atds are readily available. Plus you only need a skilled man at each end of the load/dump cycle and the people in the dumpers can just be mushrooms. however diggers and dump trucks depend on each other; when 1 stops the others not much use. Scrapers, if one dies the rest can keep going; well twin power anyway; single needs a shove from behind ! and like greg said scrapers will load in under a minute, diggers wont do that !
I've attached a few images from a massive project in Saudi Arabia. They were making shrimp ponds out there, and found that the most efficient way to move material was with Scrapers hauled by Artics. Project started in the fall of 2010. If memory serves me correct, I believe they were using 6 scrapers with 33 cubic yard capacity in their fleet to maximize production. Production Fleet: Bell ADT Power-unit pulling K-Tec Scraper: I think a lot of foreign contractors are uneducated about more efficient ways of moving dirt. It is easier to use your older inefficient equipment, than to seek out new machinery, and hope that it can ship overseas.
Yair . . . I have often wondered about those set Artic setups, do they self load in that sandy material? What advantage are they over the large Agricultural tractors? If they still need a bunt up the arse it seems a complicated prime mover set-up compared to a conventional two wheel scraper tractor. Without seeing the the job I would imagine a lot of material in that part of the the world would look a lot like egg-beater dirt. Cheers.
Nice pictures Shane K! I can see where this type of set up would be more cost effective than conventional scrapers where rock is not an issue. I have not run one of these outfits, but I suspect that gps or laser grade control is highly desireable with them as visibility to the cutting edge, and "feel" would be quite different than conventional scrapers.
I'd say the main advantages of Artics over Tractors would be the increased horsepower and the increased speeds on longer haul roads. You can rip down 3 times as fast to improve cylce time/productivity if comparing against an ag tractor. Here's a you-tube video of this same Saudi Arabia contractor self-loading: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNZwSYVjLtA They had some existing pushers in their fleet to, so for the majority of the time they were pushing to further improve productivity.
Yair . . . Without going too far O/T I would like to say I agree with poster Greg's comments completely. He has always been a great advocate of drawbar pulled scoops (scrapers) and crawler tractors. It always comes down to horses for courses though, you wouldn't want to be hauling more than a quarter mile and walking gear is an an issue when you work in sand. Over here the distances between jobs can be so large that even though it would be cheaper (by the yard) to do the job with a scraper behind (say) a D7 the job is done with blade because it is such a pain in the azz to get the scoop on site. . .and that remains true to this day. Cheers
And that would hold true for just about any item of plant Brian when you think about it. Plant operating wages could never attract a rocket scientist!!
Yair . . . As other folks have rightly said on other threads conclusions shouldn't be drawn from a few minutes of You Tube vids but the cut and dump cycle shown in ShaneK's link above . . . and the mention of "shrimp ponds" would seem to negate any high haul speed advantages of the system. I venture the opinion that crawler tractors and scoops ( think McAninch) would have been worth a look on a project such as this. Others may disagree but I believe one of the big advantages of crawlers (provided the scoop is not oversized) is that you proceed from the end of the loading to the start of dumping by the most direct route i.e. up the three in ones where ever you hit them and straight up onto the bank . . . anything blows me away its watching a crawler/scoop combo going the long way on a "haul-road". Same thing coming back, where the tractor can go the scoop is going to follow. If the material where that ADT is working was ripped a D8 going in hard with three or four pumps would have it falling off the low side in the length of the machine . . . but of course I've been told its not done to pump load anymore. Cheers.
are you an operator,puller,sorry scrub puller
i am not in usa 390eric and cannot comment,over here in nz if you are keen companies will give you a go,set your mind to it,dont give up it will happen,best of luck,kerry
I think that the western world has the history/pasted down knowledge to see what can be done with scrapers including the tractor drawn units which date back to the 30s. The newer younger generations have only been exposed to the ADT/Hoe method of moving dirt. Here in Ontario there are still LOTs of dirt projects using scrapers not anywhere near the size of the massive projects of the 50/60s. As for maintenance issues with scrapers???? All the scrapers around here are anywhere from 30-40 years old with god only knows how many hours on them. There is one guy around here who still runs a few old three axle euclids from the late 50s early 60s! I have not seen too many hoes around still working of that vintage. I will say that there is a contractor that has a well looked after link-belt 7400 still working here. As the age creeps up on hoes they ARE/WILL be a maintenance nightmare... They almost seem to me to be a disposable/consumable unit compared to a dozer/scraper/grader/truck etc, you just dont see the old Koehrings,Warner & swaseys,Insleys still paying their way & making their owners money....
I don't know about the rest of the world but the outfit I worked for for over 25 years had a mixed spread of Cat and scoops, Farm type FWD tractors pulling 1-3 pans, Cat 627's, TS 14's(phased out) and truck and hoe combos. They each had their place and it all depended on length of haul and what the dirt was like as to which got used, most of the bigger jobs had a fleet of each. The most cost effective most of the time it seemed was the 627's push pulling.
When I put my D7's and D8's with pull type pans up against hoes and ADT's on short haul jobs, meaning up to 2,600 to 3,000 feet haul I alwyas beat them for unit cost per yard. Less equipment and less labor on the job. Like I said before on here. A hoe can't put 20 yards in an ADT in 30 seconds like I did into a Cat No. 80 pan with a D7 pushing it. Most of time no pusher needed either.