so i recently purchased an older service truck to hopefully someday transition into the independent game if things go well. the truck was stripped of its welder and compressor, it still has under body tanks and hose reel and if i didnt already have a couple welders i would consider an airpak so my question is whats everybody's opinion on on gas vs hydraulic compressors? the truck has a pto driven hyd pump for the crane but its only 5gpm and would have to be upgraded along with hyd tank capacity to accommodate a hyd compressor, is it worth the effort and exspence? all the service trucks ive ever had have been hyd air so i have no exspirence with the gas jobbys but that seems to be the lowest cost option
I finally broke down and bought a VMAC G30 last year. I prefer a separate compressor because some jobs we'll have air going for a couple hours at a time. Probably think about your air usage before you make a decision.
I have a few trucks, my 02 f350 has a gas drive and small electric crane, my 92 450 has a pto driven crane compressor. Around the house I find myself using the gas drive compressor on the 350 more just because I dont have to run the whole truck. Ive also thought about an electric compressor on my 450 for when I just need to blow something off quick and dont want to listen to the truck run.
hard to say, i find myself using air less and less as battery tools are so convenient but i do occasionally airarc and the need the cfm for that. i like the idea of keeping idle hours down
I run a 30 gallon gas engine style. It's a great unit and a hell of a lot cheaper. I never wanted to have my truck engine running while working, but I'm one of those old guys that seems to resist change lol
Vmac makes some slick units but maybe find a good used gas engine air compressor with small or no tank, good reliable motor, service it often and either put cable drains on the under air tanks or a 1/4 inch line from the bottom of the tank to a handy ball valve and drain line. Truck engine hours are expensive.
I'm putting together a newer 450 with a smaller electric hyd crane and ended up putting a 30 gal gas drive in the bed, before that truck came along I had the compresor on a trailer and would bring it for big air jobs like tightening track pads or sandblasting at my shop. One of the nice features of a electric start tied into the truck is if my batteries are too low to start the 7.3 I can fire off the compressor and itll charge the truck up.
If it wasn’t for air arc and one inch impact use the need for air in the field is way less than it used to be. I do 75 percent of jobs without ever using air. I went with a miller air pac and love it. I run it to a 40 gallon tank so I can blow a few things off without starting the air pac. I find the piston compressors really can’t keep up with a one inch impact unless you go to a big one.
that's pretty much where i'm at, i might not use the air compressor on my company truck all week but when you need it you need it and its hard to say how much ill need it on my own, if i didn't already have a welder that's probably the route i would go.
I currently run a cas80 hydraulic screw compressor on my truck. I don’t use it a lot. Mainly for blowing out radiators and running my air hammer. (Why doesn’t Milwaukee make an M18 air hammer yet?) builds massive amounts of air. Not sure I would spend the money if it wasn’t already on the truck.
Definitely can't justify the price of a large screw for this build, but would sure be nice for heavy airarcing
A buddy used a m18 hammer drill with an adapter to have a cordless needle scaler, actually worked pretty good
We went the route of mounting a generator, then using a 2hp air compressor. Again, just to run a small blow gun, air hammer occasionally. Also have a small electric pressure washer that we still need to remount on the current truck.
The beauty of the miller air pack is that it does so many things in a small space. 1. Welder 2. Air compressor 3. Generator 4. 12/24 volt booster.
http://images.buya.com/production/Images/ITEMS/Zda/91/93/aece975743a0e7b242662a341a.jpg I’m talking about an assault hammer.
PH3050 ain't got **** on a CP717, learned that the hard (and expensive) way.
Interesting. My old 3050 is going on 15 years old and I’ve never seen an air hammer that would hit harder. What kind of money is that CP?
ive owned/used alot of air hammers and the snappy has been the hardest hitting and most reliable. have never used the cp but if i t hits harder than the snappy id give it a shot
I was running the PH3050 originally when I was working on construction equipment (and broke a few quality bits with it). We had a stuck pin that coworker and I were going at with a pair of them. Shop manager came out and grabbed his floppy rattled apart CP717 and drove it right out. Not being a big guy, that sold me right there. They use a .498 shank and were sold as zip guns for rivet work. I got mine used on ebay and built out with single bits through Ajax Tool Works. Quick search looks like a new kit with bits is about $800, $500 for just the air hammer. No idea how the new ones compare to the originals. I tried the Astro Pneumatic knock off, but it's just on/off trigger and hard to control versus the variable trigger on the 717. I did install the quick chuck that Astro offers on it though.
Probably pretty pricey but for a new service truck look at the Miller Enpak line. Can get with cold weather enclosure if desired. They have models with a hyd. pump as well.
Last time I checked, a new enpak would run you $30-40k. They are nice units but definitely a major cost.
Last company truck I was in had an enpak, it was a first generation and had a ton of problems the first few years that miller couldn't figure out, they came out with an updated control board and it hasn't had a problem since. When it was time to order a new truck I went with PTO driven crane/compressor.
Definitely not on option on this venture
I see used PH3050s on ebay ranging from $125 to $500. I couldn't find a used CP717, but lots of new ones around the $500 mark. What about needle scales? I have a job coming up that will need one. Are they all the same, or is cheaper, Chinese model just a cheap piece of junk? Any recommendations?
@pumkinhead , I'm working on putting together an F350 service truck for our farm. I'm just planning on using a 30 gallon, gas engine driven compressor that I already have for portable air. We have a full set of Milwaukee tools already, so I mostly need air for tires, blowing off equipment, and blowing out air filters. If I find myself needing more air, I'll address that issue then. I have a friend that is a dealer mechanic for John Deere. He's been at it for 20 years, and said he rarely turns his compressor on anymore with all the quality electric tools that exist. Said he wouldn't take the compressor off the truck, but it doesn't see many hours of use anymore.
A PENNY SAVED IS A PENNY EARNED . Air tools are cheaper than cordless . They last longer I fill better about useing them in really dirty oily , greasy messes , I have them already , its not that big of a job to get a air hose out. When I got my first cordless drill I thought and still think it is a time and money saver but a lot of this other stuff ?? If you are just doing a small job cordless stuff maybe the way to go but a big dirty job ? Are you wanting a cordless or air needle scaler ? I have a cheap air that seems to work ok.
For many years, my Lincoln 250 welder/generator, with a Perkins diesel, powered my 220v air compressor in my service truck. I absolutely HATED having to run an extra engine with an extra battery, extra cooling system, etc, etc. So much wasted time when I had to work on the Perkins or issues associated with it, like running it out of fuel. While it got me through work for a long time, it was always agravating to have so much lost time. When I built up the 2019 F550 (same bed) I installed a PTO system to hydraulically power a Miller 400 welder/generator that had a blown engine. If the truck is not running, I can't work anyways hence the logic in a PTO system. I machined out my own adapter plate, selected the proper hydraulic and driveline components, shortened the welder's frame, installed hydraulic tank & fittings and made the install. While at it, I installed a hydraulic diverter valve, proper sized hydraulic motor and 4 gpm/4 ksi pressure washer pump to the welder's frame. BEST thing I ever did for my service truck needs. Welder, electric power and power washing all in one unit using the truck for the power source. One engine to provide all of the power I need for multiple functions = Efficiency. All of those little additive problems with multiple engines really add up to time burners that absolutely kill time efficiency. I work alone and my available time is precious so I save all that I can, where I can. It's not about fuel efficiency, it is not about cost, it is all about time that I save because I earn a lot more in the operator's seat than anywhere else. Time saved through logical choices pays for investments in tooling in a short order of operating time. (More time operating) + (Less time wrenching) = Maximum Income. This is what works for me. YMMV.
I didn't know cordless needle scales existed
Had the Cat man come out to put our master code into our new 305 and look at some pins that were having difficulty taking grease. His truck was new had an Enpack unit on it. That little unit is quiet, you could hardly hear it running. From what I could tell it ran the electrics on the bed, the crane and the air compressor. Expensive but very nice. Mounted on a Ford 750 extended cab with 6.7 Powerstroke. I'm a Ford pickup guy but I would have chosen a better chassis. Other than that it was a very nice rig.
An Enpack is something a big outfit or very busy HD mechanic/welder would have. Too pricey for the average person to have.
Yeah - I'd imagine that service truck is $300K + new?
Hi Colson, I use one like this and it works pretty good for many years. It's a Ingersoll Rand 125-A
I have a central pneumatic one it seems to work great and I am happy with it. I used it last week on a tractor rim to remove rust and old tire that was stuck around the bead.
If I were building from scratch I would go hydralic compressor on my service bed and not a rotary screw but a good 40 or 50 cfm compressor I scab together three trucks to make my 550 and imt bed go it's well used all the way around but it was the cheapest way and it still got a lot of life the compressor on it is tired and probably needs rebuilt and according to the previous trucks pto hrs that compressor has at least 3000 hrs on it I bought a 750 last year for my Oldman it has 12000lbs crane and a rotary screw compressor it was a municipal truck set up for running jack hammers the rotary screw won't make 150 psi and it needs run harder than airing up tires or it never gets hot enough to dry out the air and it's not cheap to work on at all and it's only got 800 hrs on it and it's 20 years old I am all about buying what works and for the price of a lot of these rotary compressors you can buy three piston compressors and they will last longer When enpak first came out they were a solid solution now they are so expensive there cost prohibited and around here guys idle there trucks all day anyway to run the ac so there is no fuel savings
i'm going the gas compressor route unless i find a deal on a used hydraulic unit. this truck is just to get my feet wet, if things work out hopefully ill be able to upgrade to a newer truck with larger crane etc...
Keep a eye out on Facebook marketplace for the vipers air rotary compressors. They sometimes come up not very expensive. My buddy just picked up the 302 airpark for 5800$ on Facebook, I know it's not a drop in the bucket (especially when your starting out) but it beats the the 22k price of a new one. Also harbor freight has the 30 gallon gas compressor that goes on sale all the time which is also a solid option
The upside to gas engine units they are cheap to buy and run the downside is this, you don't know your going to need it till you do, and that's when your on the job site, meaning you didn't start it till you needed it and then you attempt to start it, if it starts after sitting for days weeks or months is a gamble. With hydraulic drives guess what the truck started to get you to the job site chances are to also get you home your hydraulics will work once at the job site. The older the engine drives get the larger pain they become pretty much sums it up, if I had a dollar for every hour spent fighting with small engine I could have retired decades ago. As for air tools vs cordless I'll take air any day and cordless can be shoved up someone's you know where. Now many can argue this to death I could care less, do I use cordless yes I do but hate them with a passion and reason is simple I live in a cold climate and use them in the cold and in wet locations meaning corded and water don't mix and water and air could if I had several thousand feet of air hose to get the air anywhere near where I have to work. Cordless batteries need to be warm in order to charge and the colder it is the shorter the battery life, so as stupid as it sounds we leave not only a service truck running to keep batteries warm, we have a gas generator running to charge them if it starts the day we need it to run that is and don't forget carbs frost up so you also need a space heater going before the carb freezes up, and as they say the circle jerk never stops. As for electric winches or cranes, when new they are gods gift to mankind once they hit a certain age those too can be shoved up where the sun doesn't shine and are more grief and time consuming than their worth, hydraulic cranes with manual valves work if the truck it's on starts and runs and if not guess what your at home or the shop, not 10 to hundreds of miles from them, the corded or cordless remotes fall under the same category as electric cranes. Yes it's true hours put on service trucks are the highest priced, but they also make you the most money, meaning if not for the truck you have no job or income, myself I'd rather have money tied up in hydraulic drive units which last longer by decades and actually work on the machines I'm supposed to instead of working on small engines or electric controls of my own stuff instead of doing what I'm there for or worse yet not being able to get the tools or engines to run so I can even use them and then I drove to and from for the exercise and get to go home till I can get my own junk fixed and running so once at the job site they actually work. As for letting a service truck run all day, in cold weather in order to warm up this old tired body it idles all day anyhow, but if your not working in sub zero temps but instead the coldest it ever gets is 50 degrees your opinion might be far different but for me when the wind chill is below zero the last thing I want to do is figure out why an air compressor gas engine and welder generator gas engine won't start so I can then start to fix what I was there to fix in the first place, after and only after the welder generator starts will a space heater work, and even if it started before I left the shop doesn't guarantee it will start and stay running at the job site, go ahead and ask how I know, same goes for electric controls on a winch or cranes and a whole list of things. This past weekend my service truck idled all weekend a welder generator run nonstop to run space heaters and multiple battery chargers as we swapped batteries, changed fuel filters, and had multiple block heaters plugged in due to 10 below zero wind chill temps that was after changing spark plugs and replacing the fuel filter on the welder generator first,.............and after 8 hours it ran out of gas only to find out someone took my spare gas can out of my service truck and that's when the bad language started as I looked at my diesel engine service truck with the 300 gallons of fuel in the back which would run for weeks and not a drop of gasoline anywhere in site, and zero cell phone reception, yea those days do exist and the older you get I've found the madder you tend to get over, especially since every day up to then everything started and ran just fine meaning I didn't know I was going to do any of it till I got to the job site.
If I was working those cold temps, I would add in a cheap Chinese diesel air heater on the truck. I've been using these for the past 4 years and really like them. I have a hydronic one in a machine that preheats the engine and hydraulic tank via engine coolant and a heat exchanger. I have thought about running a loop of coolant hose around my grease barrel and putting hydronic on the truck, but the electric blanket heater on the drum works well when I get to a job site in winter as long as it has been plugged in throughout the night.
I’m backing down towards real retirement now, but for the last 20 years I have worked out of a 1 ton K3500 or a F350 SRW truck with a service body that had a cap on it. I always had a generator/welder (Miller Bobcat or Blue Star) in the back and a 110 v air compressor. Most of the places I work at have a big shop air compressor for the bigger jobs, and for just cleaning parts or blowing out a radiator, etc in the field the smaller compressor does the job. The 110v compressor can be run off a wall outlet if I’m at their shop and don’t need a lot of air. By using the welder for power several times a week, it never has let me down from just sitting around, unused w/stale gas or a dead battery. Oh, yeah—-I stay away from tire work. There are younger folks who can do that faster and easier than this 80 year old coot!!
Cold and hydraulics----Just operating winches. I don't know how much time spent spooling cable out then back several times to get the screeching stopped, or blown seal at winch. One reason I like a minimum of 50 gal hydraulic reservoir with a Arctic Fox in tank with engine coolant supplying heat to fluid. At close to zero and minus after a long drive the hydraulics are quiet and smooth. Installed correctly it's not a issue.
They've had frozen hydraulics and even the valves freeze on Highway thru Hell. I don't know if it's bad to leave the hyd. pump engaged to warm the fluid so the winches and such will work when they get to the job? Using a Tiger torch to thaw everything seems an easy way to burn a hose/wire or start something on fire. Tiger Torches are useful but too easy to burn something because nobody wants to wait while things slowly thaw out. They want it thawed out in right away.
Struggling with the compressor issue myself. I run a 3/4 dodge since it will fit about anywhere and get about anywhere but I am sick and tired of running a 500lb gas compressor. I need lots of air volume for blowing out air filters and the main use is blowing out my cooler pack. I used to run two hotdogs and alternate between the two and pressure built back up. Current compressor takes up nearly half the utility bed and the transfer tank takes the other half. I would love to go hydraulic if it were financially feasible.
Is an under hood compressor an option? Thinking it might be less costly than hydraulic.
Not that I am aware of with this vintage of truck ('98 Ram) but if you poked around long enough and got creative then I'm sure it's possible.
Building your own system is relatively cheap compared to package units. The highest cost component is the PTO takeoff and pump. When I built my system on my '19 F550, I had to use the combo PTO/pump unit due to 4x4 option so it was about $2k for that part of the system. The valves, fittings, hoses and hyd reservoir were under $1k. Under $1k for 2 hydraulic motors, $500 for a good 400A welder with blown engine (welder/generator), $400 new 4k psi @ 4 gpm pressure washer pump, $400 120v air compressor with big tank and maybe another $200 for shaft couplers. Total, about $4,500-$5k when I built it. Compare those figures to a package system. I machined out the adapter plates and all mounts myself. I have a flow diverter valve to choose from welder/generator or pressure washer before the pto is engaged. I used to waste several hours every year starting welder engine, refueling, working on welder engine or dealing with dead battery. Time savings paid for the system within the first 2 years. For my work, the pressure washer has become the best thing I've added to the truck. To build a straight air system (which I keep considering) would require a compressor, unloader valve assembly, and a storage tank as a minimal system. Personally, I only use my air system to run my air powered greasing system 90% of the time so the generator & electric compressor are fine for my needs. I usually only need to blow out air filters daily with the Filter Blaster in the really dry months, otherwise that is just weekly or bi-weekly on the filters. I use a handheld or backpack leaf blower more often for general debris blow off.
I think this is a reasonable alternative to the pricey enpak.
Sounds like a good set up. I'm trying to cut down on weight also. Between a utility box with tools, 100 gallons of fuel and a 500lb compressor, the truck hates me. Don't want a bigger truck as I have to wheel pretty hard to get to my jobsites. I work in the Rocky Mountain high desert areas. Dry and dusty as all get out. Have to hit the filters and coolers once, sometimes twice a day. It's ridiculous. Ideally, a Vmac underwood and a premier power welder would be the ticket.
How did you regulate flow for the generator? I have 2 ranger 8s and one hydraulic one would make life a lot easier since my truck has pto hydraulics already
Two items control the hydraulic flow. I used an adjustable hydraulic flow control valve like this: and locked that in once my generator rpm was close to what it needed to be for the desired engine rpm. Then, fine tune the rpm output via the PTO controller. It has a screw adjustment potentiometer that I adjusted that to fine tune the rpm output to the PTO. The PTO controller is like a cruise control in that it attempts to hold a set rpm at all times regardless of the load. Once the PTO controller is set, leave it locked in and do not ever adjust it unless rpms need to be reset. To do the initial engineering of the system, determine the required output horsepower and rpm output by the hydraulic motor. Don't forget to build the system at full rated load and add 10%-25% overbuild for losses if possible. Select the fixed displacement motor for this required speed and flow rate that is balanced with the available PTO pump displacement options. Get your selections close enough and you can do a final trim/balancing with the flow control and speed control to operate at the proper final rpm. Once your genset is calculated out, any other items to be added (pressure washer on mine) are just a matter of selecting a hydraulic motor that will have a close-to-needed output of power/speed that satisfies the need of the tool unless you want to plumb in another speed control valve. A simpler system is cheaper and less to go wrong.
Do you have a tach. or hertz meter to monitor the RPM or generator output? It's pretty neat if the PTO acts like a governor.
I think I used my photo tach and voltmeter when I set it up. The original diesel engine was set at 1800 rpm, if I remember correctly, so my hydraulic motor speed needed to be running in the 1800 rpm range. That was my fixed variable, along with required hp, for the system and I worked it back from there to calculate out everything else for the hydraulic system.
I ran across a pic of my hydraulic conversion that I built. Here it is before I installed it inthe truck. Due to spacing requirements, the adapter plate is about 1.25" thick. Aluminum is easiest to machine. The plumbing has quick disconnects so it is fairly easy to pull out of the truck. Not shown is the added control rod that is at the front of the welder so I can flip the selector valve (to left of pressure washer pump) from the front panel of the welder. I did bolt up the rest of the sheet metal prior to install. Flow control valve is behind the PW pump, reservior is the black sheet metal above the galvanized pipe fittings.
The place I traded my Miller Trailblazer 55D pulled the engine out because it needed a contactor and someone said it wasn't available. Too bad someone didn't have that machine to make into hyd. drive. Rated 400 amp CC/CV at 100% duty cycle but could run well over that no problem. Was originally used for automatic pipeline welding. I wish I could have kept it.
That would have been better than the Big Blue 400 pictured above. It still does not weld as good as my Lincoln 250 does but that engine is still good.
It had 3 slope positions on CV. In 1985 a new one was $15,000cad. When I saw it with the engine pulled I was very saddened and hearing it was because they thought it was too expensive fix made me wish I could have bought it back. Apparently contactor's were the most common fault but they were just a standard Allen Bradley contactor and Miller is pretty good for parts support. I think the TB55 was made till about 95 so at least a 20 year production run. The one I had was the 1st year, 1975. It was a special machine with Arctic modification. It had a Perkins 4-154 diesel with the Thermo-start removed and ether injection added. It also had a circulating heater, oil pan heater and battery warmer. The oil pan was finned so I ender if that was because of the oil pan heater?? Rarest of all was the adjustable radiator shutters. I got it started at -20C without ether and it had mostly summer diesel in the tank. It wouldn't rev. up until it had run for 30 minutes. It didn't have auto idle but newer models did on stick. It wasn't a concern because it was so easy on fuel for what I was using it for. I bought a new 4 drive wheel top of the line Miller 54A wire feeder to run off it. Darn I wish I could have kept. Didn't burn stick like my SA200 red face but having Mig and flux-core capability far outweighed the slight stick limitations. I could weld steel from 22 gauge to unlimited thickness with ease.