I'd like to get some input from anyone willing to share the info. A little history on my business. Started with a home built 1949 unit with 30' hand cranked boom to do our work only. Graduated to a 6 ton RO Stinger, then a 25 T Manitex boom truck. An antique 35 T grove. An AT 50 T Grove. A TMS700E 60T and just readed the 50T for a 100T Liebherr. On all my previous cranes, I treated them as a taxi crane. Operator drove and set the crane up, with maybe a little help from the customer. Hauled all the C/w on the unit. Set up and running with 56' jib in a few minutes. I'm finding it a different story with this 100T crane. Haul 14K C/W on the unit most jobs. some jobs needs the additional 24K, so that entails a semi hauling the weight. The semi driver could help set the unit up, but, somebody has to pay the costs. I knew that going into it. First day I sent the unit out, I took it myself, and took a helper along. Ended up with all the jib out, lifting 85% of full load, 2 hours after dark. Industrial plant..Union workers..They weren't about to lend a hand doing anything. That's OK, they don't mind paying, so I billed them for the helper. Here's a few questions I have. I have a rate in mind, for the crane and operator. Do you guys usually charge flat rate in and out fees? Do you simply charge additional for the helper etc? For instance, if it takes an hour from port to port, and 2 hours to set up, I can see charging 3 hours for the helper/driver/rigger. If, after the unit is set up, it's 4 days on the job, I can see sending the rigger back to the shop. What if it's a 3 hour job before breaking down and moving? He needs to just stay there. I think you can see where I'm going with it. How do you charge? It's sort of like a monkey sitting on top of the cash register taking a leak...It runs into money fast.
As set up the outfit I work for has two stage pricing 1st 8 hrs are charged at a higher rate to cover the costs of move in and out . Most times we will set up the machine up then drop the trailer(s) and go on to the next project . If I have to set the pin on jib sections on the machine that's another charge .
Also have to double check site conditions , Have been on a bunch of jobs that required the machine to be moved from one side to the other and the ground was too rough to leave the weights on so the truck had to remain on the job to shuffle parts . Same consideration if someone is worried about underground utility's , run off reservoirs and the like .
Thanks Tiny. That makes sense. The more I think about it, every project just about needs to be custom quoted. Maybe based on certain rates. I'm sure you guys have crossed every scenario there is.
Yeah, prolly even the ones that resembled a three ring circus with monkeys in charge. :tong
Be prepared for a different growth factor . Around town we had Tilt up contractors building 80,000 lb to 90,000 lb panels . company bought two bigger crawlers and within a year we saw a couple of 150,000 lb panels . Seems like as soon as your steady people find out you have more capacity they find a way to use it.
I could overload the biggest crane ever made...On the first day out.
I noticed that most crane companies don't list an hourly rate anymore. Just daily,weekly and monthly rates. Another thing you take into consideration is mats. You should take the truck to the jobs always with the CW and mats. We have a few places here that require mats for cranes. not the little ones, 8 X 16 area under the pads. Then there is the inevitable while your here could you lift this, but your counter weights are setting in the yard. And it's just out of range for the carry weights. As for mats there an always as far as I'm concerned.
I agree , We use no less than 4X8 mats even if we are sitting on an airport runway.I often forget to mention mats . For us it's an automatic thing
I totally agree with the mats. I wouldn't leave home without them. Playing the devil's advocate here but...I've played this scene out in my head. 14K c/w on the rig. 24K at the shop. Customer says the pick weighs 25,000 at a 35' radius. You drive an hour to get there and you find..it weighs 55,000 and it's a 60' radius. You can do it, but, only with the additional c/w. You've got a 4,000# clerk lift and MAYBE an 8,000# tele handler back at the shop. Neither would even load the c/w. I think I need a cheap trailer and leave the c/w on it at all times.
That is exactly how the company I work for operates , Even have them chained so all you have to do is kick the tires and roll . Just keep in mind that these newer machine's can wiggle in to spots the truck's have a real tough time following . Don't get any longer trailer than needed . When the 48 foot trailer's became legal a lot of company's sold the 40s cheap . The company I work for has all the weights on 40s and one 38 . Only exception is the wing weights for two machines but they are small enough that my boom truck can handle them . Here is a poor pic of the 5150 trailer , boss had some uprights welded on this short drop deck to handle the pin on jib .
Would a 36' work? http://www.truckertotrucker.com/listings/129026.cfm
I could make a 24' work. Its just 24,000#
Including the mats?
Hmmm...in most cases/ I have pretty big set of mats that's on the cranes all the time.
You have been using Cranes long enough to understand this . With the trailer comes the ability to toss a spreader bar on and some rigging maybe a few extra mats Oh and don't forget a dozen shackles . It can be pretty handy ..... and overloaded . With 24,000 it shouldn't be the same as here but it's something that I have to remind my boss's of . One other thing and this may seem too soon because you haven't even bought a trailer yet but make some small mats for the trailer dolly's ....You will need them for soft ground when you unhook from the truck . I do know what happens if one sinks . 2x4s are not mats . Company did have to repair this .
I haven't been involved in the crane business for a number of years, just noodling over a few thoughts. First, I agree with Tiny that to have not enough trailer is far worse than having more than enough trailer. But a 48 footer is certainly not necessary. If you happen to look at 36 foot trailers, there's plenty of them out there, be sure and check for ballast fitted in the frame at front of trailer. This size trailer is a fav of piggyback forklift applications and they fit ballast at the front of trailer to keep tractor wheels on the ground when trailer is unloaded but carrying the piggyback on the rear. That ballast is weight you don't need so see if it will be easy enough to remove it. As for the crane, Tiny would know this far better than me, but I'm thinking a 100 ton crane isn't really a one man operation. A crane that size is going to require the pad mats, heavy rigging, and even the occasional spreader beam as tiny mentioned, so seems to me it would be an operation that would merit a helper to tag along with crane. If that the case, I would think it would be desirable to have a trailer set up to follow the crane around. Helper/truck driver in the tractor/trailer combo, operator driving the crane. Trailer would be geared up with the various things to make lifts, counterweights, mats, tool boxes under the deck for chokers, belts, shackles, seems it would be smart to simply set up a trailer to support the crane. If it's a job that doesn't get finished that day, drop the trailer, then driver and operator ride to shop in truck. Also, maybe it's different in KY, but here in TN the state issues fixed load tags for cranes like that. With that tag you can't carry anything on the crane that ain't nailed down as part of the machine. It doesn't allow carrying anything on the deck. They might overlook a few pieces of cribbing nicely secured, but strapping down heavy mats on the deck would be frowned upon.
I agree with everything you guys are saying. Good food for thought. Besides, how many 24' trailers do you even find out there? Not many. just having to force myself to get away from the idea of a one man taxi crane. Which brings up more thought of quoting in-out-setup fees per job.
for our trailers that get dropped in soft ground alot we either weld a channel across the landing gear from one side to the other or put larger pad feet on them out of 3/8"plate. I even seen one company that had their logo laser cut into the larger dolly pads mainly cuz it looked cool. I agree with the above a 40'-45' trailer is ideal for carrying counterweight plus several spreader bars, shackles, extra load blocks, pads, the best setup i have ever seen was an old safe moving double drop trailer where the counterweights were loaded over the axles and the middle of the trailer held a connex box with a fold out ladder that served as a rigging gang box, break room and site office.
Tiny, you have touched on one of my pet peeves w/ truckdrivers! Why are so many of them incapable of understanding the concept that cribbing under landing gear is based on surface area in square feet? most standard shoes are one square foot each, so it takes 41" of 2x4 or 4x4(3.5") on each side to be as good as the standard shoe. Most drivers seem to believe any old piece of wood has magic powers to keep the trailer from sinking. I give my guys 6 4' 4x4s and tell them to put 3 under each side. I have many times seen them stacked 3 high! Another thing that works good is a 2x2' steel plate under each foot. This was somebody else's trailer, dropped in my way. I tried my best to give him more cribbing, but he said he had wood under it. We had to wait the next morning for the wrecker to get him before we could work. :Banghead :Banghead
We charge from time out to time back. Operator included in base rate. Crew billed extra. A fuel surcharge should also be considered. Crawler crane with conventional boom is a whole other to animal. In and out as well as set up and tear down charges needed here.
Here are some pictures of trailers where I work , You really don't have to stay with a certain style .
You can get creative also this trailer was a mobile batch plant with the bins for sand ,rock and concrete.If you look close there are 3 lugs welded out of 1 inch plate . Lugs for the weight to set on . It was wore out completely so a couple of us got the job of junking the machinery and saving the trailer . worked out pretty good . For giggles I left the old ignition switch in place . last pic the boss worried that the trailer would sink on soft ground and doubled up on the dollys
Thanks Tiny! You da man with photos!
thats a pretty damn cool little counterweight trailer. If they give you extra weight in your home state for having a tridem its even better.
here are a couple pics of the main trailer for our 175ton. the 7x8 steel mats sit at the back with a set of wood mats in front of them, they cut the floor out between the frame and made supports so the big block will stand up with the hook hanging down, the mesh cage carries the man basket and some loose cribbing and the 24000 pound weight sits right up against the gooseneck, rigging and spreaders go in the gooseneck...... just some food for thought. as for our in/out fees, we bill port to port and if the job requires it we have a set $1500 move in or move out, thats if the customer wants us there at daylight or if we are held there till dark and have to drive it back the next day
Update. I've made some decisions. This is the first crane I've had that made me think or plan how much c/w to use. The 60T I have has three 5500# slabs, but, I've always used all 3. This 100T has 35,000# of c/w, consisting of 4-5 slabs. The upper slab can only be installed if the entire 35K c/w is there. So, I've been trying to travel with the upper slab always on. Problem with that , is I'm actually overweight for permitting. I've tried every scenario I can think of, and the entirte c/w needs to be set off, everytime I move. So, I just bought a trailer for the c/w and rigging. I came across a stretch trailer. Closed up, it's 40'. It'll stretch to 60'. It's old, rusted, and the flooring is usable, but, barely. I don't need a 60' trailer often, but, occassionally it will be handy. I'm going to set this trailer up primarily to haul c/w's and rigging. Some sort of structural frames that will bolt down, making the c/w's easy to pin in place w/o the use of chains and boomers everytime. If I ever need the trailer to haul something long, I'll have to remove the c/w, lift the steel frames off, etc. The c/w trailer makes a decision of set up in/out fees simple to make. I'll end up with a flat rate in, flat rate out, on each job. Then, I won't have to worry about overweight fines. Thanks for the input guys.
I'm glad that you have found a workable solution .
And we do expect pics.
sounds like it will be a nice setup
We pulled the trailer into the shop. The pans where the air hoses and electrical wires ride is rusted out. The floor was iffy, so, we're re-flooring it. Might as well repaint it while it's gutted. We're in the process of making some pipe to drop two of the counterweights over so we won't have to chain and boom them down everytime. Simply rotate them up, drop the weights over them and pin in place. The other two counterweights will be different as the big holes don't go all the way through. $7,500 trailer with $15,000 worth of improvements, then it will be worth $10,000.
May be only worth 10K resale value, but if it's set up right, it will priceless for you doing the task for you.
Zactly!
Don't build your pipes for your trailer very large or tight fitting for your counterweight. If your trailer is parked on any kind of a slope or ditch, the counterweight will pic up straight and level and bind up on the pipes. The same thing goes for landing them on the trailer. If the trailer is leaning, the counterweight is hanging straight and it's a big pain. I always prefered a set of guide rails only on one side of the trailer to tap it against, so the weights are always in the right spot, then it doesn't matter when the trailer is on a slope.
You bring up a good point. We got the pipes mounted today. I think we did just what you warned me to not do. I think I made the tolerance too close. 6" sch 40 blk pipe. Hole is like 7-1/2". 6" pipe is 6-5/8". I spect I'll be re fabricating it. Why didn't you warn me earlier? LOL
The outfit I work for charges by the hour shop to shop. Kinda covers you for those times you have to dolly off a mile away and back the truck in after you or whatnot. Each crane has a base charge that might include the rigger and counter weight truck, etc. If the crane doesnt normally get a rigger they get charged by the hour, by the day for pickups, etc. Kinda covers all of the bases for both parties.
Sorry about ruining a good welding job. Look at it this way. At least you know now, instead of getting to the next job site with your new trailer. Then when you got there, 20 ironworkers would be standing there laughing at you when you try to pick the trailer with the counterweight, and ended up borrowing their torch to cut free the weights to do the job. You never live down something like that.
Pulled the trailer out the door. It turned out great. Doesn't look new....but, looks well maintained. This trailer will double as both a c/w trailer and a long trailer if needed. So, didn't want the 6" pipe sticking up. They fold down into a pocket for storage when not in use. Pretty slick. That's on the gooseneck of the trailer. The rear tandems also carry weights, but those weights don't have big holes through them. For now, chains and boomers. Will get some photos next time we use it.