Looking to purchase a sheeps foot roller and pull type scraper sometime in the next year or two for various projects I have up coming. I’d like to size them to the equipment I already have if possible. Looking to be able to use each piece interchangeably between my largest field tractor and my dozer, depending on conditions. Tractor is a Farmall 656 diesel T/A, on 15.5-38 rubber, weighs about 9500lbs, two sets of rear hyd remotes. Dozer is a Case 450c wide track, 20” pads, 70hp, 13,000lbs, will have one set of remotes. As for the equipment I’m thinking a 2.5-3yd dolly wheel scraper is all the tractor will handle, which might be good for the dozer as well or maybe too small, IDK? None of the mfgs list hp requirements for track type tractors on their small scrapers. Only experience with pull type scrapers is a 1.5yd roll over type I use behind my 40hp IH 454, and some seat time running a 5yd behind a 150hp FWA Allis Chalmers 8050. Sheeps foot rollers I have no idea about but I know they pull hard. I know I don’t have enough power for any of the 8’ wide units, maybe a 4-5’ unit? I realize this stuff is comically small to some of you but I think the principles are the same regardless of scale. Anyone have any real world experience with pulling a scraper behind a small 70hp dozer? Any rules of thumb on equipment size of wheel vs track type tractors? Projects that I’ll be using the equipment on include building some small ponds, building pads and farm roads, cleaning out silted in grass waterways and other agricultural drainage work. Thanks in advace.
This is my 504 and Hoelscher DB6 which is 1.8 yards heaped when equipped with the apron. 6 foot cutting edge. The tractor was a gas which is a joke of an engine so I put a diesel 544 engine in it so it's an honest 50hp. It handles the scraper quite well but wouldn't want much less power or much more capacity. I could put front weights on and it would do even better but I purposely don't so I'm less likely to tear up the scraper. I think D4s were matched with 4 yard scrapers so your 450 would have no trouble with a 3 yarder.
I think if your tractor is 9500lbs. I think it would pull a 8ft sheep's foot or pad foot packer fairly easy as long as the ground wasn't real soft. Most of them are filled with diesel and you could always take a little out. I think your tractor would pull a 2 to 3yd. scraper as well. It may be worth looking for a slightly smaller scraper so you could pull it with your tractor most if the time. It would be much faster transporting and save expensive undercarriage wear on your dozer. You could use the dozer if required. I like that Hoelscher scraper. I think they make a few different styles as well. Not sure if they are the same style I looked at a couple years ago that used the 3pt. hitch to set the cutting depth. This would make it much easier to set the same depth repeatedly and not have to look back all time to adjust using a hyd. cylinder. Also good for spreading out the load when dumping.
Thanks for the replies. I like those DB6 scrapers, I too was looking at them before I found my small 1.5yd Soilmover roll over scraper. Sounds like I’m on the right track with my size estimates. My experience with scrapers, at least in our soils, is you put the maximum amount of power in front of them that the mfg recommends. Whats hanging me up is the amount of drawbar pull available from each unit. According to the Nebraska tests the 656 has a maximum drawbar pull of 7500lbs, I believe that test was on pavement. According to my case literature the 450c has a maximum drawbar pull of 15,000lbs (calculated). Someone correct me if I’m wrong but in good soil conditions won’t a track type tractor drawbar pull equal to it’s weight? If so that’s still probably double what the 656 will pull. So I guess I need to find a scraper that the tractor will handle but is strong enough the dozer won’t rip the tongue off lol.
From my limited observations I think you can figure 25-30hp per yard with a wheel tractor. Maybe find a scraper that's in between the dozer and tractor? You can pull the scraper that's closer matched to the dozer with the 656 if you're okay with less than full loads. A smaller scraper will only do it's capacity whichever it's hooked up to. A bigger one will do more yardage with the dozer and probably equal to a smaller one behind the tractor. And you have the option of top loading if you need to move it longer distances with the tractor.
I thought there's only a few dozers that will pull their own weight. A lot depends on the soil type and moisture your on.
Big dozers anyway, will pull more than their own weight. Flat ground a smaller dozer moves a big one just fine.
Any track tractor will usually have at least 1/3 more drawbar pull than they weight. Bad Bob
It depends on a few factors.
This is what I've been told also as a generalization. Wear in the grouser bars, track pad style, ground pressure all are a player along with soil conditions.
I like that little scraper pan and have never seen one that small. Ballpark what does something like that cost? What kind of availability used? I could find use for one on a limited basis.
Neat little rig. Lot of trips.
Mine was a little over 8 grand in 2019. The apron is an option. I wasn't planning to buy a new one but I couldn't find anything small halfway near. I see smaller units like this or a little bigger on Tractorhouse. This one is the biggest Hoelscher makes, 6 foot cut. The others are basically the same, just narrower at 4 and 5 feet. I've moved 800-1000 yards with mine since the fall of 2019. Here's a video a friend made:
Your friend should be dropped kicked in the nards for letting that kid ride on the finder of that tractor. Bad Bob
Many farmers in this area would be kicked in the nads if they didn't let the kiddos ride on the fenders. Kinda like riding in the bed of an open pickup truck. Takes a bit of common sense of course, (I know that is lacking in many) but many raised with common sense tend to inherit the traits.
my siblings and I, used to go up the road on my grandfather's old TEA20. My brother would drive. One on each rear fender, and 2 standing on the draw bar. We would go up the main road to my uncle's, about 3 miles.
It only takes a split second to have a tragedy that can't be reversed. There is no common sense in letting kids ride on equipment that is working. There is a bit of a difference (not much) if you're giving a kid a slow ride where you are holding onto them. A kid fell out of a cabbed tractor up here several years ago and was run over and killed. Somehow the door latch got bumped and it was too late. The tractor was being driven at high speed on the road. I was very close to reporting a former neighbor for putting their young kid in a dangerous situation. They had just got a new zero turn mower and the kids mom (totally careless) was cutting the grass at about 10mph while trying to hold the kid maybe 2 or 3 years old with one arm. Riding mower accidents involving kids are one of the most commonly reported of all kids injuries.
You are wrong.
Tell me that after you help shovel a 4 year old into a rubber bag that fell off a tractor and was brush hogged. Any one who would put a child in that harm's way is an absolute Moron. Bad Bob
I was into the implement dealer this morning servicing diesel "Grasshopper" brand mowers for delivery and asked about one of these small pans. They had heard of the name, but never sold any of their products. They are going to reach out to the vendor and see what I can get one of these for. Also a couple others as I'd like an 8' wide one to use behind the dozer. I'll also look on "tractorhouse" although never have in the past. I see their publication and listings at the dealer as they advertise on there. Thanks,
I bought mine directly from the factory but I'm not sure if that's because they don't have any dealers in my area. Might save you a little coin if they'll sell direct. The price I paid included shipping.
Thanks. I have some roads to make and a creek to bridge on our family property that is very hilly so don't want to enlist an end dump and certainly don't want to push dirt that far. I think a pan would serve to lessen the hillside roadway incline by scraping some near the top, and filling closer to the bottom. The process is reversed once across the creek at the bottom. Like you I've looked for used and haven't ran across anything fitting the size I'm looking for. Many are high priced and need a lot of refurbishment for what is asked. I'd like to have one about 8ft. wide so it could be pulled without a permit when moving distance, and match closely to the dozer.
Hoelscher Commercial Products - DB Scraper Hoelscher is a Bushton, Kansas hay baling equipment and earth moving equipment manufacturer. www.hoelscherinc.com
What attracted me to this one was I can dump the bowl to about a 45 degree angle and use it like a grader planing off the high spots on the fill. I can do a pretty decent job finishing with it. Some others that use the funky monkey motion linkage and do everything with one remote dump over the back and I didn't want to be bouncing over lumpy spreads. This one does a nice job spreading the load. There's also Durabilt that has a 7 foot wide unit. I considered the 5 foot model but the way the bowl and fixed apron work, I didn't think it would be able to swallow large clumps of grass inherent in ditch spoils. https://www.durabiltindustries.com/dirtpan.aspx
I purchased a land plane, (Woods Bros.) but haven't broken it out of the crate yet for finish work. I've never used one myself, but the videos and people I've talked with really say they work slick. This road I want to cut drops about 90 feet+ in a horizontal 750 foot run so quite steep. It is currently wooded where this road is to punch through. Then the same on the other side of the creek to get back to the other side of the property. Currently the back acreage is accessible by ATV and a snug fit with a mid sized SUV. A "ring" road currently exists that goes around in a large arc, but to cut that hillside back to widen to road has basically been ruled out as too much negative impact to the existing tree line as have to comply with aesthetics, and wildlife requirements/demands. If I can get one of these scrapers acquired I think with a couple hydraulic remotes added to my dozer, an another on my 2-55 White mowing tractor, I would be set for this job and into the future needs. I've been around scrapers in many years past but they were all ejector type and much larger. Thanks,
I may have missed it, but what kind of dozer are you using? Sounds like you and I are in a similar situation wanting a decent, smaller pull type scraper. I’m now thinking maybe something in the 3-5yd range would be best suited to my dozer, must be dolly wheel configuration.
It would seem that using a dozer to pull a scraper would be slow and expensive per hour. More of a question than a statement, I have no experience with it. There are quite a few guys with pans leveling fields here for flood irrigation. So while I don't do it, I see a lot of it. Most use Steigers pulling large pans, and MFD tractors pulling smaller pans.
I have a Fiat-Allis 11B tractor. This was a direct competitor with the Caterpillar D6C, and International TD-15 series when new in 1975 as I understand:
In good conditions a wheeled tractor is quicker and cheaper, but when the conditions get tough a crawler tractor will excel. Steep ground, soft ground, hard pulls, etc. Hence my desire to have a scraper sized to both my dozer and farm tractor. The pull type scraper has really fallen out of favor for the small contractor, but IMO it’s one of the best kept secrets in earthmoving. With the right setup and conditions the yardage one man can move with relatively small equipment is remarkable.
Yeah thats a lot more tractor than I’m working with. All the scrapers we’ve been discussing would turn into a pretzel behind a crawler tractor that size!
I certainly understand the undersizing but a scraper would be utilized much more behind the tractor than the crawler; hence the desired size. Sounds very much like we're on the same page with needs. I only have the one personal job needing done which is not small in size and the distance needed addressed is quite a lot to move dirt from and to. If the area were flat I'd use my 51 Mack dump truck to move dirt as I know it would be faster. Our property is former strip mined ground from the 1930's. The hills are piled spoils from before land reclamation was even thought of so the ravines are very steep. It is a 30 acre parcel that is a rectangle and with exception of 2.92 acres of flat area up front at the main entrance, is completely overgrown in trees and brush. There is another near 12 acres at the rear area that is flat but overgrown to be developed. A hunter's paradise really although we limit that activity to just a couple of close friends. It can be a real escape from reality, or the "hum drum" of life for us and the grand kids.
This is my tractor:
that fiat allis will handle a 10 yrd . pan easily
Thanks, I was actually wondering about that earlier. I wonder if the thought process should be more of a larger pan, or scraper an not plan on use behind the tractor? This is a "one off" need really although more use will be found. If I did go with a larger pan then the thought process would probably go back to a sheep's foot roller also as the fill, or lifts would be deeper. I have no experience with this dozer in operation so feel free to contribute. Thanks,
An older 6-10 yard scraper built heavy for a dozer will be half or a tenth the price of a lighter newer pan built for a tractor also, and often easier to find.
On various sites I've been looking at I do continue to see several pans built for being pulled with a dozer. I've looked at a couple local offerings and they have just been almost worn out but still priced high IMO. Still not seeing a lot of the smaller ones for tractor use. It was this dual purpose in mind being the motivator for the smaller unit. I have the dozer, and means to move it readily, but dependent upon physical weight, could I do everything in a single move? I don't know as too many open ends now. The short time I worked in the miines I was apprentice training on tracked undercarriage, finals repair, and line boring work. The only scrapers I seen, but never worked around were IH "PayScraper" branded and self powered. I think one had an engine in the front and rear but don't remember for certain. Don't mind buying something needing "trued up", but don't want a major reconstruction as don't have the infrastructure in place for that.
Depending on how you can handle running junk, "almost worn out" will do a whole lot of work compared to the typical newer tractor scraper, and stand up to a dozer that size, rather than "pretzel".
Appreciate your input and to be honest, I don't get along with running "junk" very well at all. Just me. If I drag something home that is loose I can line bore and weld it up for correct operation if the project is deemed worthy. I have that setup and most tooling needed adding to it when needed. Ran by and looked at a pan this morning I'd ruled out last year. It is a converted from cable operation to hydraulic and well worn in any joint that has movement. One tire is very worn and the other has zippered from age, and exposure. I want to say this was pulled by either a D7, or D8 dozer but I've never seen it operate. It is loose in the hinges and I don't think I'd have the equipment to safely support breaking it apart for repairs. I could purchase for scrap price easy enough but I'd think it would be better off to purchase something in better condition. I'd left my phone at home but will go back this next week and snap photos. Don't know if something I should pursue or not. I didn't see any name tags or model numbers anyplace. The paddles are worn and the cutting edge is in the dirt for many years actually buried but well blunted from use. This is at a former coal mine that shut down in the mid 1990's.
Probably not if you'd be fixing everything. Running it yourself is a little different, you don't have to worry about an employee pulling it apart with the dozer. If you're the only one that will use it with the dozer, you can be a little more careful. Is this an elevating scraper, not that it matters.
I believe it is as supposedly the former cable apparatus was used to lift the cutting edge. Much of the original apparatus has been replaced with hydraulic cylinders that look to direct act on the bowl and frame.
Talked to the guy today and it is a ground driven elevating scraper. He thought "Johnson" was the brand but couldn't remember for sure. Also thinks it's about 8 yards but could be 10. I have no experience myself but it was cable operated and pulled with a D7, or D8 dozer working the local area in the many small coal mines of the day. No PTO input from a pulling unit at all; all ground driven. I'm told it was pulled from mine to mine by a truck on the roadways and easy to attach to anything with a drawbar to make it work. I asked about the hydraulic cylinders and they've never been used. It was being worked with when the last area privately owned mine announced closure in 1976 and nothing further was done. It has been setting since. I didn't realize it but the D8 pulling unit is on the other side of the tree line and has been sitting many years also.
Thought I'd update this thread. I pickup up a nice little 4' wide sheepsfoot roller today. Got a building pad and a road project soon that this will work good for. Just pulled it around a little empty, I'm thinking full of water it's going to be a full pull for the old IH: I need to make a hammerstrap to bolt on my drawbar and grease it, but otherwise it should be ready to go. By my measurement it will hold 175gal when 3/4 full, so if I use water that's another 1400lbs or 1250lbs if I use oil. For the time being I'm just going to fill it with water when I'm using it and then drain it when finished to keep it from freezing/rusting. I might eventually fill it with used oil, but I need to accumulate some more. I hope the 656 will pull it, it turns really sharp for a tractor that size and would be pretty handy. If not the dozer should have no problem with it.
I approve of the tractor and the roller.
Don't fill it with water. Use windshield washer fluid or something that won't freeze. In the past a lot of them were filled with diesel. I've seen one that was badly damaged by water freezing in it.
Thanks, thats my ‘big’ tractor on the farm, pulls the haybine, round baler, bush hog etc. It also has an IH 2250 quick attach loader. I’ve always like the 656/666/686 IH tractors. Those and the 3020 JD were the best 65-70 hp row crop tractors of their day IMO.
I’m well aware, this will be used only during the warm weather months and drained at the end of each job.
Wouldn't that be a bit of a pain having to fill and drain it all the time?
Yes and no, the benefit is it will be easier to transport and not tear up the driveway/ground as much moving it around empty. When I get enough used oil I'll probably fill it permanently, diesel is too expensive.