Had to press out the top articulation joint pin on my Cat D25C rock truck yesterday because it wouldn’t take grease. The bushing is cracked so I cleaned up the pin and drilled the packed dirt out of it so it would take grease again. Put it back together. I got on the Cat site and priced out the pins and bushings to do both joints. Over $1300 each for pins and $360 each for bushings. These are small pins and bushings. Are prices like this across the board? On my Komatsu D57S-1 track loader I priced out the 4 injector cups ( sleeves ) and the Komatsu guys quoted $1450 per unit. Again I’m at a loss. I’ll be looking at after market parts on these items. Anyone got any supplier suggestions? I’m going to see if the Komatsu guys can recommend a puller/installer so I can re use the cups. Thanks Guys
Might try American crane and tractor parts, we source things from them from time to time.
My opinion would get me a vacation.
Thanks ahart.
I don't think the aftermarket pool is as large for machinery as in the auto industry, I could be wrong, but I guess they figure you bought it to make money, so you can afford to pay for it.
Too right. Parts aren't expensive. People are cheap.......... Parts are simply one factor in the O&O cost of Big Yellow iron.
The backhoe from work I have been thinking on buying. I don't have a farm. I could probably find odd jobs for it. I could run it steady in winter plowing, but then I look at the cost of parts and it makes me shudder. I might get it, and never have an issue... besides the wiring repair I have to do right off the hop. But what if it does break, then I'm stuck paying any bit of money I might be able to make with it, or even worse, and have to put my own funds into it. I see one of the requirements of people asking about company start ups as having enough capital set aside for repairs, and regular maintainance.
I hear you Nige on the cheap deal. But the prices are getting out of hand. I was is the water and sewer business for 30 years buying, servicing and fixing our equipment and watched the costs over that time period. I have been farming since 2014 and just started buying equipment again. I remember what parts cost then but now it’s crazy expensive. I do understand there are shortages, inflation pressures on materials and fuel. I get it. Doesn’t make it right.
WE just have to remember that the person in the office where they make and sell this stuff is more concerned about making more money than saving us any
I remember an article in Popular Mechanics (I think) a long time ago. They took a Honda dirt bike that cost like $3000 brand new. They then bought each part of the bike individually. The cost as I recall was like 12K. At the end of the day, you already own the equipment, you will pay a premium to keep it moving. The cost of not fixing it is typically way more expensive than not, so you get the checkbook out.
Or fire up the lathe and get after it Parts are what they are I bet you will find the dealer has a very health margin on them but I figure if i cant stand being whittled down cause I am making money the parts department is probably in the same boat
If you want parts availability especially for long out of production machines you are going to pay for that convenience. You are also going to pay the price for a good quality part instead of a cheap piece of crap.
Plus Manufactures are only going to support old machinery so long. They are in the business of designing and selling new. Otherwise Cat would still be building 14A D8's.
I am in manufacturing/engineering. I see a lot of this as a moving target. Right now, I am seeing price gouge to the max. People are seeing what they can get away with. I have seen parts at $300, then $500 a week later, then back to $300. They are gouging. They are all making excuses about it too. Fuel is no exception!! There is ZERO reason for the price to be high other than oil guys take advantage of any change in the world as an excuse to raise price. They act like they can't hit demand when I know full well they have 80% of the wells on a trickle. I'd love to build quality components for this industry, but to be honest, no one cares about quality anymore. Not even one! Even in the first post, it is about price. If only I could get my hands on some of that bubblegum alloy crap they call steel in China. I am just not that dishonest. I have learned that several industries have zero understanding of quality so they shop on prices. $5 is all it takes! But if demand is not there, guys are also waiting to gouge that market good. Actually we innovated several parts in the auto racing markets. I personally designed and programmed them. Use to get people whining about price, but we are talking $60 for one part. They act like it should cost what the OEM does, which was friggin casted plastic and mine is a machined and hobbed part!!!! Then some asshat sent my part to China to be made cheaper. They of course did a complete **** job and everyone stopped buying ours. Then China did what they do, which is just sell it directly to consumers. This is the pattern guys! People will whine paying a little more, even while getting REAL phone support, warranty, and knowing they got the good stuff. I still have guys online wanting to know where we went, why we don't answer the phone, etc. YUP!!!!!! Call China and tell them about your problem!!!! Me sow sowey!!! Not really. There is no one to call. I engineered many parts and they were all stolen by morons that don't even know the different between tension and compression, but they try to act like they do. Then wonder why I made an exit from that industry!!!! Love to design/build parts for this industry but not convinced it will be much different.
There is a difference between making a profit and gouging. Western Star dealer wants $250 for window handle crank, why even carry a part at such a obscene price? Why is a cab filter that is 6"x6" for my mini hoe $100, but for my 210 hoe filter is 3x the size for $40? One part can be a reasonable price, another can be highway robbery there is no rhyme or reason, and those filters were that insane difference before covid. For things like pins and bushings, machine shop can be much cheaper. Manufacturers are partly to blame, they change a part a tiny bit every few years so they need to carry a million different ones instead of leaving it the same.
Love that phrase, "Parts aren't expensive. People are cheap..." I am sure I'll use something similar down the road
Big companies are run by thousands of people smart out of college, each one thinks he knows how to squeeze a little more profit out of the end customer but knows nothing about the parts he is selling. That is my theory about why prices are all over the map.
I have entirely too many stories and I guess that is a sign of age.....and I don't even feel old. I was approached in person by a guy working for a company I made parts for. He mentioned that they needed to get parts cheaper and I either had to cut my costs or lose the contract when it renewed. I was not even that old when he came in, and I asked him, "so how long have you worked for the company?" About 2months!!!! His degree was in marketing, he knew nothing of how to make a damn thing, and I straight told him he was brought in at 60K yr and told to justify his wages. Just go F yourself and tell your boss I will expect the contracting to end. I got a call from upper management that "you are all good, we love your work".... This still just burns my azz. F you! Trying to screw me over to pay your worthless wage. I am sure Johnny boy was terminated not to long after because his arrogance got him nowhere. I know what parts should and could cost. Then I know when there is stupid gouging going on. I don't know all processes like casting and stamping, but machinging/turning/grinding/etc, I gotchew. But I will say, there are plenty of parts I can say, "HTF you offer this so cheap!!!".... I have known some smart guys working USA castings that do parts pretty damn right! Sad that we don't reward them!
I'll be the first to admit that I'm tight with my money. Few things aggravate me more than overpriced parts from OEM dealers, no matter the brand. I'm always looking for backdoor solutions. Aliexpress, Ebay and other solutions offer parts for popular older equipment at much cheaper prices. That's where I shop for a lot of my PC200-6 parts. American Sleeve Bearing in CT is my go-to for bushings and bushing stock for generic bushings. Allegheny-York is another bushing supplier. Sometimes I have to machine it to size and other times it's a perfect fit replacement. Komatsu wanted $2,500+ for a new monitor that had a recall but I was never notified and the recall passed. I got a brand new Komatsu LCD display, the part that was bad, for $55 shipped from China. Yes, I had to de-solder and solder in 88 pins but I now have a perfectly working and readable display. Other Komatsu sensors here were $125 each but I purchased identical original Komatsu equipment from a China supplier for $26 each = $130, shipped, for a 5 pack. At these price differentials, I have no problem dealing with Chinese suppliers. Menzi Muck is maybe the king of pricing on parts. $154 bushing via OEM - ordered for $20 at ASB but I did have to machine off 5 mm OD on the lathe. There are at least 24 of these bushings on the legs so at least $3,200 savings and these prices are at early 2020 levels. Other $125 OEM bushings were purchased for under $7 each and did not require any machining. Bottom line is, if you can't fix it yourself, you are going to pay through the nose and then some. It might take some research time to find the right replacement part but the savings are usually worth it.
I used to work for an electrical utility. I looked after a fleet of internationals all with DT466 engines. I had the valve cover off of one of the DT466s. The connector from the engine harness to the internal injector harness was worn out. I replaced both harnesses. The injector harness was under $200 and the engine harness was $250. This was around 2006. Four years ago those same harnesses were $800 and $2300. A little more that the rate of inflation.
They are charging you storage fees for that part sitting on the shelf for 30 years
No one keeps anything in stock anymore. One time there were 5 parts stores here. Their buildings were huge. It was rare that they had to order anything, and if they did, it could be that afternoon, or the next morning. Now everything is 800 miles away.
Lots of crying. No solutions. Stay calm, modify and adjust.
Out of genuine curiosity, how? I've been thinking this over and over but I don't see a way to get around it. Maybe I'm not being creative enough? Even if the customer doesn't worry about the price too much, the lack of availability is appalling. Local cat store tried talking me into shipping a quick-attach actuator from Australia or my other option was to put my name on a list, wait for however long it took to get back in stock, and hope that the limited supply wasn't gone before my name came up. In the end the customer had to wait 2 months for one to make it to us. Luckily the machine wasn't down because I made manual coupler levers for it but I received a call about it almost every other day feom the customer asking about the parts until I told them to start calling the cat parts counter.
Today's 'just in time' delivery chain doesn't help either. This way manufacturers don't get stuck with a lot of unallocated/unsold inventory which hurts their bottom line. So basically the end-user has to bear the cost of critical parts inventory and not the dealership or manufacturer. Therefore, some of the increased cost of parts may be due to shorter production runs of a part, especially castings, because of the continual changing of molds or tooling. Downtime in any production line costs money and lost production. Think of it as custom made, limited production parts. I'm not saying its right, that's just the way it is
we run into that with our old T455 trencher. I dont think they want to support them so they just jack up the price
Also, OEM's make more profit on fast-moving parts just because of the sheer volume, not low-demand items. Then you add to the problem because a lot of parts are out-sourced to other companies. No manufacturer makes all of their own parts nowadays. It's another reason we run into supply-chain issues and inconsistent pricing.
High usage items I stock 3 months ahead. I have no choice.
As a buissness I have learned that my own parts inventory prevents downtime witch is what keeps us making money and if I am buying inventory and not replacing I can shop
Agreed, emergency repairs cause emergency buying. There still are a few deals out there but you have to stay ahead of the curve.
I used to work for an electrical utility. I used keep a pretty good inventory of Navistar parts for Maxxfarce 9 and 10 engines. The local Navistar dealer was always calling and borrowing parts off me.
I read somewhere that cat said their parts revenues are worth 10 times what a price of the the machine is new. A 100k machine will bring them a million in parts revenue over the life of the machine.
Boy, that seems a little hard to believe.
With inflation factored in I don't think it's that far of a stretch.
Parts and service sales at the dealerships nearly in all cases pay all the operating costs of the business. It's called absorption and is a metric by which the management of the business is judged on.
Most semi trucks, say a Pete 359 built in 1984, will have had two in-frames and most likely a complete. At least three transmissions and three sets of rear drives. 14 plus sets of drive tires. At least one radiator, Three turbos, Suspension rebuilt at least once. Countless brake components, king pins, 5 starters, who knows how many batteries, exhaust rebuilt three times. the list goes on. Add that up on a truck that cost $53,000 new.
Posted in jokes, but, Appropriate for this thread ...
I don’t know about that much but maybe. I have heard that the parts and service revenue is more important than the initial sale profit and that we start seeing serious parts sales for an average machine once it hits the 3 year old mark. one of our customers trades their machines in when they get to 10000 hours. For them they figure that’s the sweet spot between getting good use out of a machine and paying reasonable parts cost before major repairs start getting too frequent.
That's got to be at least 1.5 million miles to need that kind of repairs though, and something the vast majority of trucks never see except for a small amount of OTR trucks. Take away the bunch of trucks that die early from accidents, or end up parked due to a breakdown, or end up in a farmers field, or in severe duty applications that will not last that long.
‘Caterpillar parts………reassuringly expensive’………….
That’s probably why they figure on 10x. In any other brand it’s only a fraction of that.
I sulk from time to time over the price of certain parts for my comercial and leisure vehicles,but I remind myself that if I don’t like it,then sell up and go flip burgers at McDonalds instead
Totally. As much as I complain about parts prices and rates being low, still making an extremely good living. But paying $1000 for a wiper controller which is just a tiny board really pissed me off though, I bet it didn’t cost $10 to make.
The ability to make an ‘extremely good living’ as you put it,seems to have eluded me over the years but I do ‘fair to middling’ (that’s a common English term for modesty) .I put this down primarily to having half an idea how to move muck and sticking with the Cat brand.Yes parts aren’t cheap but neither is a Cat machine and you can allways sell a Cat if you have to. Budgies are the only thing going cheap and see how much you can sell one of those for in hard times
I got lost in all the comments. I apologize if it's a repeat. This is the beautiful thing about capitalism. If I have something you need I can charge whatever price I value that service or component at. You are not forced to use my services or products. Aside from some shady price gouging in the pharmaceutical world most price changes and adjustments are well within the ethical and legal definition of capitalism. The pin and bushing in question does sound expensive. However you have to keep in mind it isn't just the material expense. The manufacturing company has a cost of keeping that component on the shelf as inventory. The less common a component the more expensive each piece will cost. Largely because all the extra expenses related to production, inventory and processing are distributed over a larger set of units sold; ie more pieces sold with less extra per piece. All that being said I would investigate possibly sourcing custom machined components and or learning to make my own repair pieces. This has a potential to be expensive as well. If the replacement custom pieces do not perform as well as the factory originals you might end up changing them multiple times or worst case scenario get stuck from a failed component. Without knowing all the details of the pin I could estimate a machine shop would bill out anywhere from $300 -$600 for a pin. If it requires heat treating or hard chrome it will be an additional expense. The extra processing is where the fees will spike. Usually these services have a minimum charge. The process itself is cheap on a per piece part of volume orders. Heat treating a basket of pins would require the same amount of work as a single piece. It might be time for an in house machine shop? I would definitely try my hand at maching a new pin. Not so sure on the bushings. Keep in mind the material hardness needs to differ by a minimum of 5 points on the HRC hardness scale. If they do not it's a good chance they will pick up and metal 'galling' could occur between the pin and bushing. Possibly more than what you asked for..... Just my thoughts. Cheers,
And then add 'proprietary' protection on electronic and computerized components and software or other technology and then you have a situation that has the potential to be VERY expensive after the warranty is off for the cost of repair until patents expire or somebody offshore reverse engineers the widget and offers it for sale on the web for a reasonable price
I worked behind the parts counter at a Kenworth Dealer in British Columbia for a couple years. A owner operator came in looking for a fuel tank cap. I looked it up and we had one. It was $99.00 He hit the roof and said "I can buy that for under $50.00 in Alberta and stormed out. For curiosity I phoned a KW dealer in Edmonton Alberta and asked if the had a fuel cap for that truck. They did and it was just under $50.00. Our computer inventory system said that we paid more than $50.00 for that cap. Some dealers are crooks.
I think pricing can be regional as well. When the paper mill was in full swing, and people were making union wages, the car dealers were crazy, you could drive an hour and get a way better deal.
That is pretty much normal mark up for many outfits, I have a buddy and his good friend would mark up 100% and he was the lest expensive to purchase from. Go figure. The ones I like the best are the lies auto dealers say, and sorry there is no way they can pay for 5 million dollar dealership buildings by shop warranty work, or $500 over what they say they pay for the cars from the manufacture. Mark up, just a huge hidden tax. Ya all need to try living on a fixed retirement income, the tunes would change.
Dealers at least stateside are allowed to charge full MSRP on parts. Most of them incorporate a discount over the list price, but it isn't always universal. I used to purchase all my replacement car parts from my local Ford dealership. The parts guy knew returning customers were better than making a killing off of a single sale. I would even buy spark plugs, wires and brake parts from him when aftermarket units were readily available. I was a regular customer. Flash forward a few years and the parts department rearranged personnel. My regular parts guy was replaced with a younger more business oriented woman. I made a total of one purchase from her. I informed her of my previous arrangement and how I would purchase all components from them. After I left I researched in more detail and discovered it was readily available at a fraction of what she charged me. I could even purchase it from other dealers for much less. That was my last purchase from them. Now I shop more in the old intra nets and do not have a dedicated source for factory Ford parts.
I had a similar situation at Dodge dealer, many years ago I bought a few trucks a year at auction and flipped for profit so I was always buying parts, I got between 10-20% off at dealer depending on part so virtually all parts were actually a good price and the parts guy was good, none of this I need your vin for windshield wipers deal. After a very unfortunate event unfolding at the dealer there was new parts people who were awful and after a few times of dealing with incompetence starting going elsewhere.
Sounds like the exact same experience! I think it stems from owners and businesses focusing only on profits. 'our parts department had more sales than the neighboring dealer, but only made a small amount more'. Pay no attention to the fact they generated more customer loyalty and return customers. Turning of times I suppose.
FastLine’ you are 100% correct in everything you wrote. Exactly the same stories applied here in my small town in the manufacturing ind. from rail cars to chocolate factories bought for nothing and moved to Mexico.no machine shop can Compare to china either. As I was getting ready to retire and wanting to keep metal working and designing items for my self and making a few dollars on the side I purchased welding machine(s) and a lathe,milling machine for my hobbies for my enjoyment to be able to dream up stuff and build it. From excavator thumbs mods, to reversing gear to allow the install my 6ft snow blower on the front of my tractor instead of the rear to tire changers and balancers, even a couple of cannons. Too much of our trade skills are being lost over sea and we need young skill trades persons to ensure we don’t lose our future industrial independents. I was just one of this kids who grew up and didn’t know we were poor but my dad could built anything from nothing and I wanted to be the same,so I had to work for everything and learn to share with others who couldn’t.
The dealer I worked for had a bonus system for the parts manager. There were different levels of bonus depending on each months sales. The last week of the month the parts manager would go through all the months invoices and work orders and adjust prices in order and make the next level of bonus.
A dealer by definition in a capitalist system is able to put any price they want on an asset they are intending to sell. It is only the law of supply and demand that keeps prices in check. The only caveat to that is an outside source of influence such as contractural obligations and rules established through societal rules and/or regulations. That you got a better price is because you changed your status in the level of trade. You went from a retail level to a wholesale level simply because of the number of interactions and maybe a tax number. In today's economy, the checks and balances have been short circuited by past political practice and the sudden changes due to a pandemic. What might be asked is how much of these price changes are due to industries taking advantage of the situation? Why is the cost of power so high? Nothing has changed in the production and supply to the masses except the retail price.
It's like the suppliers collectively decided they were being too nice and decided to start wringing every drop. I have actually heard internal comments to that effect. I was kind of locked in with them at the time, but since then things have changed and I only go to them when I have to now. "Excessive profits breed ruinous competition." That is in a book somewhere. We have not gotten to the ruinous competition stage yet. But it is coming. Unless regulatory influence is applied to keep competition out. We all know that happens as well.
The way fuel is going up I think it won't be too long equipment costs may come down, especially if the interest rates start the up creep. Housing will take a dive and so will construction projects. Farming will be the only demand for machinery and parts etc. The way things are going I see huge auctions in the future. Just a prediction.
There is no cure for high prices like high prices
I was just discussing this yesterday. The housing market is going to drive the economy. The major issue I see is everyone continuing to build new houses during high material prices. I spoke with an excavator in 2020 and one of his foundation digs had a $21k price hike just for lumber! Yet the customers still choose to complete the house construction. I just don't understand. Decisions like this will ultimately yield one of two things; massive inflation or a housing crash. The crash would come if everything stabilizes and home owners realize they are paying $200 for a $120k home. Not 100% related to parts, but the economy as a whole. At the end of the day if people are willing to pay for it then someone's sure to sell it to them.....I'm not buying. I think strayed off topic on this and will stop posting my opinions. Make smart choices and educated purchases. Stay safe everyone! Cheers,
this crash is going to make the last one look like nothing and no amount of spending funny money is going to make it “recover” it will bring down this made up economy completely and we will see hyperinflation and quite likely a complete collapse of government. I’ve studied enough history and economics to know that this cannot stand. It’s going to be wild. and they are choosing to complete the build in the face of high material cost because they have to due to the extreme demand in many areas. I can sell my house for twice what I paid for it but because so many are moving here I would not be able to get into another house easily at all. We have people selling 400-500k crappy normal houses out in Cali and bringing that huge cash amount here and buying any piece of property they want, often sight unseen, and either they are buying a new build house or if it’s an existing house they do a remodal or teardown to get what they want and they spend tens of thousands like a normal person spends dollars. A person like me who has to to finance a house and deal with all that process has no chance for putting an offer in against a cash plus I’ll give you $50k over list buyer. Not to mention I can’t afford the houses anyway.
i bought a digital voice recorder, and a $3 plastic battery tray is $60. I refused to pay, and used a USB battery to drive it.
But it’s ok. We have no more icky tweets. What’s inflation, a destroyed economy, and communists.
Car salesman said this to me one time. People don't care what the car costs anymore, they just want to know the monthly payment is. I hate taking a car loan for 48 months, now you can do 84. Wife bought a new pair of Lululemon pants on line. They were $98. They take 4 monthly payments.....Why? It's $98!!! The government lowered the interest rate here to help people get out of debt. What does everyone do...... Borrow more money. You can mortgage a camper trailer now....why. I remember when car dealers were thrilled if you paid cash. Not anymore... especially if you can finance through them....
Energy costs are what drives the economy. Everything starts at the cost of starting and running some kind of machine. It is inevitable that alternate sources of energy are the future of the planet. The petro companies are banking on the upheaval from the last president and the pandemic to guarantee their golden parachutes.
I would say otherwise. I own shares of BP & Shell. I am concerned that their management is leading the companies into the "green" neglecting the primary business. I look at my electric bill... every month I see a renewable energy surcharge. Alternate energy is a chimera, foisted on the public to enrich a few. If the few do succeed, living standards will be decreased .
One more thought about the "Green Energy" (Not my original thought, but still true) "...until coal and oil came along, all civilizations were based on slavery or serfdom of some kind." That's what the Greens actually want, of course the elites will still have their private jets and ocean yachts with peons eager to serve them.
The World Economic Forum jackwagons who think you should eat bugs (literally) while they eat steak.
If you live in an area where you can actually buy a house for $200k that's pretty dahm good! Here prices aren't anywhere as insane as many others but if you want a single family house new is $400k and that's basic and not very big. Prices haven't went crazy though, I bought my first place 11 years ago, it has maybe went up 5%, before the last year I would say it hasn't went up at all really so it was actually due for it. I think the biggest thing that is going to become a problem is the cost of a house compared to wages, people just won't be able to afford them. I don't foresee a big crash at least not here, but one or the other will have to give.
You live in Canada. What makes you think we have the same issue?
Our economies reflect each other, always have. Your country deals with more money, but you have a larger population. 38 million to 330 million. We pay more in taxes, but that comes with our borderline socialist ways. Prices go up there, prices go up here. Actually we are probably more so affected by what goes on in the US, than you are affected by what goes on here. If it's snowin in Boston, I know it's gonna snow here.
The major economies on earth are intertwined through trade, financial institutions, political agreements etc. Large institutional investment companies like Blackrock, big corporations like Amazon, how about the Melinda and Bill Gates Foundation. These all have influence globally. As for housing prices in Canada the average price last year was $720,850.00. Toronto and Vancouver skew the price with their inflated prices.
An housing is regional as well. I live in a 3 bedroom bungalow that was built in the 70s, full basement, and a corner lot that is less than 1 acre. My tax assessment is based on $128 000. I could probably sell for $250 000 based on prices. My nephew bought a 20 acre lot with an old farm house on the river before the housing boom for about $225 000. The house itself is not worth much, it's the property. He priced a 4 bedroom prefab bungalow $450 000 not including foundation. A big factor driving up prices are people moving out of Ontario. Even at these inflated prices, they can sell their homes for big money, buy a home here, and still put money in the bank. I don't care if they come, as long as they don't bring city problems.