Hi guys, I purchased a Deere 892D for some projects around home and badly need some advice on the hydraulic system. It had been sitting and the oil looked good when I bought it, by the time I got it home and ran up the drive it looked like milk and I noticed both lift cylinders leaking. I took both cylinders to local shop, bought new oil and started taking things apart to get it cleaned up. Cylinders turned out to have barrels scored beyond repair and I have since ordered rebuilt cylinders. I have now found some steel shavings in the tank, meaning they have already been through the valve bank. They are pretty small and I had to use a magnet to find them. Do I need to pull that valve bank now to prevent further damage or give it a shot and hope it’s not already destroyed? Am I risking further damage just pulling lines to drain and starting with fresh oil? I did not find anything in the oil from the pumps or the pilot filter, just milky. Looks like this was not my best purchase ever but I don’t have a ton of money and I’m pretty deep in for failure now. Help!
Good day Your post sounds like serious contamination in your shoes I would drain - remove - all components - clean and reassemble after which point add new fluid. Milky is a good expression of water ingress, water will implode under pressure into the components causing real damage draining is the only method I am aware of removing that element. There are cleaning machines on the market maybe worth considering to make the final clean up. Establishing how the fluid came to be in that condition and stopping reoccurrence may well save some bucks later. Regular oil sampling should be able to measure your action, as small particles invisible to the naked eye can cause real costly damage. Sorry my comments are not so kind. Uffex
I would want to know why those cylinders were scored. Was it from the water intrusion or is something binding? Just make sure everything is free and in proper alignment before fitting the reman cylinders. What does your tank return filter look like, with the oil out you should be able to clearly see the bottom of the filter well. Let's look at what kinda metal you have. Is it magnetic or is it brass? That's gonna tell you how bad things are. As Uffex mentioned above, drain every possible place where oil and dirt can hide. Yes, it's a lot of work, yes, you can do it. There are very generous JD techs on here that will provide tech specs and procedures if you get in a bind. With the cost of oil , this is going to hurt. Is your machine fitted with a case drain filter? Those are great places to get a snapshot of the health of the machine. Good luck.
Being inexperienced, I believe the damage and water originated in those lift cylinders because the wipers were broken up. I have the tank wiped out clean and found some metal shavings in the outgoing strainer filter with a magnet. I have found none that look like brass anywhere. I ran some oil out of the pump through a rag and found no particles of any kind there. I was maybe hoping someone would tell me the fresh oil would push any leftovers out of the valve bank to the filter but I think I already know the right thing is to pull it apart now.
Also, the local place has a filter cart for rent. I had planned to rent after the machine is running again and filter the new oil for contamination I missed, maybe even use it for the initial fill? Sound like that is no replacement for the valve bank tear down though….
Good day Ben I would be doubtful that any volume of water could enter the hydraulic system via the cylinder rod seals, far more likely has been introduced by careless topping up, another possibility is that the tank is in fact a pressure vessel not dissimilar to an air compressor tank, accumulation of water is a natural process many manufacturers will recommend that operators open the drain cock first thing before starting work, as mineral oil will float on water the draining once monthly will reduce the risk. Kind regards Uffex
That does sound like a reasonable possibility. I really don’t know where the water came from. This machine however does not have a drain cock I can find. I had to loosen a rubber fitting to get the majority of oil out of the tank.
Good day Ben I do not have an operator's manual for your machine, but I got this from a contact with a JD 350 must be similar. Kind regards Uffex
I’ll look again tomorrow but I found nothing but a 1/4” plug in the outlet elbow and it’s tough to get to. Didn’t see anything from inside either.
Like to know more about how/where you got the machine. Sounds like a typical auction fire sale, with known issues. You have all the hallmarks of a severely contaminated system that is now destroying every single thing in the system. Water bad enough to turn your oil to a milkshake is severe, which causes a lack of lubricity in the pumps, they eat themselves, and send that mess to everything in the system. This is literally like the nighmares I have heard of with hydro machines. With really bad hydro cylinder seals, it is indeed possible to ingest a lot of water, but it takes time. Usually there is more to it, like someone left the filler cap off, it rained, they ran it, ruined it, and sold it to you. When one goes this bad, you end up tearing down everything. Weigh your time here. If you like a challenge, you need to crash cart that machine asap. That means external loop filtration. Very first thing I would do is pull all filters and cut them open. This gives you a snapshot into the hydro system. Each filter means something in it's location.
Good day In a well-designed tank - reservoir will have a conical catch beneath the tank with a stop valve for ease of maintenance. Maybe JD overlooked the feature when making 892D machine. kind regards Uffex
The lowest point to drain from is the sump pipe. Follow the feed pipe from the inlet of the pump back to the tank. Somewhere along the line should be a drain or maybe even a sensor you could remove to drain the oil. Good luck.
I've always used a barrel pump to drain hydraulic tanks. The plate on top of the tank that has the fill cap has a stud on the under side. That fits into a pipe section with a spring in it and holds the pump suction strainer down on a ridge that mates up to the bottom of the strainer which has an O ring to seal it. This all sits up off the floor of the tank by about an inch or so. The used oil is pumped into a drum for disposal in your case or storage to go back into the machine. After pulling the strainer out of the tank, I can put the suction of my barrel pump into the pipe feeding the hydraulic pump. Once I have that done I'll put whatever drain pan I have under the flange of the suction pipe and unbolt it from the pump. All this to keep contamination of the surrounding area to a minimum.
Good day folks Most of the tanks I have come across look something like the attached illustration. Kind regards Uffex
I bought the machine on the market place for scrap price, had a magnet on it, missing some pins and sheet metal, had been sitting around a yard and mostly sat still for around 10 years. Came with no promises. Thought I could reassemble it and would work for my projects. I got the valve bank nearly ready to remove today and found some bad stuff sitting in the couplers for the coolers lines. Looks like a piece of something. I cannot imagine that these pieces came through without severe damage.
As I said before, it sounds like the classic case of a machine that is eating itself. You paid scrap. They got full scrap value and free removal. I don't like to bear bad news but if I found as much as you have, I would run from it unless you have nothing but time on your hands. Every single thing in that hydro system is likely F*d. Do NOT install your new cylinders. They will die quickly. I have seen equipment like this where the operators ride it down to the very last breath, then 'sell' it with a hope and prayer. Find out what is still good, sell the parts, recover, and move on. I personally have never tackled a project like this. I see them, see the silver oil, and I run, and I was a track sprinter that can still run. I will sound brash, but you followed none of my advise. I told you to remove and cut up all the filters. You took the long way around, but you are finding WAY too much **** in that system to be remotely viable.
The filters have been out and sitting in a dirty bucket for a while. I agree this machine was a bad choice, and I have made more bad choices buying the parts I have. The problem is that it is now it is torn apart on my ground. Parts will likely not sell easily. I don’t have other equipment here big enough to move it if I did give up. I have to do something with it and there is no huge rush on the time. I do not want to, believe me I wish I spent more on a better one in the first place but here I am with a torn apart pos I need to do something with.
Go back and check out my thread in resurrecting a boom lift. Fixing a POS engine, then electrics, hydro leaks, speed controllers, etc, etc, etc. Luckily I can dance with those systems, but if I couldn't, it would have been one very expensive situation! I am just trying to feed my wisdom through experience to you. You will fix a few things, then find 10 more. And after 5yrs, you will finally give up. Let me give it to you, when you find small children in the hydro system like you have, you need to pop some filters open. When you find even more, you know all that **** is in the hydro swivel, drive motors (expensive!), track brakes, all cylinders, valve block, and likely the pilot system. If you really want to attempt the dance with a flaming turd, I recommend you NOT use your special oil, and go find yourself the cheapest oil you can find on a fire sale. Go buy some hydraulic plugs/caps and block the lines for the new cylinders. If you have already shot oil in them, you are already screwed so run em. Basically, you want to get as much water and metal out as possible just so that you can run it. BUT, BE CAREFUL! A contaminated valving system can do erratic things. Spools will hang up, orings will leak, etc. I would then pull the case drain lines on the pump(s) and try to gauge how bad that is. You will need to upstroke the pumps by activating something. Tracking is good enough. There are also case drains on the drive motors. Pop that line and see what it does. But honestly, I would be combing that old oil a LOT for little bits, and save those bits as possible clues to the **** storm. I LITERALLY found a socket in a racing two stroke engine I was building in years past! He said it had a noise in the engine but otherwise ran great! FFFF! Reed pedals saved his pocket book! I realize we could replay your 'first start up after 10yrs' and weep, but its a learning experience. I see so many on youtube where guys just turn the key. Hell, one of my best friends does this.....see what happens. Reality is if there was 5gal of water in that hydro tank from a leak or something, you just douched with straight water. We just don't know, but a massive amount of water is likely in it, and likely the cause of the bad news. SHI*! When one has been sitting for a very long time, that is usually the best time, bar none, to open drains and see what you get. It will give a great snapshot inside.
Good day Ben As you look set to sort the beast I suggest we take it one step at a time, for sure you are aware from the posts that the task is not going to be a quick or easy (meaning low cost). That valve chest looks like Kawasaki if you find that one of the spool bores are badly damaged it will mean a complete section. I attach some information on what to look for at this point that maybe of help. Kind regards Uffex
Good day Folks I found a document by Vickers makes interesting bedtime reading. Kind regards Uffex
Auction?
If the cylinders were as bad as you described, sure those bits could have come from there. Again, the fact you haven't seen brass is a good thing. I would follow the path you're on. You're obviously not afraid to get after it. The biggest challenge is getting all the o-rings and seals oriented correctly and clearing all those teeny tiny orifices. As you said, you knew what you were in for. There's lots of knowledge here, as you've seen. You'll be fine
Good day I would add a tip to FwF post when you dismantle the main control valve pay attention to any damage, an "A" or "B" port which has debris lodged will in most instances reveal which component be it cylinder or motor is the source of the metal. Kind regards Uffex
Ben footnote compliments your efforts to stay clean
That’s pretty good info. Fastline- not wanting to ignore advice, just in a pickle here and trying to make the best decision. I could spend a huge amount of time and effort getting rid of this unit at a loss and end up buying another one with issues too. Im not out anything right now to keep digging in to find out for sure. I’ll have to tear it all apart to get rid of it anyway and still could do that. In my head I think the damage originated in the lift cylinders and hopefully the 2 filters caught all debris before it got in the pumps, therefore the major damage left would be confined to the valve body. I could be way off base but want to find out. I have paid for the 2 new cylinders but do not have them here yet. The stick cylinder has been rebuilt and is dry and tight, although I realize it potentially could have debris inside and damage already started. The bucket cylinder has been off the machine and stored inside since the previous owner purchased. The oil in it looks good and clear. I also have bought 5 pins that were missing from the pile, a couple hoses, 2 barrels of oil, filters, etc. If I do choose to repair or replace the valve body is it an absolute necessity to pull the pumps apart now or will oil sampling after reassembly be sufficient to know the health of them?
it looks like disaster to me! I pressure washed for hours and it seems like I just moved grease around and made it slimy.
Do NOT toss those filters you removed! Even if you threw them in a bucket of oil, you NEED to see what you can see with them, trust me! As for your thoughts on the cylinders causing this, I very much doubt that unless there is more to the story. Only a couple ways a cylinder goes that bad....contaminated oil was used in the cylinder, or the wear bands in the cylinder were worn out, allowing metal/metal contact. When running correctly, cylinder never have metal/metal contact. And all that trash would both get caught in the return filter, AND those cylinders would quickly start showing major functional issues. The pieces you showed in a pic look like retainers, washers, etc. Something very odd. There is little doubt in my mind opening your filters will provide valuable clues here. I would not do a single other thing until that is done. For all you know, they might look pristine, in which that would be great news!!! Also, I REALLY want to know what the cylinders actually looked like. Hydro shops are there to make money. I want to know how bad they really were. I would want to see the pistons for signs they compressed huge chunks at the end of stroke.
A few of other ways that cylinders get damaged: retaining nuts come loose, cylinder barrels get dented, rods get bent, stroke limiters get broken, bad chrome on rods. The other thought is that you have two cylinders so foreign materials in one also get in the other.
I was excluding total fubar cylinder situations. Sometimes I fail to comprehend how someone can totally KO a cylinder, then continue to try to use it. OP, it would be really good to see the damage in the cylinders and/or see if the hydro shop has the competence to determine the likely failure mode. You need to be in detective mode right now. In my world, we never just replace without knowing how it got broken.
Good day I guess getting into the cylinders can be looking ahead however maybe it's good to see what you maybe up against. The pistons are often tightened to the extreme and can be difficult to remove unless the rod has been held in a good way. Attached some information that maybe helpful. Keep smiling Uffex
I haven’t actually seen the cylinders, probably picking them up tomorrow. They had sent the barrels out somewhere else before I told them not to fix them. I will be getting them back disassembled. The rods are good, they were only going to polish them. I will look them over good and post pictures. All I could see from the outside was broken wipers and oil leaking. Hopefully they will help tell the story
Also, the filters are both in the tank with exposed mesh. Can I get an education on cutting into them? Not sure how to approach this without adding my own contamination from cutting.
Somewhere you have replaceable hydro filters. If you have not yet found them all, that should be your first project. Screen in-tank filters are inlet filters. You will be looking for pleated type return filters. Should be at least one big one for main system, plus one for pilot and track case drains.
I have been all over this machine and only finding the large return filter on the inlet and the strainer in the bottom of the tanks, also one in the pilot circuit. I’m gonna feel really dumb if I missed filters somewhere. I’m guessing I need to cut the support mesh off the outside of those with shears or snips so I can see down in the pleats?
There are two flange plates on top of the tank. One has the fill cap. The other is the top of the container that holds the return filters. Take out the four bolts and there is a spring underneath. Under the spring is a valve that can be removed and the filters are under that.
Sounds like John has better first hand experience with your machine. I am just giving general. Let's first not say return filters and inlet in the same sentence. Inlet refers to intake into the pumps. Some would call this the suction side. Normal to see coarse screens there to prevent your tiny dog Fido from being sucked into the pumps. Those in no way do anything to prevent the pumps from dying from contaminated oil. They are usually not replaceable type filters so don't kill them. They would be inspected, cleaned, and reused. "return" filters are there to try to catch debris coming back to the tank. Apparently these are in-tank filters, but would be replaceable. Yes indeed, if you have found your return filters, ensure you can get new ones, and find a way to cut them open. Snips on the screen will work but all methods are on the table. I have had to resort to trying to cover a filter while I use a Dotco because I needed in the door! You want to think carefully with filters if you have a contaminated system so as not to share the contamination. Usually you can drain the filter housings first, and that is great oil to catch for testing. Really sounds like you need books. You need to make sure you are not going backwards here. Think carefully and methodically. Any oil you drain should be inspected and noted.
That machine only has a pilot filter, return filter and a suction strainer. Typical Hitachi design.
Return filter that has been sitting outside. Some very small shavings, actually a lot less than expected. I see nothing that I think looks like brass.
Strainer filter, also was outside. Lots of garbage, lending to the theory of careless filling or cap left open. Same story with shavings, some metal and nothing brass looking.
Also picked up the bad lift cylinders today. I was really hoping to find an obvious broken ring or something, but no. It is clearly worn and scored but all metal pieces seem to be intact. I did not find the source of that piece I found in the cooler fitting.
Here’s cylinder pics.
I wouldn't sweat it. You're going to have nearly every piece apart and back together. It could be old contamination from a previous repair. That sump strainer looks terrible. I would not try to clean and reuse. That, I would replace. You said that the strainer was removed prior to you taking possession? If so, you're going to want to remove the supply pipe from the pump and from the tank. That's going to have to be washed thoroughly. The same with the tank and the filter well. Not to preach, but you want all that spotless to prevent future contamination.
Like to see what the oil looks like. In most cases, the return filters are designed with a 'bypass' feature with a spring. You will even find them on car oil filters. This is so if the filter totally plugs, they will still allow oil movement BUT you will have zero filtration! This seems likely in your case as there is a lot of mess in the inlet strainer. There is no way to 'create' shavings in the tank so it got there somehow. Obviously your only prayer here is do a system cleanout, fresh oil, and hope for the best BUT you will want to pull the return and pilot filters very soon after and replace again. You are likely to find even more drama as there is no way to totally clean the system without major efforts. Likely that all systems have been affected. Don't waste any money on special oil.
I may have misspoke somewhere, the filters were both in place. I removed them after draining tank oil through a fitting in the supply pipe and have wiped the tank and fitting clean. It does look like the return filter could bypass, obviously it did because some metal made it to the strainer. The strainer is pushed down tight and sealed with an o ring. I see no way it could bypass. Also, never any intention of cleaning, I already have new ones. When I started this, much less educated than now, I thought I was only removing all the oil to get the water out. I could have followed a much better process, got oil tested, cut filter open first, not bought expensive new parts, etc but here I am. I also looked into all the open holes in the valve bank today with a bore scope and see no damage or debri. I’m guessing that I’m only seeing the end of the spools and have to actually remove them to see the areas that would be damaged?
I did buy oil also but it’s still in the barrels. It’s spectrum brand from a local place.
Well.....you are sort of in the middle of a heart surgery. If you stop, the patient is certainly dead, so on with it. Due to the level of mess, it would be prudent to study the machine as it sits and pop lines to drain as much of the junk oil as possible. HOWEVER!!! Please keep safety in mind on that boom! You pop a line, you may have no boom support and things get unsafe. You may consider some hydro caps/plugs for the boom cylinders so you can do a first fire up. Cylinders could have 5gal in each of them, and that is a lot of junk out that needs to go. Do more than crack lines, you need to open them, and try to catch what you can to flush and watch for large contaminates. Make note of all of it. Water in the system will turn the oil to snot, and it will plug your filter and bypass. Ask me how I know this! If it functions, you will still probably need to crash cart the system later, but just do what you can to get the old oil out for now.
I have opened everything to drain I believe, except some pilot circuit lines I will get to. Also can’t get the plugs out of the left drive motor, probably have to weld nuts on them or something, just haven’t got there yet. Machine is in a safe resting position so no real safety concerns. The valve bank is still my next priority but if I do reassemble I will definitely need some advice on that first fire up. I did read about priming pumps but never thought about plugging cylinder lines off to isolate them and flush the rest. I took the lines loose on that stick cylinder and didn’t find anything noticeable but I’m sure there’s still a quart or 2 in it. Should I take the whole cap loose?
Also, fastline, you said you would like to see the oil. It’s all in barrels and mixed with other junk already. Just imagine a Starbucks iced coffee. Looks just like it.
That's more water than it is oil, and should amplify the effort to remove everything you can. You will never get it all, but don't set yourself up wrong. If you can't get all the fluid in certain cylinders, run a suction tube in there, or cap/plug until you figure a way. Brakes will have a mouthful, and that is not easy to get out. Hell, if it takes hitting things with compressed air to get that **** out, do it! Just remember these efforts may help you down the short road when you are still trying to pull water out of the system. It becomes quite a task to get water out of good oil. Desiccants work vacuum works, etc, but none is much fun.
Just checking back to see if you made any progress?
Had a little time today and opened up the drive motors. The oil looks wet like everywhere else but no shavings at all. Little rust in the bottom cap and springs but it was minimal and wiped right off. I think this is good news. Still have not found any shavings anywhere other than between the lift cylinders and the tank. Still crossing my fingers on the valve body but headed out of town and probably won’t get it out of there for another 2 weeks.
That is good news. I'd sure what to inspect things on the cylinders better. There are wear rings on the piston. I have caught companies skimping and not replacing them. The piston should not contact the bore. If the wear rings are worn out, that will happen as well as bad things. I would not be draining everything until you are ready to finish with a refill as you are inviting air into the system which will propagate rust. Hit it and don't quit it.
I bought rebuilt and warrantied cylinders instead of fixing mine so I cannot see inside them, just have to trust them I guess. Just received them yesterday. I do wish I could just stay on it and I am as best as my time allows but this is a slow process for me. Not sure if I’m working ot the next couple days or not yet. I’ll get a look in the valve body if not.
Sorry, I was referring to the old cylinders. Trying to find where all this metal came from is worth it IMO.
There’s no question that there is enough scoring that the shavings could have all came from the cylinders but I cannot find anything missing a piece like the one I found in the cooler line. It could be from the valve body maybe, or maybe that piece has been stuck in that fitting for 20 years from some old repair. I really would prefer to find the answer but not sure I will. It’s pouring rain here at the moment so probably not going to make any progress.
Well, the sky cleared and I tore into the valve bank still sitting in place. I pulled all 9 spools and all circuit relief valves and found NO DAMAGE! No shavings, no debris at all! Finally a stroke of luck. The relief valves were a little sticky but freed right up by hand. Don’t have to work until evening tomorrow so I will be draining the pilot lines that I haven’t touched and then I believe it is time to start reassembly. I guess I may never know where that piece came from….
What a BIG question mark that machine is! But good news is always good. Now if you could source the drama and water! I guess once she is up and going you will know soon enough!
On that note I did find that someone forced the cap open at some point, bending the locking pin, once again lending to the theory that the water all came in through the tank. Maybe it sat on there loose for a long, long time? Here’s a spool pic also, looks to me like a bit of normal wear, nothing deep enough to feel. No gouges or torn up edges.
Pulled all the pilot lines loose to drain today. I looked all over the place and can’t find anything else I haven’t drained. Also nearly got all of the plumbing to the valve bank put back together. Few more hours and it will be ready to put oil back in but it’s going to have to wait about a week and a half, will be out of town. Kinda frustrating, I’m almost excited to see it alive again now….
Got back to it for a couple hours this morning, finally. Everything is put back together to fill with oil except the lift cylinders. Hoping to install them tomorrow morning. I did have the caps back off the oil tank to put the filters in and found something interesting. There was a piece of slag on the bottom of the return filter cover that was quite possibly large enough to stop the o-ring from sealing. Maybe a contributor to the water. Also the fill/vent cap was definitely forced open and unable to lock. I was able to repair the lock but will need to order the plastic seat. It’s in there for now but is cracked. I was hoping to see if I got any water in the tank sitting out in the weather this long but it looks like I dumped a bunch of oil back in it when I pulled return lines. I wiped it out again and have no idea if any rain got leaked into the already wet oil.
The machine is full of oil, bled, running and the stick is back on it. I got the wrong hoses for the curl cylinder and still missing a few odds and ends before I can put it to work. Any thoughts on how much I should run it before I rent a filter cart or send in samples? I’m thinking I should run it a day or 2, filter it, run some more, then send in a sample. Probably should collect that sample from the return filter area? Does that sound appropriate?
Good day Ben In similar circumstances of your machine I used a pump / filter (Cart) which had the effect of cleaning new mineral fluid, this i even used to fill the tank (Lazy perhaps). I would suggest that you attached the cleaning cart as soon as you can, on the basis that contaminants are better out than in. I recall some years ago a guy rigged in an additional filter in the return line to the tank. He claimed this gave a positive result when the fluid was sampled, I am a bit hazy on the details as I was not directly involved, but it is maybe worth a thought. Kind regards Uffex
When I do this I will be pulling oil from the return filter house and pumping back into the tank fill, correct? Filter some, run it some, filter some more? Just a little foggy on exactly how this process works to filter all of the oil, not just what’s in the tank. There are dead end hoses on inlet and outlet of the cooler, could those be used for filtration while it’s running and circulating? Sorry, just not finding good details on exactly how to do this.
If you are using a filter cart, the normal way is to pull from the tank and return to the tank. The cart is secured to the machine and functions are worked one at a time until all have been through the process. It is a messy process. Caterpillar used to have a procedure for running the filter cart. Someone with access to SIS might be able to dig that up. There are companies that specialize in additional filter systems that can be added to the machine. I have one client that installs them on all his machines. Sumitomo used to install systems like that on their excavators from the factory.
Good day Ben The filter carts I have any experience of will have specific instructions, a suction line mounted into the tank and returning via the main filters seems to be a popular concept, filtering before commissioning. Your suggestion of connecting to the cooler and making a clean run while using the machine is excellent. When I have sought advice from knowledgeable, they have recommended exactly what you suggested for a period of a couple of hours. If I can locate the information, I will pass it on to you. Kind regards Uffex
Hi Ben Take a look at this may be informative GB 0:39 / 3:08 How to operate an Offline Filtration Trolley