I am performing the site work for a new retail auto parts HUB store, it's a larger distribution store that sends parts out to the satellite stores. If you have ordered a part at the local store and they tell you they can have it by 3 PM or so, this is where it comes from. Anyway, it has a Stormtech underground retention system. I have not done one of these before but it seems straight forward in design and installation. The local ADS rep will be on-hand for a pre-con meeting and to walk us through installation if needed. Who else has done one of the these systems? What are the tricks/tips? There will be a geo tech check our sub-grade, base stone and backfill. The civil/surveyor will check all elevations and inverts before we backfill.
CM, never heard of that but it looks pretty cool. Found a video on YouTube and now I'm practically an expert http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZr4BOjEZsY
We have done a couple. Nothing to it really. Make sure you dig your hole a little bigger than the staking because it grows a little in the hole when installing. It makes it a lot easier if you have a rock box also. Chris
Done a few, but most of them up here are built out of corrigated metal pipe. Did work around a plastic chamber system, they can be a pain if you dont stone them square and evenly. If they shift, they will pop out of the other one. Depending on how big the area is, I would consider a loader feeding a stone slinger to place the stone rather than using a hoe.
They are a piece of cake. You will need a cross of what you use for setting concrete structures and septic systems. The panels sanp together like quik 4's and are easy enough. good flat excavation with some overdig and you will be fine. I though the same thing before I did one, but it was way easy. Don't overthink it. How many panels? You will need a good amount of felt fabric as well. Good luck, CD
I resized a cut-out from the plans. Sorry for the small size. There are two 15" ADS lines that feed the isolation chamber. One from a parking lot inlet and another from the roof leaders. The bldg is 18,000 sf, hence the 15" roof leader line. The discharge is another 15" ADS line that runs into a precast curb inlet with a weir wall. From there the flow goes through 18" RCP to an existing curb inlet. I didn't think it would be difficult when I bid the job and it will be good experience as the storm water regs are only getting stricter, which leads to more business.:drinkup Plan on using Ol' Blue (Gradall 534D6) to place the initial backfill. I have a light material bucket for it and should work good considering the total chamber area is 110' x 32'. I will be able to get around 3 sides easily and the section closest to the building I can use a skid or wiggle Ol' Blue in there. I'll be using #57 stone a 3/4"-1.5" washed limestone aggregate for the base and backfill around the chambers. This material needs minimal compaction which should save in equipment and labor. This system comes with spacers between the rows to help lock the chambers together which should help keeping the chambers aligned during initial backfill. There is parking/pavement above the system so the backfill will be monitored by the geotech. I don't have a problem with the geotech and the surveyor verifying the system during construction, actually it will save my arse if the system fails for some reason in the future.:cool2 Thanks for all the replies. Should be installing it this month.
On a hijack, yeah I not only hijack other threads but my own as well.:tong Commercial work seems to be picking up in my area with auto parts stores and discount stores leading the way. I actually had a developer client of mine call me up last week with plans to actually put in a street for residential lots. Something I haven't heard of in years. I estimated a discount grocery store this weekend, bids due on Friday. Sent bids in for two discount stores last week.
These things are really easy to install. I have done 100s of them. On a big system like yours you need to dig the bottom and grade the stone as you go to the bottom of chamber grade on the shop drawing they give you. Then once the entire system to grade install the chamber all at once so you can move them around to line them all up and do the fabric on the isolator row. Then stone and backfill your way across the system. In the installation manual there is a table on how much backfill you need for certain machines. I generally like to do the 6" of stone on top and 2' of fill before I walk the machine on it.
Landclearer I plan on using my 953 to dig the hole since it's in a parking lot and easy excavation, so should I go a 1' or 2' outside the stakes. I don't want to over excavate too much since it has to be backfilled with stone. Turbo I like the stone slinger idea but they are as rare as spider hoes around this area. CD to answer your question there are 14 chambers in 6 rows. I had the whole system priced by the manufacturer including all fabric spec'd. They make the chambers over in MS. Thanks for the advice excavate. That's what I was planning on doing, excavate down to sub-grade, bring the stone base in, install the whole system and then backfill. The cross-section calls for 6" stone base, chambers and backfill and another 6" stone above the chambers. 18" to 2' of fill including the base and concrete paving above that.
Hi CM, I would go about 8 inches outside the stakes. You do not need much. When we do them, the stakes are the exact corners so if it grows a little you will be shy on the size of the hole and once you have the fabric and rock in the hole you really don't want to try and dig more. By the way, it is nice to talk to another track loader man. We have a 963C and use it for clearing. Chris
I typically do my own layout as the engineers dont tend to calculate everything exact enough. The isolater row is normally between two manholes so I use that as my reference and do my own layout from there. I tend to overdig the system as its a pain to go back in later to make it bigger.
Thanks for the advice. My track loader is my work horse, it's just a jack of most all trades.:thumbsup Good idea, I'll get the engineers to stake the system out and then do my own calculations after that as well. As has been stated, the last thing I want to do is get skinny on the hole after the rock is down. This system doesn't have any manholes in the system itself which I thought was odd. There are 2 - 15" ADS pipes feeding the isolator row and one 15" ADS leaving the system going into a pre-cast inlet box with a weir wall. The inlet box is also a curb inlet. From there it ties into an existing curb inlet via 200' or so of 18" RCP.
You might want to check with the ADS rep on the no manholes. The isolater row has a fabric that is supposed to catch the silt and normally there is a manhole at either end with a short piece of 24" in pipe. They even sell the endcaps for the chambers with a 24" pipe molded in just for this. This is so you can clean it out and maintain the system.The weir is normally set at the top of the chamber height.
We're going to have a pre-con meeting with the Rep prior to installation. I got a package price for the whole system when I bid the job, so I am covered for all the parts and pieces. There must be a clean-out manhole on the isolator row as you said in order to clean the system out, I thought it was strange not to see one. That will make the two 15" lines tie ins easier. The masons are coming in Monday to start laying the walls for the building and this system is right in the way of course, so I am putting off the installation until they are topped out on that side of the building which will probably take 2 weeks. I have an industrial demo to do by the middle of April so we'll pull off and go take care of that while the masons finish.
StormChamber as an alternate to the StormTech system I wanted to share www.stormchambers.com with you. Ths system is considered an alternate to the StormTech system. Feel free to reach out to obtain a quote and to learn about all of the indirect cost savings when using StormChamber. Free design assistance is alway provided.
Welcome to the Forums chamberdude. Take a moment to read the forum rules - HeavyEquipmentForums Specifically this section - This post is your freebie and feel free to discuss your product in this thread only, thanks in advance. Now to answer your question, I just put it what's spec'd. This is a very large national company with a design engineer that had the ball rolling on this project before I even knew about it.
Thanks CM for the link to the forum rules. StormChamber can value engineer any project that requires underground storage. We will obtain permission from the engineer to use StormChamber as an alternate before providing you with a quote and design. StormChamber exceeds the required H20 wheel load rating by over four times while other plastic chambers only meet this rating. Fewer parts and less labor will give you a lesser installed cost.
Thanks for the info chamberdude, I'll keep that in mind on the next one. This is a fast paced job and to approve an alternate wouldn't have fit the schedule. I have a meeting with the Engineer tomorrow and the chambers are being delivered as well. Thanks for all the advice, we laid the excavation out and added 1' to the box. I'll double check the measurements and the GC wants the surveyors to verify elevations and location before we start.
Thought I would update with some pics. Running the 15" ADS line from a curb inlet into the eastern inlet to the system All the roof leaders flow into the system as well. This is a 15" line running into the western inlet to the system. The building is 18K sf with another building approx. 6' lower on the adjacent lot. This will keep from flooding the neighbors. Had to go under the building sewer. The ol' workhorse earning her keep, once again, digging the basin out for the system. Notice the redneck rebar safety cap on the corner pin. I thought this was a neat pic, catching the stone falling from the bucket. This line was on the side of the building, it doesn't connect to the system. Rented a 308DCR for that section as access was limited. I was impressed with that little tractor, it lifted and set a 4'x4' pre-cast knock-out box.
So we have had a few good days. Lost yesterday due to waiting on the two isolator row structures that were left off the first shipment.:Banghead Fabric down Gravel going in, the love/hated T250 earning it's keep once again. Isolator row. The 12 year old 334 mini still earning it's keep as well. 4 of the 6 rows down, that was the end of work today. The biggest PITA was setting the isolator row structure. We ran the two 15" lines to the area of the chamber and had to match those inverts with the elevation of the top of gravel. I know it would have been easier to set the structures first and then run the pipe but that didn't fit the schedule. Other than that it's a pretty simple/easy system to install. The chambers go in rather quickly. We borrowed the GC's forklift to set the pallets down into the hole and placed them from there. This is something I will bid in the future as there is money to be made installing these systems. They sent the wrong end caps, the invert for the 15" pipe were at the bottom of the chamber. The problem is the isolator row is 9" below the invert for the other rows. So we are getting regular end cabs and having to "field cut" (don't you just love that term ) and install 10 end caps. The last pic shows the 9" difference in elevation from the pre-fab'd end caps and where the invert should be - the first row after the isolator row covered in fabric.
Sounds like the only problems stemmed from them not sending the right product. Looking good!
Yes Sir that's correct. Lost a day to not having the structures and now we have to field cut the end caps. I am going to be asking for a discount due to the mishaps on their part. Thanks for the compliments.:drinkup
just curious how come you rented the 308 when you had the 334? size difference?
The 334 wouldn't lift the 4'x4' pre-cast inlet/junction box that set on the side of the building. Access is tight, to say the least, around that corner of the building. I mob'd the pipe, inlet box, riser and pedestal top to the area next to the building before the footing guys got started because I couldn't have gotten it in there once they dug and poured the footings. Also the depth of the 24" pipe that runs down that side of the building was 6' deep +/-, so I killed two birds with one stone and rented the 308 to dig the pipe and set the box. Had it on rent for a week, it was $1200 with delivery. I anticipated the rental in my bid and it actually worked out in my favor as I had the rental priced for that run of pipe and finished it early. We used it to run another 80' and set another yard inlet I had planned on using the 420 for. The 308 is naturally more efficient than the backhoe so we made up a little $$ in production.
Dang, I read this whole thread since the get-go and missed the part about it being a guberment job until this post...
LOL! This part feels like it's a gubment' job.
Thanks for the pics CM. So.....is the main purpose of this for storing rainwater and letting it flow out into the public storm system pipes at a slower rate? I know nothing about this as you can tell. I just watched the video and noticed non-woven fabric on the bottom and woven on the top. Does one stop water and the other lets it pass through?
Ah yes the good old Stormtech System. Looks like u got it. A thing I like to do is put a screw in them so they dont pop apart as u are stoning them. They are not to bad after u get the hang of them. just a lot of labor to get them right. I have done both styles with structures and with out. it depends on how they are using the system. Did you have to put down plastic round the system? CM1995 isn't it fun field cutting the ends to fit the pipe. I wish they would just send the right stuff.
This storm water system looks a lot like an infiltrator septic system. It looks like you went ahead with the install, despite the masons not being topped out. Can you elaborate on the "love/hate" T250? The laser is too blury to make out but looks familiar. Which one are you using? I have always wanted a 308 size machine. Right now it's really hard to justify when the old 416 keeps on going. Nice pics...keep 'em coming.
Nice project CM,and thanks for the pics. Did you have to figure your rock quantity or was that provided in the design? I guess if you know the displacement of each it would not be too bad, but that looks like an easy place to loose if you goof that number up. Around here I can see getting it all set up nice and pretty with fabric down and chambers in place and then having a nice 50 mph breeze come through. That is how my luck goes! Sound like you will be able to pay for that pickup in no time if work continues to pick up!
Yes Sir that whole system is designed to just hold and store rain water and eventually let it out to the public storm sewer system. The only storm water that goes into this system is a parking lot inlet and the roof leaders/gutters. Of course the bldg is 18K SF so that's a lot of water coming off the roof. The non-woven on the bottom, sides and top. The woven under the manifolds and infiltrator row for scowl protection. To be honest I am not sure about your question, other than the woven fabric is a tougher material. I'll find out from the Engineer. I am thinking about putting some screws in the end caps and at the chambers. Some of the chambers are bowed/warped coming off the pallet - not enough to matter but just enough to be aggravating and skew the lines. So far the labor hasn't been that bad. I budgeted 40 labor hours to just install the system once the fabric and gravel was down. Yesterday I had 22 of the 40 labor hrs used up, so I'll go over a little. I'm not sure what you mean by putting plastic down around the system? Yeah DGODGR, it is really a big septic tank. Decided to go ahead and do the install. Those mason's are so slow it didn't affect us. Super is pushing as always and we had a nice window here before the steel guys get there to erect the building. Ah the love part is running it, the hate part is working on it when it breaks down. That laser is the Topcon HL-4C we're talking about in this thread. So far it's been a great laser for what I need it for. I have set the structures and laid the pipe on this job with it. I like the 308, perfect rental machine for my scope of work. I wouldn't own one because I use the 420 or mini when I can. This site just presented access issues where neither one of them would work. I need a 315/320 size hoe. Now that I have the truck situation taken care of I can start looking again. Oxbow I figured my own rock for this one. They have a downloadable excel spreadsheet but I couldn't get it to work, compatibility issues with Mac or something, so I just calculated it myself. It's fairly straight forward, figure the volume of the chambers, size of the hole with over dig and go from there. Yeah if I goofed that number up I'll be looking for a change order somewhere to make it up - just kidding...:cool2 It's been windy here too. We have had to constantly go back and pull the fabric back down. I hope work stays steady. I have bid a few discount stores that are expanding, I think I have one and bidding another now. Good think about the new truck is it's only 3 bills a month for the payment.
I'm not sure what you mean by putting plastic down around the system? CM1995 on the last system I did they had us put 30mil poly between the non-woven and the stone. not sure why because it was the first time we had to do it.
That is interesting, I guess they wanted the water contained instead of leaching into the ground. :beatsme This system is going to work like that too, the base and walls of the pit are some of the stiffest red clay I have worked with in a while - would make great terracotta pots. Water will not penetrate it so any water that goes into the system is not being absorbed, just contained
We toughed it out Friday until 10. Drizzling rain and 40 degree temps are miserable.:bash We got one end of the manifolds "field cut" and installed and laid out the other end, tomorrow we'll finish up the field cuts. The ADS engineer is coming at 11 tomorrow to do a field inspection and give a letter stating everything is installed according to the spec's. I plan on using a Garbro bucket attached to the forklift the GC has rented to place the anchoring stone between the chambers. Once that is done, we'll be using the T250 and 420 to place the stone backfill. In all I have figured 18 - 26 ton loads of stone to backfill the chambers 6" above the top of the chambers. Then the whole system is wrapped "burrito style" and another 12" of 8910, which is screenings, on top of that.
Never got a quote from me on the materials...
What's your price per ton for #57's delivered to Birmingham. :tong
Nice pictures CM. Too bad there were missing parts though. FYI StormChamber endwalls are built in so no need to purchase and install separately. You can feed directly in to the StormChamber endwall, it can be field cut to accommodate up to a 30" pipe. And the manhole with weir for isolator is not required. The raised wall on the downstream end of the inflow chamber works as a weir. When sediment latent water hits that wall, the load sediment drops into the SedimenTrap which is installed vertically below the chamber. I'll post some pictures too.
Ah, the old "Win the argument, lose the sale" routine. Just kidding. It's all good...