Hi, I have been working with a civil engineering company with the past few months and they concentrate mostly on footpaths, paving and deep drainage. Recently we are tendering for and winning work in bulk earthworks, mainly for commercial developments. I am a site supervisor and coming from an earthworks background I have noticed how many of the operators within the company do not have what it takes to perform in an earthworks environment i.e. fast paced, high productivity, full bucket each time etc. It is really frustrating as they don't seem to understand that to be a successful earthworks contractor you need to be efficient and smart when moving large quantities of soil in order to avoid double handling etc. The faster you can cut and place the better. My question: Has anyone experienced this gap between these two types of operator? Personally I think someone who has come from operating 3-5 tonners breaking out footpaths would be lost in a cut and fill environment. What are you thoughts and how can I get the best from my operators on site without causing too much conflict? thanks
Yair . . . Piltownmax. I am in Australia and retired from the industry but I retain a healthy interest and some times dispair at what I see. We have some major reconstruction occuring on the main highway through our state and the lack of coordination and organisation is frightening. There seems to be a preoccupation in using excavators for every thing including cutting grade while loading trucks. I would be bulking out with a decent sized dozer and have a loader working from the piles . . . get the bloody dirt shifted out of the way and then worry about the grade. There seems to be no organisation (and maybe a little graft and corruption) as I often see half a dozen trucks working off one twenty ton excavator on a four hundred meter haul. I don't understand the thinking. Sorry to go off topic that wasn't what you were asking. Rant over. Cheers.
Some people are born operators and can quickly adapt and some are not. I think your best option is to be honest with your operators, if they are half decent and want the best for your operation they will be happy to discuss the situation and how it can be addressed. Perhaps get in an experienced bulk operator to show you operators a few tips and tricks. Basically if the operators do not realise that they are not near 100% productivity they won't change.
I agree there is a huge difference between road jobs and bulk excavation work. In the UK bulk earth moving is a 12 hour, 7 days a week job.Many operators used to road works are not prepared to work the 7 days.I would only employ those used to the muck shifting business.
This is a very interesting subject and one im all too familar with. I agree with everything that has been said above. Some people have it, some people will never. Others are suited to larger bulking earthworks and others suited to smaller detailed works, Prep work, kerbing, stormwater etc etc. We deal with the whole scope and work the appropriate people in to the appropriate job. The biggest problem we have with people not giving two ****s on a job is when there are more than 2-3 foreman or supervisors on one site and no one seems accountable or 'incharge' of the job. That mixed with a lack of communication between the whole lot and you get this big mumbles mess of a site. leading to my Boss going balistic when he rocks up to find nothing has actually been acheived. Segregation people into their own little sections...for example JOHN is great on the grader and can do his own levels...so make him accountable for that job. Little Henry is great with Kerb preperation so make him accountable of that part of the job...and finally...Kenny is incharge of storm water. Because they each have their own responsibility and have to show results then they will all give 110%. The short answer to your problem however is....(where applicable) sort your workers into the jobs they are suited too and make them accountable for it. If any of that made sense.
This is a good topic for discussion. I have seen the same thing, and sometimes it can be corrected, sometimes not. I would suggest, if you have the background, set up a meeting and discuss the techniques involved. I have gone as far as using scale models to show things like proper staging of trucks to get lined up to load effeciently, proper placement of trucks at the excavator or loader, and things like proper digging angle to use while filling the bucket. I have found that showing at the same time as telling helps get the message accross. Some can learn by watching, but I have found most do not notice the details that make the difference between a good job and a so-so job. Attitude is the most important part. If they do not care, you will never teach them anything, and at that point, need to find new operators who have a better attitude. Some are simply set in their ways, and will nopt listen to anyone, while some will take pointers, as they want to be the best they can be. As Ryan says above, sort the operators into the position best suited to their skills. If you are doing production digging, put the best operator on the production machine, and use the others in supporting roles.
Part of the basic problem here in the U.S is people smart enough do the work are also smart enough to get a better job and move up and out before they really learn the trade. So the industry is left with a bunch of dumb a$$es who never learn, but are too rejectable to find work elsewhere so they're stuck with the job they have. You get a bunch of them hanging together, then one or two make supervisor or foreman, and it's just one big dysfunctional cluster _______.
i can do both , but prefer the utility work , i have been on for a contractor for the waterboard and do a fair few more hours than your muckshift man i have the "feel" when needed and the speed when its not but i know exactly where your coming from Piltownmax
Thanks for all the comments guys. What Ryan points out makes sense. We have 200 personell in our company and sometimes the placement of operators is very strange. For example, I have had an operator with the past three days on a 23 tonne doosan. He has 25 years experience in heavy civil and landfill and earthworks is in his blood. However tomorrow he has been sent to a footpath job operating a 5.5 tonne machine. I have expressed my disappointment to the powers that be and he has done likewise. However the people making these decisions (in this case the HR manager and the transport manager) have no experience operating large plant and they do not understand the importance of having an operator that can cut to grade and bulk like lightning when the rain is coming. I sometimes feel im am hitting a brick wall. It takes a lot of my time too and I have to monitor the guys all day and show them the best area to load a truck and what level to position their digger on a stockpile etc. Old school operators are a dying breed. Young guys these days worry too much about getting the floor of their digger dirty. I think you got to love moving dirt. Usually the top guys take pride in their work and the money is just a bonus.
Spot on Piltownmax. Knowing the processes of bulk work and smaller civil work are two different things. Bulk work...as much as it sounds easy....dig the dirt, fill a truck...is probably the harder one of the lot...because you can really stuff yourself up...looking ahead of the job the whole time and knowing what path/direction your going is paramount. Bulking and not over excavating is another challenge....as we all know over excavating costs alot of money. But so can getting levels and falls wrong with stormwater and having to dig it up and replace.....everything is costly if not done right the first time. Getting rid of excess dirt costs money...bringing in excess dirt costs money....kinda helps when they know what their doing at all times.
I think it is normal. I think it may because of the cultural difference, they may have thought they have worked in high efficiency or fast pace. Once my colleage went on a business trip to south Africa. When he came back, he told me he just couldn't tolerate the way they doing things, very slow, not very concerned.
Well how about the 2 operators that move the least amount of dirt clean the machines down at the end of the day. From their point of view they are paid by the hour not by the ton of material shifted.
Unlike China, South Africa isn't going bankrupt, and it's had it's social revolution already.
I feel like this is one of the finer points of site management for sure! I hadn't encountered it much until the last few years, but have since hired some guys who can trench pipe fast and clean with their eyes closed, but can't dig mass grade to save their lives! I also have had some younger guys who have watched some more proficient operators letting the smoke roll, but keeping their cut clean and tight as they go, and the younger guys try to immitate it, but they are raking up their cut and swinging a half a bucket while they have another 7' to cut. :Banghead I think there is kind of a phenomenon that takes place when people begin learning to operate where they get to the point that they can get behind the sticks without scaring anyone, and they begin feeling comfortable, but don't realize that they just completed chapter #1 in a book that has no end. There is a huge difference between being able to "run" a machine, and knowing the most profitable way to go about a task with it. Also, Often on streetscape type work, the operators get used to having a nominally narrow work area often with many grade references (curb and gutter/asphalt/manholes to remain) which teaches a much different sense of grade than being in the middle of a 50 acre cut and fill with a bunch of stakes around and trying to understand what it will look like when you build what you are supposed to.
Hold it now you are winning bids on large dirt work contracts? Obviously the estimators must have used numbers that have been produced in the past with the people on hand, or did they use some mythical numbers from a book, or magic 8 ball? The problem here is not the operators it is the people in the office! Anyone can win bids with hopes and dreams of production you see on youtube or on the last freeway job you drove by at 70mph. My suggestion is find a new job, your owners will drowned very quickly in mass excavation numbers compared to anything you have been doing...these numbers are not even relatable to each other..mass ex can lose money by not having the right size excavator in the cut or the wrong size scrapers, or the wrong number of trucks!!!!even with an experienced contractor...maybe ask the second or third lowest bidders for there operators, i guarantee they were laughing when someone with your companies background got these jobs away from them...in this economy they were bidding the job with, fuel, payroll, overhead (maybe), and some modified equipment cost that has no roi and as slow of an equipment equity loss as they could stomach, absolutely no risk or profit..and now i will step down off of my soap box. Theironoracle
China going bankrupt???
Sorry, i hope i don't get kicked off hef for that post..so now for the productive comments. 1. Decide exactly what equipment you need (probably nothing you own), find this by research, research, research, youtube, google searches, books, any like project currently happening anywhere you can find it. You absolutely can not under any circumstances have the wrong equipment on a big dirt job, way more important than an operator, if you error go bigger and go extra units (within reason). 2. Next: Videos, most of your operators will not watch slides or read a book, i am amazed at how many operators have not read there operators manuals, no kidding that one hour of reading can completely change how a person operates a machne!!!youtube videos, like hours, with your expectations and highlights, videos you have taken from other dirt jobs you have visited..anywhere you can find them...third and finally daily production meetings before shift at least until production is meeting expectations for some time, (overproduction is not a problem!) do all of this before you order a single piece of equipment to the job, idle or unproductive equipment will sink you...if you buy equipment instead of rent it get it on another project asap or get it to the auction.... Good luck, theironoracle
well said.
Good points Acivil. I know how you feel about inexperienced operators being unable to cut to grade. But ive got two guys at the moment with plenty of hours on excavators and yet they cannot cut a 4m x 6m platform to grade without someone standing over them with a laser level. Personally, and im sure you all will agree a decent operator should only need one or two checks with a laser level now and again just to give him a reminder. I have another operator on site with a 25 tonne hyundai. I gave him a single grade peg and he was able to cut a 15m x 10m pad without a laser. I checked it the next day and there was a single spot (500x500) that was probably 20mm too high. Thats the level you need to be at if you consider yourself a good operator. Its all very well loading trucks, digging footings etc. Try cutting a hectare to a 25mm tolerance. that will sort the men from the boys.
Cheers for the advice theironoracle