I've got my 1998 345BL it's old but it works. However, when I start it up in the mornings (65 degrees or so) it seems to struggle but always starts. Here is a video . It hasn't been super cold but I'm worried as winter comes it may not start up or if it sits over the winter I may have problems early next year. It has an ether container, I haven't messed with it at all, is this something I should research and figure out how to get working? My buttons on the inside are all old and beat up so I I'm not sure if it's even still connected. Just looking for some feedback before this becomes a bigger issue. Thanks!
Have you covered all the basics of the fuel system servicing.? Filters, draining water & sediment, fuel lines blown out, no leaks in lines sucking air, etc, etc.? I don't recall if you ever got an O&M Manual for it. If not you really ought to get one.
Before I started using it I replaced the filters and the water & sediment container entirely ( i can check this now that I've been using it) I wasn't familiar with these other steps like fuels lines blown out, lines sucking air etc, etc. Is this a specific type of service that I can have done? Now that my excavator is up north it's in a more rural area so there are no Cat dealers nearby. What service would I request from them to have them send up someone mobile to perform this service?
How long since you checked..? Are you putting clean fuel in the tank.? This is the reason why I asked you did you have an O&M Manual. There is a lost of information in that document. For example have you opened the drain valve to check for water/sediment in the fuel tank.?
I've only run it a handful of times since I replaced the water/sediment tank. I'm not sure how fast this fills up but I haven't since checked it. I'm not sure what you mean by clean fuel, I get diesel from the local gas station. I assume it's clean. I think I do have the manual. I'll have to search for it.
First thing to look for is the procedure to drain water and sediment from the fuel tank and whule you're at it look at the "Maintenance Interval Schedule" for the recommendation of how frequently you are supposed to do that. The answer might come as a surprise to you. Based on your geographic location I suspect that large day/night ambient temperature swings could cause condensation inside the fuel tank to be a problem unless you keep the tank 100% full all the time. That condensation will settle in the bottom of the fuel tank and will eventually fetch up in the strainer or the main fuel filter unless you prevent that by checking the tank drain outlet for the presence of water. I was more referring to the condition of the containers you use to purchase and transport the fuel from the gas station to your machine, along with whatever funnels, etc, that you use to get it into the tank not being contaminated with dirt, etc.
Oh I use this 50 gallon plastic gas tank with a pump. I assume it is very clean. It was new and I've never put anything in it but diesel gas.
Alright...below 32°F, the ether injection is needed. Above 32°F, it shouldn't be needed. Have you actually worked the machine after changing the filter(s). The air from change out remains until it has been throttled up and loaded a bit. When you swapped the water separator bowl, was the drain plug thumbwheel flush to the bowl's boss? I had quite a few of that series that would suck air, due to the drain plug swelling and not allowing full closure.
I'm not sure if this is relevant but it starts perfectly after the first start. Meaning I can turn it on and off multiple times throughout the day. This video that I posted is only when it has sat for a week or two. I'm not really sure about the water separator bowl. In all honesty, I can't even remember how I swapped it out. I will check this the next time I'm up there.
Also, I just want to confirm something. The ether is only necessary when you're operating under 32F? I never plan on running it or working at that temp so that probably isn't an issue. I just want to make sure I understand when that should be needed.
Just found this in the manual and answered my own question.
I had two of these. It's a stretch to remember everything, but, I also had to update a fuel system check valve. Can you operate the hand primer several times, and then try starting? If it starts better, the check valve is suspect. #11 on drawing. Part will have number stamped on hex head.
Appreciate it. I'll try to hand-prime it next time then start it and see what the result is.
Here is the original picture before I replaced this. It looks like it may have been neglected. I remember having a hell of a time separting the filter from the machine. You can't tell from this pic below but I think I had to destroy the metal on the filter just to remove it. Lots of sludge and stuff in there. I put the new one on but honestly haven't looked at it since I've ran the machine. I've probably got 50 hours on it if I had to guess. I really haven't ran it a ton. If I'm understanding this correctly I put a hose on the bottom of this turn it counterclockwise and a bunch of water/gas will run into a container that I just simply dispose of?
IIRC, there should be no gap between thumbwheel and boss of bowl. I've had issues where I've seen air bubble in the bowl, when boom is raised and stalled, creating maximum fuel usage. At the time, the drain plug wasn't available and I had to replace the bowl assembly.
The bowl is clear so you can see the water level if there is any. Drain it, into a container, or with a tube, or just onto the ground, or your hand. A glass jar helps you see exactly what you're draining, cleaner than draining it onto your hand. If it starts better overnight, than it does after a couple weeks with a charged battery, then that's air getting where it shouldn't. Even if it doesn't, that won't rule out air, the air might leak overnight, or it might leak more after a week. They'll always start better warm from running than cold.
I think my memory is off. Drain plug has air gap under thumbwheel when closed, as the seal is on top of stem. It's the later style that gave issues, like on my 345C.
Nige brought up the tank sump. That is your first line of defense on water contamination. Waiting 50 hours and not looking at the new separator bowl is not doing yourself any favors, and you need to sump the tank into a clean white bucket and look at what comes out. You can be bringing clean fuel from the station OK, but that tank can have a load of crap in it that will take some time to purge out. It may be perfectly clean but you need to confirm that periodically.
And where exactly do you think all that cr@p in the water separator bowl that you removed initially came from.? The fairies didn't magically put it there. Prevention/reduction of contamination in a fuel system is pretty simple but just needs a bit of application. Make sure containers used for diesel fuel are only used for that purpose and are kept clean both inside & out. The same applies to any transfer pumps/piping/funnels that are used to fill the machine tank from said containers. Keep the machine tank as full as possible to reduce internal condensation. Topping off the fuel after shutting the machine down is a good idea if it is feasible. The less space there is for air above the fuel in the tank the condensation there will be. Remember that hot fuel returns back to the tank from the engine so keeping the tank full also helps to minimize the temperature rise above ambient of the fuel inside it. Even the actions above will not completely prevent condensation which will eventually result in internal corrosion & rust flakes inside the tank. Drain the fuel tank sump on a regular basis. In the case of your infrequent usage probably every time you use the machine would be a good idea. If you have never drained the tank sump since the excavator came into your ownership IMHO that should be your #1 priority task at this point. Just like you would check the engfine oil level, make inspection of the water separator bowl part of your pre-operational checks every time you go to fire up the machine. You will soon get a good idea of how much water the fuel system is making. As HMC pointed out, make sure that the separator bowl drain valve is correctly closed otherwise air could potentially enter the fuel system at that point.
Yea, this is from prior to me owning it. The tank I bought was brand new. So I don't think I'm putting any new contamination in it - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BL78RDVH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I didn't realize this. I will start topping it off from now on. I don't see anything in the manual on draining the fuel tank sump on a regular basis. I'm not a mechanic so I'm honestly not sure what this means. Can you clarify where it's located and how I go about draining it?
For a 4SS-prefix machine the O&M Manual is Caterpillar Publication reference SEBU7029. I assume that's the manual you are using. In my online version it's shown as every 10 Service Hours or Daily, whichever comes first. Attached the text that comes up when I click the hyperlink above. Make sure that the machine is on flat ground before you do it, otherwise there is a possibility that the water may run away from the depression in the tank where the valve is located.
Yeah, that's the manual you sent me a while back. I was reading through it last night and didn't realize this step was different than the water separator draining procedure. I am a little confused here. I assume this will drain actual gas from my gas tank as well. So what is the recommended advice? Am I just draining this until the sentiment and water stops coming out and gas starts coming out? Or are you suggesting that I run my gas tank low and then drain my entire gas tank and dispose of whatever comes out of there? I'm also confused by the "Fuel System water separator - drain", why is it in here twice? The manual shows this as two separate steps but I'm pretty sure I only have one of these in my excavator. What am I missing here? Do some models come with two of these and I only have one?
Most likely not, but it was worth mentioning. However if there had been condensation in the tank for a long period as a result of the presence of water prior to you owning the excavator then there is every chance that there are now patches of corrosion/rust on the inside of the tank. As the machine works particles of rust will fall off the tank walls, settle in the bottom of the tank and, if they are not drained out periodically, get sucked up and end up along with the water in the separator bowl. That's why you need to inspect and drain the separator bowl on a regular basis. Yes you are. Stop as soon as clean fuel is coming out of the drain. However if gas comes out instead of diesel you've put the wrong fuel in it........
I think I just figured out my problem. This thing doesn't take premium unleaded 92?
Look carefully and you will see two different machine Serial Number ranges mentioned. Your first screen shot is for machines with S/N from 4SS552-Up. The second one is for machines with S/N from 4SS1-551. If you read the text you will observe that it mentions two different water separator locations. So slightly different procedures because of different locations. Use whichever group your particular Serial Number falls into.
Given the prior neglect and the fact that I've run it for 50 hours without draining the fuel tank water and sediment should I prematurely replace the primary and secondary fuel filters again?
I also didn't notice these intervals before. I worked on this excavator last year and did all the maintenance then it sat until I recently starting using it a few months ago. Do I really need to redo all of these items below even though it's just been sitting? I'm only using this thing at most 4 days a month or 24 hours a month (roughly). Based on this interval schedule I need to change the oil every month and these fuel filters regardless of this minimal usage?
Unless you find the sediment bowl completely full of water and dirt when you next check it I wouldn’t say that it’s necessary to change the filters again just yet.
The service intervals are generally based on a machine that's being used regularly. You don't have to change the oil monthly if you only put 24 hours a month on it. Maybe every 6 month's or even longer would be adequate. It relies on a bit of common sense. If you did regular oil samples could help indicate when it should be changed. I remember a thread on here concerning large haul trucks (I think) where they were using a high end oil and doing samples to try and see if they could go longer between oil changes. I think they were doing samples for the differentials and other components as well. A big operation could save a bunch of money if they could go a little longer between oil changes. Regular samples could also indicate if you should change it more often than the book recommendations too.
I'm just not a mechanic so I wanted to make sure I wasn't interpreting that wrong. My common sense did tell me none of these oils or filters needed to be changed since it was just sitting. But sometimes my common sense leads me down the wrong path.
This is one of those cases where based on your usage you have to apply a bit of common sense. Just remember three things...... Common sense is the least common of the senses. When you assume all that you succeed in doing is to make an ass out of u and me . If in doubt - ASK..!!
Separator bowl....drain only when water is present. Tank drain....park machine level the night before. Drain off water & sediment in the morning, taking note of how much crap comes out. Once your morning drain sequence no longer yields water and sediment, check drain every other tank full or so. My morons drag the fuel hose through the dirt and install dirt into the tank, and, it is not uncommon to have to use a wire through the valve to unclog it. If you really wanna see whats in there, run the tank lower on level and suspend a flashlight in there, preferably at night.
Yeah my 120 plugs up that valve all the time because I'm still getting crap out from years of abuse. You run a wire through it then take a little bit of a bath. The guy before me had a CDL but absolutely hated driving the dump truck, so he packed fives to the excavator. The yellow safety cans with the dirt installing funnels. The dump truck has 100 gallon tank that is really clean, and also has a filter on the pump. I know I'm no longer installing dirt but I'm sure finding it lol.
I think I'm having the same issue. If this is my fuel tank when I open it nothing is coming out. What type of brush are you using to break this free?
Here is the sediment. It was full before this picture. Took awhile to drain.
cut a piece of tie wire and open the valve, and poke it up there to break the dirt plug. Prepare to get a little on ya.
With the drain valve on the bottom of the tank undue the clamp and pull or cut off the hose. Find a piece of stiff wire or what ever that will poke through the open valve. Even a long drill bit might work.
What James said above. Remove the flexible hose and you will only require a short piece of wire or a welding electrode to poke up through the open valve.
I just drained this ran the engine for about 15 minutes. It's full again so I drained it measuring it this time. Is this gas or water coming out. So far I've drained 68oz and it's still full.
I would say neither. That looks like diesel to me and I can’t see any trace of water in the bottom of the bottle. In case you were not aware water is more dense than diesel and so it will sink to the bottom of whatever container you drain it into, or sink to the bottom of the clear bowl of the water separator.
All that black nasty crap is straight from your fuel tank that's in the picture of your sediment bowl. You need to drain the tank, clean it out, and treat your fuel for a while. There's going to be a lot of fuel filter changes in your future. Also, there's no gas involved here, stop saying it. Call it fuel or diesel. Gas is not a interchangeable term for diesel. And I guess you need to do a little studying on diesel and water. If you can't tell the difference between diesel and water - see, smell, touch, and taste it. You keep tasting it, you'll learn to differentiate it by the other means. The idea here is that the water will end up in the bottom of the tank, and the bottom of the fuel and water separator filter bowl. Fuel floats on the water. So you are opening either valve to get rid of the water, rather than making your filter absorb it all. Draining it off is cheaper than making the filter catch it. You want to stop all water from getting into the injection system. It will ruin things. You want to just drain off the water, not drain out fuel. I think you have two problems here, the machine loses prime over time, making it have to crank a bunch to get going. And you've got a algae/ contamination problem in the tank, which will continually clog your fuel filters. The priming issue, you could just try pumping the manual priming pump every time you go to start it, after its been sitting. Or pressurize the system to figure out where the air is getting in and fix that hose/ oring leak. Or just replace everything from tank to engine. All the lines, and o rings sealing the system. The tank contamination is going to take removing the fuel out of the tank, cleaning the tank as best you can, and then get a fuel treatment to kill any algae growth you might have. Its hard telling from the pictures what exactly is coming out of that tank, but its not good stuff.
No need to drain the fuel out of the water separator or filter, stop once you get clean fuel. I wouldn't drain the tank either, just enough every day to make sure it's clean. I didn't re read the whole thread, or your other posts, but if we don't know the history of this machine, I'd keep spare filters, but run the tank down below a 1/4 tank a few times and keep an eye on the dirt. That's not a huge amount of gunk for the size of the machine for an unknown time.
^considering he has still never sumped it, that is a sound plan ^ EDIT: I have an oil extractor. It does a good job of sumping a tank that does not have a good sump on it.
Stop ***king about with the water separator bowl and get into that drain valve below the tank would be my advice. As mentioned above, until you do the cra@p will continue to be sucked from the tank to the filters and cost you $$$$$.
Maybe I missed something, but I thought that he bought the machine, and replaced all the filters. He just uses it on weekends. He's got less than 50 hours on that change, and he's got this in the sediment bowl. I personally wouldn't be thrilled with that in my sediment bowl. And would be doing a clean on the tank, after first seeing what drained off as Nige mentions.
Jeremy, if you want to see what a water/diesel mixture looks like try pouring say a tablespoon of water into that bottle of diesel shown in your Post #39 photo. Tighten the cap and shake it well then leave it for a couple of minutes. You should find all the water settled out into the bottom of the bottle. The same process will happen in the sediment bowl of your water separator.
Ok so my apologies for saying gas instead of fuel/diesel. This is naturally just what comes to my mind when I think about my fuel tank. I ran my tank down to one bar today which means I have about 12 gallons of diesel in there currently. To make sure I have this down correctly. 1. I didn't have anythikg to break the clog to open the fuel tank and let it drain. I'll bring something back with me next time I go up. Then drain this until it comes out clean? 2. I checked my meter and I have 49 hours since I did all my filters. They were changed in November of last year. I'm assuming at this point you guys would recommend just changing the fuel filter every time I go up there until this sediment is gone from the sediment bowl? Or how will I know when is appropriate? 3. Should I be putting some type of additive or treatment in the fuel tank until I get this under control?
My suggestion would be….. take a few gerry cans out with you and drain the last of the fuel out. I don't know if the tank has a flange on the bottom but if it does pull it and stick you arm up there with some rags and do your best to wipe it out. If no flange on bottom tape a rad onto a broom handle or stick and do it from top fill cap. This way you can take the tank out of the equation. I think many here have scratched they're head on this problem before and spent a lot of time suffering. Unthread the drain valve and clean it out at the same time. You could also take a roll of fuel line out with you with some new clamps if you need to replace it.
You'll need to change your fuel filters if/when they get plugged. If there's a lot of water in the fuel tank, it will saturate the pleats of the filter, which is designed to capture water. The "sediment" and trash in the bottom of the bowl, should be cleaned out when you see it, or water in the bowl. The trash you have in the sediment bowl, is all from inside the tank. The sediment is from either rust, algae growth, or just gunk. If you clean it out of the tank, it never gets to the filter either. The bigger gunk settles to the bottom of the bowl, but the filter is catching all the smaller stuff you can't see, and the rest is in suspension as the fuel is moving. The idea behind draining the water off the tank, is so that it never gets to the filter. The tank will naturally make water just from condensation, so you need to drain it off. The cleaning of the tank is so the sediment doesn't get to the filter and continually plug it up. When the filter gets plugged, you will notice a decrease in performance, its not going to be able to run at full throttle, because it can't get fuel. Because the fuel can't get through the filter. You would be better off to just clean the tank, as keep "masking" the problem by changing filters. I prefer to keep my tanks full as empty, they make less condensation, and/ or rust if they are full. Your location says mesa, arizona, so it doesn't get real cold there. If this thing is up in altitude near flagstaff, the water in the system can actually freeze and damage things, or just plug up the lines with ice. And then it won't run. This isn't really a big deal (in that its easy to fix), its really common. Especially in a machine that sits more than works. You could be having way worse issues than a little trash and water in the tank. The idea is to just get ahead of the problem, rather than ignore it.
Correct. You don’t have to empty the tank completely, or anywhere near it. Just drain out any water/gunk that you find and make a habit of doing that every time you go up there while you are doing your walkaround checks before starting. Remember to try the suggestion from way back regarding pumping the hand priming pump before you start the engine the first time and see if that improves cold starting.
Appreciate the thorough response. I'm in Mesa but the excavator is actually up north of Payson. So it definitely gets cold and freezes up there.
Got it. As always your suggestions/help has been instrumental in me learning how to operate and maintain my machine. Appreciate all your time.
If it is draining back and the priming works, that is a really small thing to have to do to get going. Hopefully that works for you. I think of all the steps a guy has to do to get a pony motor rig going, for example.
I would not expect to have to change fuel filters with that little hours and that amount of gunk in the bowl. keep a spare, but keep it clean and safe in case you don't need it for a couple years. The manual says drain the sediment daily, and I would do that before and after every time you use it, both the tank drain and the sediment bowl. You see they are both easy to drain without tools, drain into a glass jar, or clear plastic, and you can easily see what is drained, you can even dump that into a gallon jar and reuse the fuel by siphoning off the top to avoid the water, or use it to start fires, waterproofing, etc. After several checks, you'll know what to expect, and then you can check the bowl by sight without draining, and check the tank every other time you start it, when it drains clean with zero gunk, or a small bit of gunk. I figure the pipe between the tank and the valve will hold half it's height in water without danger of getting swished out by fuel, so a teaspoon of water is not going to freak me out, that amount is sitting in that pipe, not swirling around the tank. If you get an ounce of water before starting it, then I'd drain it again after shutting it off until there's no water. I'd use a small stick to unclog that valve. If it won't reach, remove the hose.
The original video shows a ton of smoke so I don't think fuel starvation is the starting problem.
At around the 45 second mark in the video the engine suddenly starts running “smoothly” with less smoke…..sticking injector? Have seen similar behaviour in other diesels when starting in very cold weather. Often the issue only occurs on first start of the day….
It's definitely just the first start of the day. Every subsequent start it fires right up with no issues at all.
Air in the fuel. If you read back in the thread aways somebody posted a common problem where they leak back when they sit a while. EDIT: See Mccalls post #12
So I have some steps to perform to clean out the fuel tank which I'm aware of. If it doesn't improve after this the check valve seems like a pretty simple fix to try. @heymccall this is the only image of my engine I have from this angle. Is that check valve easy to reach and replace? I just want to make sure I take the tools with me I'll need.
pump the primer before cranking to check that issue. As often as you use it, you may never want to put a wrench on it and just keep priming it.
You'll need a wrench to fit the circled bolt. That is the check valve. It will look like this when it is removed. You will need #2 (6V-4589 O-Ring) in addition to the 238-0296 Check Valve.
Good luck getting it going. In this video I made it shows how I learned to prime my 320C. Skip to 3:33 to show the priming and at 8:53 I get it started. It fired right up for a few seconds then died. It took a few more long cranks before it fired up for good. Maybe I should have primed it again when it first died? Or it is copacetic to long crank it like I did?
Today I put the new valve on and emptied the bottom of the fuel tank. This came out (attached). The gallon container is from my water fuel separator as I replaced it and just drained it in there. The small bottle is from the bottom of the fuel tank. It came out black but there wasn't a lot of this. Caught most of it in the bottle. I also replaced the valve as it was only $30 and the fuel filter. So starting it up was super rough today. Although I expected it because this happened the last time I replaced the filters. I filled them will diesel prior to installing them. I also pumped the hand primer for about a minute until it felt like it had pressure building up. Not sure if there is a step in missing after replacing the filters. Here is the startup after replacing valve and filters - https://photos.app.goo.gl/4pBtZS2Sd55SkWdx9 Video of it running right after starting - https://photos.app.goo.gl/nmY45iwFcmrA4Cr2A Video inside of the fuel tank - https://photos.app.goo.gl/iNVYhuavR2wuT2n79 Looking forward to any insight. Also, how long are you supposed to use this hand primer? I felt resistance so I thought it was primed but it really struggled to start.
It can take a lot of pumps sometimes to prime. Fuel tank not gas tank. You're going to talk to somebody at some point and they're going to look at you like you're crazy putting gas in your machine. I'm not familiar enough to know if the bubbles from the return line are normal or not. If they aren't could be a big part of your problem and air is getting in somewhere. Does the machine smoke like that once it's warmed up?
Dammit, I even double checked to make sure I didn't mess this up before hitting post!
Wish I would've saw this prior to today. I didn't realize I had to loosen a nut I just started pumping it.
It is not so much fun by yourself. If you had anyone along to open a fitting, one of you can pump and the other one crack a fitting up high and see clear fuel coming out no bubbles then it is time to tighten that up and go start it.
The air has to go somewhere.
Yea... I guess I never gave it much thought. Next time I'll know how to do it. Does anyone know which but I have to crack on this thing to let the air out? Oh well next time hopefully it fires up without any issues after replacing the valve. If not back to the drawing board.
Sump it every time you go now. After you use it, the fuel sloshes around and the dirt ends up in that low spot, the sump. The dirt and water are there and settle out nicely. Sump before you start up. Everything you take out of there never gets to your filters. You will get something every time until one day it will be clear.
So this black stuff is not the end of the world as long as I keep doing this every time you think it will be fine?
Just keep draining a little everytime you shut it off or go to start it. It should clear up.
Exactly. not the end of the world. Just keep sumping it and one day it will be clear. Then do it on a schedule thereafter.
Inside of the fuel tank looks pretty good to me. As far as the cranking to get running- you probably crank a little longer than what I like to, when its not starting. Extended crank will get the starter hot (hard on starters), I like to count/crank to about only a 15 count at most. Then I stop for at least as long, as I was cranking for, or even longer. When its cold, the crank and then waiting a little bit, will let the heat from the previous cranking, start to warm up the engine. Then crank again for a little bit. You may need to invest in a good charger or battery cables, if it sits for a long time between uses. You are disconnecting the battery switch, or pulling the cables off when you aren't there? The smoking before start, just looks like a older engine start up in cold weather. If you want to make your cold start up's easier, you're going to have to have a block heater and a generator (if you don't have electricity), or tarp it up and portable heaters under it. That's for under 20's, in the teens starting. If you see colder than 0, then you're going to have also go into blended fuels and such- but I think you said you aren't planning on using it when really cold. I didn't think the start up was bad at all. Its not going to be like a car, and running on the second or third revolution. Just had to work the air out of the system, and get rolling. And did you check the antifreeze for freeze protection? Just a good practice every fall before it gets cold.
See the attachment. It's from the O&M Manual. You know it - the one you never read.........
“If you want to make your cold start up's easier, you're going to have to have a block heater and a generator (if you don't have electricity), or tarp it up and portable heaters under it. That's for under 20's, in the teens starting.” Highly recommend an immersion style block heater, way easier on the engine as well. This is the first thing we install on any machine if not already equipped. Is that a C13? Our Cat C12 has an immersion style oil pan heater as well as block heater; works really good. Maybe available from Cat?
How cold was it? How cold had it been overnight (engine and battery temp)? What kind of fuel do you have in it? What elevation? JD suggests that over 5,000 feet to run #1 only, even 3,000' with cold temps could make some tough starting. If that cranking is at all slow, then things get real tough. I couldn't tell the cranking speed from the sound very well.
5200 elevation, high of 50 low of 30. I started it around 10am. This last start isn't too relevant as I'm sure there was a ton of air in the lines because I wasn't properly priming it after I just replaced the filters and valve. I'm not sure if it was #1 or #2. There was only one option for diesel and I don't remember what it said.
To my defense it's 222 pages. I made it through all the California proposition 65 warnings and fell asleep.
O & M will have something to say about that elevation.
Full power is available up to 11,000ft ASL according to the test spec data for the engine.
I thought it might get a mention in the start procedure.
All that the O&M makes reference to is starting at ambient temperatures below freezing point.
All that thing needs is a block heater or a slight wiff of ether.
Search instead for "altitude". You will find these.........
Here is my start from yesterday. I wasn't cranking the engine sputtered like this on its own then finally kicked over. It was about 36 degrees out. Much colder than when I typically start it. https://photos.app.goo.gl/JbvH9LrE12ahGMMv8 I replaced that air valve that was recommended in prior posts. I drained the fuel tank, much less sentiment, no water. I opened the fuel/water separator. Didn't appear to be any water in the mix. I didn't prime it as I wanted to see how my last changes would impact it without prom priming. Next time I go up I'll prime and see the difference.
Here's a tip for starting older engines when it is cold, once you know you are getting fuel indicated by black smoke. Crank for maybe 15 seconds, then let whatever heat was generated soak in for a minute or more. Then repeat. Even if it is not firing at all you're generating a bit oh heat. Be patient, let it sit plenty of time between cranking. I have a 345D with C13. We start it below zero without aid ( not by choice, just no current bushes on our jobs). If you have an electric primer pump it can help to cycle that between crankings. We also use full synthetic 5w 40 to help with cranking and reduce engine damage during cold starts.
That is an electronic c-13? Our 1999 c-12 (truck application) is one of the best starting diesels we own; and we are much colder than you…it will easily start at -10c with minimal smoke and settle immediately to a nice smooth idle. I never start it normally though without block heater/oil heater (not because it won’t start but to save engine wear and tear) I am not a good enough mechanic to comment further…but something sure doesn’t seem right. Good luck and thanks for the updates.
Looks and sounds to me like a tired old electronic Clatterpilla that needs a good freshening. The 3196 in my 95E isn't quite that bad, but it wants no part of running when I start it below 20F. It will stumble and smoke and knock and basically make you think it's never going to take off for a good 5-7 seconds, then just like that the white smoke comes and it smooths right out. Just like your video.
Good info!
standing by for the primer start in similar conditions.
We are having trouble recently with the Cummins L10 in our dump truck (PT pump)….long repeated crank times resulting in rough/“sputtering start”. Used fuel tank vent hose (non vented fuel cap) to apply low air pressure to tank.…fired right up.
I wonder how long it is since that engine last had a valve and injector set.? It probably wouldn't hurt to do both. I like the suggestion from @Oxbow to use 5W-40 engine oil to help starts in cold ambient temperatures. What grade of oil is in the engine right now.?
Mobil Delvac 1300 Super Heavy Duty Synthetic Blend Diesel Engine Oil 15W-40
Some years ago we plowed large commercial lots with a Unimog; 0-40w full synthetic made a big difference for those 3am cold starts! This truck had no block heater. If I recall correctly we used Shell Rotella.
My limited research says that we are discussing a 3176 engine. I spent 6000 hours in a Challenger 75C tractor with the same engine. Cold starting was not terrible, but it only had a 12V system with 2 batteries. Below 15F, forget it without a sniff. From 15 to 30, it would start similar to Jeremy's here. Better, but not much. Even with new injectors it still burped and knocked and farted around for several seconds before getting its crap together. My 3196 engines start similar, even at 35F. I have been around a lot of this family of engines, many Challengers and more than a few C12s in trucks. The C12s do not seem to have near the problems getting smoothed out like the tractors, but they still do. I've always wondered what Cat does with the timing and fuel on a cold start to make them so choppy. 3406E, C13, C15 don't seem to light the same.
So this is the start from yesterday - https://photos.app.goo.gl/M7zu3A1x8vutd15NA To summarize I started flushing the bottom of the fuel tank. I've done it 3 times since this start. I probably remove about 4oz of pure black crud the first time. Now it seems to be pretty minimal. I've been draining the fuel/water separator (seems like there is never any water in there). No crud in there since I cleaned it out a couple of weekends ago. Changed the fuel filter. 12/9 Changed the fuel/water separator filter. 12/9 Primed this start.12/16 I'm ok with this rough start since it's an old machine (1998) of this is normal and isn't going to cause any damage. I was just more so trying to figure out if there was anything proactive I could do to stop it. But it sounds like from recommendations I have a couple options left. 1. Change the oil to a lighter oil. I've only done one oil change since I got it. I'll do another one after it sits over the winter. It currently has Mobil Delvac 1300 Super Heavy Duty Synthetic Blend Diesel Engine Oil 15W-40. Should I stick with this same oil just a different weight? 2. Buy some type of heater block to warm it up first. If what I'm doing isn't causing any damage and is just a minor annoyance I'm ok just living with this.
Good deal on the fuel tank flush. I'm not an expert but that 35 seconds of cranking the starter seems like it would be injurious eventually to the starter. My 320 typically cranks up within three seconds... It always has ever since I got it. Maybe I'm just lucky. I'll be curious to see what the pros say.
Check your messages. The details were there…..
Lighter oil is not going to change how that starts, because it is spinning plenty fast enough from what I'm hearing. A block heater will *maybe* improve it? How does it start at 60°F ambient outside temp? If considerably better, the heater might help. Like I said earlier, it sounds and looks similar to my 3196s in my tractors. What I'm seeing and hearing, however, is it seems to have one or two cylinders that are not lighting at all until the others are strong enough to overcome the dead ones. Running the overhead would be a good start IMO, and if that doesn't help things at all, a new set of injectors. I'd guess you have low compression on at least a couple of cylinders. Right after it's started when cold, what comes out the engine oil fill tube if you remove the cap? It does appear to run ok after it gets it **** together, maybe there is a sensor that is giving the ECM misinformation on a cold start?
I already suggested that, but the reply was that the procedure I sent to the OP looked “too complicated”…… That engine probably hasn’t had valves & injectors set in a decade.
Small thread hijack- I also have a B series Cst excavator. I adjusted the valves about a hundred hours ago, most were very slightly loose. Machine starts and runs well. Are the injectors something that should be proactively serviced or is it only something to address when there are problems? Thanks!