I have a grove crane with a cummins 504c. It is strong, but leaks a lo of oil and smokes a lot too. It was overheated at some point, I think, due to malfunctioning thermostat which I hence replaced. At the crane auction, I bought this Detroit 4-53N. It is supposed to be easy to rebuild. I am wondering if the cummins can bt?e easily swapped for the detroit? Anyone tried that?
No offense but.... world's worst idea. Just rebuild the cummins.
Oh, Come on Lan. Your killing us Detroit fans. Seriously I would keep the cummins in the crane also. You will freeze in the cab with the Detroit in the winter. Only time it would get warm enough to throw heat is during dragline work and then you don't need heat as your working hard.
I'm a reluctant Detroit fan. They had their day, but in my opinion they were really designed, and worked best, with a constant load. Genset, compressor, water pump, even marine propulsion, in gear and wide open. Murphy may have been the penultimate crane power, low rpm, torque way up the wazoo and sing all day practically forever if you just gave it a pat on the head coming and going like a faithful dog. Fix the Cummins or throw a 3306 CAT in there, unless I'm reading the specs wrong for a 504C.
As much as I like a Detroit I have to agree they need to be worked hard to run right. Those blowers pushing all that cool air in all the time will cool down the cylinders and cause wet stacking and make a big mess. Not familiar with a 504c Cummins but if parts are readily available and not outrageously price I would just do a good rebuild on it. Edit: Did a quick look on line and it looks like the 504c is a little brother to the 903. On one site about marine applications they had some good things to say about the engine. One big advantage of keeping the same engine is it saves doing all the little adapting things that always seem to take up time and money. It's one thing if this was some hobby machine that you could spend all winter playing with but if you want to get in back to work making you money that is a different story.
I have two forklifts with 4-53 Detroits (30,000 and 15,000). Also one forklift (30,000) with a 3-53. Very variable load, obviously. Despite that, they run great.
Perfect application for them. Full throttle when running around, they will run nearly forever. I have some 3-543s, some 4-53s and one 4-71 in some old logging equipment myself.
FWIW, A good late model 3208 Cat is a good replacement for the 504, and much cheaper than the parts to rebuild the 504. Cummins is very proud of their V8 parts. I've replaced several 504s in older fertilizer spreaders with 3208s wasn't too much refab involved. Put a Cummins 6BT in one too. These all had Allison 600 series transmissions so the flywheel stuff was pretty easy to find.
Come to think of it, I have a truck with a GREAT 6CTA8.3 in it. The truck is an army truck and it has an issue. you think that could work?
The 8.3 is a bit more than you need to replace the 504, but still a great engine. Just curious, what's the issue with the 5 ton? Allison trans?
It is a machine I use weekly at least to make money, either on job sites or to load scrap machinery into my gondola semi trailer/other yard bird use.
The trans has its torque converter locked up and it does not unlock. As a result, the truck cannot get moving as the engine dies as soon as it is put in gear. If I lift the rear of the truck, the wheels spin when put in gear.
That's an easy fix. If you look up on the drivers side of the trans, there is a solenoid valve on a 1/4" tube. Unplug the coil. That is an external convertor clutch control for running a winch with the PTO. There is a switch... somewhere. But pull the wires and you are good to go. I've seen this 4-5 times before.
We just finished repowering two grove truck cranes. tms 250's factory with 3208's. One had been upgraded to a 3208 turbo sometime in its life, but both were impossible to work on with the motor in the crane. Replaced with 8.3 cummins from military trucks. Purchased whole trucks, so I had most of the little stuff. Military were allisons, bolted them to my road rangers in the cranes. First one was probably a 3-4 week project in time, working on it off and on, waiting for parts (clutch- flywheel), figuring out I needed a different flywheel housing, Upper and lower throttle controls, etc. Second one took less than a week. Absolutely would do again. Better power down low, fuel use about the same, could change a head gasket, probably even inframe, with it in the crane. 8.3 are nice from the military trucks b/c they are air to water cooled, no room in the crane for air to air. I think a industrial 5.9 (manual inj pump) would fit better in your RT and have plenty of power. That's what my 40ton rt has and it works fine. The 8.3 is a little nicer in the truck cranes b/c your pushing 50,000 down the road, you don't need near that power to turn the pumps or drive a rt around.
Crane operator, do you have a picture of how it looks?
At one time we had a tms200a with a 3108t and one with an 8.3. We liked the one with the 3208 a heck of a lot better then the 8.3. Ive never been around a b or c Cummins that didn't have some oil leaks. Most every one has a leak around the front engine cover. The 8.3 definitely had more power but it averaged 4 gal per hour compared to the 3208s 2gph. Any way if it was my crane I'd look for a 5.9 to drop in there. It seems like a little bit of a waste to drop that big 8.3 into a crane that only needs 150hp. Heck if I came across a 4bt Cummins that's what I'd use. I haven't been around an rt60s for a while but I don't remember the engine compartment being that big. There's probably a way to make it work but that 8.3 is just way more engine then you'd need.
I did an out of frame rebuild of a detroit 453N for my Galion 150 crane. They are easy to rebuild, no electronics, old school. The ONLY downside with a Detroit.......they drip (i.e. driptroit). Upside: incredible torque, reliable as the day is long, sweetest sound of any diesel engine you will ever hear! Though, if you have a cummins, it leaks.......rebuild it. Save the 453N for a project......they're as cool as they come (and convert to a T version without much effort).
Just saw Knepptune's post......ditto on that....a cummins 4BT would be perfect.....but at least $5k if buying a drop in ready to go.
I'll try to get some pictures of my engine swap posted. That sucks that knepptunes 3208's seemed better than the 8.3. We just spent a ton of time swapping over, I'd hate to think we did it for nothing. I've never seen a 250 with a 8.3, the factory options for my late 70's versions were 3208, 555 cummins, or 6v53. I'd probably pick the 53 of all of them, but they're all v's, and thats a bad engine bay for v engines. I'm with the 4bt crowd also for your rt. Don't try to shoehorn something too big into the crane. That's the reason we went with the 8.3 cummins motors when switching from the 3208's. Its similar in size and hp to what we had, I was just after something in a inline six so we could at least pull a head without pulling the whole motor. It was almost impossible to even run the rack on the drivers side. Forget retorqueing head bolts after a head gasket fix. You'd have to pull the motor out to pull the rack. I guess time will tell on the 3208's vs 8.3, I- and the other two drivers, are really pleased with the more torque. It's really hilly in our work area, I always felt we were working the 3208's to death with 50,000lbs. I've still got plan's for a big cam in my tms300- unless someone's got a better solution. I won't let anyone else drive it down here b/c of its 6-71, I get along with it okay, and it does much better when I drive it in flatter area's of my work area, but 3rd gear is it for the 1st 1/2 mile anywhere from my shop. Forget traveling uphill and getting another gear in it. You better know what gear you need to climb the hill, and get there and stay there. I don't need 60mph, I'd just llke to hold 30-40.
I don't have much to add to this, but founding a pic showing 3208's definitely fit. I have always considered the 3208 to be a boat anchor, so i'm not endorsing that route, just thought it would be useful to know. An industrial 6bt would be a good candidate to replace the 504 which looks to be ~160hp. While a 4BT can spin that, it is half the displacement. The 6CT is gonna be producing ~250hp and matching the displacement. The CT would make it a hot rod, but other systems might not like the increased power. Edit: Also found one with 6BT http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/6473994/1973-grove-rt60s
I am a little afraid to repower with a much larger engine, I am scared that more torque could destroy the hydraulic pump or transmission. Is that a valid concern?
Crane op ours was a 3208 turbo. The best thing about it was that if it spun over it was running. A few years ago when the grain handling market was booming that crane would go sit and idle all day. I think a v engine idles smoother then an inline engine. Just my opinion. The 8.3 definitely had way more power. And an OD transmission. And dump truck rear ends. That crane will cruise at 65 comfortably. I actually just drove it to Louisville for the guy that bought it from us. BTW that crane shows 29980 hrs. Also both of those were tms 200a's biggest difference was that they had front wheel drive. Back to the subject at hand a 3208 will fit in there. We repowered a rt740 with one. Replaced a 6v53. A 3208 would be a great choice. Yes it's a big engine but it doesn't make that much horse. They're just not that easy to find. For that application they're great engines. Sit and idle and never get worked that hard. That drive train could handle a fair amount of more torque. Those have the same drive train as a front end loader and a crane drive train doesn't get near the same use as a loader. Another interesting side note. Grove used to sell kits to convert those older cranes to a 5.9. Came with every bolt and bracket you needed. You just had to get the engine. They put the brakes on that because the 5.9 is lighter then the engines it was replacing and legally they would have had to recertify every single crane they sold that kit for. The price of the kit with the recertification was 40k about 5 yrs ago.
Pumps only work up to the relief setting, as long as the pressure isn't jacked up the pump won't care what's driving it. The transmission may suffer eventually but that's all in how you drive it. Under normal use it won't know the difference either unless you're a hammer down kinda operator.
OK guys. One more possibility. I also have a Detroit 6-71 with a turbo. The great thing is that this 6-71 engine only has 900 hours on it, because it was installed on a generator in a factory and seldom used. It is a generator engine, so, I suppose, it needs a different speed governor. But, this Detroit 6-71T has 330 HP and my current Cummins V504 only has 168 HP. The 6-71 also seems slightly bigger. Is the higher HP somehow going to be deleterious? Can I subtract the turbo and reduce HP? My question is is that a viable possibility for a swap, to change the V504 for DD 6-71T?
If it's for the upper and 1200 RPM constant speed it might work great. If it's for the lower you'll need to change the governor I think. There are some 1800 rpm setups, but the ones we had in the tugs were 1200... you have to sleep right over them you know? Wouldn't worry about extra horsepower.
Hi, it is for an RT crane, it would be the sole engine powering the whole crane, driving and hoisting functions. Changing the governor is not a big problem, I would suppose. I looked at the dimensions, looks like 6-71 would be 10" or so longer, but otherwise it would fit in.
My bad, wasn't paying attention.