Well, I bought that Gradall and figured I would start a thread with pictures of my restoration attempts. As I've said before, heavy equipment maintenance is new to me, so know-it-all comments are actually appreciated. Funny story. I live 45 minutes from where the machine will be stored. I left my home in Portsmouth, NH to drive to Hudson and stopped to get gas about five minutes in. Guess what pulled into the gas station one light cycle ahead of me? MY Gradall coming down from Maine! What are the odds.... Truck driver burst out laughing when I said hello. In Hudson, my friends at Fleet Ready are giving it a home. I'm blessed to have such sharp guys available to coach me through the rebuild process. For living in New England its whole life, it has a surprising lack of rust. Upstate Maine tends to use sand instead of salt during the winter. 4500 miles on the carrier, 7300 hours on the machine. Not bad. To quote an older thread on G3WD's, HOLY ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS BATMAN. My electrical guy and I were totally flabbergasted when we pulled the front panel off. From what I can tell, G3WD's were very well thought out mechanically and hydraulically. The electronics were another matter, sadly. Easily HALF of the problems that these machines develop can be found right here: The primary issue is that the PTO shifter was engaged while the engine was running and needs to be replaced. The time spent without lubrication is very evident on the boom hoist cylinder. I plan on re-sealing and re-packing every one. Never done anything like it before, but I can't wait to learn. She's rough, and needs some work and $$, but she's mine! I'll post pics as I dig into it. Probably need to get a real camera.
Very cool! The wires... wow... and it looks like pneumatic hoses too! And an exposed laminate etched circuit board, IC's, op-amps or electro-mechanical relays too! can you get the book for it? The silver block with the black hoses going to it, is that pneumatics?
Given the look of the electrical "area", and as you said, they have had a few electrical problems in the past, is completely rewiring it feasible? Maybe build do it yourself, replacing 1 wire at a time, bypassing all those connectors. Make it look neat and tidy. A lot of work for sure, though. Local guy did that with his T800. It had a few owners in the past that had added bits here and there. When a wire failed, he ran a new one, but never removed the old one. There were wires everywhere! Took a couple of guys 2 weeks to trace all of the wires, pull the unused ones and make it look nice again. Andrew
Jim D: Yes, those are air lines. Interesting how the arranged them. We do know that the PTO cylinder isn't getting air and its probably one of those solenoids. We also know the PTO shifter its self is chewed up (doesn't engage manually). And yes, that PCB is the transmission shift module and YES, it is exposed!! There was white deposits on the circuitry. Probably explains why none of the odd gears work... I'm trying to find hard copies of the info. Gradall lets you look up parts and service manuals by serial number, but the ones for this unit aren't complete. There's almost no information on the 4x4 carrier transmission. The specs say they are both Funk 2000's, but even the drawings show two VERY different transmissions between 2x4 and 4x4. Andrew_D: Yup, we're planning on it! Weirdly, they used $1000 (yes, 1k) military spec bulk connectors in one spot, and right next to it they used butt splices that you can pull apart by hand. Definitely getting a re-wiring. My buddy Pat (in one of the photos) is superb at that stuff and making it look as good as it works. We'll try to pull old stuff out as we go!
Love those G3WDs. 5.9 Cummins for power?? A guy around here a few years ago took the upper off & drove it around as a 4x4 truck! Talk about overkill. I saw it a couple of times drivin down the road & of course didn't have a camera with me...
Yup, its got the Cummins. It was recently replaced and runs great. Started right up even after it had been sitting. The guy I bought it from said that the logging guys love the carriers and Spicer front axles. I guess they will drive them with a hydraulic motor and use them on standard trucks for emergency AWD in soft spots. If someone didn't buy the whole Gradall, he already had people interested in the driveline components.
We've had a few work days on the Gradall and I figured I'd post an update and share a few headaches. I've already received some excellent tips from some of you and I really appreciate it! I'll summarize what we've attempted and follow up with some pictures: Main Pump PTO: Removed the main pump and disassembled it.....discovered it was basically junk. Took it down to TST in Merrimack, NH and was told that the various stages were not even from the same vendors or from the same configuration (some P/N's were for a triple pump). Complete mickey-mouse job. They followed up this bad news by offering to machine on site, with 24 hr turnaround, a brand new pump for 40% less than the dealer quote. WOW! These guys are sharp. Got new PTO parts in per the parts manual and several conversations with Gradall. Today we removed the main pump disconnect and charge pump (the PTO on the Funk F20 TC is on the same shaft as the charge pump). Long story short, instead of finding the 2" long spline shaft that we got from Gradall we found this: Uh oh. We also determined that the internal structure of the charge pump shown in the parts manual is very different from the one on our bench: Sooo yeah... A few phone calls to make on Monday morning for sure. Theory #1 is that the most recent design involves the more serviceable 2" shaft tip that can be easily replaced and that our machine has an older version which involves replacement of the charge pump gear set after any PTO accident.... We have also removed the driver's cab roof and will be designing a sheet metal replacement this week. We have also made progress planning a complete electronics overhaul....and repainting...and new tires/undercarriage parts....and fluid flushes. Oh, yes, the transmission fluid looks like this: Gross. This poor Gradall is in rough shape. But we'll set her right.
A few pics of the main pump removal/disassembly: Diggin' in: She's seen better days: Custom cover plate to keep the transmission fluid where its supposed to be. Didn't leak a drop!
Taking off the bucket with no help from the Gradall: Taken by Pat in the old Trojan. Strong...but we found diesel in the engine oil today. Another project! I'm in the red shirt on the left. View attachment 106692 Took some persuading (biggest wrench we had, some pipe, and sledgehammer) but it came off safely. View attachment 106693 A few welds are worse than the very first bead I ever laid down with a MIG torch. Some grinding and welding in our future.
Welcome to the G3WD club.
Got some more work done....figured I'd post an update: Charge pump came in....cost more than any vehicle I've ever bought (except for the Gradall). Swapped bearings and fittings over: Found that seal hiding under the shift adapter and had to put the old one back in to get the machine moving again. It was veerrry light going in and leaked like crazy. First on the following week's shopping list... Got a roof fabricated! Joe is fitting it up...it came out nice. Got her moving for the first time in a few weeks...forward progress.
Thanks! I'll consider myself a probationary member until I finally move some dirt with it!
Got the seal this week. Pulled the pump, cleaned up the seat (a few burrs), pressed it in, and reinstalled the pump in under an hour. Might actually be learning something.... I know seals are nothing for you guys, but they still scare the hell out of me... Didn't leak a bit doing a few laps around the lot! Bobby welded up half the roof. I appreciate his help, I know the basics, but the basics aren't quite good enough for this work. Once I had the charge pump back in, I started attacking the superstructure hydraulics. Got the boom telescope valve out. Rebuild kit is on the shopping list this week. Slow, steady progress.
I'll be following this thread... Good luck with the rebuild, it'll be good to see you pull it off and getting that machine looking 'loved' again.
Interesting rebuild. Definitely a unique machine Not sure if you're a member but more are always welcome; http://nerockbusters.weebly.com/
Looks like your doing good. I'll be also following this thread! Keep on updating this!
Thanks guys! The threads from the true professionals in this section are fascinating...but I thought a few of us amateurs would like to see a true newbie tackle a rebuild. I'm having a blast with this. Its making me re-think my engineering degree.... Maybe not...building things is fun whether in the shop or on paper. We are hoping to get the cab ready for windows this weekend and some major electrical work finished. What a mess the electronics are.....this is THE send from the engine oil pressure sensor: Yeah....that's what we're up against with the electronics. Oh well...challenges keep life interesting! I'll post pictures from this weekend's work. If all goes well, I'll be able to order all new carrier cab glass and weather stripping and have more than 50% of the gauges working. Baby steps... What a ball!
I'll also re-post the bucket removal pictures because the original post got munched... This was taken by Pat in the old Trojan 1700 loader. When we fired her up that morning we found diesel in the engine oil. Oh well.......another project! I'm on the left in the red Manitowoc shirt. Left to right is myself, Matt, and Bobby, my trusty welder. Took some work, but we got the bucket off safely: Left to right that's Matt, Ted, Joe, and Pat without faces. I'm grateful for their help and they will have free access to the G3WD when she's back in tip-top shape.
In the middle of another big work weekend (possibly the last major one before the holidays). Figured I'd post an update: After much debate about how to fabricate the missing cab support, we settled on this idea. We cut out carboard in the size of our available sheet metal and wrapped it around the existing support: We then spray painted the outline of the support from the inside with paint that matched the interior: We then unfolded and cut out the outline: And then bent the cardboard on the brake and installed to check fit: Hey, that might actually work! Bobby will be cutting out the real one and welding it in tomorrow. Then its off to CN Wood to order glass!
A second reply due to picture limits. Also dug into the electronics. I re-terminated the alternator wiring in a bid to fix the tach. Turns out the alternator is dead and the replacement is a specially modified Motorola part number. ***? They couldn't find a way to make one of the other thousand common alternators work? Oy. This is before rewiring...note the loose ends going nowhere in particular: Matt also dug into the rotten cab floor and seat assembly while we had the cab apart. This is a half inch of loose flake rust and dirt beneath the floor mat: Matt found the cause: Have to add a heater core to the glass order....can't say I'm not surprised. Still having fun
Looks like the same guy worked on that machine as worked on a John Deere grader I had the pleasure of working on a few weeks back! I filled a couple five gallon pails with wire I removed while trying to get things to work. Used about ten feet of new wire. This was a 1970's vintage grader and it was used on road construction jobs for years. Guess you have to do what it takes to get it running out in the middle of nowhere so it can start work at day break!
Get a second opinion on the alternator, the original might be easy to fix, and if it isn't the tach usually is just tapped into one of the three AC phases. Nothing that couldn't be reverse engineered with a bucketful of wire scraps.
Delmer: I didn't think of fixing the alternator...I suppose its possible because they aren't very complicated. We did test the unit several different ways and they all told us it was junk (spun it with compressed air with a meter on the outputs, measured battery voltage before/after engine start, and put it on a charge system tester). I have kept some of the old parts that we've replaced with the intention of repairing them to use as spares. I'll try that with the alternator. This alternator has a separate terminal for the tach send which also wasn't connected.... Got the heater core out. I hate heater cores. Every single one is a messy, sloppy, rusted disaster and this one was no different. At least now we can sand-blast the whole area. We got the new cab support cut out and here is yours truly fitting it up: After getting it tacked in place, Bobby tackled the welds: Some positions were less comfortable... But he laid down a good bead regardless.
I think it looks pretty good! Needs some more grinding, but a quick fit check with the side window suggested this will do just fine. Slowly but surely....progress is being made. I'm starting to not recognize the smashed up mess that showed up a few months ago. Its beginning to look like a decent machine.
There's a special place in hell for that guy. This kind of stuff is showing up all over this machine. It is very clear that it was maintained by most of its owners until the most recent outfit got their lunch hooks tangled up in it. The G3WD electrical troubleshooting manual doesn't even begin to address the level of dysfunction this thing has. We are slowly realizing that a complete rewiring from scratch may just be the quicker option.
That is often the best route to take especially if you have a good original wiring diagram to go from and a good supply of the correct colors of wires, or make good notes for future reference.
Neat project and I enjoy reading about your progress. I am no mechanic but by the looks of the hack job wiring, going back all new is probably the best option if you have the time and money.
When you say you put the alternator " on a charge system tester", do you mean it was removed and spin tested with hookups? If not take a small screwdriver or pick and ground the tab inside the "U" or "D" shaped hole at 1:00 O clock in the picture, that bypasses the voltage regulator, the cheapest, most likely part to fail. Or just find a rebuilder, but you seem like the kind of guy who would rebuild a clothes pin for the experience of it.
Delmer, My friends got a laugh out of that...as did I. It took me a bit to work up to "the plunge" of buying a project like this, but I have to say, its addictive. This is a hell of alot of fun. The charge system test was on-board, but we did run a spin test off-board. I will definitely try what you suggested this week, that's a great idea. You're right, solid state components are often damn cheap (I fixed a 1k flatscreen TV that smoked in a friend's living room with a $6 surface-mount flyback transformer). I'll let you know how it goes!
The alternator probably won't work from just spin testing. Even a "one wire" alternator needs voltage to it to excite the field coils, the one wire just uses a centrifugal switch to connect. I generally find a local rebuilder is the best source for parts, if you don't just have them repair it. Vehicle wiring problems are a common cause of good alternators being replaced, as they don't work without voltage in. I think you might have mentioned a bad wire or too? A rebuilder should test your alternator on a bench for free, or very cheap. Advance and Autozone etc. have alternator testers, too, but they are usually worse than useless on unusual ones, as they only have info on cars.
We debated whether the alternator had permanent magnets or needed an exciter supply. To double check, we watched the voltage on the battery through an off -> start -> run cycle to see if the voltage across the terminals kicked up at all when the alternator started charging. Instead we saw 12.3 -> 0 -> 12.3 during running. Revving had no effect. Based on that and the missing tach signal (with rebuilt wiring), we are assuming it is dead. We did put a new battery in after the old one "wouldn't hold a charge". That also told us that maybe it just wasn't being charged. Given the advice to have a "double check" test done, I'll bring it down to Autozone the next time I'm working on the machine. A second opinion never hurts! EDIT: We did call Autozone initially and they don't recognize this model, although I assume an alternator tester should still work on it. Other than mounting/connector geometry its just a basic 12V alternator. I don't know if we have a rebuilder locally in NH, but I will check.
Yep, it might be dead or alive, that test you did won't eliminate bad wiring. I don't think I've ever seen an alternator with bad permanent magnets. Around here you can get them rebuilt for $50 - $150 usually.
You are as crazy as I am!!! This is an awesome rebuild!!! When we are both done ( years from now).....keep track of your expenses, I'll do the same.....and he who spends more owes the other a personalized Tonka of their vehicle (Gradall for you, Galion for me)....kind of like a model when you buy a private jet (if I was rich.....I'd have one to brag).
That should say I don't think I've ever seen an alternator WITH permanent magnets, not BAD permanent magnets.
.........
Hey OldandWorn, if you think that's bad, you should hear me talk.
Well run down to your local Harley dealer they have used them for years. Not exactly something that would work in a Gradall but the theory is there!
Well, now I said I didn't think I'd ever seen one. I avoid Harleys like the plague, since everybody I know who has one talks about how much they have to work on them! :tong Actually, now that you mention it, the flywheel alternator on the air compressor in my truck probably is too, but I've never actually seen that, either, SO THERE! I really was thinking of truck and equipment, but now that you made me think, I bet lots of other stuff does use them. Mitch
Just poking some fun Mitch. The original post just got a double read and an "oh well" I haven't messed with an alternator for quite some time. :beerchug
Haha, you're on :drinkup If there is a way to get custom Tonka's of either one, I'd get both. I want a Galion too! BTW, how is it to run something like that? You must wear out your neck swivel long before you wear out the machine swivel? Thanks for the insight on the alternators and magnets. I know alot of wind turbine/water turbine alternators have permanent magnets (that can take your hand off if you have a loose pair ), so I didn't know if vehicle alternators were the same. Makes sense that they wouldn't....the heat and vibration would take its toll on even the best permanent magnet. I'll definitely take another look at it, if if just to have a spare. I'm planning on rebuilding several of these parts (including the destroyed charge pump shaft, my welder is chomping at the bit to TIG the teeth back on). Best case scenario....workable spare. Worst case....we had fun trying!
mitch504 Watch what you say about Harleys, guys that work on them are the best mechanics in the world, must be with all that practice
Figured I was overdue for an update. The next task was filling in the lower corner and the top of the windshield frame. To get the radii right, I put cardboard behind the opposite corner and used spraypaint to transfer the profile. I cut the piece out and cut it to fit the missing space at the bottom of the window frame. When the piece fit, we cut the same shape out of 12 gauge sheet metal and welded in. Still a bit new to this, but it didn't turn out half bad: I then laid out the top frame. I laid this out directly from the new windshield to ensure a correct fit. I added a marker's width under the assumption that extra metal can be ground off, but welding new metal on is much harder. Bobby cut it out, we fit it up, and he welded it in. Some grinding, sanding, and a coat of primer later and... ..we might actually have a cab! Our surface prep process is as follows: Clean/degrease with acetone, as needed (most of the machine is grease and oil free). Sand with 80 grit paper to expose non-faded paint (its under there.....) and/or remove loose rust. Wipe down with acetone to expose a perfectly clean layer of paint or metal. Prime. Right now we're applying Rustoleum Heavy Duty Primer with brushes/rollers due to limited areas and lack of a paint booth. It is pretty thick, but it works well in the areas of heavy pitting we are encountering in all the tight spots around the cab. It shows brush marks, but we figure they can be sanded out for the final paint job. For now, it gives us a rugged finish that will last until spring when we can spray a proper finish. More to come...
We also removed the dash assembly and the "sled" with the breakers and pneumatic components below it to completely empty the cab. For being a complete mess, it all came out fairly easily: There was legitimate MUD behind it... The bottom of the compartment, where the air lines terminate, was a solid quarter inch of flake rust and mud. There was also an old wasp nest. It all fell victim to the sander and the whizzer: Meanwhile, Pat has this mess to deal with: However, he is more than up to the task. He is planning a complete rebuild, including a new dash panel. The word "anodized" has been mentioned...
After finishing the fabrication on the cab, Bobby is jumping into the battery box. It had three or four good bumps left before the battery was headed right down through the bottom: Meanwhile, I've been working on the cab re-paint. By the end of the night, even my beer smelled like acetone. Onward and upward...
Thanks for the update. I have a rule - I don't let drinking interfere with my work and work interfere with my beer drinking.
That's a great rule! I realized after the fact that I made it sound like the beers were being had while using the acetone. Rather, the acetone stayed inside my head so long that I could still smell it when the waitress at Applebees brought the pitcher of Guinness over. And yes.....I shared it with others
Update!! We decided that the time involved in testing all the dash components, confirming/tracing wiring, cleaning, and repainting to an acceptable level would consume far too much time and still give us a mediocre product. We decided to bite the bullet and completely rebuild the dash and control system. Pat selected the components, and we've ordered them over the last week or two. This includes a custom blue anodized dash panel....that should be here next week! New gauges showed up: The pneumatic control components on the "sled" in the electronics compartment are being disassembled, cleaned, and rebuilt. Pat is hard at work on the formerly grody manifold: Ted is our chemical wizard and recommended the use of Xylene as a cleaning/degreasing solvent instead of the acetone and brake clean we have been using. His rationale involved organic chemistry and polar/non-polar substances and a bit of health info (xylene is slightly less harmful than acetone, although neither is terribly bad in reasonable amounts). He suggested that normal HDPE (No. 2) spray bottles should work OK for a few weeks (do NOT use polypro!!!). We tested the xylene yesterday and HOLY COW. This stuff is the BOMB in the shop!! Seriously, if you have not tried Xylene as a general degreaser, TRY IT. Careful around rubber and plastic (similar issues with brake clean) but this stuff is FAR more effective. It beats the pants off acetone. This is the back of the formerly VERY messy torque converter and power steering pump after a brief cleaning session with the xylene: Almost nothing in this picture was yellow 20 minutes earlier.
We have also begun repainting! I have decided to break with tradition and go with a cobalt blue and white paint scheme. It is not totally finalized, but the plan is white cabs, rims, and outer boom and cobalt blue for everything else. We will be doing a full sandblast/repaint in the spring but we decided to go ahead with basic work in the dash and front cab area before reinstalling the control components. What do you think?! The back of the front access panel had some deep pitting, but came out nice. The front (reverse side) is white: This is the formerly muddy, rusty, black pneumatics sled. The cobalt blue and shined up components are going to look great! We will be re-assembling with stainless hardware. Still having a blast! Work is ongoing this weekend, so there will be more to share in a few days.
Looks great! Can I send my Gradall 534D6 up next for you to refurbish?
You are doing a fine job. What do you plan to do with this unit when you are done?
CM1995: Haha, that night we were just saying that maybe we should do this full time! Its been a real blast. I think we'll wait to get this one running before we ask for someone else's money to do theirs Dad5: The plan is threefold. Together, we all have projects we need done around our respective yards or parent's yards. Second, I want to start a small business doing odd jobs and targeting homeowners who have quick (less than 4 hour) jobs that are too expensive for an excavator but a Gradall can just drive up and set to work at. The sky is the limit, in theory, but a few days of work a month would be a nice bit of income. Thirdly, I want to build my own house.
I was looking at buying a used G3WD for doing roadside ditching jobs and other related municipal work but after seeing how much time and money you've had to put into this particular one I think I'll just stick with getting a mini-excavator of one type or another. However you guys have done some amazing work!
Thanks! Its been fun. Actually, my experience with the rebuild has confirmed my belief that a G3WD is still the best bang for the buck available for the small, cost-conscious company. A few reasons: These machines are VERY easy to work on. Everything is easily accessible and designed for ease of maintenance. The service and parts manuals are great and include some excellent diagnostic routines that are designed to pinpoint issues quickly by people who didn't spend 5 years designing the machine first. Very user friendly. I have not encountered any other machine or device in my life so well geared to be maintained properly by their end users. You just can't beat the prices! I paid essentially salvage value for the powertrain components (less than 6k), so the issues here were a given. However, you can easily get a G3WD in good working order and minimal rot/rust for under 15k. This buys a road-legal machine that can do some real work but still get most places (particularly roadside). Dig down 18', reach up and load trucks, lift a few ton, mobilize in minutes. Awesome value! Everyone I've had look at it is very impressed with the mechanical design. These machines are superb examples of rugged, simple design and quality manufacturing (electronics not included, per se). I have yet to see an example of where the original designers cut significant corners. Granted, I haven't used it for any real work yet, but the rebuild project has given me confidence that we made the right choice.
Great Patience CraneInnaovation!!!
Yeah I've seen a lot of them for sale in the U.S. and the odd one in Canada and like you said for bargain bin prices. Maybe once you get it all fixed up and running take some video of it digging if you don't mind I know they've got an odd control pattern compared to a regular excavator I'd be curious if that could be changed? I thought about getting one for quite a while and even installing a pintle hitch to pull a trailer for moving a skid-steer or mini excavator if need be.
We've got the same thought process. I am hoping to pull a dump trailer with enough capacity for a yard or two of topsoil, any stumps or debris that might accumulate on a small homeowner job, and some tools. I'd also like to put some tool boxes on the empty space on the excavator deck and maybe even a small hydraulic power pack on top of the counterweight to run normal high pressure tools. At least a hammer, maybe a mower. I think I can run the aux lines right down the side of the boom with flex track. I'll definitely upload some videos. The control pattern is definitely different (not quite ISO or Standard) and the motion is obviously unique. The range of motion is also odd with the boom right next to you verses over head. Can't wait to get some seat time and try it out.
So it's been a few months just wondering how your restoration is coming along? Hope all is going well.
As of the first Saturday in January, myself and the Gradall team have been working with the local FIRST Robotics Team (#1058, the PVC Pirates) as engineering and fabrication mentors. Our lead coach is the owner of the shop we are working at. It consumed nearly every weeknight and Saturday from then till now. The good news is that our team put together one of the best machines in its history and won the top Engineering Excellence awards at our first competition at the University of New Hampshire this weekend We have another competition in Boston in two weeks and (hopefully) the District Championship and World Championship after that....fingers crossed! This is the program: http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc Our first ball shooter test can be seen here. While it might not look like much, we clearly had the longest distance shooter at our recent competition. These large yoga balls take more to throw than you might think. All the guys working on the Gradall rebuild are in that video (the G3WD is actually just two bays down from this test) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHuoHN51brQ&feature=player_detailpage I'll try to get some other pics of the robot up, its quite the machine. Nevertheless, we've continued to make progress on the Gradall. Pat has begun a SERIOUS rebuild of the electronics after we determined that the existing system is far to heavily "modified" to be worth trying to diagnose. With a new dashboard in progress, replacing the rest of the components is just a no-brainer at this point. They're as old as I am. I'll get some pics of the new dash up shortly.....its some serious cable porn. Pat is a real pro with this stuff and I'm glad for his help. In order to give the shop owner the space back during our extended electronics rebuild, we had to move the machine out with no power or brakes.... The Trojan 1700 saved us from some serious pry-bar time... Pat is running the loader and Bobby (our welder) is steering the G3WD with no power steering.... He hated us..... Sliding into some space next to the shop... We've been away from the big yellow mess for a few weeks, but we're back in action looking forward to a productive spring.
Our FRC robotics team made it to the New England District Championship last weekend, but, sadly, we did not qualify for the World Championship. However, with our nights and weekends back, we are back into the old G3WD. Our priority this weekend was continuing metal work in the carrier cab and fixing a major power steering leak from the steering box. We originally thought the leak was from the lower adjustment poppet (which was bent) but a closer inspection suggested it was coming from higher up....a location inaccessible without removal of the steering gear. Welp...guess we're gonna learn about that now. After pulling the Gradall into the shop without power or brakes, we started with removing the bumper. I'll tell you, short of a few good wrenches and a hacksaw, a Trojan 1700 loader is the most useful shop tool you can have! This completely exposed the welded steering gear mounting box...but, of course, all of the enclosed sides were the ones that would have been easiest to get to. After removing the hoses, we tried the 1/2 inch gun on the main bolts.....then the 3/4 inch gun......then the 1" gun. That did it!
After we got the steering box down, the VERY first thing we did was index the Pittman arm. Removing the Pittman arm took a few tries, but we ended up just placing a chisel into the gap where the clamp bolt was and driving it in until it bit. With a few more blows....she slid right off. With the steering box on the bench, the source of the leak was easy to find... In this shot, "down" is on the upper right and you can clearly see where the oil was running down the box. My primary theory at this point is that the hole in the center of the picture is NOT supposed to be open to air. Even in that picture, you can see that it clearly goes back into the bare steel of the box interior. While it may be a breather, I suspect a check valve of some kind is missing from that hole. It is not threaded, but we do not believe it is supposed to be open. Disassembly of the box revealed its inner components and seals, which all appeared to be in good shape. On Monday, we will be contacting Eaton to order replacement seals and see if we are missing some kind of plug/breather check valve in that hole. Slowly, but surely, we are making progress! Still having a blast and learning alot.
Certainly an interesting project. I recently saw a G3WD for sale and somebody had switched the excavator controls to the typical Caterpillar pattern that you have on conventional machines. Something I would probably do if I decided to buy one.
I want to try out the Gradall pattern first, but yeah, I've definitely considered this. Should be as simple as swapping a few pilot lines. Update on the steering box: The hole in the center of the previously posted picture is supposed to be open. It gives you an obvious indication that the inner seal is blown by pissing fluid everywhere. Guess it works... We are going to see if we can get the seals and replace them ourselves, but many steering box companies will only sell rebuilt kits to certified rebuilders. I guess that makes sense. Either way, we'll be taking car of that this week. Moving a truck with no power or brakes is ok, but boy oh boy....its a different animal altogether when the steering is disconnected too! Imagine one of those screwed up shopping carts at Wal-Mart except it weighs 20 tons and you've got to move it down a slight hill and park it between two other trucks. We got her parked, though!
Lol good thing you have a loader to move it around with.
I think I'd plug it with a plastic "cap plug" plug or cork to keep dirt out. If it does start leaking enough to cause a problem the cap plug or cork will fall out.
That's how it is originally designed, with just a vent plug in there to keep debris out. Its not even threaded. However, the fact that it popped out and is pissing oil indicates that the main sector shaft seal is blown. The area that hole goes into is normally on the dry side of the seal. If its wet back there, its time for a rebuild!
I know I have seen many hydraulic pump that are driven by say a converter or engine gear train that have seals to keep pump oil in pump and another to keep drive unit oil in the drive and they use a plastic plug in a drilled passage between the two seals on the "dry sides" and when there is a leak the leak pushes the plug out then you see the leak!
The local truck parts distributor told us that the rebuild kit for this box is no longer manufactured and they were unable to locate one. Gradall had one in stock, but we got the LAST one. Guess that means we better get this rebuild right. I located the rebuild manual and disassembly went smoothly (always does, right?). At this point we discovered that the sector shaft bushing opposite the pittman arm was complete whupped (over 0.010" play) in the vertical direction. This seemed to indicate that there was too much pre-load in the sector shaft likely due to an over-zealous adjustment. This bushing was also where the failed seal was, so this excessive wear likely caused the seal failure. We were able to locate a replacement bushing on Mcmaster but that means the box won't be finished until next week. The overload in the gear mesh was apparent when we went to replace the end cover and found that the sector shaft wanted to bite into the lower lip of the bushing and simply would NOT be made to go straight. Based on this, we decided it would be prudent to replace the bearing that supports the other end of the sector shaft because it was probably working too hard as well. However, it looks like this needle bearing is an usual size.....so that means another wild goose chase. The low carrier mileage (4500) means that the overloaded gear mesh didn't have too much time to damage the main piston bore. In the next post, I'll talk a bit about the seal installation.
Most of the seals on this box consisted of thin, square Teflon rings with backing O-rings. The Teflon rings stretch during installation (soaking in hot water helps) and need to be compressed afterwards to fit into their bores without tearing. This requires special tools that we were unable to locate (looked like tapered plastic sleeves). However, one of our guys mentioned that at their cylinder shop they usually just used hose clamps with business cards acting as shims. We tried it....and it worked! O-rings everywhere... When this seal finally made it down the shaft, it was stretched to the point where it would completely come out of the seating groove when the "slack" was pushed to one spot. This is a picture of what it looked like after the hose clamp was tightened (which gathered the slack in the seal to right under the clamp screw, the one spot without uniform compression). With a little squeezing with some channel-locks, it sat right down. The same process worked with the bigger seals on the valve sleeve: Everything fit together fine with liberal lubrication: By the end of the day, the main piston/worm gear was rebuilt and reinstalled, including input shaft seals. Just need to get the bearing and bushing in this week and we should have this box back on the machine in nearly-new condition!
Nice work ! I've used playing cards with transmission assembly goo in a similar situation.
I've gotten a bit behind in the updates....here they are! I left off where we had finished the steering box rebuild up until the point where the bearing and bushing that support the ends of the sector shaft needed to be replaced. The bushing was available on McMaster (steel-backed teflon coated sleeve bearing) but over twice as long as needed. These sleeve bearings are split at one point, and we were afraid of that split catching on a standard lathe tool bit and destroying the bearing. Pat's dad suggested we turn it on a lathe but use a Dremel as the cutting tool. We did that at a robotics meeting, and it worked like a charm. The bearing ended up being a special order. As soon as I told the sales rep for Eastern Industrial that it was for a steering box, he told me that anytime he gets a bearing request for a steering box, its a weird size. Turns out this one was no different. Wallet was a bit thin after that one... Armed with both bearings, we got back into the rebuild: This weekend was quite interesting, as I was sharing the bay with a 70 ton Grove crane that had been hydro-locked. The needle bearing was an odd size that was thinner than most. Not much meat to the outer race, and no inner race. To minimize the press force required, we chilled the bearing in a freezer (on the coils) and heated the box casting until it was almost impossible to touch. Bearing pressed in with very minimal force. The bolts holding the sector shaft cover in required torquing to over 200 ft-lbs. Pat had to bring out the BIG torque wrench. Here is your's truly performing the final benchtop tests to set the pre-load and backlash. The final numbers for input-shaft torque were right in the range suggested in the manual, meaning we probably didn't screw it up! EDIT: While performing this procedure, I figured out that it was VERY easy to set the pre-load on the gear mesh and then torque the lock nut without realizing you had ALSO spun the pre-load adjustment screw enough to triple the pre-load. This probably explained why the original box had failed after only 4500 miles....the wear on the sleeve bearing was consistent with enormous pre-load on the gear mesh. If the original assembler forgot to check the input-shaft toque again after setting the lock nut.....it could have left the factory with a destructive amount of mesh pre-load. Moral of the story.....always double-check critical measurements!!
Looking good! What's next? Is our bet still on?
so how is the progress coming ?
Almost 6 months without an update! There must be some pretty big changes in that time...
Hey guys! Sorry about the delay... I do have some pictures of work that happened just after this that I will post. Unfortunately most of the time since hasn't involved forward progress due to two more urgent projects that came up: The first was a local theater that myself and Pat are assistant technical directors for. The building is owned by the town and some major structural renovations were required over the stage. This meant we had to remove the entire production package and re-install it after the work was done. Based on my rigging background, I ended up as the lead rigger. It was an awful lot of fun with traditional block and tackle type rigging work, but ate up most of my weekends for a couple months....especially since I was one of the few guys who was willing to throw on a harness and work 30' over the stage. The second project, just after that, involved a major overhaul of a Bridgeport machine in the shop our robotics team uses. It needed some major cleaning and re-work, including a new gib (tapered wedge that adjusts the tightness of the table). These gibs are fitted by hand...by scraping away the high spots a few ten-thousandths at a time using special bluing dyes and techniques. That was a HUGE learning curve...but we're nearly done with it. We hope to be back into this old Gradall soon!
sounds like you had your hands full for sure. Did you say you where in MA ?
Be very careful doing this. When I was 18 and just starting out as a mechanic I did that on a log truck, after I drove the chisel in I leaned over to get my pry bar. As I was standin back up the chisel shot out, bounced off the power steering reservoir and hit me square in the upper lip. The hole in my lip heeled but the missing chip of my tooth by the gum line never has :Banghead
just wondering how this project was going is it all completed and painted up ?
Its been on hold due to life....but we are resurrecting it. Had an electrical design meeting tonight and we are forging the new schematic. Been a year or so.....had our first little girl. I can't wait to get her out turning wrenches and working with daddy. Hope to get this thread off the ground again and get this old Gradall back into service.
Nice work! She'll be watching "Bob the builder" and "Handy Mandy" in no time. Then she'll be discussing torque values for grade 5 vs. 8 bolts. Looking forward to updates on the Grade All. I'm almost done with the Galion....but with a child myself, family 1st.
Nice work CraneInnovation ! I was talking about the new addition to the family .:thumbsup Hey ....... The Gradall G3WD looks good to .
She is a cutie , I'm sure she will be helping when gets older
Well well......its been a while since I've updated this thread. Been a few kids and career hops along the way. Took advantage of the long weekend and actually did some real work on this thing. If you haven't read the previous thread, I got my hands on this Gradall real cheap....and there were reasons for that. Biggest issue was the truck cab was smashed by the bucket in a previous life leaving all the electronic and pneumatic control bits to rot in the weather....along with much of the cab. Attempts to band-aid it just unearthed more problems and so we removed the cab and started a ground-up rebuild. Life and other things eventually got in the way and she's been sitting for a few years. Until today... Things kinda got lost in the weeds of deciding whether to send the cab out to be sandblasted, do it ourselves, or just get a full new complete cab from Gradall ($7500!) etc.... Finally realized even the band-aid paint job held up pretty well over the last FOUR years and decided that "best" was becoming the enemy of "just-fine". Got out the grinders and sanders and attacked everything that doesn't absolutely need to be sandblasted. Diamond plate is coming in this week for the floor. A game plan has been made for reinstalling the controls. Final colors will be blue body with white cabs and outer boom. A bit like Amquip. Maybe grey cab roofs, not sure yet. Got primer on almost everything.....what's left will be sandblasted in a week or two. For reference....the passenger side front cab metalwork and roof were fabricated by us. The originals were destroyed. Not the most impressive update in the world but it was a lot of paint prep we were just procrastinating on and decided to just tackle. I owe Bob another wire brush for his die grinder though....that cab ate it for lunch. More to come.
Wow that is a real project. I thought my hands were full refurbishing a 2004 Ditch Witch RT-40! Great Job.