I worked with a fellow that could drive logging trucks okay, and shift a 13 speed road ranger just fine. But regretted the day when I let him drive my service truck with a 5 and 2 speed rear axle, I thought he was going to ruin that rear axle, everytime he tried a shift he had that thing grinding like a coffee grinder. It was an electric shift. Didn't they say not to preselect the splitter on the old 13's? I think he was not preselecting the rear axle? If I remember I could not shift at 13 speed with out a bit of preselect?
Was he not using the clutch?
I will let this thread play for a bit.
Always shift the 2 speed in the higher gear, going up or down. Going up, take the engine almost to governer. Shift, then blip the throttle. Going down, same thing. Shift, then blip the throttle. The shift won't occur if there is a load on the axle, either from the engine power or the vehicle trying to overspeed the engine. The throttle blip frees the load on the axle so it can shift. Essentially, you have a spring wound float shift.
1low1high 2low 2high 3low 3 high 4low5low 4 high 5 high Now your going 35mph
If you shift every 2 speed the same way you will end up needing a new rear end. I have hauled some extreme loads with 2 speed axles and had good luck. They will help make a small engine pull things it shouldnt but i dont like them they they are fragile in the hands of some one that doesnt know . When farmers used strait trucks i could sell every 2 speed i could find.
Want play time find a Old Vacuum Shift 2spd then move to a Air shift 2 spd and find a junker does not always shift electric. NONE shift the same, follow the Pattern on the visor or dash, FOLLOW the Instructions.
I have a buddy with a Two story Falcon with tandem 2 speeds i think i would like to drive it.
So long as been converted to shift Both at same time, early Two Story Falcons had Three Speed Eaton setup, shift each diff separately, axle shaft, u-joint and driveline eating machines for newbies.
When I had an old 2 speed truck I only ever put in high from 4th gear. I never put into low unless the truck was stopped , I could never really find a way to do it without grinding coffee. My Road Ranger 13 is smooth as silk up and down, I don't miss that old split rear end at all.
I've never used a clutch when shifting the two speed. All the descriptions for shifting a two speed axle that I've seen specifically mentioned to not use the clutch.
Never drove a truck with a ruxel, but as far as I know, you can pre select high and low range, but not the splitter. The old man always said you could tell who pre selected when you pulled the back of the transmission. I pull the plunger up or down as I pull it out of gear in one motion. I flip the splitter, the second I take my foot off the fuel.
It is like this. Imagine it is a 9 speed or whatever and your arm is the shift motor. You are going to be shifting between 8th and 9th gear, that equates to low and high in the axle. If you want to upshift. You are cruising along and you pull the button upwards to preselect. That is like you putting pressure on the shifter from 8th toward 9th. It will not come out of gear because of the torque. You have to break torque. Usually this is done by just backing off the throttle. At some point torque will be neutralized and it will come out of 8th and slide into 9th but of course it will not go in because the speed is not matched. You continue off the throttle to let the engine speed decay and finally it matches the lower speed for 9th and drops in. Downshifts are the reverse. You preselect low range. That is your arm pushing the gear shift toward 8th with a steady pressure. Back off the throttle and it comes out of 9th and starts raking the gears on 8th. At this point you get your foot back in it and engine RPM increases eventually matching and it drops into 8th by itself. This could also be accomplished by stepping on the clutch for a second but the clutch has to be out to increase drive shaft speed to match for the lower gear ratio. They had a driver instruction book online years ago, but I can't find it now.
Go to town fellers.
Quads, either learn them or not. Many even as Mack mechanics could NOT drive one just used the main box and direct o-drive gears.
Very true. Rule #1 on the up shift don't shift the main box till your done shifting the auxiliary. Rule #2 don't think of the auxiliary as 1,2,3,4. Think of it as Deep Under, Under, Direct and Overdrive.
One I actually Drove awhile used the Aux as a Brownie, (2 Gears), shifted each for each main gear.. Did use Low side for starting out, first and second gears, then up to High side for 2 again thru 5th, Only used UD and DUD OFF road and only individually, no shift need otherwise. NEVER EVER get two shifters hung in N Gate, end up stopped and stating over, Do NOT ask how I know.
The 9 speed in my dump truck is complicated enough for me. These other ones and 2 or 3 sticks scare me.
Driving and shifting- In the early 70's a shop I worked at sweeping floors and washing parts as after school job, there was a driver named Hank. Hank was senior driver, had a 72 Pete last of the low cabs. Powered by a 1693 425 with the rack screw removed had 6 x 4 boxes. Hank wouldn't drive a air shift. Elbows of his jean jacket worn through hair sticking up on one side he looked like a rag picker. He had a oddity that I've never seen since-his eyes, he would be looking straight ahead and one eye would be looking off to the side and would fluctuate between both eyes. It was said he could look straight ahead and one mirror at the same time. He never drove himself to work his wife brought him and picked him up. He said he couldn't help but swing the corners wide even in the car. Hank started driving in 1930. I went for one short ride with him-Out of everyone I've been around Hank was with out a doubt the smoothest driver with a set of boxes. I guess that's why he was senior driver, Hank died in 1979.
RND is my favorite shift pattern. As long as Allison makes a transmission I could care less how to double clutch and split gears. All I need a truck to do in the dirt business is get from point A to point B safely and efficiently with the occasional on-site use so an auto fits the bill for us.
You need to venture out .
Maybe in the flats, but in these mountains there are two more buttons on the display, up and down. If you care about your brakes you are up pushing those buttons as often as moving a shift lever almost. The difference is it doesn't miss shifts as often or grind any gears. Myself, I just drive whatever I am given.
I worked on a bunch of Mack Quadrplex transmissions over the years and a few Triplex transmissions. Most of the time I never got to do a test drive as they were often sent to another plant somewhere in the state to be installed. Most all of these were off-highway dump trucks so in a way having all those gears was some of a waste as most never saw 25 mph! One thing I remember is going for with a guy after I had fixed a fuel line problem on the tractor he hauled stone trailers over the highway on everything from crowded city streets Interstate Highways. I got a kick out of how easy he made it look. Nothing rushed or fancy driving with two hands working the levers with arm looped through the steering wheel. All this while carrying on a relaxed conversation! If I didn't know better I would have thought to levers were not really hooked to anything and it really had an Allison automatic behind that diesel! Then again an Allison would not been that smooth!
Nah - I''ll pass. We don't have mountains like ya'll out west but we have hills with valleys and an endless supply of traffic shoved into roads that should've been upgraded years ago. I'll take an Allison 6sp behind a pre-emission MP7 any day and all day for what we do. The auto's I've owned worked well with the retarder and jake brake for our conditions.
For vocational trucks I think Allisons seem like a money saver. No clutches to wear out, shift forks to get worn or bent by rough drivers, or whatever goes wrong with a crash box. There is a reason they put hyd wet clutch based transmissions in graders and bulldozers and not manual clutches and shift rail transmissions.
Everyone has heard the cowboys that shift blapping the Jake between gears, empty on flat ground hitting every gear, but how many know know how to shift by cutting off the Jake? I discovered this by accident with an 18 speed. I was going downhill in direct with the Jake on and didn't realize I had the splitter in over (yeah I know). When I got to the bottom and cut it off, it shifted. I think the torque in the drivetrain is wound up like a spring just a little, just enough to throw some slack into the transmission to slip it out of gear. Now I use it all the time when descending a hill slower than the speed limit and I want to let it roll when almost to the the bottom. Cut the Jake, slip it out and grab the next gear. I've done it with 3406Es, C15s and one BC 350. Some didn't want to do it if the fan was on or if the rpms weren't between like 11 and 1800 or something like that. Some like the C15 that I drive now is pretty reliable. I've asked a number of drivers if they knew about it and none had.
I had that 2 spd down to a science. I liked my loop gear I called it since a normal progression through that 5 speed was not the right split , don't remember which gears though, its been a long time. Many times when I drove most trucks I'd pull it out of gear like floating shifts and clutch into the next gear like a double clutch.
"No clutches to wear out", Allisons are full of clutches, and they do wear out on occasion. Same with the Cat power shift transmissions, especially if there is a low oil pressure problem some place.
Pretty much what was gonna add. Thanks for that.
It was pretty rare to see a OTR with a Allison-too much extra weight coupled with high fuel consumption. A Greyhound with a smelly two stroke and a Allison got about 3.5 at best, terrible combination despite what some think. It's the reason for automated manual transmissions today. Lighter no converter no extra places to leak and way more gear ratios. On todays AMT's in auto mode it can be driven through towns/urban areas stop light after stop light left in jake mode will down shift using jake to under 10 mph without touching the brake until needed to bring to a stop. But getting a driver to operate it that way is another matter.
There is a place were a automatic is the only way to go . I rebuilt alot of automatics in the 80s and 90s . One thing in a 4x4 pickup it wasnt any cheaper than a stick most didnt understand how to and when the trans saver need to be used. With a stick it was easy to tell what was going on and when a lower gear was needed. My biggest deal with a automatic is trust . My Jeep had $2000.00 spent on its trans before i got it and it seems to do stuff it shouldnt once in a while . I dont want to shift gears in my car but i dont plan on having a automatic in my pickup.
If you buy a 4x4 diesel pickup 2000 ish + it has to be an auto or your severely limiting your off road capability. Brake boosting to 20 psi helps a lot to get un-stuck. As far as autos in big trucks, I don't like driving the folders ones down the road like the 750's as they don't brake enough, they will when you put them in like 2-3 and your going slow enough. The new Allisons like the 4500 with a vgt turbo are a dream to drive. Just out it in 6 and drive like it's a pickup, turn on the turbine brake and it slows down for you and downshifts. The turbine brake is quiet so leave it on everywhere. I've driven a few manuals with turbine brakes and it's much nicer than the old Jake but I find lower than 55 mph it's much easier to catch gears and slow down with a Jake if I'm trying to not use the brakes at all. Still rather have the turbine brake as it's just software and much simpler than a Jake.
Only drove one cat with a retarder, never quite got used to it before went back to owner. Seemed a good thought as to using essentially a torque converter style system to retard a load.
Personally speaking I noticed the automatics seem to be hesitant of wanting to move till you give it some good throttle. It's as if there is a brake dragging somewhere from what I have seen. Barely blip the throttle on a manual in a low gear and it moves freely.
Think it depends on the transmission. Had an '07 Mack with 4560 in it that would leave cars at the red light unloaded. That truck was a dream to drive. Throw a 315 on the tag trailer and cruise the interstate at 75 all day long.
I know Allisons are full of clutches but I can't say we ever had a problem with the modern World series except one lost an ECM once. Trucks ran their entire lifetime with nothing but an occasional oil change, Transynd oil change intervals with Prognostics are ridiculously long also, don't tell Mike. Manuals in vocation service are often in the shop having one thing or another repaired. Nothing catastrophic, just more trips in.
250,000 on amt's. Depends on the amt, the DT12 is more responsive than the Eaton.
Manual transmissions may make a comeback now that we have hands free phones,won’t have to stop complaining to shift
Most of us old guys that grew up on a farm learned to drive a 2 spd axle equipped truck when we were quite young. Anything after that was easy
56wrench. I didn't grow up on a farm and now my brain is hard wired. I'm working on softening my brain by reading on this site which helps a lot. I maybe wrong but switching over my 5.9 cummins 12 valve to an automatic from the manual and auxiliary is a challenge for me. The old auto's don't have the gearing I need and the new stuff is complex and seems expensive to get going. I'm still researching.
That Brakesaver whine was just epic though. Dad had a late 70s W900 with one. Used to love hearing that. Jakes sound nice but there's just something about the subtlety of the Brakesaver.
AMT's are nice but I absolutely HATE how jerky they are when trying to work in close quarters or pin to a trailer. First time I tried to hook to a trailer with one I'm suprised I didn't shear the kingpin off. I wonder why they don't put a torque converter with a lockup clutch in these AMTs. Unlocked in 1st/reverse for smooth operation in tight areas then lock it up for the rest of the gears.
Cost is my guess. They used to have one, CEEMAT it was called, Converter Enhanced Electronically Managed Automatic Transmission or something like that. But for OTR a converter would be a waste being used 1/100 of the time, plus it takes oil pressure and energy to keep that lockup clutch applied, plus the converter might need oil cooling, the list in my mind is getting longer all the time here.
AMT's are all fine for a road truck, but they are terrible in a dump truck, and I can't even imagine what they would be like in a mixer.
I swear every loaded Volvo looks like it wants to launch itself into orbit every time they take off from a stop. The one tire almost comes off the ground. Can't tell me that isn't hard on the driveline.
Lots of them around here. Most of the Rodeo stuff is poor driving.
Also one more thing about Allisons, they have been using SEM or Shift Energy Management for many years now. When making a shift at WOT the transmission commands the engine to power down a bit, no reason you have to keep the engine at full chooch during the fraction of a second when it is doing clutch stuff, so that just extends the life of everything even further. Sort of a cross between a powershift and the way an AMT takes over the throttle during shifts.
Like the one really good women driver we had---{A driver has nothing to do anymore, It's a push button truck. We can't even shift it, All you do is set on your *** and get lazier and fatter by the mile, it takes zero talent to drive one of these}.
That automatic is some nice when you are hauling away from one of these,
Many Allisons start in 2nd gear at a ratio around 4:1 or the first gear is around 4:1, your also needing to spin up the torque converter depending on what's installed. I've driven some loaded pretty heavy, mine is around 70k all the time and being stopped at the bottom going up a hill you have to take it in 1st the whole time. On a 2nd gear start Allison 1st is around 7:1 and should not be shifted to a gear while moving. Irc once you get going and the torque converter locks in 2nd it stays locked the rest of the time. Mine is on my oilfield pulling unit and rigged up it's the best trans to have.
I see some Allisons speced with a too tall rear end, 6th gear 2nd OD is 0.65:1 which is taller than most Roadrangers, can still go well over 60 mph with a 5.56 rear ratio although 5.34 seems to be default. If it had a shorter rear then moving around in the mud would be easier. Never spent much time with the optional extra granny models so can't speak to that.
The trouble is the all or nothing clutch engagement on start. With a loaded truck off road on a grade, in mud, ect, it is very difficult to creep. A good driver who understands the truck and the transmission can mitigate a lot of the trouble, but why? An automatic performs so much better off road. Fuel mileage and weight in a dump really don't factor much. Also, driver ability factors in. A good driver can make an AMT work well, but then a good driver can make an 8sp work great too. For that matter a good driver can make a quadraplex work good as well! Region might factor in a bit here as well. Out West in a place like CA where weights are super restrictive and with long distances for the hauls, with a generally dry climate an AMT make more sense. Also there are all those long steep grades. Here in Wisconsin we call a 500' knob a mountain . . . lol.
The off road articulated trucks are most all torque converters with lock up transmissions. I know the 40 ton Komatsu trucks are only in converter mode a short time and then go to lock up. It can be an issue when going down hills because there is an RPM limiter on the engine controls. It won't allow the tranny to shift down if it would over speed the engine. Even though most employers think of the machine as a go cart, it does take some training and common sense to be safe.
I’ve got three trucks with 2 spd rear ends, a C60 with a 350 and 4+2, F600 with a 429 and 5+2 and a F700 with 7.8L and 5+2. The two gas powered trucks shift beautifully with the two speed, up or down in any gear, splitting gears, etc. The diesel is hit or miss, I don’t know if it’s the additional rotating mass of the engine and/or driveline or what. I’ve been driving trucks with 2spd rear axles for the better part of 20yrs but haven’t mastered this 7.8L/5+2 combo yet. Luckily both the 7.8L and 429 have enough power that split shifting is rarely necessary. Anyone ever see a truck with an automatic trans and two speed rear end? I never have in person but my Ford shop manuals show it was an option. Two speed shifter is a switch on the dash. Not sure how you’d even shift it with an automatic or the point of it?
I have overhauled lots of automatic transmissions, I prefer to work on them over the manual transmissions, especially 13 spd roadrangers. A powershift from a D8 is easier than a 3 speed manual from a 74 Plymouth duster (junk transmission). The thing I don't like about automatics is they can't work with out lots of fluid (oil), a manual will work with no oil, and if prelubed, and still no oil may even last a while, got a good story about that. Automatics should have a manual by pass switch to manually operate the torque converter clutch, that would help with many sluggish and over reving to move complaints.
What your describing is a Eaton Auto Shift that is a gear box for on road. Those were/are tough to startout with a slow creeping motion. At first that was all Eaton had in the way of a ATM based on a standard Eaton gear box. Those should have never been specified when trucks were on the drawing board. The blue one below is a basic Auto Shift {Note the old style transmission case}. This link is for the Later generation AMT that Eaton builds designed especially for off road, dump trucks or what ever. The biggest problem in the truck manufacturing business is buyers thinking they know what what they need {which is usually wrong because they follow hearsay} and a truck sales person who doesn't know the product lines well enough to properly spec the truck. And a photo of the Endurant XD https://www.eatoncummins.com/us/en-us/catalog/transmissions/endurant-xd-pro.html
Heres a gear shifting girl for you guys just to lighten the mood up. My wife wont even drive my F350 auto .(Hopefully shes not logged in to hear me complain)
Several years ago I was at a stoplight when nice clean late 70’s chevy C70 tandem dump truck pulled up. Didn’t pay attention at first but at second glance realized it was an 80yr old woman driving it! Had a pretty good load on it, she took off from the stoplight just rowing the gears. Made my day. My guess is it was either a farmers or construction co owners wife and she had been doing it for decades.
A Eaton 13spd is a piece of cake-all bench work. Screw the engine work. If I had $200 for every Eaton gear box I over Hauled I would be setting on my *** in Costa Rica. The only thing that was hard about rebuilding a Eaton was if you made it hard by not investing in a few small tools which most I made. My average rebuild would run 700,000 miles plus the longest was 1 million but it had a good driver also. It only takes one idiot to ruin good work in a hurry.
There is nothing worse than a truck that isn't spec'd for the job it is supposed to do. I am not familiar with the newer generation you posted there, all I really know is old stuff. It looks pretty interesting, maybe some day I will demo one. For right now I will just be happy with my 3406C/8LL that nobody seems to be able to drive anymore
That's a piece of cake.
I remember a cabover Scott fire truck at one of the fire departments. It was a gas job with an automatic and a ruxel. Most guys couldn't figure out the manual choke let alone a 2 speed rearend.
Sometimes you just use what you got. As long as it makes you money.
Surgeons tools.
The 200k+ is a bit of an obstacle right now, and at any rate my '92 L9000 is missing the 25 computer modules that the 200k truck has
I cut my teeth on Louisville trucks. First one I drove was a 1973 gasjob 5 speed with a Ruxel I think this one was a 76 with 290 Cummins and a ten speed single axle with a trailing axle. I think it was hooked to a flat bed with a bunch of canoes, and flat bottom boats on. My sister, and brother used to invite their university friends to a canoe run, and my father would borrow one of the trucks from work to move them. I was only pretending to drive here, but in a couple of years I was shunting trailers with the 73
I think the funnest and easyest shifting truck i ever drove was a c70 427 13speed .
My-you were a spanky looking youngster, great big grin.
The only tandem C-series chevy I’ve been in was a mid 70s C70 grain truck with a 427 and a 5spd with an auxiliary 4 speed I believe. I just remember it was a mess of gears.
We have a Ford CF7000 cab over with a 545 Allison/6.6l Brazilian and a two speed rear end (Electric shift). In this truck the hi/lo shifter is a rocker switch located on the dash. As it is situated rather near the four way flasher rocker switch I am careful not to inadvertently hit it while driving! Once off pavement I switch to low range (while stopped) and leave it there for off road use. This works really well for our use as it enables the transport of our small testing equipment up steep mining roads. The larger equipment requires low bedding and then a 10-12km walk. This truck was originally a street sweeper so is geared really low: 5.86/8.17
I was truck crazy, note the freightshaker hat. I took every chance I could to go to work with my dad. I should have paid more attention to what he was doing under the trucks instead of playing in the cab. Every second Saturday he used to service a paystar, the ones with the steel fenders, and butterfly hood, that hauled a tanker for Fina, later Petro Canada. I used to go with him. We would pick up the truck at the bulk plant, and take it to the garage. I still remember the alarm bell that rang until the oil pressure came up. There was no one around on Saturday mornings, so he would let me drive it in the garage, and back it out when he was done. I learned how to drive a tractor trailer before a car.
Was the alarm bell for oil pressure or air pressure? I don't know if oil pressure buzzers were a common thing or not.
Oil, common on corn queens back then.
Yeah cake, if you don't like your fingers and have no help moving and lifting the stuff, no lift, crane nothing, that counter shaft wow. Its been at least 30 years since one of those so don't remember much of it. I can tell you a JATCO CVT is easier in some respects, and will take the cat powershifts over RR any day.
Loud bell sounds a old school Murphy System. Hold the bypass button start and until got oil pressure was a alarm clock style ring.
It was like an actual bell. As soon as you hit the key, and it would sound until the the pressure showed on the dash. And when I say steel fenders, you could walk on them. I remember my father always thought highly of the driver, as his repair list indicated he had an eye for detail, and didn't just sit in the cab. He noticed little things that could turn into big things.
It's all what your use to and tricks. Notice the wire around 1st, reverse and low gears, that is to keep them from sliding back while installing main shaft cluster. The J hook on table is for lifting main out and back in. I like working off a certain brand of transmission jack, I tilt the case to the right to help keep top counter shaft out of the way while installing main shaft cluster. I still have all my finger's.
Used lots of those tricks rebuilding Eaton Fullers in my days. Standing those trans in a Budd Wheel to set the main, wired similarly as did not have the special tools, taught that way. Get in time and set Rear Upper CS Bearing then lay trans down to finish. Fought with them until played this game over and over got good at it. Rebuilding rear sections was great money at the end of my active days in a garage.
My c70 has one if the engine get close to stalling like taking off it will come on. Sometimes when i am backing a trailer or moving around short distances i will take off almost stalling it will come on and make you look at the air presser gauge. It sounds just like the air presser busser and maybe its the same one.
Steel fenders so you can run steer chains
Something like this one, but it was a tractor.
This is a parked truck I want to buy and fix up. It's a oilfield winch truck. 1978 f-5070 with a 671 turbo n85 injectors and a bad air compressor.
Paystars, Paid for with Butt Stars Thus Paystars. Hemorrhoid building muthas!! Dump the Driptroit and add a M11 be better off.
Mad Max
That was a triple stick mack but sure
It's only a twin stick