I just heard that the rescission is over. Hmmm. I'm a small excavating/constructing co. in nor. Cal. Every customer I come across is quite willing to absolutely beat me up over my prices. I'm starting to feel bad if I make more than my wage. But the customer seems to be in such a "shopping" mentality if I don't have the absolute lowest price, I'm not getting the job. My question to you is this: is this a common thing in our country? Thanks for your input.
we live in the craigslist age. you can be replaced by any clown with a tractor.
Whoever the rocket scientist was that said the recession is over.......lives on Fantasy Island. Ed
Its the calm before the storm
Pulse on Amarica So when you it's a calm before the storm, which storm is that exactly? Is it the storm of our moronic government, heads so far up their back sides they can't tell what day it is! Is this the storm you speak of??:Banghead:
I'm afraid you are correct Sir.
i am no conspiracy theorist, nor a doom n gloomer. i do feel there will be revolt and revolution soon.
what's "soon" to you Q?
Heo , Answering for myself .....If I have another winter like the last one , 6 to 8 months.
yeah, me too.....be my guess come november
buyers market on near anything. Don't feel bad for making money ever as long as you do what you said you would. GC's are taking jobs for below what they can do them for many times and live on cash flow till they collapse. I am negotiating the masonry on a school. I know how cheap the guy was compared to 12+ others. It is scary but I need the work. Hope he doesn't go belly up before I finish. Bonded job but who needs to wait years for your money. It's bad.
What I have seen is the job market gets worse month after month. Seen in Rock products today that aggregate shipments in CA are 50% of 2009, and we all know how bad 09 was compared to 2008. Sounds like work still dropping off to me. Aggregate sales are a pretty good indicator. If almost any kind of construction is happening, there is some kind of rock, sand, gravel, concrete, or asphalt being used. The direction of the country is so uncertain right now that the people with money to invest and build things are sitting on it until some direction is found. With the current gridlock, who knows when that will be.
It is AMERICA not Amarica, Open a book!
ontrac Looks like a typographical error to me, I have sent text without proof reading. Why don't we practice being be a little kinder to our fellow American's and man kind in general. I don't think "It is AMERICA not Amarica, Open a book! " was warranted to a fellow forum member. I sure not everyone on the forum is an English major. Bill
I believe qball has a better grip on things nowadays than most others would admit. Been seeing things going down hill for a long time, most would not listen.
If it was something else other than our country's name I would go with the flow, But somethings are worth speaking up about. It is not intended to be hateful more joking, you know get off the computer and open a book now and then. Alot of lookers but no one said anything. I make typos all the time. And stop being so sensitive, jeesh.
Everything seems to just keep slowing down. I heard of three more excavating contractors going out this month. I know for sure one of them took bankruptcy because they owed me money and I received papers in the mail notifying me last Friday. Thankfully they didn't own me much. It will get worse. I would bet we won't see an upswing for a few more years if my friends in the financial world are correct with their assessment of situation. Welcome to the new normal.
pure and simple, you need people with wealth to spend some of it...if you continue to "steal" it from them in the form of taxation, they'll just quit producing, quit spending, which is what we're seeing right now..and there won't be anybody left to tax. i'm most amused by people saying..."we have to tax the huge corporations"...well, anybody here that's ever signed the front side of a paycheck, knows....that no matter WHAT size of a biz you are, that taxes are a cost of doing business, and passed on to the end user....also known as you and me when we patronize their establishment. my daddy told me loooooooooong ago..."never bregrudge somebody from making a dime....because he's going to spend some of it, and you're going to get a nickel of it.
dayexco is on the mark people that have alot want more but not just to give it away. Tax cuts for the wealthy are good because it flows down to work for the rest of us. I have many freinds of great wealth and they are slowing down and holding on. Tax credits that were being bought by fannie mae and freddie mac are not worth the 95 cents on the dollar like before now maybe .45-50. What that means is alot more out of their own pockets to develope and that stops growth.
I think the Pulse of America has Flat Lined. And the supposed brain surgeons they have working on Americas heart may just kill patient. I am led to believe Commercial real-estate is collapsing as i type this reply.
Mark your calendar, I agree with qball!! It is already under way and will be felt nationwide November 3.
holy dookie, steve agrees with ME? ALL I CAN SAY IS, "DON'T START THE REVOLUTION WITHOUT ME"
Very true Dayexco! I suggest everyone read Atlas Shrugged great book. the commercial mortgage defaults will probably be what knocks what is left of our economy to it's knees. It's coming... We're all in this together bro.:usa
More than 20% of the country's income goes to the top 1% of the population. In the 70's the top 1% got only 8 or 9% of the country's income. Those who earn over $250,000 make up only the top 2% of taxpayers. The problem is that the other 98% are so squeezed that they're not spending enough to keep the economy going. They don't have it to spend, and now they can't even borrow it. The wealthy spend what they feel like spending and keep the rest. How many Mercedes cars, Rolex watches, and McMansions does a guy need? And they're not going to invest it in any new business venture (creating jobs), unless it's going to make them money, which it won't, cause the economy sucks, and 98% of the people don't have any money to spend. Vicious, vicious circle. It's the shrinking of the middle class that's the root of the problem.
I just heard that the rescission is over. Hmmm. What? You just figured this out? Heck yeah, the last year has been great down here.......money hand-over-fist....jobs out the wazoo.......buying caviar by the case now. Jeez, just pick up a copy of the New York Times or stop by the HuffPost (if you're not too busy clinging to your Bible or cleaning your guns) and they'll set you straight about how great everything is today. Never been better. /
Not nice at all tut tut..........
I agree that the economy is flat but with two war fronts and a crooked financial system I think it is about time that the rich finally start paying their fair share. It was the rich who put together the bad mortgage scams and securities fraud. It is the rich who set up CEO pay for big companies at 300 to 400 times what the working people building products were making. It was the rich who shipped jobs overseas because they wanted more profit and no responsibility for laborers or ecological problems. I don't agree with the current administrations penchant for trying to buy the love of the electorate but I have a real hard time believing that asking the rich to help support the system that made them rich is such a burden. I've seen more rich people doing everything they can to dodge taxes as much as possible. That is what will cause a revolution.
I agree with most of what has been said here... I don't know if its getting worse, or just staying bad, but i don't see it getting much better. What I would like to ask all of you is this: Is there anyone out there who thinks the glory days of this business are over? I am young so I lack a lot of the history that a lot of members in this forum have, but as I gain perspective and clarity on the evolution of this industry I have started developing a theory about the truth of the game that is heavy construction. I have been in business for myself since 2003, In that time we have had our ups and downs, but overall we have survived and made a living. I have begun theorizing that this is as far as one will ever get in this industry as it seems that for every company that starts up another goes down. It appears to me that the only ones who have ever made a fortune (and found stability) in this business are those who's companies are three or four generations old, were present for the industrial era, the federal highway program, and lots of other booms when the industry was much less regulated, and difficult to navigate. Thoughts?
Let me guess, your a union member? I ask because it sounds like you don't understand business from the other end. I do not mean that comment as a slight against you. Rich people pay a lot more than in taxes thats the way the code is set up and has been since income taxes have been levied against Americans. The banks were forced to make loans to risky borrowers due to government regulation (control) over the banks. I would strongly encourage you to investigate the ideas you have insinuated in your post.
Deal with it This country has had it's up's & down's in the past starting at it's founding.We survived civil war,WW1,Great deppression,WW2,floods,tornados,hurricanes & fires.This economy is a little flat but nothing compared to what we have been through in the past. We were moving a crane years ago for my old employer (Boss Glen).We caught a overhead electric service line going to a home about 6:30 on a friday evening.Fire flew as it ripped the line right out of the home.I called Boss Glen & tolled him what happend and asked him what he wanted us to do about it. In a gruff voice He utterd 3 words ,Deal with It.He basically put us in charge whith those 3 words and thats what we done .We rolled up the power line,talked to the home owner & power company that evening and it all worked out.Boss glen wasent going to make a 2 hour trip just to come wipe our nose or pat us on the back He was a businessman and a good teacher.This country needs to suck it up & Deal with It.Americans love a challenge!
That's a good story, 25c. As we often say down here, 'when the going get's tough, the tough get going!' RnR.
Way to go!:usa What we need is more people to take responsibility for their actions and less people to try to blame others for the mess they are in. As you said, we have survived better times and worse times, and the industrious ones will thrive while others will fail. The cycle will repeat, with some variation, over and over again.
Fairly new to the forum, good comments. People in the ranks are starting to grumble out loud,, good, we havent controled our leaders in some time. It might be now or never. The best to all that would comment, while we still can.
I'm old enough to remember the problems in the early 50's, viet nam,the first oil embargo the win buttons, the Iran mess 20 +% interest rates and nothing was as bad as it is now. I have been retired for sometime but on my daily travels around north east IL I see so much equipment parked when 3 years ago it was working until the first snow. On different note 90% of income taxes is paid by about 20% of the work force over 50% of the population pays little or no taxes And yes change is coming.
Been out of the unions for about seventeen years now. They did me no good. Owned my own business for about seventeen years not counting the side businesses I've owned while an employee for someone else. Worked all the state and federal taxes for my business myself. Worked with enough employees to know that unless you are huge you can't make any money off other peoples labor. All the laws are stacked against you by big business. If you work a small to medium size company you know what you are up against. Went back to working by myself and making enough money to survive. It's the rich that can buy congress, the banks and it even looks like a presidency. They don't make jobs. They make poor people.
They make poor people. John C., your logic is tragically flawed. Poor people can't buy anything.........especially not from "big business." You suggest they are in the business of killing their client base which is counterproductive to becoming successful. Nobody goes into business to kill their customer. That's is, well, insane. Misguided, destructive political ideologies and policies create poor people. Ya know, sort of like the FedGov mandating that lending institutions make loans to people who clearly would not qualify under traditional credit guidelines which then results in a gigantic credit default and the collapse of an entire market and thus the impetus of our current economic crater. Stuff like that. You are right, though, in the sense that in many industries the medium-sized business is at a decided disadvantage. Not just construction either-take a look at the farming industry......it's the ADMs of the world or the very small farmer specializing in organics or niche products as the medium size and "family" farms are going away. Why? A combination of taxes and state/Federal labor and environmental laws that makes simply operating an entity so daunting and costly that unless you have significant resources (go big) or significantly reduce your liabilities (go small) you can't economically operate. Tis true.... However, it is a phase. Like everything else, this too undulates and varies as the market and limiting forces dictate it do so. Manufacturing is not gone from the U.S., nay, it will return as the costs of producing overseas AND THEN transporting to our shores makes it uneconomical. This is happening as labor forces in developing areas are demanding more and the cost of fuel stays high. I currently work in a medium-sized business that is taking direct advantage of this dynamic and we are now doing work, done 5 years ago in Korea, which has now been shifted on-shore because it's now cheaper to do so. Pure economics, pure economics......
I've heard that a lot, but never really bothered to look into it before. There are some who hold that opinion, and some who disagree with it. I'll admit I ain't too smart. I don't know how smart you are. But this came from some guy at Harvard, where they usually don't let them in the door unless they're real smart. (First and last paragraphs quoted. You can read the rest if you like. I added the bold.) Moving on... I'll have to admit, I've never read it. Read about it, so I'm not unfamiliar with the message. (For any here who aren't, Wikipedia has a fairly lengthy entry on it, which I reviewed after reading CM's suggestion.) CM, I'm not sure Atlas Shrugged translates very well into 21st century reality, and I'll tell you why... I grew up in, and still live very close to, Pittsburgh PA. It was once the steel making capital of the world. At one time, it was home to some of the richest men in the world, Carnegie, *****, etc. Men not unlike the wealty characters in the book. They became wealthy by harnessing the productive capacity of thousands of lesser men, and helped to build the country as we know it today. While they became fabulously rich, the tens of thousands of men that worked for them at least made a living. There were labor struggles, sometimes bloody, but (without getting into the union thing too much), as a result, everybody that wanted to work enjoyed some share of the prosperity. On the whole, I really can't begrudge those early business tycoons their fortunes, because of the prosperity their efforts brought to everybody. I think Ayn Rand would agree. Fast forward to recent times. More and more, those who have become fabulously wealthy have become so, not by harnessing anybody's productive capacity, but merely by manipulating the flow of dollars and cents, and keeping a share for themselves. Others are becoming wealthy, or more wealthy, by developing and/or employing technolgies that reduce the number of workers required to produce any given unit of product. They still accrue the wealth, but fewer and fewer of the rest of the population get to share in the prosperity, because they no longer have any role to play in it's creation. That's where 21st century reality differs from Rand's ideas. I can't agree 100% with that, but here's the truth I see in it--The very wealthy are becoming less and less like Rand's characters, and more and more, only doing things that help only themselves to accrue wealth. Everyone else, even those who want to work, is being left behind, thus becoming, to an ever increasing degree, the "poor people" you speak of.
This has been a very interesting thread to date. All have valid points. Locally I hear many of the same concern. And a common thread that they all attach is that they are going to vote the bums out. And rightly they should. Most say they will vote against Dem or Rep. as long as they are the incumbant. The bums caused most of the above problems or at least it was their responsibility to do something about it or prevent it from happening. In any case vote you concious in Nov. David d.
Well said Davidd.... and it has been an interesting post to read, glad it has been kept on point with out getting personal.
No offense but that is the problem when someone only reads the "Cliff Notes". The true meaning that the author is trying to get across can get dilluted by someone else's rendition. Well I obviously think the message is the same today as when the book was written. Ann Rand's message was one of objectivism, which in short means you are responsible for yourself and should be allowed, without undue tyranny from the government to "be all you can be". I think this message is timeless as it pertains to human beings. The book itself is a great story of rich industry moguls and their struggles with a society that is steadily approaching a communist state. Some characters in the book, Hank Rearden the steel tycoon in particular, is constantly demonized by society as well as his own family for being successful. As the story goes, more and more is demanded from "rich" in order to pay for the "common good". However, the real message is not the "tycoon is being treated unfairly" but rather that it is not right to take from people that produce and give it to people that do nothing, all in the mantra of "the common good". The takers are labeled as the "moochers" and the businessmen are the "producers". It's basic economics in the fact that you cannot have more "moochers" than you have producers. There is a point in which the people who are the producers, those paying taxes into the system, cannot pay enough to support the "moochers". In Atlas Shrugged, the producers speed this process up by refusing to keep working. There is an old saying "Don't work your mule harder than yourself, because tomorrow your going to need the mule". The novel also devls into some points that have been brought up in this thread. The fact that it is getting increasingly harder for the medium size business to compete and make a profit. My thoughts are the large corporations, through lobbyist in DC, push a great deal of new regulations from environmental to safety through Congress. The reason being is it will take a staff of accountants, lawyers and engineers to cipher through the paperwork - something a large corporation has and a small to medium size company does not. It is a twisted way to weed out the competition. Now I am not speaking of the common sense environmental and safety rules that have been enacted. I am talking about the mirad of paperwork and constant changing of the requirements, for example just look at our tax code. I will tie my above thought back into the story line of Atlas Shrugged. Jim Taggart who was the heir apparent to the Taggart Railroad was in bed with the government in the novel, favoring the regulations being passed knowing it would crush what little competition he had left. Of course the story line and message go much deaper than that but one would need to read the book to get the effect. Not really, the message is still the same. What you describe above is just normal evolution of industrialism/technology and really has nothing to do with the message of the novel about punishing the producers and giving the fruits of their labor and engenuity to others that do nothing. Around here, back in the '70's every builder had a labor crew of 10-12 guys that did everything from dig footings to spread gravel by hand in basments. Now we have skids and mini-ex's to do that work. Has the skid and mini kept workers from sharing in the prosperity? Now to give Ann Rand's philosophy a current day example. I have been in the grocery store with a very nicely dressed woman , hair and nails professionally done, with the latest I phone stuck to her ear checking out in front of me. She has a cart full of things. As she is talking on her I phone, she carefully seperates her goods on the belt. Food and related items are bunched together first, leaving the beer, wine and cigarrettes in the cart. The clerk runs through the first set of food and related goods. She proceeds to pull out a stack of food stamps to pay for that lot. She then proceeds to place the beer, wine and cigarrettes on the belt. While pausing her converstaion on her I phone, she pulls out a wad of cash and proceeds to pay for the beer, etc. Now I am waiting in line, after a hard day of work, to pay for my few things I have so I can go home, take a shower, cook dinner and start the day over again tomorrow. At the end of the week I have a tax bill due that takes just shy of 36% of what I worked for that week. The above example is just a small part of the total aggregate we call taxation and our ever bloated government. There are many, many more areas in which our tax dollars are wasted in the form of handouts to people who sit on their duff all day to multi-national corporations. It all needs to come to an abrupt end. Yes I think the message in Atlas Shrugged is every bit as pertinent today as when it was written.
I have been purposely avoiding this thread like it's a plague. But I had to say "hear hear" to CM1995. One axiom I'm compelled to add about human nature; The poor remain poor because they continue to do the things that make them poor. The rich remain rich because they continue to do the things that make them rich. But I find the rich more useful to me. After all, a poor person is not likely to pay me to fix his broken garage door, or bake his deli bread, or dry clean his suits, or wax his yacht, or drive his limo, or...you get the message.
This is something I have been thinking about for a long time. I was thinking about starting a thread to see what you all think but after reading CM's post above I thought i'd throw it in here. Please let me know what you think. Food stamps should only buy one generic brand of nutritious, basic food from a special aisle in the grocery store. It should not buy drink mixers, candy, or anything luxuriuos. Welfare should only buy one color and style of clothing. It should not be money that can be used for anything the recipient wants. Living off the work of others should be a last resort, not an attractive lifestyle. Please tell me where I am wrong, and thanks for the oportunity to:soapbox Mitch
Well, I'll have to get hold of a copy and read it, but I'm still not convinced it's as valid as it might've been back then. I knew as soon as you started on the grocery store story that it was going to end with food stamps. Those moochers have always been with us, and always will be. That's not what I was addressing. Here's where I think you're missing my point. Wall Street, for example, makes tons of money. It moves money around from point A to point B, and siphons off a little every time it does. What does it "produce"? The other point I made was about technology. Thanks. Perfect example, and it hits right here at home. Did those builders, who now have a crew of 5 or 6, and a mini and a skidder, double the wages of those 5 or 6 guys? Of course not. So yeah, even at this level, technology has negatively impacted the sharing of prosperity. Magnify it by several thousand times, as in the steel industry, and you end up with a whole bunch of people, who've always been willing to work, never wanted to be moochers, but they can't find jobs anymore. And I'm not blaming the builder that's invested in those machines, or begrudging him his profits, but I honestly think that's one of the biggest sociological problems we face today. Good jobs, where somebody got an honest day's pay for an honest day's work are disappearing, and there are no similar jobs to replace them. Follow the trend to its logical conclusion, and you'll have a society where machines produce everything, so people need to produce nothing. It may be generations away from being that absolute, but you can't convince me we're not pointed in that direction. Great, right? Until you need to answer the question of how everybody pays the owners of the machines for their services... Does Rand address that? And since ATCO posted while I was typing... A few posts above, I lamented the shrinking of the middle class. Again, those are the people I'm talking about. People who've never wanted a job aren't going to miss them, but what do you say to those who do want a job but can't find one? BTW, here's some interesting reading on what some guys do that makes them rich: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/01/ceo-pay-layoffs_n_701908.html
The rich versus poor argument is not going to go anywhere. The real question is do you have a chance at becoming rich? In the last twenty years that question is answered by "not so much". In fact if you are middle class it is much more likely that you are getting poorer by the day through no fault of your own. I've been in the twenty eight percent tax income tax rate for some time. Rich people make their money on investments and only pay fifteen percent. Why do they get the break and we pay full bore. It's time to look past the propaganda blasted out by the boo birds on the right wing media and the whiners on the left. Again we are fighting two wars, the rich are shipping jobs overseas, we have looted the social security trust fund and are borrowing more money from overseas than ever before. So how are we supposed to pay for this going forward? The tax cuts from the Bush administration did not prevent rich people from creating jobs when the bubble burst. It is still in effect and jobs are certainly not being created. Rich people lobbied congress to get the Glass-Steagall act repealed and implement the Graham-Leach-Bliley act which allowed investment banks to get into retail banking and allowing the end of regulations. Tax payers bailed out the rich bankers so they could go back and do the same thing all over again in a few years. The financial reform bill just passed through congress was watered down by rich people's lobbyists so that regulations would not rein in the excesses by the financial sector. So just why should they still enjoy the tax break going forward?
Quote: The banks were forced to make loans to risky borrowers due to government regulation (control) over the banks. Well I obviously ain't too smart either, just read my posts. I really don't care about some government report. Unfortunately we live in a time where most people have no integrity and the government officials most of all fit into that category. Do I need to point to all the stories about false claims from our elected officials (C.A.R.B. comes to mind) with skewed reports or findings to support their agenda's? I have a good friend who owns a local bank. The federal regulators came in on him about 8 years ago after an audit and informed him that they would increase his rate at which he borrows (from the fed where he is forced by regulation to get funds from) if he did not have a certain percentage of loans that included what are now know to be high risk loans, you know the ones Jesse Jackson went around the country pushing after one of the fair housing acts was passed. If he was to remain in business what was he going to do? They would have increased the rate on all of the money that he loans. Fast forward to 2009. Guess which category of loans he is now having to foreclose on? He is 80 years old and been in the banking business for over 60 years and he personally told me he has never seen such and anti-small business climate in his life. I will take his experience over any Harvard educated fool any day.
Well, when it comes to integrity, after the events of the past few years, I'm not sure most people would rate bankers any higher than government officials. Maybe your friend is different. Like I said, there are lots of opposing opinions on the subject. The only reason I linked the report from the guy at Harvard was that it was the first one short enough that it didn't exceed my attention span, and it contained actual numbers. I don't remember where I heard it said, but somebody said, "If you see a banker leap out of a third story window, follow him, because that's where the money is." The numbers weren't in the parts I quoted, but essentially, 9% of the bad loans came from the banks covered by the law, and the other 91% of the bad loans came from the rest of the banking industry. To me, those numbers say that the banking industry at large saw the opportunity to make a buck, by making unsafe loans, so that's where they went. They weren't pushed out the window by the government. Your mileage may vary...
i'm amazed you've allowed this thread to go as long as it has. i applaud you!!! that said...let's try a new concept...let's keep our tax dollars to educate our kids, , fend for the poor, fix our streets, sewers, protect us from fire and evil people...in doing so, all the people holding the positions in those positions...remember the ones attempting to pay their salaries, and their benefit packages. there has to be an end game here....history will tell you, redistribute wealth all you want, eventually, it's going to end up in a small percentage of hands once again...the only cure here is, to make EVERYBODY capable of being productive...to do so, and to prepare for their OWN retirement without depending on the taxpayers for it. not such a hard concept.
I enjoy good, civil, thought provoking discussion which I feel that this thread has been. There are many different views as to why the "pulse of America" is in the condition that it is, and thats what they are, views, from different and very diverse prospectives. I have never seen a time like this in my life (I am 38). I have been a mechanic since high school and a business owner for the vast majority of my adult life. In the past if I wanted to buy something outside of my budget I would just increase my work load to afford it. But in the last few years I have only been able to generate enough work just to keep food on the table and keep the bill collectors satisfied. I have very little debt besides my home. I am not complaining I feel blessed just to be able to support my family of six. I appreciate those who have contributed to the discussion whether I agree with them or not. It is helpful to consider different points of view that I would not be subjected to in my own circles of social contact. I also appreciate the moderation of this site.
Take a deep look who we owe in this world, their waiting, better learn to speek Chinese
Very thought provoking thread. Lets look at the bigger picture for a moment. All things in this reality have a cycle. The Cycle of Civilization Man begins his existence in bondage, and rises: from bondage through spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back into bondage. -Clarence Manion, dean of Nortre Dame law school (1941-1952) as quoted in “In whom do you trust?”, R.B. Thieme, Jr. That deals more with Man (who creates the civilization). What about the civilizations they lived in? In antiquity they seemd to live a normal life cylcle. Birth thru death. Now many seem to be just cycling like the seasons. China seems poised for spring Not sure where Russia is. They went into winter awhile back. Seems they chose that though. America seems to be headed into winter. Winters have always been hard on man and his creations. Not sure where Europe as a whole is. They tried awhile back to creat a spring with the formation of the EU but it does not look like it is working as planned. Anyway..............................
If nothing is done,I believe that the ability to speak an opposing view will be lost.
If nothing is done,I believe that the ability to speak an opposing view will be lost. Just wait until the cold meds Kick in Cat Wrench (I have da Flu ) then the truck driver thought,Wit and wisdom will ooze all over the page
Looking forward to it with great expectation . Nothing beats medicated truck driver wit.:drinkup
I think they're kickin in already. Either that or I'm seeing double... :dizzy
Just some random thoughts,Why haven't we the people forced congress to live with the laws it passes.......The health care program ,The biggest money grab on earth.If it is the most wondrous thing since sliced bread , Why not join the the simple people they care so very much about. (Their words not mine) If you are too lazy to vote,Shut up.I'm sick of you. property taxes should be voted on only by property owners
I have been enjoying this. Nice to have a good debate. I will chip in a bit on Diggers take. The machines may replace the direct labor on the job, such as your example of there only being a crew of 5 or 6 and some machinery instead of 10 or 12 without the machines. Think about this though. It is not a loss of jobs, but a relocation of the jobs. There were manufacturing jobs created to build the machines. There were mining jobs created to mine the raw material to build the machines. There was transportation jobs created to move the raw material and the finished product. There were sales jobs created at the dealer who sells the machines, and there were maintenance jobs created for those who service the machines. The loss of labor on one side of the coin was balanced by an increase accross the industries I mentioned, plus others I didn't. Then there is the productivity gain, because the contractor can now build more faster, and move on. The part most have trouble with is that those 6 recently unemployed laborers have no job, unless they take initiative and learn a new skill to find a job in one of the new industries that helped eliminate his old position. For those with initiative, this will be done, and for those looking for an excuse of "how unfair it all is" they will sit and complain while waiting on a handout. Machines have been replacing physical labor for several hundred years, and it has led to the standard of living we are accustomed to, which is much better than that lived through by those before the industrial revolution. Progress can't be stopped, as each individual with drive will strive to do more than he could before. That leads to innovation. New technologies will render obsolete the high tech items of yesterday. There are really only 2 options there. Take advantage of the benefits and increase your productivity, or slip behind as others do the work more efficiently. That is an entirely different argument than the political one of taking from the producers to support the do-littles. I agree that Atlas is just as relevant now as it was when it was written. Sure, the details of the technology are different, but the ideas behind them are the same. I will save thoughts on that for a later post, as I now have to go put my words of "wisdom?" to work for myself.
I'm going to be away from HEF for the next day and a half, but real quick, let me reply to that. I'm not sure it's the case, or more accurately, I'm sure its not the case, that the lost labor jobs are being replaced one for one by technical or manufacturing jobs. I mentioned the steel industry earlier. I don't have time to search for numbers, but I know that the man hours/ton of steel produced is a mere fraction of what it was 50 years ago. Here in Pittsburgh, tens of thousands of steel jobs went away, not just overseas, but gone for good, because of more efficient technology. Also, you have to accept the fact that not every honest and hard working individual is mentally equipped to function in a high tech environment. "Strong backs and weak minds" is a phrase that has sometimes been used to describe a large part of the labor force. In the past, those people were still able to make a decent living, by working hard. Do such opportunities still exist for that segment of the population? (BTW, I couldn't agree more with Dayexco where he led with, "let's try a new concept...let's keep our tax dollars to educate our kids,", because a good education is more important than it's ever been.) I had a question that was inspired by ATCO's comment as well--in terms of technician man hours/yard of earth moved, are we more or less efficient than we were 50 years ago? I don't know the answer, but I'd bet good money that today's more sophisticated, more efficient equipment requires fewer service hours per yard than the old beasts that could be fixed by anybody with a set of wrenches, not only due to the equipment being more efficient, but the service process being more efficient. Let's not even get into processes where computers now do the lion's share of the work, like engineering or bookeeping. How many bookeepers and secretarial positions disappeared directly due to the power of the machine you're reading these words on? Where do those people work now?
“Adapt and Overcome…” – MSG E. Thompson, 313th BN (ABN), 1979 We as a nation used to be the best at this,Not any more. My oldest son who I am very proud of ,was oiling on cranes but when the market died he did not sit there waiting on the government to fix things he jumped in the cab of a truck and started making money again. While not the best job he is taking care of bis. Hes waiting for the day things improve enough that he can go back to oiling. Why do so many want the gov to wipe their nose's and make things better. "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
Well, I've been called a number of things in my life...inspirational is a new one for me. Hmmm :tong
i think we are all forgetting the important issue. steve agreed with me
America has a pulse? I thought it flat lined sometime ago. There are very few people that know the difference between drawing a pay check and earning one. Most people seem to believe that all one has to do is go to the backyard and pull money off the tree. If we could market laziness and stupidity, the USA would be rolling in the dough. I have never figured out why people choose to use a guy in his sixties, over someone in their thirties. The guy in his sixties and above probably isn't running any machines himself any longer. Someone in their thirties is still in the trenches, hard work hasn't done him in yet. I'm 44 and each year I age, I get more clients. After jumping off equipment and climbing over excavation sites, I now crawl out cabs. My prime was sometime before 40. Will I ever jump again?
A post like yours, only confirms the point. That you dont know, THAT you dont know. What your talking about.
I know exactly what I'm talking about. Do you? If you had the capacity to comprehend, never mind too big of words for you. Try reading ****, Jane and Spot; then get back to me. Edit: A prime example of what is wrong, the name of a person banned. The good old USA, politicially correct even when it is wrong. Said worse when I get a paper cut. By the way I'm a tad bit sarcastic for those that can't tell. For those really slow S A R C A S T I C
Your not worth my time, and you have just proved, my point. Good day.
And you proved mine. Too stupid to debate. Americans thank you for making them shine.
I said good day!
nice fella, ain't he, ddigger. Does he want to be unemployed when he is older?
OK, I think that is enough, let's all get back to an intelligent conversation discussing the topic. The discussion taking place within this thread is very important to most of our members and I will not allow this thread to get sidetracked with a sophmoric exchange. Well the autosensor software cannot differentiate between a word used for a name as well as a vulgar term. It's just the way it is.:cool2
CAT FIGHT!!!....gees, a meeting of the minds, and nobody showed up
The pulse of Amarica: There... an old man fixed it for ya'... :tong Bah ha ha ha ha! OCR... :lmao
At least I learned one thing. The folks at the Senior Citizen Center all stick together.
this thread is closed until further notice!
OK, let's see if we can get this thread back on track. There are many good points brought up so far but I will get back to the discussion me and digger was having: Digger, I don't think you fully understand the term "moocher". Who said the Wall Street types aren't moochers?:cool2 Back to the Atlas Shrugged definition of a moocher. Ann Rand described the moochers not necessarily as the person who recieves public assistance but rather the politicians and the businessmen in cohorts with them that take through the pasing of laws and regulations from the producers and give to the moochers. I think one of the biggest threats to the middle class and small businesses are the career politicians on both sides of the aisle and lobbyists in DC, flush with corporate money to influence laws and regulations on behalf of the corporations who hire them. Just look at the tax law and the monsterous health care bill. IMO, we need to throw the babies out with the bath water this time in DC. What we need as a country is new blood in DC and hold them accountable. The career politicians in DC are not the Statesmen that our Founding Fathers had in mind that would take time away from the farm or business, serve their term and go back home, thus recirculating common sense blood through our gov't. I think we as Citizens should demand term limits for Congress, same as our President, 2 terms. On a different note: Did you know that the Federal Reserve (who controls the US money supply) is a private entity?:cool2
Thank You CM1995 for having the good sense to control this post and keep it on track. Career politicians are not what the founders had in mind .Some of the guys from Missouri have been in office since I was in high school. One has been in there so long he feels he does not have to answer for they votes he makes .....hes been reelected for years and will leave when hes carried out feet 1st. Those are the guys that need to see the unemployment line
CM1995 Many thanks for not letting this turn into an out of control thread. Digger242 I still think you are missing my point. I did not say that there would be a 1:1 replacement of the jobs lost in any local area. That has also been the nature of progress from the earliest times. The jobs created that I mentioned are spread far and wide. some may be local, say the mechanic and dealer for the machine, but they will be few where the labor displaced by the machines will be many. The point is that somewhere in the economy there is new jobs created. They will likely be spread worldwide, and some will pay more while some will pay less. Each business will chose to do things in a way likely to make the most profit. If not, they will stagnate and likely fail. Labor intensive jobs will move to areas where labor is cheaper, while costly to transport jobs will stay close to the end user. Like in the car assembly example earlier. If something is easy (effecient) to move, you can assemble it anywhere. The displaced labor will have to make choices. This gets to my point. Some will chose to undergo training for a new career in a different field, some will move to an area with more potential work of the type they did before, some will start their own small business and try to make it that way. There are also those who will sit on their porch and cry that "someone" should take care of them. I agree though that currently, even for someone motivated to find their own way, the options and opportunities are very few. That will change, in time. You are right about there being less options for the "strong back, weak mind" group, but they are still there. They also find it harder and harder to land a job that will support a middle class lifestyle.
Tiny, Jerry thanks for the appreciation. Jerry, I share the same view of how technology evolves and how a worker has to evolve with it or be left behind. I had a large post typed up the other day but the laptops battery took a dump.:bash Anyway... I need to explain the example I made in a previous post about the skid and mini replacing a crew of 10-12 guys. In the '70's, a builder would have 10-12 guys with wheel barrows and shovels do most of the fine grade work, spreading stone in basements, etc. (Although they did have a tractor with a box blade and track loaders for the heavy work). In my example the skid and mini didn't take these jobs, the recession of the early '80's did that, as this builder went out of business during that time. The skids didn't catch on until the later part of the '80's and mini's in the '90's. When the residential market started to come back in the mid to late '80's it was a different game with different players. The new builders had to find ways to do things more efficiently in order to compete- thus enter the skid into the business. If anyone has been in a manually labor intensive business, you know that if you need 10-12 regular employees to show up you need 25-30 on the payroll. The skid replaced this labor hassle with a more efficient, faster way of doing things. We shouldn't be worried about loosing jobs that technological advances render obsolete. As someone has pointed out earlier, that is why we in the US have a high standard of living. Technology has a way of closing one door but opening another. We all have to adapt in one way or the other, that's what has built our country. The current "mini-depression" is the reason why so many able minded people are out of work and cannot find a job. This too will pass. Another example of one door opening and another closing: Take the first mass produced automobile. Until the first auto was available to the masses, transportation basically consisted of animal or steam power. As the auto gained market share from the horse and buggy industry, I am sure they were worried about the loss of jobs- what were the blacksmiths, horse breaders and buggy makers going to do? Rightly so they should have been worried because obviously they could not fathom the size of the coming auto industry and the opportunities it would create. My point being is that the displaced blacksmiths, horse breeders and buggy makers became the auto dealers, mechanics, salesman, gas station owners and attendants, etc. One door closed and another opened. Here is the history of one of the oldest Ford dealers and how Mr Long was able to see the future and was generously rewarded for it. Mr Long, previously to his first Ford dealership, owned a hardware store with probably a dozen or so employees. He did not shut his hardware store down as it is still in business today. Now how many jobs did that Model T bring to Alabama? Referring to the computer taking away a bookkeepers job, I don't see how that could ever happen. The computer has greatly increased the efficiency in which business operates but along with the efficiency of the computer, new regulations and paperwork requirements have been enacted, which IMO has negated any real efficiency the computer has provided. The office still requires the same amount staff for the same amount of work today as it did prior to computers being widely used in business, since 25-30 years ago we didn't have near the paperwork requirements of today for a small business.
My thoughts are that technology advances and machines wear out. The owners of a factory after say 30 years find it is cheaper to build a new plant rather than upgrade the existing one. Anyone who has renovated a house for themselves (not to flip) knows this. If you are going to build a new plant anyway why not build it where labour is cheaper. Why wouldn't management do this, it is the best method to increase the profits for the owners/shareholders and this will keep that CEO salary and bonus's going up. The problem is that it is bad for our workers, our other businesses and our country. When these jobs head overseas we lose wages, supplier and service business and taxes. Then we buy back the products and enrich workers in another country, the supplier and service business owners there and a foreign government, that we may have to defend ourselves from someday. Can someone explain to me how "free" trade with China is making our countrys better? I could see if we competed on a level playing field but how can we compete with a country like China whose workers are not free and some commit suicide to escape their poor living conditions. A country that keeps it's currency artificially low so no other country can compete with them. How can we afford to live free in a democracy with all it's extra costs and obligations when we compete with a communist dictatorship? I think the politicians have sold us out to the corporations. We need term limits for all politicians and the banning of corporate campaign donations and advertising, most of which is totally unregulated and lets put duties back on cheap foreign goods. I saw somewhere that if you analyse the operation of most corporations (not all) comparing it to the symptoms of a mental disorder that they would be classified as psycopathic with no respect for people, laws, ethics only focused on the pursuit of short term profits. Here is the true bottom line, if we make it more profitable to make products here then corporations will do so.
And you notice when the thread went to hell... :cool2 Just got home after a six hour drive. I'll ruminate on the reasonable comments and get back to you later.
CM1995, Can you correct the spelling in the title please?
Thank you.
I think we are missing the big picture here. First, the people on this forum are from my impression self reliant and will generally find a way to keep income flowing to ensure a modest life style. I think it would be safe to say though that no one on here runs Caterpillar, Ford, General Motors, Chrysler, ADM, Rockwell, Boeing, Chase, AIG, Goldman Sachs and on and on. The big issue is that our segment of the population does not control the government. That is province of the moderate and mega rich. How many here have contributed more than a thousand dollars to a political campaign? How many here could get an appointment to see their state representative, federal representative or senator? How many here get to have input on a bill before congress? How many here have the ability to leverage congress in a direction beneficial their own interests. Is there anyone here that thinks they can get elected to state or political office without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars? Yes I will agree that there are big problems with how our government spends money. Yes I will agree that government is bloated and rife with what should be described as criminal behavior. But who made it that way? While rich people and huge corporations throw huge amounts of money at politicians, middle class and poor people are worried about survival. Our government is a product of the manipulation of the rich. So why should they continue to get tax breaks for keeping us from becoming rich?
My Dad used to say ''Before a backhoe operator can run a backhoe,he should learn how to operate a shovel.Before an engineer can design a job,he should learn how to operate a backhoe.'' I think we need a new requirement for politicians----they need to spend at least 5 years on a small working farm to see firsthand hard real work and how and why financial decisions are made.Then, later,for every 5 years they serve as some type of politician,they have to go back and work back on some farm so they get an update to refresh their thinking and actions on REAL life. The only problem might be from some of the animals---they probably would object having them around.
I agree with the premise of your post but I think you are missing the real problem. What needs to be done is to go after corruption, corrupt political practices and most of all corrupt politicians. Taxing people or corporations to control them is wrong and moves more power from the citizens to the government, in that scenario you have created a monster worse than the one your where attempting to slay. If you feel taxing a certain segment of the population at a higher rate (read percentage) is the answer you are falling prey to the class envy that elitists have used to steal control since nearly the dawn of time. Potential politicians need to be scared to enter politics for fear of the citizens if they are found in corrupt practices.
We dont usually do residential but we've had a few calls latelly from GCs. It seems like they can't find residential excavator companies anymore. Problem is its not new construction but rehab work like everything else. Its getting to the point we just might have to start tearing down ten year old houses. The real reason we are in this financial problem is the fact disposable housing should last at least fifty year but where going to see twenty-five years out of the current houses. Its products, engineers, carpenter, and excavating outfits all pushed by the "investor". I'm also on the boat that this correction is necessary or else my son quite possibly will be in a worse spot then we are now.
Well said Cat Wrench. If we just increase the taxes on the "rich" and corporations we just feed more money to the already corrupt and bloated Fed gov't. We don't need to throw gas on the fire. My thoughts are we, as citizens, demand the gov't spend less and take less of all of our money at the end of the year. If taxes are raised on Corporations, the end user/buyer pays the tax increase anyway. Taxes are a line item cost for Corporations, in calculating sales price of the good or service. John, you can also take advantage of 15% capital gains taxes just like every other citizen here.:beatsme You are comparing the income tax rate to the captial gains tax rate which are two different animals. For example, say you buy 10 acres of land for $20,000. You hold it for 5 years and sell it for $35,000. Your profit of $15K, less associated right offs, would be only taxed at 15% not the normal income tax rate. I may not be the CFO of Cat but I try to think that way.:cool2 BTW - the term "Rich" has been thrown around in this thread a lot. How much money does one person need to have to be considered "rich"?
Monkeys -- Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all the monkeys with cold water. After a while another monkey makes the attempt with same result, all the monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon when another Monkey tries to climb the stairs, the other monkeys will try to prevent it. Now, put the cold water away. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his shock, all of the other monkeys beat the snot out of him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs he will be assaulted. Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm. Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him up have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs OR even why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. Finally, after replacing all of the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know, that is the way it has always been done around here. And that, my fellow monkeys, is how Congress operates - And precisely why we need to REPLACE all the monkeys this November.
Very nice analogy Davidd. BTW, that kinda sounds like our behavior at our chatroom, monkees in a cage. LoL
The pulse of America: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_upper_class OCR
For the sake of conversation, the way I look at it is we have people pulling the cart and we have people riding in the cart. What if by chance we are already to the point of more people riding than there are pulling? So, for conversations sake ,the people in the cart vote their hearts and things remain pretty much the same. Does any of you brilliant minds out there have a follow up plan......?
Most people define rich like this; Someone with more money than them.
Don't need one. The system at that point will collapse (it may be there already) and we will find out the true reason for the Second Amendment.
davidd has good pionts.. I rather congress be limited to two terms, first term in conngress, second term in prison(or visaxversa).. Just my 25 cents, dont forget inflation that they say doesnt exist.
There is a good article that all should read. It is rather long so I will post the link. It is an explamation as to why all this is happening. David d. http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/overwhelm.asp Good night John Boy
Very good thread!! It all boils down to the fact that we as a country have major problems. It doesn't matter whether it was a political decission or a business decission, they were bad decissions. The Bible says this: 1 Timothy 6:10 (New International Version) "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." The greed of those that have made the decissions, is ultimately to blame. It all started when The Bible and prayer were taken out of public schools. The snowball effect from there is evident everytime we turn on the TV or open a newspaper. In short: Without revival in America, we are doomed to suffer the consequences of our sin. Just my message from the pulpit.
The pulse of America: Why yes, I do... but unless you're 60 or over, you just can't be privy to it... :cool2 I really am sorry... :crying OCR
Well lets hope the elections turn out for the betterment of this country,,,,,that way I wouldn't need to see your plan......At your age they don't call it a plan, its called assisted living....bh h hah ha:cool2
Let's take a moment and read the Forum Rules again... We started out and spent a couple of pages tap dancing on the ragged border between politics (the politics that is influencing our business climate), economics, and sociology, and with the exception of CM's need to take temporary action, it's been ok. In the last few posts, we're venturing into some pretty sketchy territory, including allegations that the President is intent on destroying the country, (david d, the Snopes article you link affirms that that particular author did indeed make that claim; not that the claim is true), a hint at violent revolution (Cat wrench, keep your guns clean if you like, but please don't plan on shooting any people on either side of the question just yet), and a message from the pulpit. Big red flags all, that a thread may soon get out of hand, for those of us who have to wear the Moderator Hat. Let's all try to keep within the rules, and if you're not sure you're within the rules, you're probably not...
No digger I am not suggesting shooting anyone just stimulating thought on what would happen if the whole system as we know it failed, I was not insinuating revolution. I think the resiliency of or country is shaken but not fatally wounded. The United States was founded by some of the most brilliant men that ever walked the face of the earth. We have a great heritage and quite possibly a great future we just have to give it the correction our Constitution has afforded us, that is the power to vote and change the climate of politics in our land. I often think about the construction heydays that brought us the highways, created great companies that our elders retired from, brought us lots of equipment (when will we ever see as many scrapers as were built in the 60-70's) and created an infrastructure that we are still profiting from today. I think if we can get back on track we will be poised to see things the younger ones of us only heard about. The highway boom was real and needed unlike the synthetic housing boom. For most of us the housing boom was the only construction explosion we have seen.
I'll consider the current proposal in congress concerning rolling back the Bush era tax cuts as the bottom level of rich. Two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year in income. You can make all the analogies you want to support why raising taxes on the rich is bad. But what you can't support is borrowing money from China to fund two wars, a health care program that will grow from nothing to billions of dollars and continue to pay unemployment forever and allow thousands of illegal immigrants to benefit from our health care and education systems. What I can see is that the current system is not supportable. Many of you speak of people who don't want to work. I don't associate with those types of people. I do associate with many who are out of work and just collecting unemployment to make ends meet. Many will lose that soon with a big bunch losing houses not because they made bad loans, but because there is no work. They are not going to move to China to find work. That being the case how many of them do you think you will get saddled with supporting?
With all due respect, not just here on HEF, but other places on the 'net, and in the blogosphere, we've all seen firearms mentioned in the same breath as other possible solutions to our current problems. What I was trying to get across is that that raises a red flag to me, in the role of a moderator, as I don't really consider violence to be part of any viable solution, ergo, even the mention of it really doesn't have a place in a reasonable discussion of the problems. (Emphasis on the word "reasonable", since that's the type of discussion we're trying to maintain here.) I didn't say you or anybody else wasn't allowed to say it. I just felt I'd better point it out, so that everybody could give some thought to what they decide to post. It's my opinion, as a moderator , that any solution that considers violence addresses problems a whole lot bigger than what could be interpreted to be 'related to this industry', which is the limit on political discussion that the Forum Rules contain. Does that make sense to you?
Digger, You're doing a great job at moderating. This thread has strayed a little from the stated purpose, but it is a thread that will go down in infamy I do believe. Most all the boys and girls here are hard working individuals and the political debate that has and will affect their employment needs to be aired. I have no doubt that if the thread gets too far out of hand then you will corral it back in. That will include any post of mine. Thanks and keep up the good work. David d.
How many here have done time in politics then? If you agree with this quote above, and I think it's a good one, then before posters on this forum complain about the Government then they should spend some time in Government/Politics themselves. I don't mean running for Congress, I mean governing/politics at a community level where you experience much the same issues as the Federal/State Governments at a more local level. If you don't want to run as a candidate for your local Council or whatever your local Government, how about joining a local community advocacy group that works to ensure a good outcome at a local level for people in your own community from government expenditure. I do participate at a community level in a number of non profit and community based organisations which seek to bring a better outcome for everyone from the aged to children to small business in our community. It's in local politics that you realise how difficult it can be to meet the demands of the people in your community who feel that their issue is way more important than anyone else's. You understand that it's impossible to please everyone and you just have to do the best you can. Those you can't satisfy will badmouth you to all and sundry and those you please will praise you until inevitably they don't get what they want and then they will turn on you.:Banghead Mind you many of these people are too busy/lazy to do anything about their issues themselves, they just want to complain and have someone else fix things. I've seen a lot of blame levelled at Government of various levels on this thread, so how many of those complainants have actually participated in the process of trying to fix the problems through a more concerted effort at a local level. It's quite amazing how effective you can be at a local level in fixing problems because you have a more intimate understanding of the issues and people. Less blame, less justification, more responsibility! AusDave
I don't think much will ever change as long as we have 2 political party's who's only agenda seems to be shooting down what ever the other party proposes. We can't get ahead until we stop the childish fighting amongst the 2 party's. We need to abolish both party's and have one common goal, to straighten out this great country.
national socialism or Communism or dictatorship
liberalism and political correctness are killing this country, do you honestly think we could ever accomplish anything our founding fathers did with this bunch of young men(boys)? these kids are totally feminized. the greatest generation is way behind us,and dont think the commies and radicals dont notice it. SEMPER FIDELUS
I think you're starting to see that happen now with the Tea Party movement. While the majority of the members are Republican, their target of objection knows no party line. If you look at the writings of the founding fathers of our Country, you will find their intent was much like that of the current tea party. Our politicians were to be drawn from the regular populace, serve their time in office, and then return to their jobs at home. I find it amusing that in today's media, a candidate is considered to be "unqualified" to run for Federal office unless they are a career politician working their way up from the local levels. Many of our most noteworthy early Presidents were common folk with no political background prior to the Presidency. Look how far we've moved from that original idea of how our Country should be run! The Tea Party is targeting both Democrat and Republican candidates, anyone who has lost sight of our founding fathers doctrine regardless of party. The media is attempting to make a joke of them, but come Nov. 2, the joke will be on the media, revealing how ineffective and irrelevant they have become. The Tea Party speaks for the common American, those of us who are out busting our butts trying to scratch out a living and want to keep the majority of our rewards rather than hand them over to some government agency.
Well put Steve
And once again a reminder of the applicable Forum Rule, for everybody's edification: You can express your views, but you need to keep the rules in mind while doing so. It's the inflammatory language that makes the rule necessary. Dynahoescott, thank you for posting a perfect example of what the rule prohibits.
With all that said I say Ted Nugent for president...We need radical change.
I had absolutely no idea that this topic would create such an outlet of thoughts. I was just wondering if anyone else was feeling the same way I have been feeling, discouraged about our country and watching it slip away. The truth is that every great civilization has dissolved, plain and simple! But I'm thankful for where I am and that this is not all there is. J
dear moderators, Please excuse my rant and inapropriate choice of words. I knew they were inflamatory but did not think I said anything contrary to the stated rules. You are the moderator and I understand disciplined behavior and in the future will not stray far from the allotted zone of constriction. I trust you understand that I am an extremely passionate person on subjects that I care deeply about and security of our great nation is one of them. Again, accept my apologies for venturing out of bounds, I fully admit I was wrong for my actions and take full responsibility for my monologue, but not for my sentiment. Respectfully scotty:usa
We all understand that this thread has aroused a lot of passionate feelings, and we're trying our best to allow you all to express those feelings. If it were a matter deemed worthy of discipline, Scotty, you'd have heard from a moderator directly, via PM. As I've said before, there are occasions where pointing out where a post goes past the limits allowed by the rules works to enlighten everybody to where that (sometimes fuzzy) boundary line is.
More food for thought. I think we will all be pleased for the most part, after the election. But then what. Hopefully the re-awakening will continue. So many things in America are hot for the moment then sorta fade away. Perhaps a movement to have term limits for all congress persons. Now the present bunch will never pass such "foolishness". This would be a good target for the tea party. Any candicate should publicty sign a pledge to be a one or two term office holder. Without this pledge the tea part would pull their support. Once the tide has turned a bill or constitution amendment would be passed for term limits. I would not be surprised if some tea party folk are not already following this thread. So what say you about "after the election"?
The worst part is that almost all politicians are, or were, lawyers. And they word things so that the common person can't really understand what they are saying or doing. They look out for there own, and don't do anything unless it benefits them.
Diesel regs hurt too I posted the link to this story under another topic, but the more that know i think the better. One driver of cost increases in our work is these new emissions regs. CARB is where all of these started. 1st last year it came out that the guy in charge was a fraud. Now it is coming out that the data they used was wrong by about 300%. Now no one is for dirty air or water, at the same time I think things should be changed at a rate that costs can be eased into and at the same time allow tech to catch up. These new one road engines get less fuel econ and seem to have shorter life spans. Now it looks like some of these regs were never needed to begin with. I have read stories from CA about these putting people out of buisness and it starting to happen here in NY. Who can afford in these times to meet these new regs? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/10/07/BAOF1FDMRV.DTL#ixzz11iqEfuN9
Picked up another foreman from another company. People are pretty much on the last leg for tolerating this slowdown. Men need to work simple as that.
Count your lucky stars over here we are looking 5 to 5.5 years before anything major in infrastructure will start................looking like lean pickings for a while......................
I'm beginning to think that it may be the same here,All of the bridge construction jobs end in November. They do have jobs for next year but they don't start for 3 months . They are from a two year old contract.The bridge side has not gotten the bid on any new work for 18 months. The outlook is dismal .
Sorry Tiny...................... I am not what one would call a defeatist but well things here have been made in to a proper lou-bawn ( xxxx ed up in Gaelic).We have a population of less than 4million and the useless shower of incompetent politicians we have bailed out our thieving banks to the tune of 50billion and as a result for us to keep to the rigid EU euro requirements last year they took 4billion out of the economy,this year it is to be 4.5billion (new taxes,water charges tolls etc)and for the the Next four years we are being told it will be at least 4.5billion euro so health education everything will be cut nothing is to be spared......A week ago We all woke up 15k poorer due to this bank bail out,it is worse here now than the late seventies or eighties with people leaving in droves for anywhere ,states,Auz,UK, Canada. So thank your lucky stars that you guys are here ................................... beginning to think Iceland might be better................................
I understand your logic, but you can't accurately support your argument with such broad strokes. You refer to "the rich" as the culprits. "The rich" envelopes a very large number of people. The people responsible for the current state of affairs are by comparison a rather small number of people. The rich vs. poor argument is a red herring. It's a distraction that pre-occupies people and prevents them from thinking about and/or learning the truth. The culprits are not "the rich" as you describe. The culprits are the bankers, lobbyists and the maliable politicians that pass the laws. The proposed upcoming changes are to tax "the rich" are an attempt to reduce forcasted deficit spending (no mentions of balancing the budget have made it into the news). These taxes will be imposed upon "the rich" (generally speaking). However, rest assured that the people who created this mess already have their loopholes and tax shelters in place and they themselves will not be effected.
Very, very well stated.
Have not read all the posts but we have become a nation of consumers instead of producers. As long as we import the tens of thousand shipping containers we are exporting jobs and our pulse follows suit. We as a country need long term steady jobs that free enterprise and industry provide. If you look back to the free trade agreement I think you will find the orgin of todays weak pulse, obviously there have been other factors such as the latest housing fiasco and govt. regs that have added insult to injury but in a nut shell the loss of jobs is the cancer eating away our quality of life. It took 30 years to get this way and damned if I can see any light at the end of the tunnel.
The roots of our deficit spending government go back to the second world war but even then there was the expectation that the borrowed money was always going to be paid back. War bonds were purchased from the citizenry as an investment device. The next big borrowing binge happened in the sixties with Johnson's Great Society. Medicare was invented and funded out of the Social Security Trust fund. That began the huge binge by democratic governments to help "those who can't help themselves". It also began the help those who can get us reelected syndrome . Each time money was needed for some government program to help the poor down trodden sap who didn't want to or couldn't work, another program was brought in through another less publicized part of the bill to help the rich. It was paid for by borrowing money again out of the Social Security Trust Fund. Back about the mid nineties someone audited the trust fund and came to the conclusion it was not making enough interest along with the "contributions" we all make to fulfill its obligations to the retired folks. The rates were adjusted and someone somewhere decided it was better to sell treasury certificates to foreign nations than to continue to raid our own retirement program. Foreign nations jumped at the chance to put their wealth in safe keeping in a stabile nation and they jumped at it like a kid on a lake side diving board on a hot summer day. Now this was to everyones liking until the recent economic troubles. So now we have a huge jump again in a health care bill that no one yet has explained where the money to pay for it is going to come from. We have two wars with nation building programs for people who don't pay into our system, don't want our help and are too stupid to understand that they are responsible for their own problems. We allowed ourselves to be defrauded out of billions of dollars because we believed rich people would take care of our economy and not take advantage of designed weaknesses that stupid elected officials and bureaucrats hadn't even read and could not have understood anyway. I've never undertaken a debt that I didn't intend to repay with interest and I'm quite sure that kind of ethic is part of all who frequent this site. Unfortunately our leaders have taken the idea that we can just shove debt loads down the line for someone else to pay. What my whole thought process comes down to is that we are at the end of that slope. Blue collar Joe right now is very lucky if he has a job and most of his friends and relatives probably don't have a job. Illegal aliens and outsourcing along with the collapse of the worlds largest fraud have pretty well shut off his way of making a living. The feds now are paying their unemployment on borrowed money. Taxing them more is a losing proposition. Jack white collar though is sitting high, dry, fat and happy hiding away and waiting for something to happen that he can take advantage of again. Blue collar Joe isn't going to move to China for work. He isn't going to Mexico or Canada or Europe or anywhere else. When his unemployment runs out he will take to selling dope, living off the land or stealing from rich people. Like it or not taxes are going up if for no other reason than to prevent blue collar Joe from turning rogue. That kind of sounds like the atmosphere in Mexico right now. So please make a case for why we should keep giving tax breaks to the rich.
please make a case why we should keep giving tax refunds "EIC" to those who didn't pay in? why should those who busted their tail, took chances, even got lucky or inherited....have to sit back and allow somebody to take such a disproportionate share in the form of taxes just because they succeeded? i just don't understand that at all.
Politicians dont and wont have the gumption to make the changes this country needs to get back on track, it would cause severe pain for the whole country. The cowardly way will be buisiness as usual, they have to protect their chances of relection you know. Not if but when the house of cards fall, they will still think throwing money at a problem will fix anything. This country has been bankrupt since 1933, check FDR 's anouncement to congress and the american people. So whats the next step, it ant gona be pretty.
The upcoming taxes on "the rich" will not put a dent in the deficit. "The rich" are defined as anybody making (actually earning over $250,000 per year.....in the form of "wages" or "personal income"). My preferred tax structure is much more simple than what is currently in place, not to mention what lies ahead: Everybody pays the same tax rate....for example 18% on personal income. Add an additional 12% to anything over $100,000 per year. Give everybody (every taxpayer that is) a $6,000 tax personal tax deduction every year (this will help low wage earners pay for essentials, but everybody is entitled for the sake of equality). Skip the death tax. More often than not, when someone inherits money, they quickly find a way to spend it. I'd rather see that money in circulation. A doctor cannot save a bleeding patient simply by administering more blood. The bleeding must be stopped. I think the state of California is a prime example as to why it is not productive to blindly tax a population that is loosely defined as "the rich". Between 1990-2010, 129 companies have left the state or de-invested in California. 25% of California manufacturing jobs are gone. A failed tax structure on a state level will be just as much of a failure- if not more -on a federal level. :beatsme
Solutions start with you and your community I tried to make this point before but I was too longwinded. In the case of the politicians, put yourself in their shoes. Everyone wants their particular issue dealt with. A farmer wants a subsidy, (thats a tax on the population), a small business operator wants free trade, (cheaper products/machinery) and employee wants safer working conditions, (employers pay for this). The above items can all cost the country and negatively affect the economy, especially if managed poorly. However each taxpayer sees their needs as paramount and must be satisfied to get their vote. That's democracy, can be crap but it's better than the rest. In Australia we had some major economic reforms in the last twenty years which led to in increase in productivity and efficiency. This by and large led to benefits for all and a stronger and more competitive economy. We have in the last ten years years been coasting on the benefits of previous reforms and have been relying on the booming mining industry and China to pay our way. One day that will end and we had better have a good plan for improving our productivity and efficiency or we'll be in trouble. What I'm getting at is that no Tea Party or other group of Politicians is going to fix the USA or Europe for that matter. You need a more economically literate population to require more sustainable solutions to economic problems or you'll just repeat the same mistakes. eg. I don't think that banks would be giving home loans to people who have no hope of paying them if the general population pointed out this was plainly stupid. Get smarter, ignore the empty slogans and start in your own community and make it economically sustainable. The rest of the country might follow your example. Dave
AusDave, with all do respect I highlighted and underlined the part which proves you have no idea what you are talking about. You need to study the problem a little closer. This will help if you even care; YouTube - The Crisis of Credit Visualized - Part 1
Part 2 YouTube - The Crisis of Credit Visualized - Part 2
A reminder to be civil and keep this industry related, not a general discussion on politics. And don't give me that "all politics effects our industry" stuff...
My, my, my..... Steve and Cat Wrench are nailing it here. So please make a case for why we should keep giving tax breaks to the rich. Roughly 50% of the earners in this country don't pay any Federal income tax at all. The top percentiles pay the overwhelming amount of income tax as it is today with the current tax structure. I suppose you like living off of the "rich" and want to do so even more in the future? Remember, these are the "rich" as defined by the current drool-bib wearing Administration as those making $250k/yr. Ya know, monocle clad millionaires who live in mansions and have dozens of servants washing their RRs off of their $250k/year. How many entities generating less than $250k/year are serious job creators in this country? As long as we import the tens of thousand shipping containers we are exporting jobs and our pulse follows suit. We as a country need long term steady jobs that free enterprise and industry provide. And why are those containers from overseas arriving? Simple. It's cheaper to produce and transport, all costs considered, overseas than to produce close to home. Why? Unions and taxes. Take it for Gospel, it is. Unions- Edited. See below Taxes-all taxes are paid primarily by the middle class. Raise taxes on the "rich", the primary owners of business and industry in this country, and they do the logical and natural thing for any business and they pass that along to the consumer.........i.e., the middle class. When Bush enacted the tariff on imported metal products, guess what, the price of anything containing steel went up. We all noticed it and felt it. No one on this board, no one , operates any differently. No person here simply accepts higher operating costs, says "oh well, I guess they got me this time" and digs dipper into their great big account to pay up. DOES NOT HAPPEN. In this respect, the "rich" and big business and small business are no different. It's not that hard, people, and I'm frankly surprised that with so many seemingly involved in business on this board that this so very basic concept is lost. Essentially, the less overhead on any business INCLUDING GOVERNMENT TAXATION is always a good thing for any biz to survive and even thrive.
Great thought Joeintx. Just a quick thought, people say we need to tax the "rich" well, isn't that what we're all trying to become?!?! So where does that leave us?
AusDave, I know you mean well and what you are saying is absolutely true. But we do have some issues with our system that are probably unique. The first issue with getting involved is the time you have to take out of your business in order to volunteer for your community. If you are working local it's only a matter of a couple of nights a week and maybe some homework here and there. School boards, municipalities, fire districts and cities are usually always looking for people to volunteer their time and expertise. One can do that at times, just not all the time. Second issue is that we are a republic and not a true democracy. We elect people who we think represent our interests to spend more time in a less than local place to govern us. For a Washington state representative that means every other year you go to the capital in January and stay there until at least the end of March. Sometime you go into special session and stay until the end of May or beginning of June when your do nothing legislature does exactly that. Now our federal wags have to go back to the nations capital which for my state is at least 2,500 miles away. They stay there almost all of their time except when they have to come back home to campaign for re-election every two years for a representative or six years for a senator. Again we are supposed to vote for the person that we think represents our best interests. In actuality we vote for the person that will do us the least amount of harm. When you get a person that has been in office for a long time people know what to expect from that person so they usually get re-elected easily. The new person running is an unknown so their potential for doing harm is greater than the person in office. It takes a great deal of money to un-elect a sitting politician. Because of that we have a nuclear arms race of money trying to get a new politicians put in place. Because of the huge sums required now to get elected, the politician has to prostitute their values so that the money keeps coming in so they keep getting elected. Now we are stuck in the never ending circle of re-election cycles voting for the same people time after time. This piece of circular logic has a slang description of "Catch 22" I first heard it coined in a movie about WWII bomber pilots. You see unless the incumbent politician does something bad, like getting caught soliciting sex from another man in an airport bathroom or having someone paying to build your house at no cost to them, they ride the gravy train higher and higher until they die in office or finally retire. No one wants to take the chance on someone they don't know. The answer to ending this cycle is term limits which has been stated more than once in this thread. All that would take is a constitutional amendment. I believe that requires an act of congress and ratification by two thirds of our states. It's an easy fix except that we are forgetting about the "Catch 22". Our politicians will never cut their own throats and the electorate will not take the risk of harm to themselves in voting for new politicians every four or six years. You see everyone wants term limits for everyone else's politicians, not our own. The trap our founding fathers could not possibly have foreseen has come up to bite us two hundred years later. Our system is loosely based on the English system of governing I think. I haven't studied the English much, only heard parts of how their system works in the news. Perhaps your system has many of the same components. I would like to hear a little bit about how your system works if you have the time. Thanks for the outside input into the thread.
Since here in our industry, the union/non-union question is always a hot-button issue, our policy is to be "aggressiviely neutral" on the topic. That means you can't slam unions, any more than the union guys can argue their benefits, which they will. This thread is already requiring far too much attention from the moderators to keep it within bounds.
Hi Cat Wrench. I did watch the videos and already understood the credit crisis before this discussion and I stand by my comments. However I think I understand why my statements don't make as much sense to someone in the US as they do to someone in Australia or maybe the rest of the world. Although I won't say Australia wouldn't have a housing crash, it couldn't happen in the same way as the US. When you take out a home loan in Australia YOU take out the home loan, not the house. Whichever way the economy goes you can't walk away from your loan, you have it, not the house. Also in Australia giving loans to those could obviously not repay would not be allowed. We do have low doc loans but those too are scrutinised carefully by the tax office as they are often used by people with money from the black economy to avoid tax. There are a series of checks and balances in our system which it would seem to be of benefit to the US to consider. That's what I meant about getting smarter. Educate yourself about the way your economy works compared to other economies. At the very least you should be able to make much better investment decisions for your business and family. You may even consider going metric... AusDave
Dave, I figured it would be hard to understand that loans were given to those who couldn't afford it but believe me friend that is exactly what was happening. If a family cannot come up with 10-20% down what will happen to them when not if a problem arises? Default. If I understand you correctly you are saying we need to get involved and change the way things are done? Well that is precisely what we are doing in the next 22 days. Many of us have been involved for a long time. I like the loan system as you describe it in Australia. I am already convinced we should be on the metric system:thumbsup:usa
My personal take on the melt down. I don't know if I am write or not, but I have read a huge amount about this and I also have some friends in the loan buisness. Banks were pressured/forced to give loans to low income people who would not normally get a loan. This pressure was from the government, Andrew Como while at HUD himself said these very loans would have a higher rate of default than a normal loan. Yet they kept pushing these very things due to "it was the right thing to do" as he put it. An investor at one of the companies that insure the banks came up with a credit default swap. My understanding was they would at 1st group "good" debt with bad and sell it as an investment. This spread the risk around and would cushion any defaults. In time though some lenders found that no one was checking the stuff in these. So they could put bad debt with more bad debt and still sell it. The lender made money on closing costs and no risk due to they were going to sell the bad debt. That is how we got into no money down, or even no proof loan. No proof loan you go into a bank, show no ID or proof of a job and get a loan. Of course then there are adj rate loans, interest only loans etc. People didn't realize at some point there payments were going to go up. Since most places have property taxes they also went up. Again the bank or lender didn't care because the loan was sold as fast as it was made. Due to now anyone could get a loan this allowed people to make dumb choices over paying for houses. With no down payment, these people didn't care. Houses that were going up in value 10%-50% a year. This drove up home values and other people would refinance there current home taking money out to pay for vacations and other things. Others were "flipping" homes, buying, putting very little into them then selling at a huge profit. The problem is with wages going up at about 2% a year, inflation at about 2% it wasn't going to continue to begin with. Then when oil took off, that was in my mind what sent it all crashing down. People who were paying $25-$50 a week in fuel, were then paying double and triple that. Heating cost went up, it had to end. Now people who bought or refinaced and took money out now have home not worth the balance of the loan. Of course our leaders didn't do anything and those that tried were called racist or poor haters. What is really sad, is, nothing yet has really been done about this whole mess.
Hi John. Two points. 1. Yes, it seems like in the US your system of Government has some issues. Take a look at the way other countries govern, no point reinventing the wheel. There's a lot to learn from the recent issues in the US which have lead to your current economic state. But you have to overcome vested interests who don't want change. In the recent Health Care debate in the US for example, Australians were bemused at why you would let the health insurance industry dictate the outcome. I think our Australian Medicare system is similar to Canada and Aussies are very happy with it and can't understand why the US, which has higher health care costs than us, can't make the change. It seems the US has the best democracy money can buy... 2. Getting involved volunteering in your local community doesn't need to take time out of your business. I'm president of the board of one of our significant local charities which makes a large contribution to our community. It's run by local people for the benefit of local people. Meetings are at night at a time agreeable to the rest of the board. Getting involved in your community in this way not only benefits your community, it raises your own profile in a positive way. This is good for your business as long as you conduct yourself with integrity and avoid conflicts of interest. In regional communities where word of mouth is one of the best forms of advertising, being involved in your community as a volunteer is good for your community, good for your social life and can have real positive benefit for your business in my experience:thumbsup AusDave
Wow! Has this thread got some legs! Great Stuff. Anyway, I have to agree with AusDave with respect to aussies view of the US political system. As a Canadian, I think the US system is terribly paralyzed with special interests and pork. The whole country is thinking me me me. You can hardly blame the politicians for fighting for perks for their own constituency when it gets them elected back home. I was arguing with an American woman on a cruise one time about Obama’s health care plan. ( I lived in LA for a while so I know the American system a little bit) Anyway, I was beating on this woman at a bar to try to get her to justify her statement that there was no way in hell she was going to pay for anyone elses health problems. (I know Americans well enough to know you guys are not the least bit selfish like this) So I hammered on her for an hour to crack this selfishness, and find out what lied underneath. Finally she let it slip out that she doesn’t trust the government to do healthcare right. It was a real eye opener for me. This health care debate wasn’t about cost, money, poor vs rich, or anything else. It was about trust. Who knew? That was the day I realized a lot of Americans don’t trust their government(with good reason likely) and it changed my perspective on all politics. Anyway, that was my little story. You wanted to know something that works different in another country. In Canada, political contributions are capped at $1000. Not sure if that is personal contributions, but I know that’s what it is for companies. So there is now way a company can swing policy with money (maybe it happens but not to the extent as in the US) Also, Canada is more federalist. That means the federal government has most of the power. The provinces, not so much. It creates a lot of angst regionally because lots of regions want the power to govern themselves, but it also forces the provinces to work together to get programs from the feds. It ends up keeping the provinces all working together instead of against each other. This is kinda nice in my opinion. A downside is lots of times nothing gets done locally, since programs have to apply country wide in a lot of cases. Sometimes it seems like nothing ever gets done. What we don’t get is a law governing vehicle emissions, with a little line in it giving $20b to big pharma for instance. I must say that after many hundreds of years of lawmaking like that, the US has one seriously screwed up set of laws. Seems to me the US should start over, keep the constitution and bill of rights, scrap the rest and start over. Anyway, that is just my opinion, and I’m no expert. One thing is for sure, the grass is always greener…
Oh how I wish this would happen as does many of my fellow Americans.:usa
But wait a minute. Lets not forget the US is a great country. I sat with a ships doctor (another cruise) drinking brandy i think it was. Anyway, it was during the Obama run up. He was not impressed with his country and the way Bush had done things and the path Bush had chosen (Can't say i didn't agree with him) But i had to remind him that if it wasn't for the US health care system, the world wouldn't have MRI, CAT scans, organ transplants, viagara, and a whole bunch of other great stuff. I pointed out that socialized medicine does not have the cash to go around inventing stuff. The only way it works is if the technology is invented elsewhere, developed into an affordable product, and then brought in at lower cost. Canadian health care couldn't exist if the US didn't have for profit health care. That argument can be made for a whole host of technologies in our world today. This is the reason the US is the greatest country on earth. You guys have built this world into what it is today. This is one Canadian that understands this, and i try to spread it around up here. I know that if you watch the news (Fox in particular) it looks like the country has gone the hell. But it hasn't, and it won't. Good luck to you all. Ken
I think that the answer to getting term limits passed is to exempt every current Senator and Representative from the term limit. As stated before, none of them will ever vote to cut their own career short, but won't care so much about the next guy down the line. That means that it will be a slow progression toward real limits, but at least there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. Let them have 4 terms as a Rep. and/or 2 in the Sen. (if they can win the seat). 14 years total in politics is a respectable career and enough time to do some real good or real damage.
Back to the constitution would be GREAT, but do you realize that without an injured party there would be no crime. Most americans could not handle that much freedom. DC would be reduced to a shadow, it wouldnt go quietly. Great Stuff..
Took this from the "Construction equipment guide...................... President Touts $50B Transportation Proposal WASHINGTON (AP) President Barack Obama on Oct. 11 lobbied for Republican support from Capitol Hill for a burst of spending on transportation projects, calling his proposal a jobs creator for the middle class and an overdue investment in the country’s foundation. “There’s no reason why we can’t do this,” Obama said in a brief Rose Garden event. “There’s no reason why the world’s best infrastructure should lie beyond our borders. This is America. We’ve always had the best infrastructure ... All we need is the political will.” Obama is proposing a $50 billion plan as an initial step toward a six-year program of transportation programs. It calls for building, fixing or maintaining thousands of miles of roads, rail lines and airport runways, along with installing a new air navigation system to reduce travel delays, and other projects. The president unveiled the idea over Labor Day. The event amounted to another chance to promote it. The president met privately with governors, mayors, transportation officials and Cabinet secretaries and then stood with some of them before the cameras as he made his case. The timing also comes as Obama is eager to show action on the sluggish economy just ahead of the Nov. 2 congressional elections, with his party in jeopardy of losing a sizable number of seats in the House and Senate. Obama asked for Republican support, saying infrastructure work typically draws bipartisan support. But such cooperation seems unlikely in the current partisan atmosphere. The economy continues to dominate public concern. The public sector slashed 159,000 jobs in September, including the largest cuts by local governments in 28 years. Obama said his program would boost employment right away and help make up for what he called years of costly inattention to the country’s infrastructure. “Everywhere else, they’re thinking big. They’re creating jobs today, but they’re also playing to win tomorrow,” Obama said of some of the top economic competitors to the United States. “So the bottom line is our shortsightedness has come due. We can no longer afford to sit still.” The administration released a new analysis of Obama’s plan that said it would particularly help with middle-class jobs in construction, manufacturing and retail
Why believe them now? Why should we believe this garbage now. The stimulus bill which they have spent 60-70% of the $800 billion was suppose to be for that. Remember "shovel ready projects", "put people to work rebuilding roads and bridges". So now lets spend another 50 Billion that we don't have and slush more money to special interests. I personally don't think any more money should be spent till after January 1, and I hope and pray that this November some people with common sense get voted in.