I've never owned a skid steer before. I own 2 small horse farms in the suburbs of NY, one is 3 acres, the other only 1 acre. I currently own a New Holland Workmaster 35 tractor with loader, which I am only putting about 100 hours per year on handling all the property maintenance. Regular tasks are loading manure into a dumpster, scraping mud from paddocks and replacing with rca, screening/spreading sand, snow removal, driveway maintenance, riding ring maintenance. The tractor handles all these tasks poorly except riding arena because of the tr3 drag attached to it. I would like to make my life easier, and feel that I should have purchased a skidsteer in the first place, and an old tractor just to pull the arena drag. Which brings me to trying to find out the best machine for my needs. I am not opposed to buying new or used. I definitely want hvac. It needs to be small enough to meneouver in and out of 8' gates/fence openings with ease. It needs to handle a bucket of sand/rca with ease. I would like it be able to unload a pallet of anything(wood, stone, grain, etc) from a truck or trailer. I would like it to be able to move a mafia block. It will operate almost exclusively on RCA drives and dirt except for a little snow removal on paved surface. I occassionally need to scrape the top layer of a sand arena to be screened for rocks. I feel like a track machine would be ideal, but not sure the added cost is worth it? Would mud/snow ties minimize damage enough? I also prefer pilot controls, hand/foot is very foreign to me any time i have rented a skid, and already having a tractor with loader, i prefer to keep loader operation similar. I may branch out to do some outside property management/arena management/etc, but if not, I would like this to be a one time purchase. I prefer simple emissions system with as little maintenance as possible. Going in to dealers, I feel like they expect me to know exactly what I want, and seem frustrated with my questions as I try to determine what is best for me. I have been trying to watch the used market, but there doesnt seem to be a lot of good, fresh, used machines out there. Everything is either old with very high hours, or new-ish at practically new prices, which is why I am open to new. Please any input or advice would be appreciated.
No such thing as simple emissions As far as sales men go most only know what the product brochure tells them they have no real experience with equipment Skid steers are a tad friendlier to operate than track loaders mainly because tight turns like spinning 180 degrees on a dime eat tracks and those are not cheap As far as brands go find a dealer that has good service and parts that you like and start there machines are not created equal but any brand will for the most part perform what your doing fairly easy. I would suggest renting a machine to try them out and compare what works for you and what doesnt and try different brands to test out the dealers
As far as dealers, I have Case, Cat, and Bobcat 5 miniutes or so away. Out to a 30 min radius, I have Kubota, yanmar, Deere and New Holland, but I have not been impressed with the New Holland service people since thats where I bought my tractor.
So you have answered one question in the formula personally I like cat or deere I have never really liked case on anything but that's just my opinion Typically deere and cat are usually pretty strong with service and parts but sometimes they pay no mind to the little guy
Have you asked any of the dealers if they would let you demo a machine? When we were looking, we tried Cat, Bobcat, Case, and Kubota. I would have liked to try a 333 Deere, but RDO sucks as a dealer. Took 4 phone calls, and a week to get a price on a new machine, and they flat out refused to allow us a demo. We ended up with a Bobcat T770, it was a close call between that and the Kubota. In the end, the cab interior put the Bobcat on top for us. Didn't like anything about the Case, and I do not care for the controls in a Cat at all. We are on our second Bobcat, traded for a new one last winter.
Will your current tractor lift a full pallet of whatever? Ed
No, which is part of my problem. I can maybe lift 2k lbs a couple inches off the ground to move it around very carefully, or maybe 1500 lbs a couple feet off the ground. Those numbers go to crap without the 1k lb TR3 on the back of it as a counter weight. And with the drag on, I lose all maneuverability in tight spaces. Without the drag, I have to be careful with even a full bucket of sand or rca. Im not so worried about a demo. I'm a 100 hour a year user. I know I need a smaller machine. Someone made a point about wearing the expensive tracks out with too much tight maneuvering....I assumed the same thing and asked the Bobcat salesman the same thing about a month ago and he told me it wasnt an issue. He also told me I would have to go elsewhere if I wanted a mud/snow tire instead of the standard industrial tire. I guess I was just hoping to narrow down my option a bit by reliability and ease of maintenance in that size machine. Bobcat 590/595, Deere 320 or smaller, Cat 246 or smaller, etc
Withthe size machines you mention I'm not sure you are going to lift a full pallet of whatever. At least with ease and without counterweight. Most pallets of paver I get are over 3000 lbs. Forget mafia blocks unless you get the mini ones - full size 2x2x6 blocks run upwards of 4000lbs. You are well above the rated capacity and close to the tipping load on your chosen machines. Now this is not really a problem if you don't mind some tipping and running on 2 wheels. I often run near tipping load on mine but I know I am pushing the limits of the machine. As for tracks on pavement. The dealer is full of it. Especially when the machine is loaded they wear like crazy and the machine works hard to push them around. Another thing- on hot summer days the tracks will actually destroy chip seal and tear tar snakes right off.
wont be much operation on pavement other than snow removal, but most operation will be on course RCA, which i am sure will be just as abrasive. Really the machine is going to be operated daily with buckets of manure, sand, or rca. I only want the capability to lift a pallet of stone or a barrier block off of a truck or trailer if one gets delivered. While I am picking your brains, what kind of tire will I want to minimize damage to the ground. I am going to be maintaining sand riding arenas and paddocks, so I will want to disturb the base as little as possible while operating and maneuvering. I would assume a turf type tire wont give me great traction in for snow removal or if it gets too muddy. A good mud/snow tire?
I would look into an all-wheel steer Bobcat....in aws mode they are very surface friendly. Ed
770 is too big, and I have been looking for a solid A220 for a long time.
Turf tires wont be pretty there to soft Take this with a grain of salt I rarely run a skid steer they by nature are not easy on the ground the skid to steer but that makes them highly maneuverable with a little feness you can do ok Another thing to consider is the control style you want
If you are referring to one of the concrete barriers used on the highway you will need the biggest of skid steers to do that. They weigh +/- 5k lbs..
on the few occassions I have rented or borrowed one, they have all had hand/foot, which felt very foreign to me. I have always had a tractor so am used to that style of loader control. So if I buy new, I am def going for pilots.
Hi Billybonds, I work for Doggett Heavy Machinery, a John Deere dealer out of Houston and in my opinion, skid steers are one of the most universal pieces you can own. I'm not sure about other manufacturers, but Deere sells a steel track to go over the skid steer rubber tires that could help with your wear and tear issues. I know that you mentioned wanting a compact track loader, but this fix would make a skid steer more versatile.
FWIW, we had over 1000 hours on our first 770, and it did a lot of pushing and grading gravel, crawling around in the bush doing tree removal and root-raking, and at least a couple hundred hours of snow removal. Our tracks were getting down, but I'm certain they would have made 1500 hours. I know tracks will definitely cost more than tires, but incompetent operators are a large part of short track life. We use our machine hard, sometimes our operator runs it harder than I'd like to see, but the machine performs. Now, I also realize that we're not spinning around in circles on concrete or asphalt with a pallet of whatever on the forks, but from what you describe, I personally think tracks would be your best bet. Like AzIron says, finess is everything. You're not trying to do the job as fast as you can, so if it takes you a little time to maneuver around without tearing everything to pieces, so be it. In my opinion, the stability of tracks far outweigh any benefits of tires on any machine except one that lives exclusively on concrete or pavement. Also, your comments about moving pallets almost require you to have nothing less than a 2000 lb machine, and carrying anything around on tracks is better all day long than tires.
Skid steer or track loader are both going to tear up your ground, it's the nature of the beast. Since you're basically doing routine maintenance on finished surfaces you might consider a small articulated loader. Kubota 520 or similar.
With the weights you want to pick up and mostly working on improved surfaces, I would be looking at compact wheel loaders. Being in NY, it shouldn't be too hard to find one coming off a snow season lease.
Everyone has their opinions on what is best and generally speaking no one is wrong. I really like the CASE machines. They have worked well for me. I currently have a 2017 TR340 and 2018 SV340. Given what you listed for tasks, I would look for a radial lift machine under 75 hp. The sight lines are cleaner, your not loading trucks so the radial lift would provide the best option for you. Some things I personally like as options are high flow hydraulics, heated seat, ride control and EH hand controls. As far as CASE product line, I would look at something like a SR240. It has 2400 pounds of lift, under 75 hp which means no DEF to deal with. You can put 14X17.5 tires under it if you want. Get some demos on the machines closest to you, put them in the dirt and see what works the best.
Given the tasks at hand I would stay with the farm tractor & loader arrangement . I aint up on the new models but after looking at the New Holland Workmaster 35 rig would be inclined to go with something bigger . https://www.tractorhouse.com/listin.../manufacturer/new-holland/model/workmaster-35 New Holland 545 skip loader would fit in fine . You got the 4x4 , loader , PTO , lift arms . Tough rigs built off the old Ford 4000 platform . https://www.tractorhouse.com/listin...-to-99-hp/manufacturer/new-holland/model/545d Or just go with a Ford 4000 . LOL !
He's moving mulch/ bedding/ manure around in a horse farm, plowing a little snow on the driveway and trying not to tear up the riding arena. And you are recommending steel over the tire tracks? I don't know if your a salesman, but buddy, you better learn a little more about what you are selling. I don't think Over the tire steel tracks are the solution here. I think for the gooming of the riding arena, you aren't going to have anything do better- than the 3 point pull behind, on a small tractor, like you are already doing. A rubber tracked loader that will do your forklift duties with pallets and concrete blocks is going to have to be pretty good sized. I'm going to throw out a little something more outside the box- how about a small wheel loader? Something like a Cat 924 or the IT version. They make a smaller one than that even- I'm not sure on its model number. Visibility is great. Controls would be much like your tractor, steering wheel and loader joystick. Better lifting capacity than a tractor loader, and I'd recommend a quick attach for the front, so you could switch quick between a set of pallet forks and a bucket. The downside is going to be size, if you are trying to get into a free stall type building and clean stalls, it would be way too big. But if your just clearing outside fenced in paddocks, I think a small wheel loader wouldn't be a bad choice. You would sit up high like you do in a tractor, but it will turn shorter and be more manuverable. Probably the only other tight thing would be the gates, if you are all 8' gates, it might be tight for a 924. If you have really small areas to clean, a skid would zero turn and clean out corners. If you are driving between your farms, I'd lot rather road a wheel loader than a skid steer, or especially a rubber track loader, they are horrible rough to road any distance in on pavement. If you are loading the manure in dumpsters, a loader would be much nicer for that than a skid steer or compact track loader. Keep you away from the material a little, and be higher up for visibility. I do have question though- What's RCA? Recycled Crushed Asphalt?
I think it's recycled concrete aggregate.
I had the same thoughts about steel tracks over the tires. For a riding arena, a 3 pt. hitch is the only way to go. There are a multitude of arena drags, harrows, land planes, box blades and other attachments available for just about any task. I would look for an industrial loader/landscaper with a 3pt. hitch or possibly an AG tractor if it had a good loader that you could easily level the bucket with. Better loaders will have return to dig that automatically levels the bucket. They used to be a lot more common but the loader would lift more, drive a lot faster if needed, not tear things up as much as a skid steer and the 3 pt. would be the best for the arena. You could use a rear blade for fast driveway clearing as well. I think a tractor would be easier to maintain than a skid steer too. A skid steer is a super versatile machine but not for everything. Most are a PIA getting in and out of, especially if you're doing something like loading a truck and you have to be getting in and out a lot. Skid steers can be dangerous as and tip without much warning. I've tipped mine into the side of a dump truck a couple times loading wet clay. You have to really keep your wits about you when it happens. It didn't start to tip until I was just about high enough to clear the box. I also ran a larger skid steer and it tipped with a pallet of sod going down a very slight grade.
John Deere 204K wheel loader would work nicely for your application.
For you guys that are suggesting a loader tractor, any tractor that will have a loader that can lift 2500 lbs will be way to big and clumsy for the work he wants to do. Remember, he has said 8' gates. The only thing mentioned that might work as well, maybe even better than a skidsteer, is a compact wheel loader. A few guys around here have those instead of a skid and really like them. In my opinion, however, a tractor/loader combo, even an industrial one, is not the best option for this situation.
I also think a compact wheel loader could work better than a skid steer for what you are trying to do. A Cat 924 would be to big, but something like a 908 would be good. A compact wheel loader will lift more than a skid steer and probably do less damage to the ground. A 908 has more than twice the rated operating load of a 246 skid steer and is less than 7’ wide.
A compact wheel loader is great as long as it's not too muddy or too many slopes....most of the new compact wheel loaders can run all the skid steer attachments and most have a feature where you can set the throttle and and select your speed to run those attachments.
Funny story …… Remember the Old Man arguing with Grandad back in the late 1970's . Was time to upgrade on some equipment . Grandad kept going on about how it would not fit though the existing gates . The Old Man decided it was time for a wider gate ! LOL Moral of the story ….. Don't let the width of a gate determine your future .
No, but I grew up using a loader tractor for these type of chores. Not one as teeny-tiny as he's currently using, but an 830 Case isnt that much bigger. We never had a skidder, lots of neighbors did. When we finally got our first skidsteer, I thought I was on top of the world. The jobs I used to dread were all of the sudden a piece of cake. While you *can* grade and push snow with a loader tractor, it is so much easier with a machine designed for the task.
Had one of the first skidsteers around in the mid 80's. One dairy farmer told me, "I don't see what good that would be"......wasn't long, they had 2 of them. Ed
One of the jobs he wants to do is groom a riding arena. A 3 pt. attachment is the best and fastest method for this. A skid steer big enough to lift a 2500 lb pallet is a big skid steer. A compact wheel loader wouldn't work very good for arena grooming . Lots of tractor loaders are around 7' wide and some are narrower but will easily lift 2500lbs. A 1960's 830 Case with a loader compared to something like a Case 570M-XT is like apples and oranges. This is what I was thinking if you found one with a cab. https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/24789611/2006-case-570m-xt
Thanks for all the input. Wheel loader won’t work for me, my space it just too tight. It’s def a skid, wheels or tracked. Unloading the occasional pallet of something too heavy for my tractor is maybe 1-2 a month. 98% if the use is moving material/snow in tight areas. And I plan to keep my tractor, or sell it and buy an older gear tractor without loader to drag the arena. Or I save the 50-60k, put a plow on my truck, unload pallets too heavy for tractor by hand, and rent/borrow a skid when needed.
If your happy with the Workmaster 35 tractor keep it and find a used skid loader .
I don't think I'd spend 50-60k, like td25c says, find a used skid steer. If you want to, just find your local equipment rental place, and rent a wheeled skid steer for a month. Don't rent it for a day, that won't tell you anything. Rent it for a month, see how you like it. You could do the same thing with a tracked one the next month if your still thinking about one of those. Keep the tractor you have while you are renting the other stuff. Should cost you around $2-3,000 for a month rental. If you're serious about spending $50,000, that might be money well spent. There are a lot of really good used skid steers for $20,000.
Actually, I am not happy with it. I guess it does everything it is supposed to do, but I guess every compact tractor does everything minimally well. Its hydrostatic which makes maneuvering easy, but it can only pull the drag in "medium" gear, which is so slow. Turning radius sucks, and lift capacity sucks without the drag as a counter balance, which kills the maneuverability even more. Even with the counter balance, i am stuck to about 1500 lbs a couple feet off the floor. Without it, I cant even handle full bucket of rca. No forward hydraulics, so I can run a plow or grapple bucket. And there is no cab to keep me warm/cool and dry and out of the sun/dust. If I knew then what I know now, I would have purchased a bigger used gear tractor without a loader to pull the drag, and invested in a skid steer. Even now, my tractor is a 2015 with 300 hours, I can probably sell it for 16-18k, buy a good used tractor to drag with for 6-8k, and apply the 10k towards a skid. I'd love to find a pre-emission, low hour machine with pilot controls, heat/air, etc, but all I seem to see are much newer machines for almost new price or really old and high hour machines, and I dont know enough about this stuff to avoid a lemon. Also pilot controls seem very rare in the older machines, especially the Bobcats, which seem to be 90% of the used market around here.
Do you have money burning hole in your pocket that you want to 50 or 60K to put 100 hours a year looking after 4 acres? Pilot controls are just something more to go wrong and if they do more money to fix. Pilot controls are nice if you're running a machine 40 hours a week. 100 hours a year I wouldn't consider a necessity, same as air conditioning. How big is your is your arena drag and just how fast do you want to go? It just appears to me you're looking for way more machine(s) than you really need. It's like looking for a fully loaded 1 ton diesel dually to pull a 1500 pound utility trailer 4 times a year. Will it do it, yeah but is it really necessary, no. It's way overkill for the intended use. Reminds me of the infamous post on here a few years ago involving 2 mining shovels for something like 10 acres.
Is it necessary, no. Do I want to spend 50-60k, no. But this is my life, and we will most likely trade up to a bigger farm or more properties, and I will be spending the rest of my life doing this stuff, so I would like to make my life as easy and comfortable as possible. I'd love to find a 5 yr old machine with 1000-2000 hours with most/all of my wishlist for 25k, but they dont seem to exist in the used market, or I am not looking in the right place. I am not comfortable buying a 15 yr old machine with 3k+ hours without someone knowledgeable looking at it. Is there such a thing a getting a survey done like you would on a used boat? I probably waited a little late to do this, I am sure contractors are gobbling up the decent machine for snow season. Maybe I should revisit this in the spring and hopefully find the used machine that fits my needs after snow season?
Hopefully this post doesn't ruffle things up even more, but at the end of the day, you're the one paying for it, and if you want to spend 100k on a 299 and put 10 hours a year on it, that's your business. For what I do, the same could be said about the tires vs. tracks argument, but after having tracks, I would not take 10 tire machines if they were given to me and I had to use them. The productivity of tracks over tires on any surface other than asphalt or concrete is more than marginal. Leveling anything, carrying anything, not making ruts, not tearing the crap out of whatever you're working on, all these reasons will lean me towards tracks, even though they don't last like tires.
I see it the way Shimmy does but it's also one of those things that once you have it you wondered how you got by without it and end up using it more and more. I also would only get a tracked machine, if you treat a track machine with a little care the tracks will last more than 1000+ hours
A lot of people would prefer a 10 or 15 year old tractor that is all mechanical and not electronic. Just look at all guys with semi's that want older units that they can actually work on themselves if needed. I have a tractor that's over 50 years old and it's most dependable machine I own. I think a lot of that is due to its simplicity and lack of fluff. 3000 hours is just getting broken in for most equipment that has had reasonable maintenance. You can always pay someone to do an inspection of a machine. If you buy from a dealer, it could be contingent on a complete inspection report and/or maintenance records. A lot of larger equipment dealers have a complete inspection report on their used units. https://www.brandt.ca/Products/Used-Equipment/Details?unit=0U275799
A friend is looking at a track machine. I laughed, told him straight up him & his brother better change their driving habits as they are the kings of counter rotate..... Ed
Whenever I get stumped with a problem end up wondering what " Hoss & Little Joe " would do in the situation ? Hoss … " it's your turn to muck out the horse stable " . Then Hoss comes up with an idea … No need to muck out the stall anymore little brother . LOL!
They obviously couldn't care less about making a mess? They'll just make a little worse of a mess with tracks. Maybe they might figure it out after having to switch from high to low everytime they try to spin around, tracked skidders don't much care to counter-rotate in high on dry ground, lol.
Interesting thread, so I'll weigh in with my opinion... Back in 2012 I bought a new NH L220 SSL, & put rubber OTT's on it for flotation & traction, all in the hopes that it would allow my 1990 Ford 1320 4wd FEL to "rest" a little. Turns out my 1320 is STILL my machine of choice, except for plowing snow, where the L220 is a joy, with a heated cab!! The big problem with the L220 is that it is too troublesome to get in/out often when I'm working by myself, which I always am. The 2nd problem is that the L220, even with OTT's, is rough on turf....as bad & maybe worse than my 9 ton excavator with 24-in wide steel tracks!! And the L220 is not great in mud because it doesn't have enough ground clearance. So...If you're concerned about ground disturbance, don't get a SSL or a CTL. By their nature they are rough on ground. Possibly the only exception would be an ASV unit which has the suspended track system (also, a lot of ground clearance). The Cat MTL's, which also have the ASV suspended track system, don't do as well as the ASV's, because they lack the same weight distribution (& have much less ground clearance). If you're still stuck on a SSL/CTL, & cab access is very important, then consider the side-entry JCB units (or Volvo's made by JCB). Their cab room, visibility, & ease of entry/exit is unsurpassed in the skid competition. But in my opinion, if you want minimal ground disturbance, great ground clearance, cab spaciousness & ease of entry/exit, plus superior lift capacity, then your choice should be a compact wheel loader. In the common articulated type, Cat has it's smallest, the 903D (9,400 lbs), or the next size up the 906M (12,481 lbs) which might be too big.. Wacker Neuson has its smallest, the WL32 (7,500 lbs), plus a range of larger units. The WL38 (9,300 LBS) is one I'd be interested in. Gehl has it's smallest, currently the 650 (9,500 lbs), with some smaller units reportedly due out next year. All of these units (except the Cat 903) are capable of a top speed of 18 or more mph. And the Wacker & Gehl units have rear hitches available, particularly receiver hitches, as well as rear electric & hydraulic options. Go with a receiver hitch, insert a ball mount (without the ball), & now you have a draw bar to hook a drag to. If the small loader size & articulating action is not maneuverable enough, then look at the Wacker Neuson AWS 5055 (7,940 lbs), which has all-wheel-steer instead of an articulated center. And still has the 18+ mph top speed & the same rear hitch, electric, & hydraulic options as the others. If ultra-maneuverability is a must, then look at a REALLY small wheel loader, like an articulated Avant, but you give up the larger lift capacity of the units above. All of the compact loader units above have a universal skid steer quick attach on the loader arms, so bucket & fork attachments are easy to get & change. And if you really want to go nuts, at least Wacker Neuson has some units that have telescoping arms that offer much longer/higher reach of doing things like stacking hay. Of course there is JCB's teleskid as well, but it's still a SSL or CTL. The only disadvantage of a compact wheel loader that I can see is the overall height of the cab, if you're working in old barns. The wheel loader cabs are all in the 7.5 to 8 ft range, whereas SSL-CTL's are about a foot shorter, in the 6.5 to 7 ft range.
I appreciate your reply. Those single arm JCB' kinda scare me, im sure its only in my mind, but i feel like the single arm would be prone to getting twisted over time. I've thought long and hard about everyones advice here, and as of now, I have decided to lower my standards a bit and patiently wait for the right, used machine cross my path. Something pre-emmision(i think 2013 or older?), with decent hours, heat, and power bobtach......a/c and pilots will be less concern as I understand the argument that mechanical control are more reliable and do I really need a/c for limitted summer use? And if I do get snow before something comes a long, I will just suffer through another winter of doing it with the tractor bucket. I was thinking of buying a quick attach plow for the tractor, but a subcontact cant handle a heavy duty plow made for my future SSL/CTL, and a plow made for a subcompact tractor will get torn up by a SSL/CTL.
BillyBonds....I think your concern about twisting the single arm on a JCB is unfounded...particularly because you won't be using it for heavy duty excavation. For your type of general use around a farm I wouldn't worry. That said, I hear you about your emissions concerns. There are some real horror stories going around, but you can try to minimize...but not eliminate...some of the problems by staying under 75 hp. All of the compact wheel loaders I mentioned are under that. But a 2013 or older (Tier 3) would still be easier to work on & run. My current NH L220 SSL is Tier 3. I think the OEM's still have some to go before they "perfect" any Tier 4 final build. Speaking of hp, my old & faith full Ford 1320 CUT/FEL is only 20 hp!! Sometimes I regret not getting one size larger, the 1520, for a little more hp, although the frame & loader would have been the same. What is the hp of your NH Workmaster 35?? I was cold for years plowing snow with a bucket on my 1320, but I'm old (72), you're still young & can stand some more freezing....Besides, climate change promises warmer & wetter winters (think more ice & less snow) in the northeast.