It's getting harder and harder for me to trust people. I had a guy come over to my house to talk to me about installing solar. here in Colorado, that actually makes good sense. I sat through this shpeel, and he sent a guy out to inspect my roof, and my power and all that a few days later. He then sent me the report that said aside from from perlin support they need to install, I'm ready to go. I told him my roof is over 15 years old, how does it make sense to install new solar panels on an old roof like that? He said my roof looked fine, and as soon as I make that payment, the project will take off. By the way, when his guy came out to "inspect my roof" there was 3" of snow on it. I said hold your horses, I need a second opinion. I called a roofer and talked about it. He said if your roof is over 5 years old, you need to consider replacing it when doing solar because removing the solar panels adds 5-8 grand to the job, so you don't want to pay that more than you have to. That makes sense to me, so I scheduled his guy to come out. His guy said (of course) I should install a new roof, and by the way, they do solar too, and can offer a package deal, which also sounds good to me. I didn't buy the solar guy's BS because all he wanted was my check. I wanted someone to tell me my roof sucks and needs to be replaced. I got that, and I don't believe his BS either for the same reasons. Man oh man I'm getting grouchy, and I'm just 52. Life is going to be fun for my wife when I'm 80.
I haven't trusted salesmen since my first encounter with one, a used car salesman when I was about 19 . . . Salesmen are about the same speed as politicians . . .
I get pissed when I pay hard earned money thinking a pro can do it better only for a half ass job that I could have done better.
Well I'm going to tell you straight up that if you put solar on a roof in Colorado that's not a standing seam metal roof. You get what you deserve. Quit dinking around. Put standing seam metal on there, put the S5! Clips on there and bolt your solar to your roof without any holes drilled whatsoever. 50 years later when the paint begins to fade on that roof, the next guy can worry about it.
LOL I can see you're just as angry as me.
The useful life of your solar panels will be around 10 years. After this time, you'll want to upgrade them for efficiency's sake anyway. If your roof will last another 10 years, you know your answer.
Welcome to the grumpy old guys club. I'm 60 and it isn't getting better, only worse every day. Also, you do know how to tell when a salesman is lying? When his lips are moving...
I built a new house 2 years ago and had those solar guys out here before the occupancy permit. 2 said 40k and one said it wouldn’t be any good. Looked into doing it myself and Eversource told me no net metering if I did that, even if it was inspected. ROI would have been 22 years, no thanks. Not quite sure how other people are doing it. It’s like nobody is smart enough to figure out ROI. Of course, I expect everyone’s electricity to go up. Will see what happens in November.
Salesmen Politicians Lawyers Anyone under XXXX age....
I can DIY the solar at the new house and net meter. @HarleyHappy . Get an agreement, pull a permit, get er done is what I have to do. First step is the net metering agreement with PUD.
DON'T put solar on your roof unless you plan on climbing up there to knock snow off of them, would be useless most of the winter if you did. At 52 years old putting solar on a new metal roof that will last you 50 years, yet the solar degrades at about 1% per a year in half the years panels wouldn't put out much in 25 years making them almost useless requiring to drill more holes in your roof in your 70's for more panels. If you are already hooked up to power don't waste your money, ROI (return on investment) will never net you what you spent on the system. Two reasons one needs to go solar, 1. cause it's cost prohibitive to get power lines to you and 2. cause you want to feel better about your greed with power so you need to offset that $300 bill when lifestyle change can offset it.
Imagine being the solar guy. No way the first guy wanted to tell you to get a roof. He might loose the job due to funds. Second guy told you what you wanted to hear. Whether he is right or not only YOU can decide. In Georgia every house that has a septic system must have an environmental inspection before a permit will be issued to build an accessory building. The look on someone's face when they now need a 10k septic system before they can get a new 2 car garage. If it makes you feel better, I can suggest to go ahead and get a new roof.
You can do what I've done in the past. Get a couple of ridiculous quotes then ask your wife if she will have relations with one of them so you can save 50%. Just be ready to duck fast or you may end up in the ER.
And if she says yes ? Joe H
Looked into Solar as we built new, wanted on a Frame Work On Grade where could get at it, Two Contractors stated HAD to go on roof, told them to pack out. Last one to hand over a quote stated was smart to stand mount as could aim better than building the house for aim. He noted with a Ground Source and all the LED lighting and low impact electrical would be a more modest Net Metering out recovery, the panels would NOT pay off in my lifetime and as obsolete in under five could be sitting on a Hazmat Hauloff when not so much IF they failed. Cost for supplemental was over $28k in 2014, at the modest level of power expense here, just at 24 years to recover, that said, lifespan as noted is 10-15 even as "Guaranteed" for Life, mainly of the sales company that evolve and disappear as quickly. Engineer at work before retired noted contain Cadmium, Lead and Arsenic, NON Landfill Disposable. No known recyclers around the state. 4mw Scottsbluff NE site was Hail Damaged, site is now considered a HAZMAT Cleanup site as Glass is on grade, and damaged cells shot heavy metal and arsenic particulates all across the site. CANNOT ship the damaged cells off site except as Permit Only HZMT, so for time being are stored in CONEX Containers on site. System owner is trying to cover costs not paid by insurer as to replacing the system.
This was mild, but here is why you don't put solar on the roof. This is one of my three sets of racks. Still feeling green? I do this after every snow storm, sometimes twice a day.
At least your system is a Stand Alone, 99% of the units being installed for Homeowners are Supplemental ONLY and if Grid drops they cease production. EXTRA Expense for a Stand Alone to power a Home when Grid fails. Batteries, Rectifiers for Constant consistent Voltage, Inverters and wave form Smoothing capacitor banks, Sync system when grid comes back, ALL very Pricey.
Many of us don't get or keep any snow. Colorado can be problematic though. Shhhh, solar panels are sleeping.
Isn't the only way solar really makes financial sense is if it is government subsidised?
Absolutely, no way anyone pays the full price unless they're stuck out in the boonies like Spud. Like electric cars, without the subsidy no buyers. And even the subsidy isn't enough as it turns out. Joe H
It would cost $100k to get power here, I paid about $15k so far in what I got. Yes will need batteries in 10 to 15 years, but take your electric bill and times it by 120 and see if you beat $2500 for the battery. Will have to buy the whole set up again in 20 to 25 years which puts me around 65 years old, I doubt in 25 years from then I will or wife will be around. Reevaluate our situation around 70's on what is next of whether to buy another system or not. Yes I hear about widows in the woods, but how many of them had a husband who built up a place worth selling to sell out and move on in town. Most can't make it here anyways as is with grid power much less solar in their 30's, I foresee wife not doing it if she outlives me in her 70's.
At my location, power is $0.078/KWH 10,000 KWH = $780 If I put a 9.9KW array up at my location, the PVwatts calculator yields 10,019 KWH It's hard to pay for a 9.9KW array at only $780 a year. You'd want it to pay off in 10 years, and I can't get it together for $7800 on the roof. 22 panels = $4400 and 22 Enphase microinverters =$4400 The big issue is the rapid shutdown requirements per ICC, it adds another layer of hardware and cost. A firefighter needs to be able to shut down the array with the press of a button on the side of the house. Those microinverters have that ability. This has to happen at the solar module level, not at the inverter in the basement, etc.
Look for this and flip the red handle, all is disconnect from the array.
that works for you. when the array is on the roof, firefighters need to shut it down at the solar panels. Roof mounts suck that way. Ground mounts are much less BS, but I don't want to look at my panels
That can be mounted anywhere. What goes in comes out through it through a series of breakers with however many strings you have. There is multiple configurations and is rated for outdoors.
that's not an RSD system for a roof mount according to the building codes. The wires from the panels can zap you anywhere, when the building is on fire. RSD has to happen at the solar panel itself. They put it in the National Electrical Code (NEC). It is a royal pain in the arse. The microinverters can do it. If a person wants a string inverter, then they need to put a device at each panel to shut it down.
Within 1' of the array boundary per NEC, Section 690.12(B) and not at each panel.
Up on the roof is not a "readily accessible location." They want it mounted the same as the house power disconnect, where they can walk up to it. Chapter 1, definitions:
Then the NEC Section 690.12(B)is nullified since it's impossible to just walk up to it and then it wouldn't need to be shut down at the solar panels since it is guarded by elevation Thus then NEC, Section 690.12(B) from 2020 reverts back to the 2017 NEC's of within 10' of the array boundary to be possible Just as a shut down at each panel would go against rapid shutdown. Max was 6 shut downs in 2014 NEC's which then in 2017 reverted to 1.
An interesting discussion…..always something to learn here at HEF. The disconnect for each panel at the source makes sense from a firefighter perspective and they write the standards ( NFPA) that go into the NEC/CEC.
Technically when you have panels in series is as such of having batteries in series, take negative or positive off and the circuit is disconnected. I have 9 panels in series, if I need to make any major adjustments I take one line off and the array is dead.
Putting solar panels on your shop or dwelling roof is asking for a fire. Period. Also if a person had a roof plastered with them how can the fire department do their job? Only way to have those stinking things is an array in the yard some place. There are plenty of these on the net.
Idiots trying to get much as power as possible without dabbing into high voltage will cause problems such as this. My panels capable of pushing 600 plus VDC is more safe on a roof than (which I wouldn't want them there based on maintenance) system half it's voltage pushing twice as much amperage. If you don't understand this and trying to put panels on your roof then you will be the next news story of such along with other variables.
You save MONEYYYY!
Because of the tax breaks, it is subsidized. For now anyway.
It's definitely happening. No issues mounting to a shingle roof, no issues for a firefighter . Half the homes on my block have em. With the $6-7K tax incentives, ROI is 4 years, just from that. Entire system is guaranteed for 20, even the installation. If my system goes down or gets covered by snow, I feed from the grid. That's not going to happen very often though. Around here, winters are mild. Whatever power I don't use, feeds the grid, and I get paid. That's not going to be much either though. My "pay" there is just from saving $1K a year on power bills. $22K for the whole solar shebang. The roof is a different story. Roofer says my roof was badly damaged from a hail storm we had last spring. He's going to send me a report, and I'm sending that to my insurance guy. Maybe I can get them to throw down on the roof. Time will tell.
If you think your ROI is going to be 4 years with only paying 1k in electricity a year, I got a bridge to sell you. You still have an electric bill, just not KW, which you probably still will depending on size and usage. I looked into it quite hard and was looking at 22 to 24 panels and being an electrician, I could do it myself and cost was 16.5k within reason. The subsidy does help but I don’t believe the numbers are there for a normal usage house. The ROI gets a little better with an electric vehicle and with split units, electric stoves and such.
Damn I needed that laugh this morning, thanks. Sheridan CO which is Denver that gets more snow than here. Yeah that ROI is going to be a long lost memory in a distance based on multiple factors, but it's a damn good laugh.
It is all about net metering and the summer harvest anyway.
The last notice I received from the electric company was for an “emergency” meeting.. about what.?? TO LOWER THE RATE AT WHICH PEOPLE WITH SOLAR GET PAID BACK.!! Coming to a town near you.!!lol
Wait for when the notice comes in of having to pay the electric company for line maintenance since they aren't getting enough revenue since so many jumped on solar.
can you get the rates you are paying and the solar payback numbers, please?
Current metering at least here is retail into your usage, wholesale back out so if do manage to generate same out as in only gonna see 1/2 of money return, our rates here are right at .07 wholesale and .15-.17 retail. The other component of the equation that I have heard other states grid owners are doing is charging Line and Equipment fees for that wholesale output, another knock in the return. Next up is absolutely NO Negative figure as to Use vs Generate, gets to zero will not pass Go, the Utilities will not ever accept paying more for net out meter than consumed meter.
Let’s face it, we are at the electric companies mercy. My wife joined some board that locked our KW cost in at 13 cents but then Eversouce just doubled our rates and said this June they are going to double them again. The solar idea works but they are doubling their line charges, so nothing to do with KW rates. Again, we will see in November where we are at, for the future. No need to get political but elections matter. If we get this green idea in check, we can proceed with our head and our heart, till then, keep your powder dry.
ours is 1 to 1. you bank until March 1 and the meter resets. If you made excess of your needs and have a $0 bill, you lose the excess at march 1 and it starts over. My plan is to gather at least 6 months of usage data once we move in, and make an informed decision. You can't just look at the rates and dollars and do a simple division. If it is $12K, for example, you need to put that $12K into theoretical investments and look at the opportunity cost too. It is not just $12K.
To flesh that out, take 12000 and put it in a compounding interest calculator. 12K + 5% will be ~20K in 10 years. This skews that payoff. The only big variable is the KWH rate and what it does. I have no crystal ball for that.
With the closing of ‘fossil’ stations watch KW costs to climb as suppliers provide to distributing utilities or distributing companies pull it out of Their shorts to build stations of some type to supply their own again. The regional supplying plants will define Supply/Demand, it will come down to those clients willing to pay the price where the ones that won’t or will not accept lock in contracts will get switched Off. We are about to see that full on here. My old employment facility made 1190-1200mw/hr relatively steady state, the company has three other major facilities 1100mw at Rush Island, 880mw at Sioux, 2300 at Labadie then sporadic CNG Combustion Turbine sites. Rush to close this year, Labadie 3&4 early next year, Sioux as their ash storage ponds top out and they run out of disposal room. So sometime in next 2-3 years losing roughly 3100mw supply where peak demand in Summer is over 10,000-12,000. Even with energy savings equipment, supplemental systems adds and large consumer mechanisms closing that is not decreasing. Their plan is to buy open market where again, HOWEVER, every state surrounding MO is in same concerning shape. IL retired over 5000mw over last two years, KS some 2500, AR shuttered 2000 and TN/KY closer to 6000. So far IA and NE are holding their own. Our kwh price is as noted relative to demand periods of time $.15- .17kwh, that is noted may cross $.20 by June and next year no one has a clue. No new plants being constructed CTG or Nuke or CNG Boiler. Wind and solar cannot be scaled as big as are to lose realistically.
6-7K tax rebates for 4 years is the ROI at this moment. No energy company is going to buy back energy, I don't believe I ever said that. If I did, it was in error. Excel Energy will this point, give you a credit based on KWH and time of day and time of year. That rate changes when the wind blows, so including that in calculations is a waste of time. Even without the tax incentves, ROI comes back. I pay 12K a year to power my house. If the solar covers 80%, which it's warrantied to do (its actually 92%), my annual power budget now drops to about $2K. That leaves me with $10K I can **** into the wind, or invest in other ways. But even if I just let that 10K sit and earn nothing, that's ROI in a little over 2 years, even without any tax breaks, no money from the power company, just saving what I didn't spend on keeping the lights on.
and these tax rebates come from the printing press and have no bearing on what you pay a year in taxes or why inflation is rampant.... Causality...
Oof. I tried to fix that last post right away, but it wouldn't let me. In any case, the economics of solar is sound and it's happening. Y'all have a nice weekend.
That's 0, if you have excess and they give you 0 that's a 0 on net metering. You do save a bunch of turning the meter back to zero.
That's not how it works. I get to run the meter backwards in the summer. They reset it at March 1.
So when it's time to reset and your meter says -1000, what do you get?
Absolutely nothing! That's on you to size your system properly. That's why I'd run it for a year before I went and bought any solar panels if I ever did buy any.
You don't get 1 to 1 then, you get 0
You've got some major math problems there. If I produce 10,000 kW hours from March to March and I used 10,000 kW hours, it's one to one I put in a watt I take out a watt. The only time I lose power is if I make more power than I can use and that would be on me.
Everyone gets 1 to 1 to do n it back to zero, the dollar amount of spinning it negative it what the topic is about, in which case you get 0. Most people get a small amount like 0.03 kw/hr
This is so true and they keep coming back!!!! My standard answer for them now is "I don't know" They say but you must know about this ? Nope not going go through that again.
You guys are convincing me to be off the grid. I'm hooking up a generator to my wife's exercise bike.
Solar = Scam, for the most part
With my workshop as a central management structure could possibly set up a stand alone system there. Just cannot see the over $30k to do that. Would still need a grid tie to sell off the surplus as created and supplement the stand alone system during really bad storm periods or outages as have to swap batteries out or perform maintenance on a wind turbine or solar array. Present time grid power is too cheap and the stand alone systems too expensive to validate as do not see myself capable in 10-15 years to perform own maintenance or to recover costs before 20-25.
Im waiting for a portable fusion reactor to come on the market with 99% subsidized purchase price.
It needs to be cost prohibitive like @Spud_Monkey to bring the grid in.
I gather up here it is now about $45k Can. to bring in 3 spans of primary single phase voltage( 300 yards). That makes solar an option for properties that are just off the grid.
Glad I don't live where some of you do,3 spans single phase 4 poles 0 charge.
I haven’t done a primary service and only have done some secondary services. Last one I did was a repair to a service, meter had melted down. Hydro would only come about 50 feet into the property across a road. Home owner had to install a new pole and run the rest of the way. The original span was about 125 feet across the property to a meter on a pole that had burned up. Times are changing
When we t to build here had built the barn and ran power there. That pole 200’ behind barn. Cost only for the meter initially and base service fee since as not used enough ke there for direct use charges, even with lighting and the new well. As got to the house were a reliable customer and did not charge to run the line 2 spans up the hill, just an upgrade charge for a 1000a service base/meter for the shop and house. Can still add an additional service drop if choose to, just no need. Avg across a year monthly charge for house and shop heat and cool on house and the 18’wide side of shop $210/month If have to go on resistance heat in house can increase to $650-740/mo, makes me appreciate the ground source unit even more.
If i lived in an area that had solar i would go door to door and see what i could find out.
My electric averages around 140 bucks a month. I realize it will go up but solar is a no go, for now. Will I regret that decision, with the ROI being about when I’m 80, me thinks not. The tax subsidies just begets more inflation that doesn’t really help us. Kinda like my niece, who just had 20k taken off here 60k student loan. He he, she just went and bought a new car, some people just don’t learn.