I've watched some videos of these things running, and I'm convinced I could buy this single machine to handle probably 10 different projects on my property. Anyway: - 963 A 21z - 16k hours - cab - less than 200 hours on rebuilt engine - new exhaust pipe, turbo, hoses - pins just turned and undercarriage 'rebuilt' ... tracks look a little tight - described as 'excellent' condition (....) owner has spent $12.8k over the last few years fixing it up. owner had it listed for $26k but has dropped the price significantly (says he just wants to be done with it). the guy sounded like a real nice legit guy on the phone. so if there are red flags here, I'm not seeing them. and I plan to do some reading to figure out how to check the machine over. BUT I'm just a little uneasy about this whole category of machine being a money pit. I can handle it being thirsty. I can handle a little downtime. I'm looking to work on projects with this thing-- I don't want _it_ to be the project! is this the catch with these old crawlers? what are the chances I can get 200 worry-free hours from this thing? What besides engine and undercarriage wears with high hours? do these machines get 'loose' like excavators? Should I go down a size (953/943) and look for a newer machine and maybe spend a bit more? Thanks!
To answer your last question first, exactly what sort of "projects" is it that you need to do..? Knowing the work involved would make it easier to recommend what size/type of machine would be best.
Thats not high hours as with any big iron you never know how long it will run before a big bill pops up
Projects-- - renovating 0.65acre pond (this is the biggie): --- clearing acre or so of trees on dam and banks with stump removal --- moving ~200yds of fill about 200ft onto back of dam --- moving who knows how much pond muck (200yds?) various places probably 200ft away --- expanding 0.15 acres 6 feet deep --- grading dam and banks ... roughly - clearing and cutting for driveway 1/4 mile - digging basement - general clearing, but property is only 10acres, so nothing crazy - demolishing and burying and few outbuildings (I have many more) I think going down to a smaller machine would be fine productivity-wise. At the hours/etc I'm looking at the 963s, 953s, and 943s (rare) seem to be priced about the same. For something newer the prices seem to diverge a lot between the models. That's why if I'm planning on spending 20k-30k I'd likely be looking at a 953. And the other equipment option seems to be a dozer, excavator, and site dump truck. I'm not sure how I'd get away with anything less than all three and gain any efficiency over just the loader. I suppose this combination would probably be twice (at least) as productive, but I'd probably need my dad to help me run so I could be running at least two at a time. And it would be much more expensive even factoring fuel. And I've have more old stuff to break down. I can absorb the bills ... and scrap the thing if it gets too nasty ... I would just would like to feel like the odds are in my favor of not getting ones that are disproportional to the value I'm getting out of the machine. So say I spend $15k on the machine and plan on $5k for repairs to run it 500hours. Does that sound reasonable?
Or really more likely run it 100-200 hours instead of the 500 above. (can you edit posts here?)
Your best way to check it out would be to work it good for a morning. If the HPCU, a very spendy repair, is in trouble it will over heat and vent out(stop moving until shifting through park). If the owner will let you work it you are safe, if not there is a lot you may miss on the Drive Train. Later Bob
Take an oil sample on the hydrostatic. That's the one you should be worried about, if all comes back good, then you're laughing. Think of the cost it would be to bring someone in to do it. Then you have nothing to show for it, if you want to buy it, use it, hopefully not total it. Then you can sell the machine after your done.
Have you looked at any 955's? I'm sure others on here would disagree but I'm just not a fan of high hour older hydrastat machines. A 955 would do everything you are looking for less money at purchase and a lot cheaper to repair if something in the transmission went south. In my opinion the only thing your gaining with a 963 is speed. If your willing to take a little longer to get the job done a 955 might be something to look at.
The guy sold it the day before I was going to look at it. However, I'm still in the market for this type of machine, so all information here was very useful! My ideal machine is probably an early 1990s 953B LGP with cab and ~4000 hours. I'm seeing these for high $20k's, and I'm looking for one cheaper than that. But either a 953 or 963 in good shape with >=20" tracks would do it. Cab or no cab? My feelings are that a cab just protects the operators station a lot better than just the open ROPS ... mainly just from the weather. Is this a valid consideration? I just hear a lot of good things about 953/963s with regard to operation/productivity as opposed to the older models.
I don't think you'll find an older 2yd+ track loader with only 4000 hours. If you did find one, the price is likely to be a lot higher than your budget. You might find something like a 931B/C with lower hours but most people don't buy a 2yd+ machine to sit around. Early 953's needed more frequent engine overhauls and if a hydrostat goes out, it is $$$$.
IMHO the trade-off in this particular case is between machine speed and cost of repair. A 953 of any vintage will be far faster and move more dirt in a given time than a 955, but if anything in the hydrostatic system lets go you are talking megabucks PLUS a lack of people who really know how to fix them. Here on HEF I can only think of 2 or 3 of the regular posters who over time have given me enough confidence that they could be trusted to correctly rebuild a hydrostat. On the other hand a 955 will be a slow plodder, do less work in a given time, but as proved by any number of owners on HEF, can be fixed cheaply with no more than a decent set of wrenches. If the OP is planning to fix the machine himself I'd go with something more amenable to being fixed right from the off.
With regard to the cab vs open ROPS, one thing to think about for the use you intend, is the possibility of breaking the glass when pushing down trees and pushing trees around that you have already knocked down. I have a mid 80's 953 and had the windshield blown out of the frame and into my lap while clearing a road on top of the mountain at my camp. A small tree (only about 4 inches in diameter) that was was mixed in with some other brush that i was pushing got caught between two trees that were still standing and popped up over the bucket and hit the windshield. At $500 to $700 for a replacement, I don't have a windshield anymore, especially in light of the fact that on any given day some vandal could come and break the rest of the glass out of the thing while I'm not there. Some sort of limb risers or guard would have helped, but my machine doesn't have those, at least not yet.
Thanks for the advice guys! I do think open rops is more suitable after hearing about the glass. Several I have seen were missing glass ... And I'm sure mine would be shortly. Here's one I think I'm getting: 953A, 11k hours, 100 hours on reman engine, UC looks good I took advice, and I ran it around as hard as I could for quite a while, and it seemed really strong. No indications of transmission issues. It was a little muddy, but it would dig hard and tracks would spin when I buried it. Hydraulics very strong. https://vimeo.com/129852442 The muffler is shot, but those are cheap. My cousin pointed out (from listening to the video) that the engine has a louder knocking/clicking/noise than usual. Does it sound like an exhaust leak? Due to the muffler? Or something worth investigating?
Could be and get on that muffler leak right away. If the flex pipe up to the muffler is leaking the exh will be blown through the rad and HPCU oil cooler heating the oil. Later Bob
As I listened to the audio in the vids I heard what I consider as fuel noise not so much a hard part knock, could be a poor nozzle or a pump injector assembly starting to go down, could take a long time as my old Allis has been doing that for three years now. Could also be a effect of ULSD fuel, poor burn old engines do not accommodate it very well. Oh and contrary to beliefs of others, the fuel we get that has red dye in it is not high sulfur, it is the same fuel as highway use just dye added when they fill your holding tank. I have delivered the stuff and have been with the MFA delivery guy when he fill the tanks around the farm, same tanker fills highway clear fuel and off highway dyed fuel.
I,d repair the exhaust problen 1st then before doing anything else find where the noise is comming from asap. I would not work it for sure till its fixed. As a last resort let cat diagnose the problem. With recient engine work done its hard telling what the problem is but running it could result in big $$$$$$$$$
I have the loader now. It turns out the muffler is actually fine. The rusted out part is the muffler heat shield (you can see in video), and I've ordered a replacement. I checked the flex hoses and they seem fine also. The rain cap on the muffler has disintegrated. That seems potentially bad. Water in the turbo? Would it have made it into the exhaust manifold? I've ordered a new rain cap. I need an entirely new seat assembly. The engine is a reman from 2013 with 100 hours. It starts right up on the first crank. The oil looks good. I'm going to try to find a mechanic to look at it in Raleigh, NC. I was planning on dropping by a couple of construction sites with old equipment and asking for a referral. Here is a video of the engine noises: https://vimeo.com/130882861 I'm wondering what's normal vs abnormal. The noise it makes right when it revs is the same noise it makes when it goes under load. Is this the noise I need to be worried about? It really seems like it's coming from the exhaust manifold area, but I couldn't feel any exhaust coming out anywhere. It looks easy to pull the turbo and exhaust manifold if I determine that to be the issue. Or does everything sound fine? And the little tube to this was severed. And the electrical connections to it were disconnected. Any idea what this is?: Thanks!
The starting fluid tube is broken. For noise check the fan belts, fan is big and tend to slip when engine changes speed. Later Bob
I second Bob on Fan. its also I good idea to loosen fan belts and check play in fan bearings they sure make a mess if they come apart
Did you guys watch the video? The sound I'm concerned about is the "throaty" sound as the engine is reved up starting at 0:12 in the video. Or is there a different sound at another part of the video I need to be worried about? I will play with the fan belts, but I need to know what I'm aiming for! And I guess I'll just label and leave that starting fluid disconnected. I'm guessing it's supposed to be actuated when I depress the button next to the ignition switch. I don't think I'll need it for a while.
It does sound a little uneven when you give it a rev. Try loosening each injector line at the pump, in turn to see if you can pin it down to any one cylinder which doesn't make a difference to the noise. Beware of the fuel which will pump out though. Wrap a rag around the union and don't let high pressure fuel spray against your skin. Are you sure you don't have a leak at an exhaust manifold gasket? Try holding a piece of white paper, business card etc. near each joint to confirm.
That throaty sound is a diesel engine under load as the fuel opens up. Later Bob
Sounds like the turbo exhaust elbow , were it fits to the turbo. Wrap some aluminum foil around it to see if it changes sound.
That line off the starting fluid goes to the intake manifold and if your not going to use either to start it in cold weather you need to disscontect it from the engine and plug the engine hole,if you dont you,ll loose turbo boost.
Turbo Exhaust Elbow I need to replace or repair that elbow on my 953A as it has a hole in it. Do you know of any good aftermarket options or if I take it off can I weld some metal into it to patch it up. I seem to remember when I looked it up before that was like a $400 plus part just for that elbow. I'm just looking for a lower cost way to repair. Thanks. Tim
How big and where is the hole? It has a drain hole in it. Later Bob
cut the turbo mounting flange off, then get a universal 90 degree elbo and weld the flange to it...
That's a clean, straight A model - congrats. Good friend of mine has a 953B that burnt. He was pushing up a burn pile, caught an ember in the front and burned the front and cab of the machine. Insurance paid and he had it repaired - about $20K but that didn't included the hystat. He's been running it for 3 years now and hasn't had one issue with the hystat. He and I were both concerned of potential damage to the hystat but so far so good. I have a 953C BBX with 4600 hours and his 953B with who knows how many hours is a stronger machine than mine, although mine does have A/C.
Bob actually if I remember right it has a couple of holes. They are in the middle of the radius of the elbow. The loader is up at camp but I'll try to get a pic when I can. Thanks for the reply.
That sounds like a good option, I hadn't thought of that. Have you done that to one already?
Mechanic says my noise is valve lash. Says it always happens with remans and valves need adjusting after 50 hours. Otherwise he says everything looks great. I'll post a video after he does the valves.
So, he started on the valves and realized the lash was all very close to spec. (He didn't charge me) He thinks there are two noises. First rattle/knock is from too much side to side play in the wrist pin on #1 cylinder. He says this is just an annoyance and won't affect engine life. And the exhaust noise is due to carbon buildup on the valves and them being poorly seated. He says this will go away once I run it a bit. I can't say I'm super confident to start running this thing hard. I may try to do a little work with it though just to see how it goes.
Not necessarily this engine model but wrist pin problems usually end up as an air-conditioned cylinder block that you can see right through the holes on both sides. Just my 2c. The fact he said the noise was valve lash then found the lash was within spec so came up with the idea of a wrist pin + carbon buildup on the valves (what evidence did he give for that..? I guess he doesn't have X-ray vision) leads me to believe he's making it up as he goes along. I may be wrong in that.
Must have better hearing than me, to be sure it is #1! And if he is right and the wrist pin has too much "side play" what is going to happen when the wrist pin retainer fails? Like Nige says "air-conditioned block"
this supposed mechanic is not skilled imo. I,d get a cat mech. out asap and not run it until he diagnoses the problem 4 sure. wrist pins are held in by clips and the pins cant move if any just thous. of a inch. if it was mine I,d open the engine up till I found the prob. jmo
Not sure if I'm hearing the noise the OP is talking about but the one I'm hearing is each time the engine is reved up sounds like an exhaust leak, like a bad exhaust gasket, loose manifold or some problem in the muffler. Did I miss it has the problem with the air cleaner vacuum line / muffler get fixed?
I just talked with the guy who rebuilt it after he looked at the videos. He said he wouldn't run it 10 feet making noises like that. He thought the noises were coming from the valve train. I'm not convinced the mechanic out there did anything at all when he came out to adjust the valves. I've looked at the ROPS bolts (for tilting the cab) and they don't look like they've been removed. Same with valve cover bolts. And it seems like any way for him to get to the valves to measure clearances would have taken a couple hours at least ... for which he would have charged me. I've taken most advice and checked for exhaust leaks pretty good. (though a variety of means) ... best method was to stick a shop vac in through the muffler and light a cigar. There was a little bit of leak around both ends of the flex pipe connections, but I really don't think that is anything out of the ordinary (butt joints are inherently leaky) and certainly isn't contributing to the noise. I couldn't find any other leaks. I haven't disconnected any injectors. I wasn't sure how to do that. It looks like they screw in to the side of one piece of the valve cover. Do I remove them there? Or at the injector pump? Or do I need to take off the valve cover and remove them inside? This is probably my next step just so I have more info to go on when I open up the valve cover. Then I'll open the valve cover. I figure I may as well tilt the cab before this. I'll have to get new bigger tools for that. I google around for advice on this and the most prominent results are from a court battle over wrongful death when a mechanic got crushed under one of these things ... lovely. Though it sounds like if it's done right, it's safe ( http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/DIRTWRENCH/2010-09-30_001231_cab_tilt.pdf ) There's oil leaking out of a couple places in the crankcase ... Mechanic just thought that was due to whatever else is wrong and isn't an issue in itself. Still, at least something is right about this engine. It cranks up almost immediately; first crank every time. I'd like a good mechanic in the Raleigh, NC area, but I'm 0-for-1 so far. I'm fairly capable myself, just short on time. I've rebuilt a toyota 22-re and several boat motors. This think looks like a piece of cake compared to all of the vacuum/electric/emissions in that stuff ... assuming that I don't run into stuck bolts (and I'm hoping because of the recent reman I won't) This is becoming a project just like I was worried about! I guess I could have been a smarter shopper....
Call cat, if you dont it will cost you a bunch
It will be cheaper if you haul it in.
Sure sounds like an exhaust gasket to me. I would be looking at the manifold to head gaskets on each cylinder. I think youll see a black trail at the one leaking
We tilted the cab (sure was easy!) and got to work. I'll likely get help if it it's below the heads. The guy who rebuilt it (and you guys) are helping me diagnose through videos. Nothing looked too out of wack around the rockers. One washer was bent a little beside one of the rockers. There was gunk around the spring on one valve in the corner. One valve spring retainer had a bit of gunk on top. Lash seemed mostly fine, but I need a bent feeler gauge to confirm. I felt puffing near #1 and #4. I may try to isolate this or correlate it with the noise. Mostly the puffing/spitting/leak sound is more pronounced, and seems really out of the ordinary. "Manifold to head gasket"? I'll be out there some more this weekend. Noise without valve cover: https://vimeo.com/133217933 Noise with valve cover (same video as before): https://vimeo.com/130882861
Listened to video and see what looks like possible exhaust leaks. Circled two of the questionable spots. #1 looks like it's black where manifold attaches to head. #2 Looks like a leak at clamp in exhaust pipe. The #1 area I would think the most likely problem. Putting the engine under load would make either of these easier to see/feel.
You can see a manifold bolt missing for #3 cyl right by your #1 circle....
New information! The bolts for the exhaust manifold for #1 cylinder were loose. I could feel a _little_ exhaust puffing out. I tightened them and it stopped. No change in engine noise though. The missing bolts in the manifold are not supposed to be there. They're for mounting something to the exhaust manifold, and aren't used in this engine configuration. (The mirror image bolts on the other side are used however) I finally got some wrenches on the fuel lines and was able to isolate the puffing sound to the #3 cylinder: https://vimeo.com/133245832 And there is a lot of gunk just on the spring retainer for the #3 exhaust valve: https://vimeo.com/133245796 The puffing noise seems to be coming from inside the engine because it gets so much louder with the valve cover off. And I can see exhaust coming out of the heads with the cover off. Seems to be it could be: 1. Blown head gasket between #3 and crankcase 2. Bad rings/piston/sleeve #3 3. Bad valve guide on #3 Anything else seem possible? So I could pull the head, but that would seem like some wasted work if it turns out the whole block needs to be pulled because of boring or whatever.. Although, yeah, the head would have to come off in this case too, it would seem easier to do this when the block is out. Any idea what the likelyhood of each of the 3 possible problems I listed is? Should I get a borescope down there? Or any other way to isolate things myself? I may cut the oil filter open... I should check the head bolts for tightness too... And this is just the puffing noise I've isolated. Does the engine sound bad otherwise? Any metal knocking or anything? It seems like it may be louder than this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWBTuWCqxdM
Ah my bad! Hard to tell from the blury video snap shot.
Does the Engine have a lot of blow by?
I'm not sure on the exact definition of "blow by". Is it just leaks around the piston, or does it include leaks from anything else into the crankcase? Anyway, I don't think this engine has much of either aside from cylinder #3. The way it starts right up on the first crank seems to indicate that compression is generally good. (Especially considering cylinder #3 we think is at least a little weak) I suppose a compression test could isolate the issue between a valve guide leak and the other compression-type leaks for cylinder #3 ... I have a compression gauge, but I guess I'd need some kind of adapter that fit into the fuel nozzle port?
Did you speak to the person or organization who rebuilt the engine and ask them for a list of what parts went into the rebuild..? That might give you some insight if something had not been replaced that maybe ought to have been.
I was going to ask him the bore next time I spoke with him in case that becomes relevant. I'll ask them to send over any paperwork they have. Last time I talked to him he said it was entirely rebuilt/reman "top to bottom".
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/blowby.html Here's a decent article on it. There should. Be a tube hanging down near the bottom of the engine going to nothing. The crankcase ventilation if there is a lot of like smoke coming from it then there is blow by.
You,ve jumped into this and your over your head and budjet i think.
Find out what was done or supposedly done to it. At this point your best friend would be a good mechanic that you can trust. Its hard to diagnose a problem like this via the internet. My uncle had a D7F that developed a knock on a new engine with 10 hrs on it. They checked the bottom end , re-torqued everything , started it , same knock. They pulled the head and again found nothing wrong. I noticed that all the pistons had burn marks from running but one. Put it together started it cold , one cylinder was dead. Bad injector. It was knocking bad as well. Replaced the one injector and was good to go. Could be as simple as this we hope.
That's pretty crappy to say , this is almost like cyber bullying.
I don't mean to be mean or rude but all these machines are big and expensive. it takes a good budjet to buy and maintain any machine if you don't fix it right it will break you quickly. folk don't sell off used equip. for nothing. when you notice you have a problem you have to do what it takes to find and repair the problem . I,ve had a lot of guys want to be owner/operator truckers and when I shoot them straight I often got told the same thing dickiejr when in fact I was really looking out for them. apologies if I hurt anybodys feelins.
I'm not taking offense, but I certainly hope you're wrong! I think I've diagnosed the loudest sound, the puffing. It is cylinder #3 ( https://vimeo.com/133245832 ), and from the inspection today, it is almost certainly a leaky valve guide. Here are the cylinders in numerical order. View attachment 137870 I can feel puffing with my hand next to the #3 exhaust valve (The dirty one). Here's a guy with a 3204 that had worn guides: So I should be able to pull the head and take it to get fixed pretty easily. Now the question is whether that's the only issue....
And I'm gonna try and get someone to look at it before I pull the head just to make sure they don't hear anything else. Maybe help some pulling the head. I hear these things are really damn heavy.
I would think it's more likely to be blowing past the injector. The hold-down bolts have been known to break. I would suggest removing the injector to check before removing the head. Note: Don't try to undo the steel tube where it fastens to the injector. It's not meant to be removed. Remove the external injector line then unscrew the internal line from the nipple that goes through the rocker box, then remove the nipple, then remove the injector.
Hopefully one of the guys on here can email you the procedure to RR the head etc. It will help you no doubt. May be a simple fix.
I'd also suggest that you check if there is any leakage past the injector as a first step before going any further. Maybe check all 4 injectors just to be on the safe side. If you want any procedures from the Service Manual for either remove/install injectors or the cylinder head (or anything else for that matter) send me a PM with your complete machine Serial Number and your email address.
I truly hope doing the head will solve your problems. I,ve never seen a valve guide this bad ever... while you have the head off I,d check to see if they did install new cyl. kits. and if it was me I,d drop the pan and check at least 1 rod and main bearing just for peace of mind. jmo
Let's go one step at a time. Make sure there are no compression leaks past one (or more) injectors which can be done without removing the head. The installation on those injectors is pretty finicky to get right. I hope the person/company who rebuilt the engine followed the procedure correctly. If they didn't it may tell us something about other corners they may possibly have cut during the rebuild.
While you are there, hand rotate the engine until the bad guide valve is just off the seat and try to wiggle the valve at the top with the spring retainer, it will be stiff but if the guide is bad it will move noticeably. If it does move side to side you have a bad guide and the head will have to come off. I've seen this more times than I ever wanted to and it was always a bad guide on the sooted up cylinder. If this was just rebuilt, they did something wrong, or the guide was damaged when it was pressed in, etc. Do this in conjunction with what Nige posted above.
Know i just remembered, one time i had a injector loosen up and it caused the same soot problem. It also added fuel to the oil. You might do a oil analisis it might shed alot of light on your problem.
I went out there today. First off, I need to get my dad's full set of SAE tools. All of my tools were stolen a few years ago, and when I stocked up, I decided to buy just metric ... I didn't think I'd be working on anything this old ever again So I didn't have a small enough SAE socket to get off the injectors. I'll take them off tomorrow. Anyway, I was able to test the valve guides, and yes, the #3 exhaust valve guide has a 1-2mm of play side to side. One other valve has maybe 0.5-1 mm of play. All the rest are good. I started taking off stuff to pull the head. It looks like a fairly easy job. I'll look at see what things look like, but yeah, I'll likely be taking off the belly pan and the oil pan ... I'm still analyzing audio samples, but I think there is some knocking that shouldn't be there.
boy, I sure hope the bottom end is good for you
Head is off and at the machine shop! No more surprises. Everything came right off. Head gasket looked fine. Cylinder walls seem good. I did drain coolant (using the little valve pictured near cyl #4), but obviously not enough! The coolant on the pistons was just from leaking out as I removed the head. Got the coolant off and put some oil on top and on walls: Looks like a 0.040" overbore: And a few weeks ago between the time my mechanic told me it was OK to run and the time the rebuild guy said not to run it 10 feet, I did a little work. This tree had been stuck deep in the pond for a couple of years. This thing yanked it right out! (broke my chain though after I got greedy and tried to skid it up hill)
no cyl liners in these engines ????
I would be putting some cap plugs or other cover on those open fuel line fittings on the injector pump before some dirt gets in there and gets expensive!! No cylinder liners in these engines, it's pretty much half of a 3208 "throw away engine"
when you bore them to max then you can sleeve the block back to std.
I got out there today and dropped the oil pan. It took a little more force than I anticipated. I guess there was some silicone sealant or something holding it. The only thing I had time to do is wiggle everything a bit. My mechanic had said the knocking was likely side-to-side play in the wrist pin. Well, there is side-to-side play in the wrist pins .... and side-to-side play in the rods (video below). But CAT doesn't list a spec for side-to-side play, and wouldn't some be expected anyway? Would excessive play cause knocking? Another day I'll do some turning of the crank and see if there is any play in the stroke of the pistons (I couldn't create any play from pushing). And I'll remove a rod and main bearing and take some pictures. Any other suggestions? 1 minute video: https://vimeo.com/134570893
if it was me I,d pull the engine and take it to bare block then see what I had then bring it back up correctly. this way you,ll now what you,ve got plus if you document everything it will mostly come back in resale value. jmo
After seeing your video the fore-and-aft play at the crank and wrist pin end they all look & sound normal to me, although from it's hard to be certain with your hand blocking the view. The key fact is that all 4 cylinders should be pretty much the same. TBH I wouldn't expect problems in that area. What it didn't seem to me like you tried was to pull down or lift up the rods. That's what would indicate rod bearing wear. I personally would remove all 4 rod end caps and inspect/photo the journal bearings plus also remove the front and rear main bearing caps and do the same inspect/photo procedure. While you have the rod bearings disconnected move each piston up slightly so that the top rod bearing is just clear of the crank then see what up & down play you have between the wrist pin and the rod eye bush. If all that comes out clear IMHO there is no need to go any further than you have right now. Did you ever get chance to speak to the engine "rebuilder" and find out what parts they put in the engine when they allegedly rebuilt it to zero hours..?
I did attempt to pull and lift the rods, I just didn't get any wiggle there. But I was going to get each piston in a position where the crank was pulling it down, then push from the top to see if it moves in at all. I'll check/photo each rod/main bearing/cap/journal. I did cover up the fuel injection stuff. I'm having a bit of a hard time communicating with the rebuilder. For every question I ask I get a response that somehow includes the fact that 3204s are "junk engines", as if that somehow absolves him of needing to do good work. At this point I'm kind of just waiting to see if I find anything egregious enough where I can put any real pressure on him .... not that I need much help at this point, as it's already apart. The engine is out of his one year warranty, but he's a national rebuilder with a reputation (not a great one mind you) that he may want to protect. It seems he clearly botched the value guide ... maybe through negligence. The valves were all mismatched if that matters. There could be something else I find. There was a bit of inconsistency in the side-to-side play of the rod bearings and wrist pin bearings-- mainly just that #1 cylinder had less than the others. My mechanic could have been right when he said that it was just the wrist pin moving back and forth, and it is a non-threatening knock, but I'm not finding much about this by googling. I've filtered out the audio a bit. It's easy to identify cylinder #2 because of the valve guide (originally I was calling this cylinder #3 because I numbered backwards). So from the 1-3-4-2 firing order I get to hear/see the power stroke on each of the other cylinders. #1 definitely seems like it's a little quieter than the others... Should a reman engine have new connecting rods? It seems he could have replaced the rod bushing and kept the old rods, keeping any side-to-side play. So I'm thinking new rods could be a fix to the knocking. Would there be much risk in new rods? Anyway, I'll check the bearings first.
That bottom end doesn't seem to have any abnormal side to side play in the rods, did you pull the oil filter off and dissect? Looks like your having fun under there, at least your machine isn't fresh out of the landfill like all the track loaders I work on :throwup
Answering your last question first. A "reman" rod is simply a used rod that is straight and conforms to all dimensional tolerances that is then fitted with a new wrist pin bush. Regarding wrist pin side-to-side play. A wrist pin is a maybe a few thousandths of an inch shorter than the distance between the two circlips that retain it in the piston. The fit between the wrist pin and the piston is tight enough that you can push it back and forth with your fingers but it is not slack enough that it will fly backwards and forwards on its own while the engine is running. What can happen though is that if there is a couple of thousandths of play between the O/D of the wrist pin and the I/D of the connecting rod eye bush you can get what I refer to as a "small end knock". I am coming to the conclusion that for peace of mind whatever you find in the crankshaft rod bearings you really ought to whip out the pistons and check the wrist pins, wrist pin bushes, circlips, and most importantly the fit of the wrist pins in the pistons. Also have a look at the pistons and see if they are all the same part number just to be on the safe side, as a last thought check that the piston rings (where it is called for) have been installed the right way up. Some can go either way, often the compression rings have a step in them and must be installed a certain way. If you need any info regarding specifications please drop me a PM with the info required and your email address. Regarding the "rebuilt/reman" engine. The work was done for the previous owner of the tractor, correct..? If so surely he has some paperwork, an invoice, etc, etc, that details what work was done to the engine during its alleged rebuild.
Thanks for the advice! I'm working through this stuff: I removed a couple connecting rod caps. Then I removed the #4 piston (which seemed from the audio to be the loudest knock). The wrist pin is loose. I took it into the machine shop (as I was picking up the head from there), and I showed it to the guy there. He thought it was loose, estimating about 7 thousandths of clearance. It's supposed to be about 1.5 thousandths with 3 thousandths the max allowable. He obviously couldn't say for sure that this was the source of my knock, but with the other mechanic initially diagnosing the knock as a wrist pin, I'm getting more confident this is the source. When you buy new connecting rods, do they usually come with bushings in them? The machine shop guy said new rods may be my best bet if they include the bushings. The bottom part of the rod bearing (on the cap) seemed to be in good shape. The top part was a little more worn (less white, more metallic) with specifically a teeny bit of discoloration where the force from the power stroke would be applied. The machine shop guy said everything is probably OK, but to plastigage it before reassembly. I'll try to do that this weekend. The crank rod journals appeared fine. The main bearings look like a real PITA to deal with. They require 120 ft-lbs of torque, and my wrench only measures to 100 ft-lbs. And the service manual says I can't rely on plastigage with the weight of the crank on the bearing, so I'm not sure what that means. I'm thinking about leaving the main bearings alone unless something turns up with the clearance of the rod bearings. Bad idea? Oh, and the head is trash. The rebuilder apparently put in a new valve guide, but the machine shop guy said the head should have been thrown out before the rebuild. The piece of the block that the valve guide went into was already way too stretched out (if you look real hard at the picture you can see it, but I need another picture). I talked with the rebuilder again, and he may be willing to make good on some of this stuff. 1:40 video where you can hear the looseness of the wrist pin bushing fit: https://vimeo.com/135104055 Some pics:
Lower rod shells should never ever show wear, if they do you have big issues internally, as to the upper shells, almost appear as if installed dirty, oil was left dirty too long or they did not adequately prelube after build last time, more than likely +.001-.002 additional clearance to stock new. As to wrist pin play, piston slap is still piston slap whether it taps the head or carbon ridge or rattles in a spreading liner bore or slops up and down on a pin, will knock noticeably and usually under low load conditions. Hope the rebuilder does stand behind it, many today slap these things together with a get it out the door warrantee, too many do not any longer put out a quality job.
I don't see anything in those rod bearings to worry about. As DM says dirty oil or not prelubing enough before the first start could have done that could produce those symptoms. Reman or new the replacement rods will come with bushes already installed. As your rods appear to be prefectly OK to the naked eye then they would definitely be acceptable as cores to turn in for the set of Reman rods. That would be cheaper than going new and would get you to effectively the same place. The rod is an 8N-1721. Reman is 0R-0914 and lists around $180 each. New rods are $335 each and the Classic option 269-5291 lists at just under $100 each. Regarding the cylinder head you also have a Reman option because despite the wear in the bores where the valve guides are installed your existing head will still qualify as a Core. Your existing head will be either a 1N-4304 or a 7N-6544. Both service to 1N-4304. The Reman number for that is a 0R-2672 that I'm showing at around $1150. There is a Classic option of a 269-8761 @ around $1000. A new 1N-4304 is around $1700. In the case of both the connecting rods and cylinder head you should order them based on your engine Serial Number just to make sure they are the correct ones. You really need to be at the rebuilder for the cost of the Reman head plus at least one rod to replace the rod with the dodgy bearing plus a set of gaskets if nothing else. I would go for genuine Cat ones rather than will fit TBH. Better still go at him for 4 rods. Why not..? The worst he can say is no ........
Having built a number of engines in my career I have to agree with Nige here, go o the rebuilder, offer to subsidize or share cost to see if can swing a full set of rods, and the head, insurance is a handy item if well placed.
I would also comment that I would not use Cat Classic Parts in an engine, however cheap they are. Things like mufflers, fine - internal engine parts no. Although I guess a lot depends on how many hours/year you plan on putting on the machine.
Why would you need new rods?? just press in new small end bushings and have them honed out to fit the pins, just as a matter of info what is scripted on the B/End shells (Part No and any detail O/S U/S) the engine re-builder must be some right Tool I suggest you keep well away from him, I.P.D. engine parts is good kit that is often better than O.E. in my mind that holds up very well, most of my customers go for the cheap crap its not my worry as it costs the same to fit as the good parts, if the re-builder gives you any money or parts I would be shocked as his liability stands with the man that paid his Bill, save yourself a load of crap and just tell him he is **** at his job and move on to the man that had your coins you might have more luck. tctractors p.s. Next time you go spending money, take your Cousin as he is sharp!
I,d pull the engine out n down and get it to a "good"machine shop and let them remachine it completely. its clearly been jack legged to get it sold. I bet every corner has been cut. rebuild the rods, install over size valve guides/valves, give block /crank what they need. check cam good for wear. might pay to .install reman oil pump too . clevite make excellent o/h kits for this engine for about 900.00 I,d drop starter and alt off and have them gone thru while there off. DB electric sells new alts n starters cheap. if you get cat reman yes there good but no better than a quality reman components your machine shop can give you. jmo bob p/s I bet the cam bearings are shot also., get a reman water pump too.
I've removed all of the piston assemblies. All of the wrist pins have a similar amount of play. I plastigaged 3 rod bearings (didn't reinstall that #4 piston assembly) and they were all perfectly in the middle of spec-- 3 thousandths. All of the bearings look visually similar. My original idea of just replacing the rods was because I saw them for $35 .. but they were aftermarket which sounds bad for something that goes this deep inside an engine. My machinist said he could do the bushings for about $35 though, which seems all that's necessary on the rods, so I'd probably stick with these rods. I sent a request to the rebuilder. I'm not seeing much danger in letting him fix this stuff. He seemed to want to correct it once he heard how egregious the valve thing was. I can take it by the machine shop and let them look it all over before I put in in the engine. If I had time, I'd certainly do more... but I don't feel like I'm cutting too many corners here.
that head is shot,i,ve never seen guide holes worn that bad. this tells you what the rest of the engine is right off imo
Not sure where that temp indicator is mounted but looks like the engine was run hot too. And that valve guide bore in the head is scary! What happened to the engine before the last guy who worked on it must have been a real work of art. I'd be pulling that one down to the small bits and check every nut and bolt. Probably half the bolts are grade 2 from the dollar store torqued in with an air wrench.
never do just the little end of a conn rod. do big and little ends.
Well.....After reading through this thread,I can only agree with those that say 'start again from bare block '.Before you do this however,you must be totally confident in the fitter that you choose to rebuild it.This will be somebody that is allready in high demand and with a price tag you may not like the sound of.This will be the right man for the job.Clevite,IPD and Cat are all good for your engine and whilst I understand this may appear to break the bank,you will be able to recoup that 'investment' by selling it at the end of the project. You need to document absolutely everything with pictures and bills from that highly reputable fitter that you need to find
The rebuilder requested I send him the head (at great expense of time and money to me) ... I had sent him this picture previously: He sent the head to the shop he got the head from, described as "very reputable" ... They claim the valve guide is just worn out, and it's not their fault. (This is all after approximately 100 hours of use). And, although not sure as to my how advantageous this is to me, at least one of the other valve guides is worn and ob-longed, just not with any gap around it. So now I have no head and have spent good money to send it to them, when it seems this picture should have been descriptive enough from the start. What prompted all of this was how alarmed my machinist was at this finding the guide like this, as he stated he was 100% confident that because of the geometry of the gap surrounding the guide, the head should have been trashed. I believe they tried to install valve guide seals to mask the problem. As far as I know, this engine isn't supposed to have valve guide seals. And I read that valve guide seals can impair lubrication for engines that aren't designed for them, create more problems (that are possibly what I'm seeing with the other valve guides). BTW, I realize this guy has little direct responsibility to me (though apparently the warranty is transferable and things are often handled outside of the warranty period). I haven't threatened him or anything. He just seems to want to preserve his reputation. He's shown initiative (publicly) to protect his reputation in the past. I want to be fair. And I also realize that I'm not in a great situation here with the state of the engine. But I know I need a good head, so that's what I chose to pursue for now. Do you guys have any opinions on whether the head was bad before the rebuild, or whether it all could have occurred afterwards?
The hole around the valve guide didn't magically happen in 100 hours since a rebuild, I'll say that much .........
I,am with nige
Tractor is snake bit it seems
I,d buy a new aftermarket head personally but I,d also pull the engine completely down and bring it back up so I,d know its right.
To that I'll add in 45+ years of working on big engines I have never seen one that bad and how the gap got outside of the guide then wore the inside of the same guide is beyond me. We restored an old antique AC Mack that was parked in a hedge row for maybe 50+ years and the valves heads were rusting away and that one the guides were not as bad as this one!
3208 cylinder heads should be the same, you would have to check casting numbers, you can buy used on-road 3208's for dirt cheap since they are pretty much useless boat anchors compared to newer inline 6 medium duty engines. You'd have two head cores to work with and a bunch of spare small parts. https://raleigh.craigslist.org/hvo/5181292076.html Also I have build engines for certain customers with tight budgets out of mostly good used parts. I've never had anything but compliments on the engines I have built. Usually hard to find used heads that are still within spec, but they are out there...
Steve, the guy who rebuilt this thing, is a real piece of work. Not that he necessarily had any obligation to me originally, but after him having suggested I send him my head, I expected him to take some responsibility to get this thing fixed. Instead he turned it over to his supplier and put me in contact with them, which seems a bit unprofessional to say the least. They're much easier to talk with, but they've got notes from the project where he stated to just get it working as cheaply as possible, so they did. They want $800 to fix that POS head. So I'm out the $150 to ship it and a core. Anyway, I'm done with him. I'd be wary of dealing with Steve Spencer from Mid America Diesel. I have been scanning for these. That craigslist one was a 1978 which is probably precombustion, a different head. CAT wants 1200$ This guy seems like a real nice guy and can get the head to my door for $660. Casting #2W7165: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reconditioned-Loaded-Caterpillar-2W7165-Head-3208-3204-/201362084096 My CAT dealer didn't seem to think a 3208 head would fit because of the intake manifold connection, but I've definitely read otherwise. But after all this crap, I do want to make sure I get the right head. Here's a place where the casting #2W7165 was taken back to part #9N5819 http://www.dieselcastwelding.com/ca...flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=105&category_id=21 Would that fit and are the internals matched for a 3204T? My rods are done ... Got new wrist pins and bushings.
Now my CAT dealer called with a "take off" that he can get me for exactly $660 delivered too. And it's off a 3204T. So what's better, a "take off" that comes through CAT, or a remachined one off ebay? (seems like I should know the answer) Or a CAT rebuilt one for 1200$ ....
buy a new aftermarket head, there good too go.... anything used needs to go to a good machine shop to be checked out before install.
I've never heard of or seen an 1160 or 3208 that had precombustion chambers... :beatsme Doesn't necessarily need to go to a machine shop, just need a good straight edge with a set of feeler gauges, a dial indicator and a good set of eyes... Just my 2c . I've got more time then money for my personal machines. If the machine was going to be making money working 12hr shifts for years to come then I would go balls out on it, but it's not..... If it were mine I'd get her fixed up decent, as cheap as possible (aka good used head) do the work you bought it for then sell it to recover some of your money spent. Again just my opinion!! :drinkup
I'd be just as happy with the used head from the Cat dealer as aftermarket so long as it was checked first.
Its already off, it doesnt make sence to not send any head new or used to machine shop to be checked to me and seeings the original was in such terrible shape if you dont pull the engine and go thur it now you will shortly i promiss
Agree on the "Checking" ! Pull out the valves keeping them in the order they came out. Clean and inspect the head. Measure guides to assure they are well within spec's. Take straight edge to head to be sure it is nice and flat. Reassemble and test valves for good sealing with fuel oil in exhaust and intake ports. If guides and valves are good and head is flat the worst it should need is a light touch-up on the seats and valve faces.
use vacume to check valve is sealing. do it right............... even new head have corners cut. this is the world we live in now, profit is bottom line not quality
That works too, if you have the vacuum tester.
I got the loaded reconditioned head from the ebay guy from a 3208. He got it already reconditioned from a school system selling surplus. It seems to be in good shape, and I finally had good enough weather yesterday to get everything mostly put back together. Obviously I didn't pull the engine and take it all apart, and maybe I'll regret it, but right now I kind of just regret taking the thing apart at all. I think for the amount I plan to use it, I probably would have been ok with the engine and all its issues. No less than 5 times we said "oops, we got the wrong head" ... but it always turned out we had something temporarily misaligned. I still need to get a couple plugs and fittings that were in the old head but not in my new head. Once I get the ones to keep the coolant from leaking, I was going to fire it up.. What would you guys do about those big holes on the back side of the head in the first picture? Those are where the fuel lines enter in a 3208, but in the 3204 they enter from the other side of the engine through the valve cover. I was thinking CAT may make some plugs. Or it would be easy to tap with 1/2 npt threads, but may be too late now that everything is much less accessible. I bought some short, thick grade 8 bolts and nuts (for corrosion resistance), and I was just going to to put them on with some rubber washers, but I'm not sure there isn't a better way.
I got it all put together-- went super-smooth. No surprises or leftover bolts, etc. Everything torqued to spec. But it won't start. It used to start instantly if the throttle was 2/3 or more. I can get it to smoke and I can feel it kicking a little bit, but it won't catch. I started everything with the fuel lines open hoping to discharge any nasty fuel first. I didn't know about the hand primer pump though, so my starting at first probably didn't send any fuel through. I tightened the lines (why, i don't know) and tried to start it, and still nothing. I googled and found out about the hand primer, so I primed it with that and the lines tight. I did send some nasty fuel to the injectors doing this. I then cracked the fuel lines afterwards and saw a few teaspoons of darker stuff come out before it cleared up. BTW, pumping the hand pump sends fuel through the other pumps directly through the fuel lines. I was surprised about that. Seems it could overfuel or even create some kind of hydrolock if you send too much. Here is a video (40 seconds) showing fuel spitting out the little holes in the valve cover, and it shows some little black specks in the fuel: https://vimeo.com/141899485 I read somewhere there are screens in the little fuel nipples that go through the valve cover. I may check these for gunk. I looked at the diagram of the injector pump, and it looks like even if some dirt/water/etc (which if anything was condensate) got in through the top uncovered fittings, there is a check valve right below, so it wouldn't have been able to mess up the moving pump parts or anything crucial. And I kept some diesel in the holes with a dropper. But I'm still wondering about the state of this thing. I rechecked valve lash and it seemed fine. I didn't do anything while apart that should mess up the timing. I did give the cylinders a little hone to remove a little rust that had formed on two cylinders (we forgot to reoil the walls after removing pistons), but it cleaned right up, and it didn't seem to remove any material. Could my injectors be so clogged from the first bit of dirty fuel? Should I take an injector out to test? Maybe turn it upside down so it sprays upwards to check the spray pattern? People say it's hard to get the air out of the fuel system (even though it seems to me I got it out) and that they need a little help first time starting. Should I try to spray some ether or wd40 in the intake? Thanks guys!
I would measure the holes with a dial caliper and get some core plugs of correct size to install.
In the video with the fuel squirting out the weep holes, the the injector lines are loose I hope? If you get thick grey/white smoke out the exhaust while cranking it should fire on it's own. I'm hoping the specs of "dirt" you're seeing is just external contamination..
Yes, they're loose in the video. It was nighttime so I couldn't really tell the color of the smoke.
If you've not disturbed the cam or pump timing during your repair, and you're confident that you've got the valve set right, it should go. Cat fuel pumps are a little unusual in that you can pump fuel right up to the injectors with the hand primer, a good thing IMO. It looks like you're on the right track. Loosen the injection lines at the unions, pump away at the hand primer until you get no air bubbles at the weep holes, screw down the hand primer, crank it over a few times and tighten a couple of the lines. Crank it over and it should eventually fire. Remember that the pump still has to push the air out of the crossover tube and the injector. Once you get it running on two cylinders, tighten the other lines.
I went out there tonight with the intention of bleeding the thing til I was blue in the face ... But I quickly found a leak in the fuel filter, causing bubbles to keep coming through. I'll get a new filter tomorrow and see how it goes! And I measured the holes with a caliper. Exactly .75, so I'll get some freeze plugs for it. Thanks!
When I run mine out of fuel, I pump it a few times until it gets harder to pump. Then I have someone else turn the key start and i use the prime pump at the same time. It works like a charm.
I replaced the fuel filter, primed, and it fired up on the first crank. Ran a little rough though. Cracked the fuel lines and I found #2 cylinder wasn't firing. I swapped the injectors between #1 and #2, then #1 stopped firing, so it seems to be the injector. The guy at the machine shop took off the injector, so who knows how he beat it around .. or may just be clogged with dirt from the fuel. I figure it's probably beyond a soaking. I looked at taking the think apart, but it looks kind of tamper-proof. Some weird screw on the side (torx-ish, but not torx). And a 7-sided nut/bolt on the top. I ordered a new injector for $65 ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Caterpillar...type-Diesel-/171677565269?hash=item27f8c7c155 ) ... A lot easier than dealing with the old one, if I just need to deal with the one-- but I'm wondering if I should have done something with the other 3 injectors ... either ordered 3 more new ones or just sent all 4 off to have them cleaned?
Got out there today for a few minutes. Installed the injector and it runs smooth. I mostly let it idle, then moved it about 100 ft. Anyway, I don't see the coolant circulating through the top of the radiator, and the water is still cool to the touch The gauge on the left (water temp?) has always been pegged, even when off. The gauge on the right (oil temp?) seems normal. Could there be an air bubble around the water pump? I forgot to massage the hoses like I used to have to do on my toyota... Thermostat stuck? shouldn't there be a little bit of bypass? How do I test?
Right guage is water left is oil temp.
Got out there today and finally started digging! I'm glad I was able to find dry dirt under the muck. The family joined me after about 20 minutes of work starting to make a ramp down to the pond. I still have a day or so more of the pond draining to get it to where I can take the loader across. The radiator or water pump did have some kind of air bubble around it. It got up to about 205 degrees before I remembered to look at the gauge and then checked the radiator cap. When I did it was still cold and a bunch of coolant spewed out before everything started flowing. It's gonna be a while before I get productive on these controls... Thanks for all the help getting this thing running! I hope I don't blow it up!
I've got a lot of work done with this thing. Man, if you've gotta just have one machine (for the work I'm doing at least), this is the machine! I can knock off of work a couple of hours early each day and get a bunch of work done just by myself. The hydraulics and transmission are really strong-- no issues whatsoever there (yet). The engine is still hanging in there just fine. It goes through a little oil and coolant, but I don't really care adding a little here and there for the work I'm going. I don't think it's the head gasket because the coolant smell is more from the fan blowing through the radiator than out the exhaust. I've removed about 40 trees averaging 12" diameter or so. I skid them up a hill (behind where the pic is taken) and bring back a load of dirt each time. I'm preparing the dam to have a driveway across it. Before: After:
Nice looking road across the dam