customer picked up his cat skidder today and dropped of a tj 460 that wont move. In neutral running it will roll if pushed or pulled put it in any gear and it will lock up the tires like its in 2 gears at the same time. Going to look at it tomorrow. Thinking electrical. this is the 2nd skidder Ive ever worked on his cat being the first. Any ideas????
hatch, what series is it? as you can see from my thread "all in a days (or two) work pictures" I have spent some time in timberjacks. If you haven't figured it out yet the cab tilts to the right so you can easily work on the transmission. If this has the little electrical joy stick to control the transmission there are solenoids on the left side of trans. These solenoids often have problems. does it roll when the park brake is in park? it sounds like this is what your saying! the park brake (multi-disc spring applied pressure released) is the chunk of stuff on top of trans near the back where usually the winch drive shaft comes out of. I'm guessing someone has done some "wiring" maybe someone crossed a couple of the two wire weatherpacks connectors.......TIO
hatch, page 9 post #121. these hanging off the back is the park brake. you can see the solenoids there above and forward of the mount on the left hand side.....TIO
Hatch, like TIO asked is this timberjack or what I call a johnjack . The 460-460c will be an original timberjack, and the 460d will be a john deere with timberjack badging, they are completely different machines. I can help with either one and have service manuals for both. The original timberjack 460 will have a cummins engine. I could identify with a picture.
before after had sometime this evening and went out and cranked it up, looked down by the seat and thought that looks like a lot of papers dug it out and its a loose leaf service manual and alot better shape parts book. tried a few things then took all the pages back to shop and started smoothing them out and cutting all the loose binder edges off and punched in new holes and put in new notebook after putting them back in order, now I have soemthing to read this weekend the machine is a straight timberjack 460 ser#985093 with a cummins engine and monitor type dash and yes it looks like their are some codes when you mash 1 of the dash buttons. the screen by the joystick shifter seems to show correctly when its shifted but when you crank the engine its instantly under a load and no movement, shifting, shuttering even while shifting just nothing like the trans is siezed and your stalling the torque, rev it up and nothing but black smoke. wasnt here when they unloaded it but they say in neutral it will role but if you put it in gear it wont roll just slide the tires.
TIO and PAS sound like anything yall have run into
As you know diagnosis is difficult from a distance, but it seems there may be two or more problems. The hydraulic may be stuck on stroke, with trans in neutral move the boom up and down and see if the load releases with a function is in motion. The clutch pack for the winch is located in the trans' so winch shaft should not be turning unless winch is engaged. Only two clutches should be engaged in any given gear except one gear which will only have one engaged, will have to look that up because I can't remember which gear has the single clutch engagement . It is a Clark 32000 transmission . The shift solonoids are on the left side(sitting in seat) of torque convertor housing. Marking and unplugging all solonoids will eliminate two many clutches engaged electronically. Also behind the panel under the shifter is a limp home toggle switch, unplug the shifter and plug in to toggle switch this will give you forward and reverse in one gear. With key switch off (shifter plugged back in )move shifter into reverse and pull to you and hold then turn key switch on, the shifter will then run through a diagnostic sequence, o for open circuit , s for short and g for good in each gear. Probably not related , but after turning park brake switch off it is nesesary to apply service brake to release park brake. And there is the possibility of mechanical failure internally. Maybe this will get headed in the right direction.
10/4 will check
Partsandservice, you know way more about these than I do! You are now my go to guy when I have problems with these. I had no idea about the limp home mode. Hopefully for the customer it's not a trans failure. I haven't been part of an r&r and rebuild that wasn't close to $20k! ....TIO
Well what I thought was a service manual was a operators manual "didn't really pay any attention when I was putting it all back together last night" sat down this morning and started reading thru it and Ill say this, this is probably the best operators manual ive seen has schematics and all, tells about that limp home that PAS told me about
Well, I learned it the hard way. This was timberjack country back in the day.
Best school in the world, hard knocks
got the cab up this morning with the IMT and pulled it over to the wash rack after not being able to see the trans for all the dirt, grease and assorted pieces of pine trees now this is more like it
Any progress on that Jack?
No P.A.S. I hope to get on it this week we just had some more important trans. jobs and other things that keep getting ahead of it.
Labeled and disconnected trans shift solenoids and cranked, engine still under load and no movement. pulled drive shaft to winch cranked and no load on engine now, hooked shift solenoids back up and trans works the little bit I tried it with the cab tilted over. Question does that shaft turn all the time with clutch pack in winch doing the aplying or does it have the clutch pack in the back snout of the trans. thats not releasing.
Tio Pas ?
All log skidder winches that I have ever seen have the clutch and brake in the winch. Many turn full time of the tranny or transfer. Some have an in or out lever like a PTO. Bet the winch pinion bearing are out and locked it up. Common on grapple skidders because the winch oil level never gets checked because it doesn't get used. I take the winch drive lines off in the winter for more power to the ground.
That's what Im used to on dozers and other things but didn't know on this as its got what I think is a clutch pack on the back of tranny and I was reading on another site somewhere that a fellow had a similar problem and had to tear the trans down to fix or just run it without the shaft
On the 460 the clutch for winch is in the transmission. The winch prop shaft should only turn when the winch is engaged to winch in. Trans pressure should be around 270 psi. The trans pump is mounted to the back of the torque convertor housing in the middle. The two hoses on trans pump are for the trans charged filter, the pressure regulator is sandwiched between the pump and torque housing. Trans pump draws suction internally with a pickup screen made to the drain plug on the side bottom of trans housing.
OIH, may be on to it even though the winch shaft is not supposed to turn constantly in this application a seizure in the winch could have caused a mechanical lock up of winch clutch, clutch disc warped or broken and stacked on each other.
Is that clutch pack pressure applied then or spring applied and pressure released
Pressure applied spring release. Different brand but same idea as that cat where loader you posted about in pictures from shop and field. The winch clutch is different from the other gear clutches only in size and number of disc and plates.
I believe the winch solonoid is located on the block on trans tail shaft where the park break and diff solonoids are also located.
So then probably have 2 problems winch locked up and the clutch pack on the back of trans is locked down from mechanical failure or its getting pressure to the clutch pack when it shouldn't, is that clutch energized with a electric solonoid
I was typing while you were posting
solenoid only energized when winching or energized when not winching
I will look it up in the am so I can tell you which one it is. I believe all the solonoids on that block have the same part number so they could be swapped out. As I am sure you know it could have power constantly or the valve it self could be stuck. Don,t know when I' ll get to computer as we are slammed. Don, t forget to apply service brake while or after releasing park brake.
thanks PAS for the help sent you a email earlier today for your # and sent you mine will check on the am to see on the valve and solonoid
Interesting setup on that Timberjack. As the winch shafts are a expensive high wear part, and the winch takes a fair amount of HP to turn, the transmission clutches make sense as long as it all works. Please post on what you find.
Sounds alot better than the older JD and CAT with the drive shaft spinning all the time, wearing them out.
Found why the winch drive shaft was turning all the time as you look at pic someone has bypassed the valve and hooked the 2 lines together sending oil to the clutchpac at all times the line coming from the valve to clutch pac removed winch and pressure tested brake and it works and can turn unit drive by hand removed valve that they had bypassed and hadnt capped off, cleaned it and reinstalled in the morning will install winch and drive and see what happens
Because I value this forum to share and gain knowledge, I would like to point out as Hatch has that the winch clutch is not controlled by an electric solonoid as I stated earlier .
No problem Kieth in your defense you thought it was a newer model, we cant remember it all with all the different models of machines that we work on from one day to the next
I am still confused. With the lines hooked togather so the clutch pack in energized would the winch not just turn. Or is the cable tight and stalling the machine? Do these winches have the same spring loaded to apply brakes that slip when winching in. Or is the winch brake possibly stalling the machines. Everything I work on is older still. This is interesting.
As of this time what we have found so far after checking the winch, is that since the valve was bypassed the holding brake in the winch was on because it is spring applied and since the clutch pack was activated by the bypassed valve it was trying to turn the drive shaft """I THINK""
Put the winch back on and adjusted the control cable, fired her off, trans worked correctly, winched in and that worked put her in free spool and pulled cable off with forklift , then rode brakes on lift while pulling in then tried to pull off with winch in hold and all worked correctly . This has been a odd duck as not knowing the sequence of events why or what caused someone to bypass the winch valve and was this done after the trans had quit causing another problem unto itself, as the owner says that unit was working and when they came back it wasn't, just doesn't make sense, but as of now all is good. THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND INPUT GUYS!!!!
Did the winch spool out hard enough to need the forklift to unspool it or was that so you would have an anchor? I would hate to be stuck and need a tow just to pull out my winch line. Should spool out by hand when released. If not used much they sometimes need a few assist pulls to get the brake cleaned up. With the old Gearmatic Model 19 it was automatic to hook to a tree every morning and go in and out with the winch a few times before you started skidding in the morning. The Model 20 fixed that issue, at least ours worked nicely.
Na it would spool off just hadnt been used in a month of sundays and looked like a birds nest anyway and this way we rolled it back up tight, Ive pulled to much cable off of cranes that didnt have power down easier to hook it to soemthing and take off
Anchors are good. Gad you got her done. Enjoy your well deserved beer.
I have a timber jack 460c with error code 9 on the dash. Grapple has no function. any idea what that code would be for? Id appreciate the help