Hello all. I am currently laid off and am spending time at my unions training center. I have been around dirt work for 3 of my 5 years of operating equipment. Started out on scraper, and also checking grade on a finish crew. Then move to scraper operator on a bulk crew. Next came push cat operator. Spent 3 months with a D5C doing finish grading around houses and a couple of road projects. I have spent some time at the school with a dozer refreshing myself with grading. This week I was on a grader. Cat 140G to be exact. Some free handing, some with GPS. The instructor has told me I have great potential to get a full time seat in a grader. He said if I am able to spend the winter with him there is no reason I shouldnt be able to go after things next spring if I can find a machine. That may be the hardest part of all this. So heres what I'm looking for. What kind of things should I be practicing. I've been working on rough grading cut and fill areas. Ive been cutting flat bottom ditches. Using the material from the ditch to build a 50ft wide roadway. Ive also graded a "football field" and graded an area for drainage with GPS. What other things should I look at doing while I have the time. This week I'm looking at grading a street into a culdesac, Grading berms and slopes, Grading streets to curb lines. Ive seen some tricks done with a grader that I couldnt believe. Most of them done by Randy Kreig. Most impressive was pealing asphalt out of a 4 inch wide trench, done for an electrical contractor at an airport. Josh
First, welcome to the forum! So, if I'm reading this correctly you did all of this in one week?
Did this in a total of four days. I will be a little more specific with the things I did. Day 1. First day on the machine. Spent first half of the day making and moving windrows. Learning how to maintain an even window over a long distance. Also just getting the feeling of the machine. This wasnt my first time in a grader, but it was the first time with any real instruction. Day 2. Rained out of the grader. Spent the day in an excavator digging. Day 3. Started the ditches and road. 300x50 road. Two ft wide flat on the centerline of the street with a 2 percent fall to the shoulders. Two 300ft long ditches. Both with a 2ft flat bottom. 1 to 4 back slope and 1 to 3 front slope. Cut the ditches and roughed in the street. Day 4 Finish grade the subgrade of the street. Fine tuned the ditches. Then the instructor hopped in a scraper and brought me sand for the street as a subbase simulation. Spread the sand across the entire street to 4 inches thick. Fine graded for "asphalt" Day 5 Set up GPS poles and receivers. Since we did the street in the football field we restored the area. Scraper moving material and me respreading things to a rough grade using GPS. Did not fine tune things on the field. I will probably spend Monday and some time on Tuesday on the football field. Cross grading things to a ready to seed state. Then I went to another area aprox 1000x600. Things were roughed in by a dozer. I then roughed the area in with gps. Day 5 was getting things roughed in as fast as possible. Mainly for drainage reasons. We had a good bit of rain headed in. Josh
Sounds like you have a good training area. After reading your first post I was surprised that you was able to work with all of those different applications in such a short period of time, if that was your first time on a grader. Thanks for being more specific. My experience on a grader has been with road maintenance. This consists of grading, fine grading, leveling gravel, leveling asphalt, ditching etc. There are other grader operators on here that have worked with GPS and other tasks as well. As said it sounds like you have a good area in which to practice working at different tasks, so listen well to your instructor and learn. There are many tips that we could give you, but it would depend on what you are doing. You are lucky though, as it sounds like you have a good instructor. A lot of us old farts had to learn by trial & error so to speak.
Take your time..... I know thats the hardest thing to do.take your time be patient. I have the hardest time training people when they get to a certain level where they understand all the controls but want to go faster like the old pro. try to see what you want to do before you start.....I find most people learning try to do finish grade right away.....I have working in the mining application as well as finish grading and road maintanence. "your ass in the seat will tell your hands what to do" best quote I have ever heard. be patient. hope it all works out for you.
Thanks for the words of wisdom guys. The ass definitely tells me where i need to do something. A lot of time I feel and see something that needs to be addressed but I have a hard time making it happen. Its always been the same for me on a dozer. I can see and feel it, but Im not sure on how to make things happen. Usually its only a quarter to half inch correction that needs to be made. I know time will change that. Thanks again guys. Josh
Hope that applies well for you caus...Your new grader ain't gonna have a sterrin wheel!! Sorry...couldn't resist...and yes I am jealous
I havent been around long, but Ive already figure things out. Grader4me always seems to be doing this :stirthepot On a side note, we did have have one of the cat 14M test machines at the training center for two days. There doesnt seem to be much interest from the guys in graders. Until the M showed up. I got about 15 minutes in it. All I can say is WOW. Everything is so responsive compared to the old style.
Perfect! I'm glad someone finally noticed
Oh boy can't wait until my shiny new M shows up...........I don't put my ass on the wheel grader4me but I will be think of all the turns you will be making with that wheel of yours
Lol..Right on! Seriously, good luck with your new grader and keep us informed on how you make out with it
Ditch Work I have been working on ditches this week. Today found me in a muddy ditch with a 90 degree turn in a short radius. I can only work one side of this ditch. So have my tandems crabbed onto the high side. When I get into the turn is when I run into my problem. I seem to get pulled into the bank on the other side. For some reason I cant make the turn. I have about 2-3 inches of material in the bottom and on the slope. What can I do to make the turn. Im not trying to take all the material out in one shot, trying to take 1/4 to 1/2 inch of material out. Ive tried a few different ways and I just cant seem to make this turn. Any words of wisdom? Josh
Hey Josh...Sounds like you're having fun! Seems to me that you have two things against you here. First is the muddy ditch as your steering and traction is going to be reduced. Top that with a 90 degree turn So I take it that you are working your foreslope. I don't know how you have your moldboard positioned so lets talk about this first. Have your moldboard tilted all the way back so that your material will roll off your blade. Make sure that the toe of your moldboard is positioned flush with the outside of your front tire, not beyond. You can crap your grader to the high side as you say, but have the front wheel in the ditch line leaned toward the high side. Use the toe of the blade, lifting up the heel a couple of feet and cut your ditch line (3 or 4 inches) The next pass put your front tire in this ditch line with your blade positioned flush with the outside of the front tire then start making your cuts(light) bringing the material to the road. Try this and see how you make out.
Never Give Up One of my tricks in a similar situation to what you are describing is to turn the moldboard around backward. Remember there are teeth 360 degrees on that circle and they don’t put those teeth on there for looks. They’re on there to be used. If your not really use to the machine you’ll most likely tear things (tires, steps) up getting it turned around. The other extremely important thing to watch for on the machines equipped with slope control; the cable routing for the rotation encoder/sensor. If the cable isn’t routed properly (most aren’t) it will tear the cable in half when the moldboard is at about 90 degrees (parallel with the mainframe) rotation. I can turn the moldboard around on my 14H(equipped with a 16 ft moldboard) in about 45 seconds. It is a requirement to graduate from one of my motor grader training classes. My students have to be able to spin the moldboard around using the proper technique without touching the tires. It’s really not that hard if your shown the proper way. Now on to the operation. One of the problems as Grader4me clearly stated; traction. Your trying to move the material out of the ditch and the material is trying to move you (and your grader) down in the ditch. So turn the situation around so the machine has the advantage and better steering control. 70% of the machine weight is on the rear tandems so make that the leading end/steering end (assuming your on an articulated machine). Remember articulation is designed on a Caterpillar motor grader to be used as a “Working Tool†not just a maneuvering tool. If you insist on doing things the old way just be sure you understand how and when to use the "differential lock". They don't like to turn when the dif is locked, but sometimes you gotta keep it locked just to keep moving. There is more involved here, but I have to get to work. I have a 14H torn apart and need to get it put back together and ready to go to Prudoe Bay for the winter. By the way, who the heck is Randy Krieg? :beatsme Regards, Randy
I don't have a clue, but from his profile, and his first post, he seems like a guy that might know a thing or two. I'd like to welcome him to the HEF.
Randy, welcome to the forum! I"m sure the members will benefit from your knowledge and experience. I will look forward to your posts.
I'd like to second... er I guess third the welcome to the boards Randy. Your experience and knowledge I am certain will be most valuable:usa :notworthy Whoever the heck you are:beatsme :drinkup
Randy Kreig is a grader god from the great white north. He is also a high detail scale model builder. He made a real nice cat front shovel. I also remember a nice 988G that was in progress. Ive seen some pictures of some amazing feets done by Randy. I like the one of the right front tire defying gravity while it levitates in the air over the edge of a bank. I also like the ones of him rolling asphalt out of a 4 inch wide trench at an air force base. He knows how to perform many tricks with a grader :notworthy . Randy, Can give you some details about your class at IUOE302. What kind of tasks do you teach. Im currently going to IUOE324 training center and training on my own. We havent had enough people to do a scheduled grader class. I have just about built all of our GPS projects and Im looking for things to practice/learn by going back to "old school" Grader4me, Your tips helped out a lot when it came to working that ditch line. Im going to have to try Randys tips also. Thanks for all the help guys. Josh
Wow! The mystery is solved. Happy to have been a help.
Welcome to HEF Randy Krieg! :drinkup
Thanks 4 the welcome Josh I mostly teach two different classes at the training center, motor grader 101 and an advanced motor grader finishing class. I have taught a couple scraper/pushcat classes in the past. I’m not a full time instructor as I have too many other commitments. I usually agree to teach two classes in the spring and one in the fall. The motor grader 101 is for 2nd to 4th year apprentices. I start off with teaching the design theory and averaging principals of the machine. I believe it’s vital to understand these so you can make the principals work for you and not against you. For the rest of the class I use the Caterpillar H Series Motor Grader Application Guide, which I authored back in 1996. I also use the Caterpillar H Series Application Videos (Contractor Applications and Governmental Applications), which I am the featured operator in. I go into more detail than what is in the guide. I cover machine design, machine function, attachments, ditching, backsloping, foresloping, road maintenance (building crowns in the tangents and supers in the corners), processing material, working with compaction equipment, working with a paddlewheel scraper and water truck usage. One of main reason I require that they learn to turn the moldboard around in my class is that’s the way I generally park the machine at night. When the moldboard is facing backwards this positions the front drive teeth of the circle in the back. This position exposes the front teeth (14 & 16H only) this way the teeth can be greased by the night service oiler every night without having to climb under the machine. To get in the advanced class they have to of held a dispatch as a blade operator for 2000 hours. The advanced class is mostly about how to use and set up automatics including slope control, sonics and lasers. We use GPS on our projects, but this local training center does not have a GPS base station setup yet so we can’t cover that. This year they are supposed to get one put in. I spend most off this advanced class covering the automatic slope control since there are so many outside factors, which contribute to its accuracy or inaccuracy. I demonstrate several examples to the students on how the kinematics equations can be flaw by poor operating technique, improper machine maintenance, poor calibration procedures and improper setup. The laser system is the easiest to teach and is by far the most forgiving. It can make a fair operator look like a pro. I have a new Trimble “dual plane†system, which I use for the class training. The hardest part to teach is calibrating the axis. When using dual planes the axis has got to be spot on or the grade will be off. It takes two men, both with cell phones and an operator in a loader to get it right on the money. Once it’s setup it does an awesome job. The accuracy still amazes me. I finished a runway on the Palmer Airport with it this summer. The contract inspector loved it. All of the procedures I mentioned in the grader 101 class are what I would be practicing. When I’m running a 16 on a scraper spread, I finish the backslopes in the cut, finish the slopes in the fill and work on maintaining the haul-road while running back and forth between the areas. When the production haul is completed then I finish all the sub-base then bluetop the D1 in preparation for paving. When the paving is over I shoulder up all the asphalt and finish all the approaches. This always assures me I’m the first one on the job and the last one to leave. Regards, Randy
Randy Great to hear from you again. I have greatly enjoyed and learned from all of your posts on the DHS board, and have been saddened to not see any for a long while. I understand, it is too cluttered with junk nowadays. I hope you will find this site to your liking. I am ready for more of your northern exploits.
Interesting thread. Hi, Folks. This is one interesting thread. I have been rather busy and have not had time to look at it until now. Randy, welcome to the forum. You sound like you've been there and done all of 'that' and more. I'll be looking forward to your future posts. Hopefully, there will be many. Turbo21835, it sounds to me as if you could benefit from purchasing copies of the Application Guide and Application video mentioned in Randy's last post. If he goes into design theory and averaging principles of graders, he is way ahead of most of the people I have seen teaching grader operation. Basically, a grader works on the law of the lever. If one front wheel goes over a rock a foot in diameter, that one foot lift is reduced to 6" at the center of the front axle. By the time that movement gets back the blade, it is reduced to 3" because the blade is about 1/2 way between the front axle and tandem case pivot. If you don't touch any controls at all, the effect of running over that rock is reduced to an average 25% of the size of the rock simply by the design of the grader. If your blade was square across the machine when you ran over the rock, the rise will be equal on both sides, more or less, depending on the condition of your machine. If your blade was angled at the time, the rise will be more under the toe of your blade than under the heel. If you don't touch any controls, this will give you a slight side-to-side wobble as your tandems run over it. If you are grading at a low speed, this will have a fairly minimal effect. If you're grading at high speed, you will may end up with a case of the 'speed wobbles' If you make another pass in exactly the same track (assuming that the rock was graded away on the last pass) your front wheels will encounter the 3" average rise and give you one of two different effects. If your blade was square on the last pass, both front wheels will go over it together, giving you a 1 1/2" rise at the blade. If your balde was angled on the last pass, one front wheel will encounter the area where the heel of the blade rose last time before the other front wheel encounters the area where the toe of the blade rose past pass. Let's say that the toe rose 4 1/2 " last pass and the heel rose 1 1/2" lst pass. When the first front wheel encounters that 1 1/2" rise, it will translate to a 3/4" rise in the middle of the blade. When the other front wheel encounters the 4 1/2" rise, it will translate to a 1 1/8" rise at the middle of the blade. From this, it can be seen that a grader does a LOT of the work for you and the more you understand it, the more you can get it to do for you with minimal effort on your part. I attach this little story to illustrate this point: "One day, Gary, the excavator operator, asked me if he could have a play on my grader for the last hour of the day while I ran his excavator. I agreed, we swapped and off he went. When I next saw him at knock-off time, without waiting for me to say anything, he came straight out and said, “You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din.†I asked, “What are you talking about?†He replied, “I’ve just been working my a** off on that grader. You look as if you just sit up there and let it happen.†" This grader was an OLD and rather tired Cat 14G with minimal brakes and lots of slack. A really good operator on pretty much anything seldom LOOKS rushed, always cool, calm and collected and very much in control of things. And RELAXED. It sounds as if you have good training grounds, even if the actual training is a bit lacking due to lack of numbers. As Randy mentioned in his first post, the articulation is a WORKING TOOL. learn to use it to your advantage. It occurs to me that you could probably have used it in your muddy drain to help keep your drive out of the mud and probably also to help you steer around the 90 deg. bend. If you are grading heavy windrow or cutting heavy on one side of the blade, angle your articulation to put the drive more squarely behind the load, even to the point of having your outside drive wheels outside the toe of your blade. If you can't achieve this due to space restraints, at least articulate your machine so that the toe of your blade is in line with the drive wheels on that side and have the front of the machine offset away from the blade toe with the lean wheels angled away from the load at the blade toe. An articulated grader is an extremely flexible and adaptable machine. Be adventurous with it. Experiment with it to learn what it will do, where it can reach and how to make it do it. Learn the reach of your machine, how far up a batter or outside the turning circle you can extend the blade, how to set the blade for awkward cuts in supposedly impossible places, and anything else you can think of until the machine is pretty much an extension of your mind, until you can look at a job and say, "Yes, I can do that this way", and have absolute faith that you CAN do it. Hope this helps. Feel free to fire questions.