Hello, Please excuse my long post. Current owner of 2x Toyota 4SDK 8's I inherited when buying my landscape yard business. They're pre 2000, have been unloved, abused, unmaintained, neglected and flogged. One is having a wheel motor meltdown I'm sure, they're starting to freewheel and to turn the machine, letting go of one drive stick has no affect any more, I have to reverse that drive in order to turn. The other has a very creepy transmission and will not stay put no matter what when the engine's running. I'm very impressed with these machines considering their age and condition and what's broken, disconnected, smashed off, etc - they still give 99% all day every day without hesitation. Time to upgrade at least one. They're barely heavy enough for what we do and considering the number of SDK 10's for sale, staying with Toyota seems unlikely. I've been told, "If you can afford CAT, buy it - it's worth it" - "Once you've had CAT you'll never go back" I'm considering going to a 246C which has the extra weight covered, but there seem to be so many CAT models to choose from it's all a bit foreign. The extra linkages and pivots of a vertical lift machine make me skeptical, plus I need reach at mid height where a radius lift machine would be better. Then there's the hesitation of going to pilot controls. Plus all the fiddly sensitive electronics to act up like a cheap watch. My only experience is with Toyota, hand and foot controls, old style mechanical everything. PLUS my wife drives one as well so I have to consider what I decide to buy, she has to adapt to also. Can I please solicit opinions, experiences, ideas and thoughts from those who know ? All genuine comments welcomed and valued. Please excuse the long post - these are genuine queries from a guy trying to do homework on machine selection with no time for slick salesmen that want to sell me their machine. Thank You. MrBlob
think of everything from purchase price to parts and servicing running costs to resale weight vs capacity and stability at capacity capability to have attachments (enough auxiliary flow and pressure to any attachments you want to use on the machine) u need to like the interior cause its what u have work with (durability, operator friendly, simple, comfortable (suspension seat, aircon, modcons)) and the controls should suit how u operate or want to operate full joystick (left hand drive, right hand bucket control h pattern (forwards backwards as normal, left and right on sticks control bucket) foot control (hands control movement, feet for bucket) the learner
The previous poster hit most of the high points you should be considering. CAT has been making skids since around 2001 and has quickly become the number two machine in the market. This wouldn't have been possible if they made a poor machine, and the resale values back that up in most areas. i wouldn't be too concerned about "extra linkages" as in my experience they don't really add any appreciable cost to running the unit. I would determine the need for a radial or vertical lift path linkage based on what I wanted to do with the machine- if you need extra reach loading a truck then a vertical lift path would probably be better. There are also other OEMs out there to consider as well; however, the CAT machines are a good product and most likely would serve you very well. Good luck.
The early machines had some engine bugs that have since been resolved. I haven't been in the industries latest offerings, but for a long time Cat's controls were far superior to any other brand. I can personally attest that Cat stands behind their products, they covered an engine replacement for me nearly in full when the machine was 8 years beyond the warranty period. At the time I purchased mine, their price was very competitive.
ive been on most skid steers ive used everything from komatsu to deere to cat. Cats have a good resale value and are very reliable. as far as comfort not sure what it was but the cat wasnt for me, id like to mention i demo'ed a bobcat s510 the other day and they have come a long ways in operator comfort. if it were me id choose like this for ssl (my own preference btw) bobcat, cat, deere, case or komatsu for a ctl it would be asv, Takeuchi, Cat, bobcat or komatsu in that order i mentioned in another thread the all wheel steer bobcat A300 i used for a short time was great and if you do landscaping its nice option to do a little less damage to the turf
How does everybody find the pilot controls for "feel" ? Can you really feel what's going on ? Are pilot controls totally electric and fly-by-wire, or is there feedback ? How did you adapt to them or have you always used them ? I'm assuming the larger machine will be more stable ? I have considered going to a tracked machine, but I've been told the tracks and rollers don't appreciate constant use in a gravel yard situation, and undercarriages wear out quickly.
Mrblob, for what its worth, I'm not brand partial, I look at the dealer support, dealer network in my area, past history with those dealers, then the machine itself and go from there, every maker has its perks and downfalls, its up to you to figure them out as to what you like or dislike and can live with on each machine. As for being cat and never looking back, I'd avoid that kind of thinking, no matter the brand, I've been told that with cat, deere and some others too, its kind of narrow minded thinking in my opinion, but then I have about a dozen brands of machines right now, maybe more if I'd actually count them all up and for me, each machine does its job and had its perks, brand had nothing to do with it. I like hand controls, the older one's, but my family and crew like foot controls, thus we have foot controls on our skids. I've been in and run most every brand out there but komatsu and I guess toyota skids, I personally hate any tracked skid steer no matter who makes them, they all ride rough, are high priced to keep undercarriages under them, in my area they are frozen up half the year and the other half is spent fixing them from the freezing weather, your constantly fussing with them and after a few hours of use the problems start, they were a fad in my area a few years back and everyone hated them unless you absolutely have to have one, I'd avoid them, don't get me wrong, they have their purpose and use, but for a general skid steer, I'd probably say no. As for pilot controls, I've used them but don't care for them personally, neither does my crew, thank god or I'd have to have them, they work fine, but to me the one's I ran were like the older gehl skid steers with one hand doing the driving and the other running the bucket and dump, after about 20k hours in the old hand foot control design, I guess you can say I"m too old to switch now and I didn't like the feel of them for feathering out material and turning, just not my cup of tea. Then you can discuss the rigid boom machines, like the older case and bobcat, to the parallel lift machines like the new holland and now the hybrid lift machines like the newer case and bobcat, not sure of the correct terms to use but its what my crew calls them, actually they are called something else I can't print but you get the idea. I have no idea what the toyota skid steers are, I'd never seen one let alone run one before, but I like the super booms new hollands for most things, especially service and repair but that's a whole different topic of discussion. If your going to run a hammer or do precise grading and leveling go for a more rigid boom design, if you want lift stability go with the more parallel lift design and I can't say much about the newer bobcat and case boom configuration I haven't been in them enough to have an opinion as of yet. If I were you, I'd go around to the dealers and try all the brands of machines, take the wife along if she's going to be running them, her opinion counts more than ours anyhow, and ask questions and if possible demo a few brands and see what's out there and what you like and don't like, forget the new smell and looks, they only last a day anyhow and get a first hand opinion of them, what we like or dislike means very little at the end of the day, its what you and your wife like that counts, your the one's running them, not us. Its what I do when we we're shopping for a new machine, then everyone puts their two cents into the hat and I go from there. I've always said the best machine in the world doesn't do you any good if everyone hates it and refuses to run it, that hand controls thing I like, was one of those issues I had to overcome if I wanted help and people to run my machines besides me.
A few thoughts: - Dealer Support in your area Parts support ditto Forecast operating (& maintenance) Cost - parts pricing + how often do you need them Lastly, and most important - Test Drive, Test Drive, Test Drive ....................
Pretty much what all have said. I happen to live in an area where we have a superior Cat dealer (Ziegler Cat) and after sale service is also superior. With that being said, I've personally ran Cat's for over 50 years and Im proud to pull onto a jobsite sporting Cat equipment. I'd even pay more for that personal feeling I get and probably do. I know there are other good brands out there, but there is only one Cat!!
Not for me Dealer support is a major issue if you're going hand over your right "nut" for expensive new equipment. This brand might have a big network out in Australia, ticking a lot of boxes in many areas of business but if you're not a major player (contractor or in the mining industry), the support is still a bit ordinary. The prices for servicing they charge, has let all the other machinery dealers "jack up" their rates inline but not improving the standard of service. Also, with a "rental" arm they're in direct competition to your business! It would be nice if one could "jack up" / increase our hourly rates to their degree but severe backlash from customers would result. As you may observe, I have not lined up for any company injection
Completely agree Grandpa!
ISO pattern controls are nice. the latest update for the EH controls helps a lot. Still not as nice as pilots but they are okay. The cabs on the C series is the selling point. The C series are done now though anything new is a D series. Between all of our machines we have put over 5500hrs on them and have had one failure, an air filter restriction sensor on our 262C2. Ours get run by unskilled operators on a dairy farm which is very hard on them. We traded from new holland and are learning we don't always have to have the vertical lift. Our first fleet of Cats we got in April of 2012. We bought two new 242B3s and a used 2011 262C with 180hrs. We put 600hrs on that 262C before we traded it that fall for a new 262C2 due to the outstanding deal they offered. A month ago we traded the 242B3 that they use in the barn with 1500hrs on it for a 226B3 again due to the deal and due to the fact the workers all liked it much better because it was smaller and they could see better. The 242B3 we feed with sits in dust all day and is in a very rough environement. The engineers couldn't believe the amount of dust it works in. Its at 1600hrs now. The 262C2 is at 1700hrs now too IIRC. I may be off give or take 100hrs but you get the idea. The 262C2 will probably be the next to trade next spring. We will most likely be trading around 2000-2400hrs as thats when the cost per hour is the best. All of our machines have a 3 year/3000hr warranty. We will be demoing a 242D or 262D in the coming weeks. We will trade the 262C2 on a 262D but may trade the 242B on a 236D or 246D. We don't need the vertical lift, but the visibility on the new 242D looks much better. The 236 would probably be enough but the 246 has the longer wheel base which is nice. For us it came down to service and their reputation. We never even considered them until the salesman stopped out and just treated us well and didn't push us into anything. They had outstanding deals and their service has been top notch when compared with other dealers. Cat at the corporate level has been great as well. Unlike other companies, questions actually get answered and people are listened to. For us its been a good fit. If we had to pick a second choice it would be Bobcat simply for the machine, not the local service. CNH has better service but their recent machines do not impress me. I would maybe consider Deere over them. Good luck.
Bought a new 246C about a year ago and absolutely love the machine. Just put 140 hours on it so we don't use it that much, but we use it for everything from light grading, to loading our dump trucks, and snow plowing with a blower (high-flow) in the winter. For what I use it for the 246 size is a perfect mix between too small and too big. Our local Cat dealer takes care of us pretty darned well too so that helps too. As far as the pilot controls go, I love em. Every time I have to hop in a Bobcat or older skid steer I look like a dang rookie now though! As you can probably tell by my profiles picture, I am through and through a Cat man.
I have a CAT 287C hi flow I bought new, a CAT 289C hi flow (used), and a CAT 259 B3 hi flow (new). Any problems have been few and far between and these machines operate every day. We mill asphalt, power rake soil, dig with the buckets, place sod, push dirt with the 6 way dozer attachment, broom /sweep, mulch, mow, pretty much any thing you can ask the machines to do. All machines are enclosed Cab with AC/heat. Visibility and safety, clearance when loading and lift capacity, service and reliability, my reasons for owning CAT. If you can find a way to pick up a unit from your CAT compact equipment rep through their rental side or from a reputable trade in, you will be money ahead. This is my response reply in another post. We are a total site contractor, hands down the equipment and after sale support we receive is FIRST IN CLASS by our SC CAT dealer. I will consider other brands, that helps fortify CAT's strengths for me.
Thanks to everyone who has offered their opinions. Been trying to do homework on brands and models. We load a lot of trucks, so vertical lift seems to be the go - on the surface, but we need a certain amount of reach at mid height, and the radial machine might be the only one to offer enough. A tape measure will decide when I can measure the actual machine. I've been to speak with Bobcat, and was unimpressed with the dealer, an owner also told the dealer was terrible with any warranty issues. I spoke to Cat today, explained my concerns about electronics and joysticks, and they've offered me a week trial of a 2nd hand 242B3. SWEET !!!! Has anybody had any troubles with this particular model ? Has anybody used their hydraulic coupler ? We could potentially change buckets a lot, between soil and mulch to faster load the trucks, it'll mean further expense to but the buckets needed, but so many less scoops and time to load a 10M truckload of mulch with a 1M bucket as opposed to a 1/3M.... Apparently the 242B3 has pilot controls as opposed to EH or ISO (have I got this right?) and this is a good thing is it ?? durallymax you mentioned your 242 works in very dusty conditions, did it ever have an electronics failure or control problems due to the dust ? We operate in very dusty conditions here in our yard, caused by the machines themselves. The constant twisting and turning on the spot make copious amounts of bulldust very quickly, and the high wind ensure it gets into everything everywhere - fast. :Banghead
The 242B3 pilot controls are the nicest I've ran out of anything. Pilot controls use a pilot hydraulic system to actuate the main hydraulic functions. EH controls use wires to actuate electronic valves (Electric/hydraulic) ISO is the standard industry wide pattern, left stick drive, right stick boom/bucket. "H" is the familiar "Case" pattern that most EH machines let you switch to from ISo with a switch if desired. I wouldn't own a machine without a hydraulic coupler unless I never planned on using it. We change attachements every couple hours around here. Our feeding 242B3 works in a confined building full of various feed stuffs for our cows. Aside from needing a lot of weekly cleaning it has not had any failures to this date and 1500hrs or so. Our other 242B3 also did not have failures but did not spend as much time in those types of conditions, just regular dust from the gravel and dust from the sawdust bedding.
I have had 3 different bobcats, 1 gehl, and 1 cat.....I really miss the cat!
All of my machines have hydraulic couplers. Far safer and faster than manual couplers.
I think if you stick to the main makes (Cat, Case , Bobcat) you should be pretty good. The cat quick hitch is a good thing if you can afford it, the only problem they have is they can jam up sometimes with mud, they do need cleaning occaisonally. The Cat C series machines were when cat first used electro-hydraulics in a skid steer. This gave you the option to switch patterns if you felt the need. I know that was the main reason for selling some machines as the operators could use the pattern they were most comfortable with. Cat B series machines still used pilot hydraulic controls which are pretty reliable. In dusty conditions we were installing additional external pre cleaners to try and keep the air cleaners clean. In my opinion stay away from the cheap european and chinese imports from my experience there isnt much thought put into how they are put together so even something as simple as checking the oil can be frustrating. That is why I think it is a good idea to stick to the main brands. I guess it will just come down to who will seem like the best dealer to deal with for the life of the machine.
Mr Blob did you make any decisions yet?
Well I can say I now know a LOT more now than when I wrote this post. Tested a Cat 242B3 (used) - found the pilot controls ok but the Cat pattern too difficult to come to grips with. The bucket tilt/dump action is backwards for me with what I've grown used to over the years. The machine features were great but the entry/exit from the cab was horrendous and the visibility worse. Can't see the bucket corners, the front of the machine at all or front wheels. The reach was very ordinary. Loved the foot accelerator and the two speed. Driving and turning power was weak I thought. These and several other things key to what we do for our application..... Cat = no thanks. Went and saw Clark (Bobcat) and the dealership are total jerks, plus other owners told me this also. They tried to sell me a used machine with 2000 hrs, local owner operator, always serviced, yada yada, and this machine was extra great value cause they'd just put 2 new drive motors, and a pump into it - hang on a minute !?!?!? 2K hrs and it's got all that done to it already ??? Oh yes you have to expect that. Bobcat = Fail. Demo'd a brand new Toyota 5SKD10. Nice. The new pilot style drive levers take a bit of getting used to, the enclosed cab entry/exit way better than the Cat, but still difficult to get in and out. Vision WAY better than the Cat - for what we do. But the biggest let down was the vertical lift. The reach was again terrible for most of our work. Fantastic for truck loading, but ute and trailer loading, just nowhere near enough. So this helped me decide on radial lift being essential. Definitely need slick tyres too - the yard is torn to shreds. Like the fact there's no computers running anything, all old school solid state circuits. Much stronger in the drive than the Cat, but not as strong in the lift. Kinda slow in turning and direction change though compared to the old 4SDK8......... Can't have your cake and eat it too. Tried out a 5SDK9 at the company test track. Much faster, precise and nimble than the 10. Direction change was awesome. The open cab entry exit fantastic (open cab) -we get in/out over 50 times a day some days - sometimes you're only in the machine for less then 2 minutes. Far more reach on the radial lift where we mainly need it. Much better for pushing up piles, heaping and such. I think I've found my new machine. =) Then...... a customer asks why the Toyota demo unit ? "Gotta buy something, our old girl is dying and I refuse to load with a hand shovel - LOL"...... I'll bring you a JCB !!! OMG....... I'm no stranger to JCB - My dad has a backhoe that older than most of us here and it's innovative for it's age, built like a tank and strong as anything, but this skid steer - wow, sad. Couldn't push into a pile, couldn't lift clear of the pile - had to reverse out first. The cab entry was shockingly bad and cumbersome, several second wait from turn key to crank engine - 3 buttons to unlock machine functions. wow. Visibility was incredibly great though. Engine access is very roomy, fuel cap access great - unlike Cat it was terrible. Customer communication from the cab was difficult as there's no sliding window on the RHS. Loved the foot accelerator again. If I go with Toyota, we'll have 2 machines with same driving patterns, which I can imagine would be difficult jumping from one pattern to another all day. I can interchange buckets and spare wheels. It's a brand I know and the service from the dealer would be hard to beat in my experience so far. Not interested in Case, know too many Case owners replacing engines. New Holland..... meh. John Deere No WAY !! Looks like a 5SDK9 is going to be the go, but I'd rather the extra lifting capacity of the 10 - just need the radial lift. Stay tuned.
I'm just curious what kind of loader your accustomed to operating if the Cat loader control pattern is odd to you? It mimics every single stick loader control I've ever operated. Is there another pattern out there?
What pattern does the Toyota use? Do it not have a universal quick attach plate? From looking at them they look like a simple reliable machine and looks like they are prominant in oz. You say the service is great which is very important. The only yota SSL I have experience with is 20-30 years old. I will agree with you on the 242B3 visibility and ingress/egress being poor. The C series is much nicer but visibility to the plate is poor. The D series has fixed this issue but they are probably too new for your area right now and i'd imagine they are spendy.
I have absolutely no experience with end loaders, and the only skid steers I've driven are these two old Toyotas. What stuffs me up, is my dad has a JCB backhoe, it's most likely an early 70's model I imagine or older, I have used this machine for over 30 years, and the single stick style loader control (when everything else had two) is right and back to tilt back, and left and forward to tilt forward. Also, single stick control forklifts (mostly Nissan) use this exact same pattern and I have accumulated most likely thousands of hours using this left is forward, right is back pattern. I only have a small brain, and it's stuck in that pattern - LOL !!! The Toyota is very widespread in Australia, but you can barely buy one for sale 2nd hand. If I looked now on the main machinery sales site, I'd be surprised if there's any more than about 35 available, nation wide, all models and ages. There are numerous contractors that have them, and the general consensus is they live forever. You can get the current models fitted with a universal hitch (not sure about previous 4 series) but mine and a large majority have a Toyota hitch. I guess they offer the universal hitch so to attract buyers from other brands and they can bring their attachments with them. The Toyota control pattern is hand and foot controls. I believe the same as Bobcat, and I think New Holland. The 242B3 used, 2009 with 500 hrs was more expensive than a brand new Toyota 5SDK9, but they're very different machines. The 5SDK11 which would be the closest but without two speed brand new was about 5K more expensive than the Cat - so I guess Cat's high resale is coming into play - but I shudder to think what it'd cost brand new..... 4SDK8's (same is what I have) which are mostly what's available used, that are 5-10 years old, depending on hours and condition have only lost approx 50% of current model replacement cost. Give or take a little bit depending. That's pretty good really I feel, but have no idea how that equates to more expensive manufacturers. Toyota seems to stick with tried and proven technology, keeping it simple to build and repair, and I imagine keeping the cost down too. The current models still have no computer to run anything. I can ring the dealer, talk to the workshop manager and ask what's wrong, they'll tell me what, how and why, how to find and fix it, how to get her going temporary, and what not to do. Parts have always been overnight delivery, pay by card over the phone, and I'm nobody with no history with them. I've never got one out but they have service vans that come to you if you want. Can you ask for better than that ?
Sounds like that must be pretty good service for your area. I originally wanted to stay with NH because I knew how to work on them and was very good friends with the mechanic at the dealer that knew them well. Then I started to realize I shouldn't be looking for a SSL I can fix I should look for one I don't have to fix as much. That's where Cat has worked out well for me, even if they ever do break they are all under warranty. Our dealer is 30 minutes away and I can pick up parts from 5am-12pm. Sometimes the salesman will bring them to me if hes coming this way, they will also ship if needed. They stock nearly every part I have ever needed or they will have their shuttles pick it up and have it there that night or the next morning. The majority of their service work is done on site. We also have product link which lets you monitor the location and hours of the machine. Thats just an example of what I see as good service. All SSL's will break and if you don't pile the hours on like we do and trade often then I'd be looking for the simplest machine to fix as well. It would suck to have to switch your attachements but the one nice thing is that no matter what you do in the future all of your attachments will fit whatever machine you buy. Same thing with the ISO pattern, every brand offers it. But I think it would be hard to get used to in your situation.