First off our Tatu Marchesan disk the gang bolts running thru all the disks are supposed to be tightened to 2500-3000 ft lbs can I do that with a torque multiplier or is a pneumatic or hyd torque gun the only way to go? it is a 2.5 in bolt with a nut that uses a 3 7/8 in socket! Thanks Jerry
You can do it with either method IMO but beware of torque multipliers, the stored energy when you get it wound up can kill you in a heartbeat if the reaction bar slips. Used correctly torque multipliers are not [that] dangerous, just when they are used incorrectly.
Don't have any idea of what a Tatu Marchesen is bout this is one we have that might do for you: http://www.protoindustrial.com/en/industrial-tools/Proto/Precision-Torque-Tools/Torque-Multipliers/600fcaaf-5cc5-4579-8d41-9d9a9d242446_Proto%C2%AE-Torque-Multipliers-3200-Ft-Lbs/ There is on on Ebay right now for $500. not sure if that is a good price, we got ours through Cat many years ago. Last I knew Cat did still sell the replacement drives. They do break if someone does not know what they are doing! Like Nige says you need to know what you are doing or they like any tool can be dangerous!
Nige, Truer words were never spoken, can you recommend a video showing the PROPER was of using them? Bob
Here is what the disk looks like the right front gang is the problem child
on a torque multiplier if the reacter arm is not long enough can a cheater be used or is that a no no?
Looking at that photo if that's the big nut visible outside the last disc on the RH end of the shaft of the "front axle" the first problem I see is that there is nowhere close by that could function as a stop for the reaction bar of a torque multiplier.
The main one we are having problems with is the one on the left side of the picture and the tube that the gang bolts to does stick past the end of the gang bolt so that would be a possibility but the disk blades are 42 inch so gang bolt would be like maybe 30 in from the bar and how long are the reacter arms on most multipliers?
I've seen cheaters used before to extend the reaction arm but according to the "Book" about using torque multipliers that's a no-no. The problem is that the longer the cheater bar the more it bends making it more likely to slip and if that happens you have a larger missile that gets launched into someone's head, usually with fatal results.
You would be better to put a tractor bucket right in there to use, we have a torque multiplier goes to 3200, I won't loan it out and only use it with a torque wrench when loosening, have seen to many broken. They are delicate and dangerous and expensive.
Just to add to this. Remember if the handle on the multiplier is 18 inches or 1.5 feet long and you are torquing to 3000 lb/ft that arm will be needing to be held against a 2,000 pound force. If what ever is holding that reaction arm can move or flex and snaps back it can get serious fast. Are you the manufacture or dealer of these disks? Does the factory have any suggestions on how to accomplish this? Hard to say from the picture but seems like a bracket could be designed to fit over that large square tubing to hold the reaction arm. Say a section of tubing the next size bigger with a tube that the reaction arm fits into welded on at right angle to it. If you are doing several of these or need to tighten and remove them often would pay for itself. I would just think very carefully about which way the forces are working and pay close attention to any flex while using. You don't want any wind-up of forces as if they unwind suddenly no telling where things will go!
Jerry, make up a spanner out of flat bar 3' to 4' long the size of that nut,next hook the offsets up to a tractor and drive forward with the wheels in the air until the discs start to skid. This method is a bit unortherdox but in the 40 odd years changing out discs I've never had a problem. The most important thing is to do is recheck after a bit of work. Hope this helps. Bill
That might work 8K bill . Clean up the threads & lube them up good and as you suggest recheck it a few times . I would probably go with some kind of purpose built wrench myself . That is a tough looking disk still learn'n . Looks like they use oil bath bearings & Ducone style seals similar to a final drive on heavy equipment . That's pretty cool . http://www.engsol.co.ug/tatuaccbearings.php http://www.engsol.co.ug/tatudischarrows.php
Have you considered a hammer wrench? We picked up a set at an auction and they work great for gang bolts. Cut the gang in, set the wrench on the nut, and swing as big a sledge as you can find. No idea on torque applied though but probably would depend on hammer size and how many beans in your butt.
Extreme caution should be used with this method ..... Someone could get hurt ....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPIP9KXdmO0 wrwtexan , LOL ! The hammer wrench would also work fine , just don't go overboard on the beans . We don't want to strip the threads on the arbor bolt .
Maybe a non sparking hammer should be used or stay downwind to the application of force:lmao
Yair . . . Can't see the problem, a couple of burly blokes on ten feet of 2'' schedule 80 pipe slipped over a well supported inch drive breaker bar onto that 3 7/8'' socket ought to nip it up just fine . . . as has been mentioned it needs checking a time or two until it settles down. Cheers.
2500-3000ft lbs on a 1" bar....? I think I'd be looking at 1-1/2" drive TBH, just to be on the safe side. Or you could try something like this, and believe it or not I took this photo yesterday afternoon. The cylinder bench wasn't capable of getting this nut cracked. 5,000 ft. lbs. give or take and the last time it was tightened was before it left the factory so it was going to need even more than the specified torque to initially crack it. So we came up with this which is a solution I'd used years ago in places where there was no proper tooling. A 4ft-long wrench plasma cut from 1-1/2" plate (it weighs 300 pounds on its own, that's why it has a lifting eye on it) anchor the eye end of the rod down with the loader bucket so it can't turn, excavator bucket on the end of the wrench and give it a gentle squeeze - job done in less than 60 seconds. To tighten it we simply marked the relative positions of the nut and the rod before disassembly and will tighten the nut back to exactly the same position because we are not replacing any hard parts, just resealing. If we're going to have these machines for at least 10 years or so the expense of manufacturing the wrench will pay for itself many times over. Just to give an idea of scale the loader is a 980 and the nut is 260mm (10" give or take) across the flats. We used a 336 excavator as the muscle.
If I got caught using a pipe like that where I work I would get wrote up and a stern talking to:ban That's why I check to see if any boss is around first and put the cheater pipe away as soon as I'm done I don't see how trying to put 600 lb/ft on a bolt with 3 foot 3/4 inch breaker bar that will take 200 pound pull is safer than using a 6 foot pipe on the same breaker bar and only pulling 100 pounds:beatsme Especially when I only weigh 185lbs! Safety germs huh Nige?
We need to get your people to make a tool for us! Have a hoist cylinder off a little 769D that needs a seal replaced. Local Cat dealer can not remove the head from the end of one section to replace the seal and back-up ring! The oring and back-up ring are 25 and 26 inside of tube #24 Only thing that saved us is someone at a different quarry in the company drove another 769D off the face and totaled that one. So we were able to salvage a cylinder off that truck. Otherwise we were looking at about $5,000.00 plus the seal kit and assembling of the cylinder Instead of the $250 for a seal kit. I think I will try to talk the boss into letting me send this one to a Mennonite owned machine shop we deal with at times. Let them know the part is scrap now so if they destroy it it's no big deal. I have a couple ideas but don't have access to a cylinder bench to hold the tube or turn the head. Right now head has two 1/2 (I think) spanner wrench holes in the top.
Ken, we have had exactly the same situation occasionally with 789C/D hoist cylinders and I have no idea why. 95%+ of the cylinders it's no problem at all, the head cracks and screws right off by hand. Just occasionally one comes along to give you grief - and they all came off the same fleet of trucks doing exactly the same work, there appears to be no rhyme or reason to it. The gland/head either moves about 2 turns with difficulty and then stops and will not go either in or out, or does not want to move at all right from the get-go. If a head moves the 2 turns with difficulty we know from experience that the internal thread in the hollow rod is goofed, so now if a head does not go easy within half a turn of it cracking it is stop time. In either case (non-moving or 1/2 turn) in order to salvage the more expensive rod #24 in your diagram with its internal thread undamaged we send the whole assembly out to a local machine shop, have them put it in a lathe and machine the head/gland until it's so thin it literally falls out. It's the only solution I have been able to come up with so far. We actually had to send one to the machine shop yesterday for exactly that issue. After removing the head they also clean up the internal thread in the rod using a new head as a go/no-go gauge until the head will screw on and off by hand right until it bottoms. So far we have had no "repeat offenders" after doing this refurb process so maybe the root cause is quality issues in the internal thread in the rod..?
You mean this guy..?
We need a " Like" button for that one Nige !
Shouldn't you be working on a certain D6H..?
Maybe its the pictures, that rod looks to be a little bent?
Must be the picture. The rod was perfectly straight when we checked it after getting the nut and the piston off.
Another handy way to anchor a rod for repair is to put the end in the clevis on the back of a loader or something and drop the towing pin through the eye. Support the other end on a baulk of timber with a V cut in the end and it's then at a nice convenient height for working on.
That might be the way to go on this one. I believe the head in rod #24 is available for about $500. That's one tenth the cost of the rod assembly so even with a few dollars for machine shop work still worth the effort. Now to just convince the powers that be.......
Yea that's him! Need to hide a tracking device in his hard hat so we can know when he is around. Maybe one of those chips they inject into the dogs to identify stray dogs!
Wwwwwwweeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllll Nige your wrench would look a lot better on the end of my service truck crane then a Rigid pipe wrench with a shackle thru the handle and crane hooked to shackle and having no idea how tight it is getting but as has been mentioned when I have talked to dealer about it it sounds like one of the keys to the problem is retorquing after 4-5 hr of use! And yes the new 4 ft pipe wrench broke but the 3 ft has so far stood up to the abuse!
As I said what we are doing is easier than what you want to do for the simple reason that we're taking a factory-assembled component, marking the position of the nut, loosening it off, disassembling, fitting new seals then assembling it all back to exactly the same place the nut was at previously using the same rod, piston, & nut. So based on that we should be back to exactly the same torque as was on the nut before we assaulted it in the first place. To a certain extent we're not bothered in knowing exactly what torque we are putting on the nut, we simply want it back to the same spot as it was when we started - because if it was right before it'll be right after we've finished with it.
One more question on torque multipliers somebody advised me to get a 3/4" input drive is that a good idea? I have a 1" drive socket that I need already for output drive and most of the multipliers that I have found have 3/4" input and 1 1/2" output what is best? Also if I get a heavy wall tubing or bushing stock to put on reacter arm is that going to be safe? Also thought of making a bracket to go on disk to hold reacter arm so it cant move around! Thanks for your help Jerry
In my experience even a 35:1 multiplier will only use a 1/2" input, the same as the more common 18:1. If a multiplier needs a 3/4" input my first suspicion would be that the reduction can't be that high, maybe 10:1 max. Why pull your guts out on a 3/4 bar at a low multiplication when you can do it much easier and with less effort on a 1/2" on a higher reduction multiplier..?
a 3/4" input with a 1" output would be have a single set of planetaries. a 1/2" input with a 1" output would have two sets in compound. Either way you can pull some on a 3ft 3/4" ratchet or 2-3 times the stroke at less weight on a 1/2". the total input power is the same I don't think any manufacturer would recommend any bar other than what they sell but I have used rod stock cut to length and turned the end to slip fit
ok now looking at the options if I buy a pneumatic torque gun I will still need a reactor arm wont I? I found some used ones for about half the price of new!
The reaction arm on either a pneumatic or a hydraulic torque wrench generally tend to be of the "foot" type that locks on to the adjacent bolt in the pattern, so they are usually quite short. If something goes pear-shaped they will jump off the anchor. The reaction bar from a torque multiplier can be anchored literally feet away from the bolt in question, and if it flies it can get up a fair head of steam before it finally strikes something, that something often being a human body. Don't get me wrong, both types of tightening tool need to be used with extreme care, but of the two types the torque multipler gets me far more apprehensive when it gets pulled out of the box simply because I know what the consequences can be if it goes wrong. http://www.mirmgate.com/index.php?coreId=4343
Here is another option for high torque applications, note the reaction arm as these 1 3/4" allen head bolts took about 9000 lbft to crack loose .
The Cat 6V6080 ( I THINK THATS THE NUMBER) 18 to 1 multiplier IS the best general duty multiplier in the industry - period. Unfortunately this multiplier has in some circles been given the worst reputation in some cases. This comes from it,s use and individuals putting themselves in harms way, simple as that. I have used that multiplier successfully for 20 years in the heavy earthmoving game and only ever busted a few shear pins and 1 set of planetaries. Recently i saw an incident report from someone using a hytorc to undo the mount bolts on a carrier roller on a Cat dozer as he got an oil injection, personally i would have though a 3/4 gun could have undone the bolts but you wont get an oil injection from the Cat multiplier and you won,t get hurt when it is used properly, bit like a lot of things really......... . Still to this day i say the best purchases of tools i have ever made are the 1 1/2 Cat flogging spanner and then the Snapon 1 5/16, 1 5/8, 1 11/16, 1 3/4 & 1 7/8 sizes, nothing i could not undo with them and a 14 lber on them, Nige i had plenty of home made flogging spanners like your flash one, inch plate just oxy cut to suit, resealed so many rams with those and never had an issue, swinging that hammer to tighten them is a big deal though and you got to have plenty of self confidence!!
I agree with Gav about torque multipliers, it's when you read the incident reports about people extending the reaction arms with crowbars, lengths of pipe, etc, that you realize it's not the multiplier itself that's dangerous, it's the fcukwit who was using it. I've never had any issues whatsoever with the 6V-6080 and generally there wasn't much it wouldn't undo or do up apart from 994 axle bolts where it would come up a bit short. In my last job we actually went out and purchased a 35:1 multiplier specifically for that job. Gav's comments about hydraulic torque wrenches pretty much mirror my experience, that's why we use air-operated RAD torque tooling now instead of hydraulic. I've cut spanners out of 1" plate before as well Gav, especially out in the bush... however because this one was going to be around for a while I decided to make a job of it and have it plasma cut. They did a very pretty job on it too if I may say so.
We have many "cut" plate wrenches for cylinder nuts, have the bumpers drilled on the back of the truck to clamp down the rod and use the crane to loose and tighten back up, I thought about getting a scale to put on crane hook to measure the torque, we just do as Nige said go back to starting point. Most problems with torque multiplier are in too much of a hurry and don't plan on needing that much torque so the reaction setup is usually to ( soft ).
I always look at it this way - the multiplier has a designed reaction bar that comes in the box along with it. If that bar will not safely anchor somewhere without needing extending in some way then put the whole thing back in the box and find another way to do the job.
You should look at the hydraulic torque wrenches. The can be a little pricey but much more affective and safer. You set them up and stand back.
Until they blow a hydraulic line, as mentioned before.
Yeah that can definitely happen. Normal when someone leaves it in the back of their truck pinched and rubbing against something then they hook up without looking at the hoses.
We had one blow here a couple of years ago. It injected a ****-load of high-pressure hydraulic oil under the skin of a mechanic's arm and if he hadn't have thrown his arm up in a reflex action it would have probably hit him right in the face. I shudder to think what the consequences would have been.
You shouldn't be standing anywhere near a 10,000psi hose when it it under working pressure. Just like you shouldn't make reaction bars out of crowbars, pipes, etc for a torque multiplier.
I've used 1 1/2 hitorq setups quite a bit. On D11R undercarriages the 1" just won't cut it. Rad guns are handy but both leave me nervous, the rad gun maybe moreso as when it slips it happens a lot quicker. I've made the flogging spanner before but in Aus there's no way you would get away with it now
With that kind of torque, I'd opt for plan D, E or F whatever we are up to by now, and that's to take it somewhere to have them fix it, paying the bill maybe cheap compared to major injury or death if things go wrong, if something slips or breaks while doing this project.................................. but that's up to you to decide. I've used and own a torque multiplier, but after the reaction bar started to slip on where it was placed once, sweat started to run off my forehead and the oh sh@t factor kicked in big time, that pucker factor also kicked in and the moment of truth came, do I attempt to back it off or keep going or where could I jump fast enough to avoid flying debris, then I noticed the reason for the problem was a socket that popped and cracked, as they say no good options at hand, but at that moment, I'd have given any amount of money to have anyone else holding the breaker bar other than me, preferably at another shops location with their insurance involved and I'd have gotten a call later to inform me of the outcome. Nobody got hurt...........luckily but every time I go to use it, I ask myself, just how much is this project worth to me and do I really want to do it that badly myself. Just a thought to ponder a while before putting that kind of torque on anything, as they say things do break, go wrong and bad things happen faster than you can blink.
Morning Tom, Great looking set-up, could you give us the details. I have a 3,200 FT/LB unit and it is a beastie. Thanks, Bob