If you have experience with both Trimble and Topcon GPS systems, which do you prefer and why? I would like to hear preferences and opinions from operators and grade setters/surveyors that have used both systems. I’ve only worked with these two brands, and they seem to be the two most popular systems. What do you like and dislike about Trimble? What do you like/dislike about Topcon? What do you see as the weaknesses of each system? Which software/model construction software do you prefer? Any other comments on the two systems?
trimble is all we use and the only thng I can say bad about it is when you are making a "new grade " or "new slope" you dont see your background map.
i have used trimble/accugrade for 3,5 years now and i love it cant say anything bad about it and know some people who says the same about topcon except for the tiny mast on topcon who shakes aroun where trimble has got 2 very rugged mast that do not move at all i think that if its for caterpillar i would choose trimble if its for komatsu i would choose topcon because of the build in platforms
If you are looking around try ICM out of Ark. Their system combined with Carlson's grade supervisor.
TopCon 1 1/2 years on a Cat D-6K equipped with TopCon System 5 3-D grade control system. System works flawlessly and has more tools and options than you could imagine. Love the slope lock and point of measure offsets when I'm grading for curbing. Not too familiar with the ToPo abilities yet, but I've played with it on slow days... will VERY accurately measure stockpiles if you take the time to do it right. TopCon (just like any system) has its hiccups if you put it in the right (or wrong) place (areas with closely spaced contours or aggressive landscaping areas), but a wise operator knows to avoid these areas or do them manually. Some say that most GPS systems have a steep learning curve... but through my experiences, I would say that if you know how to read a set of site plans and profiles, the learning curve really isn't that steep. On a good day I can literally wipe the dirt right off of the blue tops at a brisk walking pace. I'm very eager to try some other systems because I really don't believe anything could be more user friendly and easy to get used to. TopCon really hit the nail on the head with this one!
i would say excactly the same about trimble/accugrade after 4 years of use but like you i would love to try out another system like topcon
We own both... To make a long story short were sticking with Topcon. Although the Trimble is a great system, Topcon has much better support, cheaper, and easier to operate. I think the Trimble may be a little more accurate than Topcon. We have a hard time getting the Horizontal and Vertical precicions down to sub 1". With the millimeter though were bang on! Trimble is also pushing 900MHZ which is a huge problem on highway jobs. They will only transmit 2 miles max which means you need multiple repeaters at $5000 each. Hope this helps. BTW I have 2 trimble and 13 topcon machines. Multiple rovers for both.
I just started working with the Trimble rover this last year after using Topcon for about 4 years. It took some getting used to, but I like it. I use both Survey Controler and SCS 900. I don't typically run the iron with GPS because I'm on the ground 95% of the time but I have messed around with them some and like the Topcon a little more but I suppose it's cause I have more hours on Topcon than Trimble.
here in denmark trimble use the 400 mhz i have an mobile basestation and has been working up to at least 8 km from it with no problems
I like both systems, but if I had to choose one it would be trimble. They have given us good product support, and the trimble components are more durable, and I think that the accuracy is just a touch better. I am more comfortable with trimble, and I know my way around the system better.
Trimble or Topcon GNSS technology This is our experience at the moment here in Australia and really compares the quality of the satellite based solutions of the two major competitors in this field, Trimble and Topcon. Even though what we are doing is agricultural grading, the same basic hardware is used in the construction products of both these companies. I'm not sure how much GNSS grading is done anywhere else but would be interested to hear what other people are seeing. I run Trimble's agricultural version of the GNSS 3-D on my tractor scraper and a contractor not far from where I'm working has 3 of the Topcon GNSS 3-D MC systems on his scrapers (pans to you guys). We both grade fields for drainage and accuracy is very important. After this last 2 months I think that Topcon has a few issues with their GNSS receiver software. I can grade perfectly with the Trimble GNSS and the Topcon GNSS systems keep changing height and putting waves in the field surface - it's not much really, but it is noticeable, and under lights really stands out. The contractor tells me that the calculated vertical accuracy of the Topcon goes out to 80mm (3 inches) sometimes and at the same time the Trimble isn't faltering and still produces a smooth trim. He sometimes gets his best results when he turns off the Glonass satellites and only runs on the GPS satellites. We have the same scrapers so that isn't a factor. I can drive away from my fields as my scraper leaves them but this other guy has to run a 40 foot wide grader board across the field to try and smooth out the waves. The Topcon guys have changed everything many times and can't stop the height changes and they are getting as frustrated as this contractor. In three weeks we have only ever seen one definite elevation shift with the Trimble, and that was about 7mm, and lasted all that day. The rest of the time we continually grade on the same bench mark offset. The height does shift a bit on a hard turn but quicky settles once we are travelling in a straight line - it's pretty cool to watch. As far as radios are concerned, Trimble have both 900 and 450 as standard options so I don't know why that dealer would be pushing 900 MHz only unless there was already a 900 MHz base established. I don't use the Trimble radios at all. I've gone to a third party 150MHz VHF data radio and can get working distances to 20 kms in lots of areas. We can even repeat the GNSS corrections with the same rover radio at that distance as well. I wouldn't have thought there was any restriction there for using a different radio band so that may be an option to get distance? This type of radio solution is relatively inexpensive in comparison.
I agree the Trimble is more accurate than Topcon. Waves in the grade. We have a lot of trouble with our Trimble setups, but there a bit older.
What sort of trouble? Base or machine set up? What system are you talking about? The newer civil gear is a lot better but still requires a bit of site calibration software to set up. That's why I like the Ag 3-D version - no surveyors needed, just a benchmark location (sorry about that if you are a surveyor)...though it is limited by the control file software at this stage.
I've got a pile of 900mhz radios for machines, rovers,bases and repeaters if anyone is interested! EMAIL ME AT [email protected]
for you Topcon dozer users...you need to take advantage of upgrading your 9168 systems to the MC2. No one can grade with the speed and smoothness of this system. F
We use Trimble we have good luck with it. The only time I have seen Topcon is when they tried it out when we where switching to GPS. The Topcon guy was out trying to get it hooked up and he could not get it to get to pick up a signal. When he did get it working it didn't work that good.
Many people purchase TopCon to access GLONASS. GLONASS is the Russian satellite configuration. Having GLONASS allows for more satellites to be accessed. Trimble representatives have suggested that there might be technical or accuracy difficulties with GLONASS. We have been unable to validate any of these statements. However, we chose not to purchase GLONASS at this time, therefore, we are receiving exactly the same information as Trimble units. Finally, TopCon is able to download the data off their units in a format that is acceptable to GIS software, such as that from ESRI. We had both Trimble and TopCon come to Crested Butte for demonstrations, and we choose TopCon for three reasons: 1.) User technicial support 2.) User interface 3.) Ease of set-up It is our belief that the user support provided by TopCon will be more flexible and will accommodate more of RMBL user's needs. The users interface with the TopCon unit was more smooth and compact than that of Trimble. It is our belief that the TopCon unit will have a smaller learning curve due to this simplier user interface. The setup for the TopCon unit was much more simple. We chose to purchase an internal radio and battery on our base station, which decreases the number of tripods, cables, and external batteries. We were able to choose the internal set-up due to the type of antenna that TopCon was selling. With their internal set-up, TopCon is selling a "rubber-duck" antenna that has positive gain. Gain is an increase in the energy emitted by an antenna over what would be produced by a standard reference antenna with the same power input. It is also defined as the ratio of the power transmitted by an antenna in a certain direction to that which would be transmitted in the same direction if all the power supplied to the antenna was radiated isotropically. The internal set-up that Trimble is selling is a no-gain or unity-gain 'rubber-duck'. Unity gain/no-gain is a set-up where that is no amplification or attenuation to the radio signal. A no-gain antenna will have decreased performance as you move away from the base station or through obstacles, which we saw during the demonstration. 2007 Note: We have found that the user support has been sufficient for our needs. Users learning to use the unit have found it user friendly and fairly simple. The unit's radio has also performed excellently over long distance and through obstacles. We rarely lose radio connection with the base. When there are significant obstacles (trees, hills), the unit performs well in the 2-3 miles range. Without obstacles, the rover can stay connected to the base up to 4 miles. Based on the size and structure of our localizations, these ranges are more than sufficient. :usa
I have used and sold both, and both systems are good. I am currently selling Topcon GPS Machine Control. We have done several Head-to-Head shoot outs and we have very good results with the Topcon system vrs.Trimble. The new MC2 system is even faster than our other systems. There are several things to consider before buying, Who is selling the system? (Has the company made investments in personnel, equipment, and repair facilities?) What do they have for back-up equipment? Do they have cables in stock? What kind of training are you going to get? What does the company have for support? The main thing is support, support, and support!!! Do they have one person covering huge territories?? If you have a problem, or more likely when, how many people does the company have to take your call?? Does the company have personnel on staff that understands ALL parts of GPS machine control? From the data prep, the base/rover, Networks, etc. Before you buy anything that costs that much and you are going to change the way you stake, or not stake a job, Ask the above questions to your sales person!!!!!
It must be noted that the post above by Ling is a direct cut and paste job from the website of the Rocky Mountain Biological Laboratory . If you have something of value to point out elsewhere on the internet, by all means do so, and give credit to the author. Don't post something and make it look like your own work when it's not. Just like in grade school, being a copycat gets you a failing grade. :cool2
I had wondered how the new member from Pakistan had the manufacturers come to Crested Butte CO for a demonstration. Did not sound too likely.
hi t dirt, One of my mates has 3 topcon 3dmc systems on "pans" with all the latest software and hardware and is having some issues with his designs rotating on the screen and the heights changing to match that rotating position (can you see the problem that would cause on a batter?). As is fairly typical, the dealer tells him that he is the only one having this problem but he knows of 2 others who have the same drama. The curious thing is that the tractor has a Trimble RTK Autopilot system steering the tractor getting corrections from his Topcon base station. While the steering is still maintaining a straight (and repeatable) steering line the design on the Topcon screen is rotating occasionally. I told him I'd ask here to see if I can find a solution for him. Any thoughts?
I have heard of similar problems with Topcon due to the single mast antenna needing to be in motion to figure out the orientation. I have heard of them being confused fora and aft as well. I like the dual mast on the Trimble so it knows the orientation at all times. Not that it is flawless, but it just seems to me to be a better way to go. I could really se it being a problem on any kind of a slope, or "batter" if you will. Never figured out the down under crowd calling a slope something we would make a cake with, but whatever your pleasure. As far as a correction goes, I do not know, but maybe someone with Topcon experience will pick it up.
if he has only got one antenna on it that might be the problem?? but if not call trimble and i garantee you they will put a demo system on it and after he has tryed it out he will never use anything else when it comes to automated gps systems there is none better than trimble!!!!!!!!!!
Anybody wanna buy 3 (near new) Topcon 3DMC systems?
No thanks, I'll stick with Trimble.
Hi all, I'm Dave a Land Surveyor from the UK. I have extensive GPS and Ground Modelling experience and am putting this to good use with GPS machine Guidance. I have just set up a company in the UK dealing with the Prolec Digmaster Pro and PCX-3D systems. I have seen the exact same thing on my own Digmaster Pro with twin antenna's. It's more than likely that it's the number of satelite's overhead and their geometry. On my system there is a traffic light that shows green for dig and red for don't dig (when satelite geo is duff) When it drops to red (less than 5 sats to get a fix) my profile screen remains good and true but look at the plan screen and and it shows you being out of position. Also if the Base is pumping at less than 20hz to the Dozer it'll constantly be sluggish and jerky. Dozers need 20hz plus, Excavators only 5hz. I'm sure the Topcon 3D MC2 was boasting 100hz data stream IIRC. We use a custom JAVAD GPS system with Dual Channel (GPS + Glonass) antennas. You can have you own custom systems sorted easily enough via third parties. We essentially strip out from the GPS kit what isn't needed, providing our clients with lean, quick and accurate fixes. Can I also put to bed the myth that there is something wrong with Glonass. The key thing to remember is that the more satellites over head the longer you can work in areas with lots of obstructions. Its as simple as that. Single channel is a no no nowadays in the survey world, dual channel allowed me to survey here!- Please excuse my bad language at the end! And the shoddy video, it's from a camera phone. But it gives you the basic idea.
Ignore the link, It seems as though I'll have to find another way to post it. Its showed the Topcon Hiper Pro working very well under quite ridiculous tree cover on a mainline gas pipe (48") we did the as-built survey for. Here is another pic from the same Job. This was typical of where the Dual Channel Topcon wiped the floor vith Single Channel! Top of the 'Hole' 9 metres down!
I have to disagree with you on the Glonass. I use it when necessary, and only when necessary. If there are enough birds for gps then Glonass should be turned off. As far as rotating screen issues I have only seen it with topcon systems. We run one system with Carlson grade and a single mast without any problems and all the trimble accugrade systems function fine. I would only run trimble with automated systems, but if indicate was all I needed I would use carlson.
Thats intersting A S, has it caused issues for you using the Glonass signal? I see elsewhere in this thread others saying they've achieved a better grade using just the GPS alone. I must admit certainly here in the UK I get a quicker fix on my Topcon Hiper Pro kit I use for surveying than with any other GPS kit I've used. Funnily enough I was doing the Topo survey of a site yesterday which I'm using for a demonstration show next week. Looking at the sky plot when surveying a hedgeline with a large copse of trees overhanging the hedge on my side, I had only 4 GPS birds in view plus 3Glonass. The extra few Glonass enabled me to carry on working but when I turned off the Glonass birds, It would stay on float due to there being less than 5 birds in total to get a fix. I suppose it depends heavily on the lie of the land you're working on. If you're working where you have an almost unlimited view of the sky, clearly you'll see and be able to use a greater number of the available GPS birds which is great! I sell my clients a NavCom GPS system if they are working in nice clear sites as it reduces the cost a bit compared to Dual channel. At the end of the day, if your system is producing the results you want then thats all that matters really. It'd be good to drum up some more discussion on this as I'm sure we could all learn a lot from each others experiences With you on the Carlsson Software, excellent kit! Cheers, Flewy
That's what I was syaing. I get better results and tighter grade without glonass, but when the sky is closed due to buildings or trees I turn it on. If accurate grading can not be achieved because of a lack of birds then it is time to puul out the robot and rum machine control that way. I too build models, calibrate sites and support my customers with their equipment. I find that trimble is the easiest to teach someone on and is the least overwhelming. I took a blade hand with 30 years experience who had no desire to use anything other than bluetops and had him humming in one hour. After one day he was hooked and doesn't see the point of working without it. I look back at the six years I spent as a superintendent moving dirt and can only imagine how much more productive we could have been and dollars added to the bottom line. In my experience there are very few jobs too small for machine control.
I don't understand any of this at all. My experience is that the Trimble GNSS solution is definitely more accurate and repeatable than the GPS only one - especially since we installed the latest V4.0 software into our Trimble GNSS receivers and bases earlier this year. I think there are enough good Glonass satellites overhead that this new software is able to choose the best ones (GPS or Glonass) to use - keep in mind that it's not the number of satellites that creates a good positional fix, it is their location in the sky and the integrity of their individual signals. The receiver just has to be smart enough to work out which it should be using.
this is my experince too 5 years ago when i got my first dozer with trimble/accugrade gps i started out only with gps and it was a pain in the but two times every day i could not do anything for about one hour because of to few sattelites and we had some problems with accuracy just before this happened and just after but after half a year i got the new antennas with glonass and after that i has not had any downtime at all period..........and the accuracy increased a lot to so glonass is a must today in my opinion
I had some down time today with my Topcon Hiper Pro's. I had six satellites in view but in a line from east to west! Only took a few mins before things moved on and I could get back to work though. I usually get about half an hour once a week where things go like that but no more. Actually, can you see the Satellite plot on the screen with the Trimble System? Its quite handy to see where everything is overhead relative to your position.
It seems there are mixed results with glonass, but for me recently grade has been tighter without. No doubt downtime is less with glonass and that is a good justification for using it, but when there are 8 or more birds above 10 degrees with gps alone I find it to be a better solution. The equipment I use is trimble r8 gnss and the contractors use sps851 and 880. Everyone will have their own experience and location and time of day do matter.
I found this video interesting in explaining how Topcon's new 3DMC squared system works. Check it out.
I am very surprised technical details on official Topcon web site especially for 3D-MC2 sensor. They tell MC2 sensor combines a gyro, compass and inertial sensor to measure the X, Y & Z position as well as the roll, pitch, yaw and acceleration of the dozer. Gyro is inertial sensor itself. What else unknown inertial sensor they need? Picture of sensor show 6 blue arrows and 3 red circles. Why they need 9 axis while 6 is enough to describe any movement of dozer? Why they use left-hand thumb rule instead usual right to show circles direction?
Who knows? Hello. Who knows? afaik there is only inertial sensor, the gyro, but I could be wrong. As far as right hand rule, this was written by the sales department no doubt, perhaps also the answer to the first question? Please remember that very few really understand this. By this I mean that although we can all use it, but do we understand the display? after all, on some TopCon units it is "only" windows XP, we can all program in C. The GPS units are simple, so simple that most operators can easily replace a SMD if need be. Remember, some of us may understand this far better than the sales and support staff, it is just like being a good operator, it is all about "Want to". By working together, and at the level that WE can understand, we as a group all benefit. Remember, nobody understands what we do better than we do, that is why I listen so carefully to the elders in our community. Remember, teamwork gets the job done.
the gps system is only as good as the model builder i like both systems but the trimble is the only system i've used on a machine and i really like it i never usd a topcon on a machine but the trimble show's both sides of the blade but then again i never used a topcon on a machine
a little update!! as we speak i am getting my D6T installed with the new vrs modem solution so in the future i do not have to use the base station the precision should be the same as with the basestation and it saves us a lot of money because i will always get the correct heights without calling a surveyor or have to get coordinates of the base now i will simply press go on the screen and then i am ready to go nomatter where i am at so another good reason to choose trimble:usa but maybe this vrs solution is only in demark??
GPS vs GLONASS Hello. I have finally completed my research on this matter. First off, GPS vs GLONASS has a lot to do with WHERE you are on the planet. Maximum accuracy is limited in the GPS system, dictated by national security concerns. Civil GPS signals may be degraded, or even unavailable altogether, in some places, this is after all, a Military system. GLONASS is of course, the Russian system. The Russians might not degrade as much in a given area as the US, if at all, but the system is not complete, so, by itself, at this time is not that good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Navigation_Satellite_System Now for Topcon. I have no idea whatsoever about Trimble, have never really used it. True, without motion, the Topcon units will not display a given direction, it can only display a position, just like a portable unit, however I have never had issue with this myself. I simply set ground reference from the base to the rover. Between my exact GPS fix and my relative position from the base I know where I am at all times. Radios. Since I am a radio technician I understand radio very well. First off, antenna gain is only a small part of it. The single most effective thing that can be done to increase range is elevation, why do you think radio towers are so tall? At 900 MHz, with and elevated feed 11.8 dB gain antenna at 5 feet above the cab of my backhoe and the base antenna at 11 feet my effective working range is at 5+ miles. I use LMR 400 cable and follow RF practice very carefully. I also use a 160 MHz radio for the backhaul channel, 2 watts, zero gain but also elevated, 2 to 3 mile range. Remember, none of the radio equipment is stock, external antennas and phasing were only the start. I operate the radio equipment under 47 CFR15/90 rules. The antennas are mounted in such a way as to allow branches to strike them with no damage.
so another good reason to choose trimble but maybe this vrs solution is only in demark?? I sold a VRS equipped Topcon MC2 dozer system and an X63 Excavator System last year. I believe Topcon had the VRS Network option before Trimble did! :usa
topcon in denmark do not have that yet i think trimble is the only one but not for long i now they usually gets the new solutions at the same time
I have been working with Topcon 3D MC since 2005. We have it on 3 graders and two D6R dozers. I was fairly pleased with Topcon until last year we picked up a county road project and decided it was time to give Trimble a shot. As far as road grading is concerned, Trimble out performs Topcon hands down. The software alone is where Trimble has the advantage. I've been painstakingly building 3D alignments with 3D Office for our Topcon systems over the past few years. After being introduced to Terramodel and Site Vision Office I have seen the light. I am able to build highly accurate road models in a fraction of the time and I can also build ONE model for an entire project and never have to worry about different layer depths. Trimble allows the operator to perform a "layered" lift or offset, where only the road prism is affected, the ditches, slopes, and catches remain the same, allowing the operator to grade the entire width of the project, no matter what layer of material they are working as opposed to Topcon's limited vertical offset. As far as radios are concerned, the 900mhz Trimble setup does lack for distance, but can be easily compensated for with repeaters (which are needed with the 450mhz range PDL radios we use with our Topcon setups anyways). Site work I see as being fairly equal. The advantage still going to Trimble with their dual antenna setup. Taking out the factors of having a cross-slope sensor, rotation sensor, and mainfall sensor is obvious. The fewer components you need, the less likely the system will fail. I like Topcon's 3D MC^2, but it only increases the speed of dozer work, most of our fine grading is done with graders. We done some fine grading with dozers, but it's all site work and we have the mmGPS system that seems to work just fine.
that is excactly what i think about trimble too but i just dont have aby experience with topcon only what i hear from others by the way i have just been on a trimble seminar and with the new TBC(trimble business center) which by the way is free for download on the internet you can do the same making templates ditches slopes and so on if only you have the centerline they told us thet TBC is the replacement for sitevision so you will get a more advanced program but it will only work with machune control with software from version 11.0 and forward .. about the radios here in denmark i have been using a 450 mhz radio and i have been working up to 7 km away from it with no problems at all
I have operated both trimble and Topcon systems but never have gotten the chance with the Mc2 yet. The trimble is far superior in my oponion over the topcon older version. We have one dozer out here that has the Mc-2 but haven't gotten a chance to get on it. If you have to cut grade on a blade though and be within a 100th of an inch Topcon's millimeter system is pretty amazi ng. Have done over 8 miles of highway with it so far and only one spot so far where it was 2inches to high. it's pretty amazing accuraacy.
I used to work for a machine control dealer and now I create the data used for all machine control equipment. There isn't much difference in the two major systems (Trimble & Topcon) and I'm guessing the others. The biggest difference is the service with your dealer. How well equiped is their warehouse for replacements and their staff's knowledge of the equipment. Service is king with machine control (though the data is a close second).
From my experience, Topcon support is not the best but I have never tried Trimble.
In regards to gps on excavator To check a grade for height. Do you put your cutting edge/ teeth on ground or bucket flat on ground. How do you check the cut and fill levels is what I am asking. Also when your digging with an excavator does it tell you how much to cut as your digging, like in real time or do you have to check the cut level, then dig and then recheck.
Teeth down, and it's real time grades just like on a dozer. I've got a pic of the monitor somewhere, I'll have to see if I can find it
So does your bucket have to be fully curled back? does it matter which angle your teeth are in realtion to the ground or does the teeth need to be facing the ground on the ready to dig angle.
To be accurate yes, but you can use that fully opened bucket to clean up in front of you as well. The computer does register the various boom, bucket, stick movements (sensors) and will calculate where the teeth are in relation to the recievers on the counterweight. If you curl the bucket in and set it on the ground with the teeth in the air it will tell you a different grade then if you put the teeth down so they touch the ground. I couldnt load the photo directly (Site still having issues I guess), but here is a photo of the monitor in the cab (for a trimble unit) http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5429/dsci0333ve2.jpg Hope that helps:drinkup
Yes this has been very helpful thankyou very much
I was a die hard Trimble fan about 10 days ago but after running and witnessing this 3D-MC2 in person its defiantly the cats meow. 2nd gear full throttle in automatic no problems. It's really amazing how fast and accurate it it. As for the old MC system topcon has its pretty much useless.
trimbles system can do the excact same thing i have NEVER had any trouble with it and if i only get a little material in front of the blade i can go as fast as the dozer can push in the menu there is a function to speed up the hydraulic valves so it fits different kinds of dirt so i really cant see whats so fantastic about topcon??
Really neither is probably better than the other but the new topcon system I was very impressed with. We have never been able to get grades as accurate with any other system then with this new one. When we do Mainline we finish it with a dozer and GPS then come back with a M blade with milimeter GPS to put it on grade. We have a tolerance of 2 hundreths and only the millimeter is able to do that.
Topcon's 3DMC2 is fundamentally different from other grade control systems, -including Topcon's own. The 3DMC2 uses a solid-state inertial sensor mounted where other systems mount a single or dual slope sensor. It measures slope, pitch, yaw, roll and acceleration in every direction. This results in a system with less lag in the computation of blade position and this enables it to give correction at 100 times per second versus most other system that correct 10 times/sec. Valve tuning is another subject all-together. All systems allow for valve tuning. Unfortunately, sometimes a bad valve calibration reflect poorly on the brand. The manufacturer thus gets 'blamed' for a botched service job. All things (machine, speed, material, location, tuning, etc.) being equal, a system that corrects at 100Hz and measures position and acceleration in many axis should theoretically outperform a 'blade slope-only' system operating at 10Hz. Difference in performance should be proportional to speed of the machine. It will be interesting to make this comparison when more of Deere's 764HSD hit the market. These come prepared for either Trimble's GCS900 or Topcon's 3DMC2 and if there are significant differences in performances between these two system, it will be evident to the users of this machine.
one word leica. cost a little more but worth it in costomer service and it is a better machine.
What does the 3DMC2 system cost to setup on a dozer?
it will depend on if the dozer is factory gps ready or not? if it is all cables plugs and valves are allready mounted and in that case it will cost a topcon guy a hour or so to mount and calibrate otherwise it will take a couple off days :Banghead
I should have been more specific. What does the MC2 equipment cost? I have a call into my local top con dealer but they haven't gotten back to me yet. I can install everything myself.
dont know the prices in us but i think here in europe it will cost from 30-47000 euros depending on whether you want lightbarguidance only or with automatic blade control and if you want it with one or two antennas ?? take my advise and go for auto and two antennas and pay the extra money for topcon two install it that way you are sure off getting the warranty and better backup after why not go for trimbles dual gps ive used it for 6 years everyday and its the best i have come over yet never had one day down and many times i have been able to go on where topcon and leica systems cant get enough coverage
we tried out both on dozers. trimble is built alot better and nicer to work with. we would never by any things else.
If you are curious about the various 3D grade control systems on the market, you can visit The Kellogg Report. It has very detailed comparisons of systems for excavators, dozers and graders with in-depth explanations and illustrations. Currently, Trimble, Topcon, Caterpillar AccuGrade, Leica, Carlson and Prolec are included. More will be added at a later date. http://www.kelloggreport.com
Cst's Accugrade (GPS) is made for them by Trimble, they are pretty much the same system.
You're right: Trimble's GCS900 and CAT's AccuGrade products are developed and manufactured by Caterpillar Trimble Control Technologies LLC, -a joint venture between the two companies. However similar they may be, though, they are marketed as two different systems under different brand names so the comparison treats them as such. It's also important to remember that due to firmware and software restrictions, the components are not necessarily cross-compatible.
True. Previous to V10.8,software, the Trimble 3-D box, CD430, and the AccuGrade 3-D, CD700, had some portability issues. The AccuGrade sytem on an ARO (Accugrade Ready Option) machine, utilised Cat safety systems, such as parking brake, and transmission neutral (and out of seat switch on M series motor grader) to prevent engaging automatics, unless there was an operator in the seat and the machine was ready to work. But with V10.8 and later, they are completely portable, CD430 on an ARO Accugrade machine, or CD700 on a "Trimble ready" machine. All that is necessary is to save your measure up"machine settings" and the features you have loaded to the display, on the compact flash card, and take it to the other display.
What does that accugrade cost on cat 262c? Someone told me cat wants $5000 to enable software to get it working? Please let me know,
CAT 262C skid steer w/ AccuGrade answered here: Compare AccuGrade to competitive systems
Your CAT dealer will charge a fee to enable the SEA, Software Enabled Attachment, in order to allow the AccuGrade automatics to function. It is, by far the cleanest install and works smooth! A sytem from LeveBest can be installed on a non-ARO Skid steer, with an external E H valve and there is no SEA charge.
Right now we have tested the Trimble and the Topcon 3D setup on John Deere's 764 HSD which demands the fastest grade response of all machines. The Topcon is much faster at adjusting to grade than the Trimble setup. However other than that they work great at doing what they designed for, I just know that response time on the Trimble is slower. As far as accuracy they were exactly the same, I mean you can't get much better than a 10th of an inch. I mean really a 10th of an inch is awesome! We rovered several spots and both were at a 10th, that's pretty crazy. The only time we had a problem was when we were at full speed with 764, the Trimble would miss some high spots on grade. I guess this was a wild post of gps and laser equipment, lol
DBarron doesn't say which Topcon system he tried on the 764, but most likely it was Topcon's 3D-MC2. This system is quite different from Trimble's GCS900 in that it uses an inertial measurement unit (IMU) mounted on the blade. This sensor can measure pitch, slope, yaw and acceleration in every direction which allows for a system with much faster response. (100Hz correctional rate versus 10Hz). Leica's PowerGrade 3D is the only other system on the market to offer this. You can learn about the IMU technology here: You can compare all three 3D dozer systems here:
t_dirt are you still involved with Topcon GPS?
mc2 is great! Its amazing the difference. We are a Topcon Company BUT I just purchased a 2006 Cat D6R with Trimble Accugrade. Does anyone know if my topcon base will talk to the trimble? Or do I have to purchase a trimble base and rover?
i would not reccommend to use the topcon base with trimble our experience here with common base stations are not good at all
@ PWR, yes i am still selling Topcon, Business is good, I am super excited about the MC2 Motor grader!! PM if you need something. We have a very big machine control inventory!! @ Grademan, that question can not be answered without more info. What type of base do you have?? Is it UHF, or SS (915SS)? What type of radio does the Cat Sys, have?? If they are both UHF, then Yes, UHF's, can be set the same and the "language" can be set the same, CMR, CMR+, RTCM2.XX, RTCM3.XX. If not you may be able to add some auxillary radios and broadcast both. There is a company that builds some cool cables to hook up different brands!! I am not that familiar going that way, but our Topcon Systems will run just fine off a Trimble UHF base, Topcon has Trimble radio setting. Topcon seems to be alot more friendly working with the competition than Cat.
Topcon is pretty sweet. my 345d had it. some issues but over all it seems like a good system.
It is worth remembering that aglasergps IS a TRIMBLE DEALER..... Btw I know someone with 3 Topcon systems and his 2 (older) Trimble systems are for sale - ??? Btw, I don't have either so I am unbiased....
I know this is a question within a question and it seems to be repetitive but i am about to purchase my first gps/site positioning system. First question is obviously Trimble or Topcon? I am leaning towards Trimble simply because we buy all CAT equip and it makes the most sense. But do they have anything to compare to the 3DMC2 system? Does Trimble have anything new coming out soon because teh GCS900 system is about 2 years old now. I am just starting with a Base station and rover and just need some guidance. Thanks.
This is the package i am looking to buy...used from another contractor.. Asking price is $35,000. Is this a deal? is there anything better than this right now? SPS851 Base Station, GPS/L2C 900 mhz radio, GLONASS Option Zephyr Model 2 GPS antenna for base station SPS881 Rover, GPS/L2c 900 mhz radio, GLONASS Option, w/ pole and bipod Trimble Tablet w/SCS900 installed Terramodel Software Roading Special - includes Highway, CAD, COGO, Contour, Site Roadway, 2D to 3D model conversion option
The answer to that question is no. CAT and Trimble do not offer a system with an Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) like Topcon's 3D-MC2. There is another system that does, however. Leica's PowerGrade 3D offer their SP Technology add-on for dozers only. A full comparison of all four systems can be found here: 3D Machine Control Comparison
Actually, Topcon is offered by many CAT dealers... as a Topcon master dealer, maybe we are somewhat biased, but we have a lot of testimonials from CAT users, see Topcon Testimonials .
We have found the big difference between Topcon and Trimble to be the support from the dealer. We have a Topcon HiperLite + but have not received the training or support promised by the salesman. Has been pretty disappointing.
does topcon make a tablet comparable to the trimble tablet? Everything that ive found has the small display
In my area, the southeast, Topcon Supports it's products much better than Trimble!!! Call your salesman and tell him you want training and support!!! Mine call me all the time. Also, check with the boss and see if it came with Training and Phone support. I often sell gear at a reduced price. Topcon does not currently offer a tablet, However most programs can be run on any tablet you could purchase.
The first GPS I used was in 2004 and it was Topcon TS with the FC100 and Topcon 3d. It was very easy to use and learn. My company then went to Trimble 4 years ago, and although it was a bit more to learn, it turned out to top the Topcon system. Now I am with a new company, and they have the Topcon system with the Agtek field software. As for hardware, it still doesn't compare to Trimble, but the Agtek software is par to none. Thoroughly integrated with the Earthworks 3D software, it also has many implements very useful in the field, including Gradepilot, CADpilot, and SitePilot. Topcon, as well, has superior customer relations and support. I am still learning the GPS applications, but they are pretty easy to master. Sent from my Google G2x using Tapatalk for Android.
We have built models on two airport runways where accugrade was used for guidance. On both projects the contractor met all grade requirements without rework with machine control alone. My experience is that Trimble takes the most abuse without issue and works consistently.
I've read some of the posts because I'm looking to switch to Trimble just because my company is looking to start buying more CAT machinery. From what i understand and correct me if i'm wrong all the CAT equipment is going to come with GPS already wired, so from a cost point i'm going to have to pay for topcon to rewire the CATS which costs more....right? and if they are compatible with each other i could run trimble and topcon at the same time on the same gps base and not have issues?
stoltee I do not believe Trimble and Topcon are compatible. You will need to get a new base and receivers to run Trimble. I now CAT comes wired to run Trimble not sure what would need to be done to run Topcon. Hope this helps you out.
Many CATs today come 'plumbed and wired' for CAT's own AccuGrade machine control system which is built for them by Trimble. However, Topcon may very well interface directly to the machines as well. You can plug their system directly into the new M and several of the new dozers. -Check with your dealer to see which models are currently supported. If you are buying the latest models, it's quite likely that you would not have to install any redundant parts. You should be able to run the mixed machine control systems from a single base station. -Worst case you hook two different radios up to the GPS receiver. Again, your local dealer(s) can tell you more. Learn everything about 3D Machine Control at The Kellogg Report
Further to my post above, here are two press releases detailing how Topcon interfaces directly to the new CATs: Cat M interface T-series dozers Compare 3D Grade Control systems from all the manufacturers
The easiest way to get Trimble machine control to run off a Topcon base is to run a HPB450 external radio off the Topcon base. You also need to replace the 900 radio on the machine with a 450. I've set up dozens of machines this way.
Harry Welcome to HEF, and thanks for the tip. I have had the same question in the past, and now have the answer if it comes up again.
I will give you my opinion what I like for the gps I like topcon I have it on all 4 excavators and both my dozers so to be buying another dozer so it will also have it on it I like toocon that's my opinion
Were running a 140M trimble with the remote cell base that is 13 miles away alongside an 8 year old topcon system on our 140H. So far they have been within a couple hundredths of each other. We recently set up a repeater for the trimble machines because of a couple of blind spots. The Topcon system is running off of an onsite base. Our 8 year old fc100 data collector is still dead accurate also. We are also running our 8R with the same old Topcon system and a 345D with the cell base Trimble. I think the Trimble is more operator friendly, but I think the Topcon is better tech.
It seems that Topcon 3dmc2 is usually a single Antenna system. Can you get this in a dual antenna set up? If it is a single antenna how can you run automatics on both sides of the blade?
because it has a slope sensor
So 3dmc2 does everything with a single antenna that trimble does with 2 antennas? Sounds like this 3dmc2 is hard to beat.
yes and it does it at twice the speed
The number of antennae on a 3D machine control system is a separate issue from the use of an inertial measurement unit. An explanation of the pros and cons of single vs. double mast can be found here: One antenna, two antennae? An explanation of a 3D machine control system with an IMU can be found here: IMUs in grade control systems
sorry but thats not the case the two antenna setup is by far the most accurate system and faster in the way that when you change direction the system allways know excactly where your blade is where the one antenna system (doesnt matter if it is 3DMC2)will first have to calculate positions of your blade and the direction of machine an excample is a dozer grading on a 2:1 slope and its crabbing along all the time..in this case ONLY the two antennas can give you correct guidance NOT the 3dmc2 and NOT leica on top of that i can tell you that Trimble has just released their firmware version 12.2 with grade max for dozers that gives you more than twice calcultion speed of glonass signals in the antennas which gives you better speeds and grading capabilitys than 3dmc2 just by adding software instead of adding extra sencors and other gadgets. this new software also gives yoy 5 adjustable settings that you can adjust while you are grading in automatic mode without any delay in speed and with Trimbles connected site and connected machine everything works wireless with two way data and as built data synced back to office in the background havent herad or seen any other brand that can do the same
What I have heard from both Trimble and Topcon as well as a few equipment manufacturers, it won't be too long until the antenna's are gone altogether. Seems the industry is actually heading towards full-automation and full-autonomy, meaning in 20 or 30 years their won't be Operators. CAT, Volvo and Liebherr reps have told me they're working towards complete machine integration controlled by both US and Russian GPS with millimeter precision and the mast mounted antenna's will be a thing of the past. The antenna's will be atop the cab and barely visible. It appears that US and Russian military's are improving their systems to the point where the private sector will soon have access to what they consider "old" technology. This same old technology allows for GPS guidance of missles and bombs and affords pinpoint accuracy on delivery. You'll no longer need grade stakes for anything, Dozers, Wheel Loaders, Excavators will all know where they are and what they need to do. Yes, I know they can do this now but not to the degree that's coming. There'll come a time just before full-autonomy when Operator's sit in a Command Center and remotely control all machines. That should be very interesting...
Just an add-on to my original post. The systems that are in development and coming soon to a jobsite near you will be 2, 3, and 4-axis systems which can determine a machines location and attitude with absolute precision and accuracy. The sensors being developed are wireless and either Radio Frequency Identification (RFid) or BlueTooth Technology (BTT) which will eliminate wiring altogether and they will be hardened or armoroed to deal with the rigors of heavy equipment applications. Since LCD screens are becoming more and more prevalent in machines there will come a time when all necessary information will be displayed in one location, and it is rumored that Heads Up Displays (HUD) will be coming too.
Have you used version 12.2? I'm eagerly waiting to try it, but the only CB460 (required for 12.2) we have is in a D6T that's down with engine problems right now. All the others are CB430's.
yes i have and it works incredible good you can set your valve speed while you are going in automatic so you can see imediate result and the valve speed has five different settings now over the older versions two we are on our way to upgrade all the CB460 in denmark to this and there is good functionality in it for excavators too
you can set your valve speed while gradding in the 3dmc2 now, and 3dmc2 has 6 ways to change your valve speed, 2 for tilt and 4 for up and down. Topcon's system can fine grade to less then a tenth of speeds up to 11 mph! Trimble cannot, yet anyways
How much does the gcs900 cost to set up on a tractor and bucket? We used it on a bunker site on a hire buy option but we spent 40,000 in hire to the get hit with a qoute to buy it at $157,000 is this what it cost everyone or am I being completely ripped off?
what do you mean by "tractor and bucket" ? here in denmark we sell a complete 3D system for a excavator with dual antennas and modem for vrs and two way data for around 330000 danish kroner which is around 55000 usd and this includes basic operator training
Sorry were a small earthmoving company in Australia we were running trimbles gcs900 system on our scraper so the same system on a dozer or grader and I have seen it on a excavator and it looks the same but with different slope senses but as I said we received a qoute for the complete package being the scraper fully equipped with the gps unit, slope sense, display screen and a base station but yer I don't know if it should be costing 157,000 when the australian dollar is stronger the the US dollar right now? Your price I'm assuming is without a base station but still seems like you would be alot cheaper then what we are getting charged
it seems you have got a high price,but again if your price is with a basestation it might be acceptable anyway.we would sell a dozer system for around 75000 usd and i think that would be the excact same system for a scraper with dual gps our price without base station but with modem for receiving basecorrections from vrs(3G)
I finally got to work with trimble gcs900 v12.2 on a new D6N we bought. Apart from originally hating D6N's over D6T's, I'll just let that part slide for now. So I'm at this job where we are building a cell for contaminated waste.There are quite a few of these being built in the oil rich regions of the world. So anyways, I'm running this new D6N and not sure if I'm liking it or not. I'm very fussy and very critical about almost anything. I usually run a D6T, but my boss' asked if I would try out this D6N since it would be our first and let them know what I thought. build a clay liner that is 1.1M thick in the cell. It has been undercut to this level last year when the project started, and then put on hold during the winter. During initial testing of the gps system, all goes according to spec. Our only complaint is the lack of cellular service in the area which pisses all of us off OK, our initial surveys and gps are up to snuff, but then came a sidewinder..... The engineer assigned to the site was a female and don't get me wrong......I have no problems with women, but this one seemed to be extra anal So anyways back to the beginning of the post............ Here I was with a brand new install and I watched the SiTech installer do his job and talked to him brieflyj. Again, this was all before I really started to test the system. I worry about other companies that don't test their install's properly and end up being a way out. So being the anal **** that I am, I ask our surveyor on the job to set me up with a hub stake so I can check in to it and make sure I'm within specs. This hub will include the northing, easting, and elevation so I can acurately check the system's acuracy.It seems that most operators only check their verticals if they are in dispute, but never think of checking their horizontals which are equally important. So hear I am sitting here in Alberta waiting for the press that put me here, and nothing is happenning.
Sooooo.....I have no idea what I was thinking about in that last sentence... LOL I think I past out about then in my drunken stupor. Posting permissions say I may edit my posts, but I see no edit button. What am I missing? . So anyways, to continue..... After one of many rain storms we've had, I decide to go and check in to that hub stake I got the surveyor to set up. I had him put it in a wide open spot where I can approach it from almost any direction. What I found is that my horizontals are indeed out to lunch. If I approach the stake facing either north or south, my northing is out by as much as 35cm and the easting is very close. If I approach it facing east or west, it's my easting that is out, but the northing is very close. I don't know which versions have this problem, but after that I tried a D6T with a cb430 box and version 11.4 and it had the same issue. For most jobs this won't make a difference, but if you are dozing towards the edge of a pad, it may tell you that the edge of your pad is slightly off etc. We reported the problem to SiTech and they are waiting to hear back from trimble. Since then I have upgraded that dozer to version 12.3, but that issue hasn't been addressed. On a brighter note, I do love the speed increase that came with the new versions. It is wonderful being able to go full throttle in second gear and not worry about the gps not reacting fast enough and gouging holes or start bouncing. In fact I tried dozing in 3rd gear and for the most part it went pretty well. I wouldn't do that often, but it was just a few minute test for my own curiosity. I would definately encourage people to upgrade to 12.2 or newer if they can. It's unfortunately that the older cb430 box's are too slow for the new versions. SiTech is trying to get us to upgrade our cb430 box's to cb460's, but they want like $20k each :/ A few days ago one of our super's told me we're going to demo a JD 850K with a topcon gps system and he wanted me to run it, so I'm looking forward to that. It'll be interesting to see which I end up liking the best. I think it will be trimble but I'm trying to go into it with an open mind. Not sure when it's going to happen yet. I'll report back here when it does.
i have to ask you how you check the readings over the stake ?? do you just raise your blade and put it on top of the stake?? (this only works if you have installed a pitch sensor) if you do not have a pict sensor you have to proceed like this 1.create a new plane high enough to clear the stake 2.put blade in outo mode and and approach the stake untill blade is right over it then go out and measure manually yo the stake and then check readings on screen if you have pitch sensor it doesnt matter how you approach glad to hear you too like the new grade max i was blown away in raunheim when we tested how it worked
t3chw00di By your description, it seems your set up information may be off. You should verify the measurements from the antenna to the cutting edge.
I agree with the last post about the measurements in machine setup from antennae to blade edge. Another issue with GPS and this spot measurements friends is heading. If you have a single GPS and sit still for some time your machine will lose its idea of direction of travel " heading" and this will throw off NE coord's Check it quick, only check it when you have moved forward onto the spot and do not reverse to get closer to the spot (benchmark) and always remember that I am the expert for GPS and Laser machine guidance, and all will be well and good in your job.
I've used Topcon for 15 years and Trimble for one year and one year is all I needed on the Trimble product to know that Topcon is the superior product. Pros for Topcon 1. Topcon is more user friendly 2. You can utilize grid lines for staking big contour areas at any increments 3. Your cursor stays in the middle of the screen at all times 4. You can edit point descriptions, elevations, layers at any time 5. You can measure a topo shot for x amount of seconds to get a more accurate reading on elevation with out creating a point 6. Base is wireless just like rover 7. With Layers Topcon keeps a running total # of your individual utilities shots and remembers your descriptions in a drop down window of utilities with out having to type them in every time you take a different utility shot 8. Topcon rover uses the same files as the machine rovers 9. If your color blind or you have a problem seeing lighter colors like yellow you can change the color of your line work 10. The guidance method is more versatile 11. If you build a flat plane or sloping surface with your machine rover you will maintain your line work Trimble you will loose you map design, "not good"witch we all know that's a big deal 12. I love the layer system better than job files when all you have to do is uncheck or check a layer instead of loading different job files. Topcon only needs one antenna mask because their slope sensors are more advanced Than Trimbles that's why they have to sell you two masks their sensors can't keep up with the cross slope. If for some reason your not matching your slope side than until you figure it out just follow your smart (mask) side over than manually dial your slope to match each pass or just manaully run the slope side to match and there is always the sonar you can use in conjunction with your GPS antenna mask just saying. I've never had trouble selling my grade with Topcon rock or sub grade also try to build 2:1 ditches using two masks good luck. I hope that helps, when in doubt test them your self at least I gave you some features to compare
You need better training on your Trimble System. Also, The Trimble GCS900 machine system can be moved from a dozer, to a excavator, to a grader in about 10 minutes. As long as your machines are Trimble ready, you take the control box, pop it out of the dash, 4 10mm bolts on the radio and unlock the GPS receivers of the masts and put it on another machine. You CANNOT do this with a Topcon system. I don't sell Trimble, bit I have used Topcon and Trimble for over 10 years and Trimble is far superior to Topcon.
Ok Harry lets do this one last time 1. Machine controls and rover are more user friendly the learning curve is definitely much shorter 2. Just maybe I don't want to follow any of the design lines or my grid lines need to extend beyond any of the design lines With just two points I can create grid lines in any direction and any length I want 3. With Topcon I don't have to do any of that Pan,Zoom to keep my cursor in the middle of the screen Trimble your cursor can walk off the screen. Thanks for confirming my point about being user friendly 4. You can't hardly elaborate on this one, you can not edit a point descriptions after you have already logged the point 5. I use the measure topo shot to get a more accurate reading to set a hub or check a survey hub elevation, there is no need to record everything you shoot its called grade setting 6. I have a SPA 855 model with a Zephyr Geodetic model 2 GPS antenna with takes two wires not counting the one that goes to the auxiliary battery when I work more than 12 hrs. With happens a lot when working with the paving crew doing IC rolling. Now let's get to charging base radio, rover batteries witch only last 4 hour and SPS 985 that will be three more cables 7. This one you made my point again about user friendly, Sounds to me like a lot of navigation and work. Trimble keeps a running total of all your shots regardless of the description of the shots unless you build separate work orders for each utility Topcon separates your number based on the layer your using at the time so you individually know how many water valves or storm man holes you have, Trimbles utilities are all lumped together 8. I've been building jobs with Topcon for 15 years and never had a problem with a file being to big, If you had a big job and you put contours on at .10 intervals you might freeze the screen MAYBE 9. Good model makers use all colors unless you specify different the fact is that if you did have problems for what ever reason you can change the color of your line work with Topcon 10. The guidance method on Trimble blade has three locations on Topcon you have a slide bar that allows you to put it any where on the blade 11. Now you a just flat out wrong, you can not build a flat plan or slope surface an maintain your line work if so give me and this forum step by step how to do it, if you can than Trimble wants to hire you 12. Layers are no different than work orders just easier to use, All you have to do is uncheck or check the box of the layer you want on you screen. Pretty simple 13. One more thing since we're on the subject, Trimble points are all little black generic dots you would not know what those dot were unless you filled you screen up with all those descriptions. Topcon has icons little dot, big dot, circles, star, triangle, cross and you have a assortment of colors to choose from so I know what my points are with out the descriptions so I might just add the elevation if needed I will admit Trimble does have an advantage on the slopes but if you follow your smart side down the slope and match your pass with your slope side you got it made. Topcon can also move their machine controls from one equipment to the other this tell me you do not know nothing about Topcon product like you quoted earlier Harry you have only used Trimble and if you have ever used Topcon it must of been just a demo session You know Trimble and Topcon are both great products Topcon is just the superiors one, The best thing about Trimble is their Trimble Business Center I use it to build all my models great product love it