Started happening on monday, even with the below zero temps truck is running warm and will hit 190F like nothing. Coolant is not flowing at all from what I can tell. Upper rad hose is ice cold at rad, lower hose is hot. Am I right to assume it's thermostat, plugged rad, or water pump? My thought was pull thermostat check it, if that's not it pull rad hoses and see if I get flow through rad? Other then that i'm not sure how to go about checking water pump? Or if those two other things check out good if it even could be anything else? A few months ago I swapped the coolant from that old green stuff to new red. I flushed it with water twice and ran it, and the water was nice and clean so I figured I did a decent job. No idea if that's in anyway related to my issue now.
If you're going far enough to inspect the thermostat I'd just replace it.
Agree 100%.
A executive from Stant that I was chatting with at a trade show told me that it is tough to get more than three years out of a stat with the bio friendly antifreezes of today. Fortunately, most of the time they stick open.
Hopefully the stat housing retaining bolts will come loose, those can stick shut.
I'm a little slow here. I can't find the brand of truck, model, or engine type on this post.
B model Cat--IIRC Western Star.
Best test is to leave stat out and see how cool it runs on a short trip, should be hard to hit 130* without a stat in this weather.
Yes sorry 92 Western Star with Cat 3406B.
That makes total sense, will do that, thanks.
So got the thermostat out, seems fine. Got a new one and the gaskets. Now i'm wondering, should I still put it back together without thermostat and run it to test, or should I dig into the water pump? I can open the old one no problem, I highly doubt there was anything wrong with it. Since I already have the alternator moved it's not many more bolts to get the water pump cover off now.
Get a pot of water on the stove to almost boiling, put a piece of wire around old stat and submerge to see if it opens. You would have to remove manifold from pump to oil cooler and remove pump as a whole then remove rear impeller cover to check shape of pump. IIRC.
If the thermostat opened at all, then the upper hose would be hot just from the hot water rising. Checking the thermostat in hot water and finding it won't open will give you the confidence to replace it, without testing the engine without a thermostat.
3406B’s always have bad water pumps and we’ve kicked that dead horse many times on here. I’m certain you will find a bad impeller. If you are lucky, it probably has one of those original fiber impellers known for slipping on the shaft. Paid my mortgage and fed my kids changing 3406B water pumps and broken exhaust manifold bolts.
If you are checking water pump make sure you also look at the inlet face of the engine oil cooler. That is where all the gunk in the system is filtered out before it gets to the block. I have seen many plugged there. You will have the inlet pipe off the cooler if you are checking the water pump impeller.
I have always wondered why Cat hasn’t improved their manifold studs on 3406 - c15 and 3306 engines. Definitely a weak spot.
Was your heater working when the top radiator hose was cold? If the heater is working, then the water pump is working, right?
Confirmed thermostat works fine with water, I put new one in for comparison also and it's exactly the same in the amount in opens. Yes the heater works great. I am going to pull lower rad hose and flush rad and just make sure it's not plugged before I tear into water pump.
It could that the lower hose is bad. Perhaps the inside of the hose has come loose and when the pump is pulling coolant, the hose is collapsing, creating a flow blockage.
Water pump is out and seems fine. I held one side and can’t get other to turn, there is no play at all. From the looks of it and the way most bolts were bad, I suspect it was replaced at some point. Water flows out the rad fine, I mean there is some crap in there but I can’t see where it’s my issue? Only thing I can think of is maybe the thermostat was stuck and me opening it with a screwdriver broke it free?
Here’s pics of inside rad. I pulled all rad hoses too and they were fine also.
What was the highest temp reading on the gauge? Did it ever push coolant past the cap? Does it have a shunt hose from top tank to thermostat housing that's in good condition?
This week since the issue started 190 was the highest, that's the temp when the light comes on so I turn the fan on. No doesn't push coolant out past cap. Yes that hose looks in really good shape, as do all the hoses.
IMO-you may as well put it back together at this point. What is the thermostat rated at temp wise- 195* or 205*? Use a infrared gun and check temp at front of cylinder head just behind stat housing. You have checked most all of the common boxes.
New one is 180, old one I was told was 180 so I kept it the same. Will do.
Was the sneaky water regulator metal backed rubber seal still intact?
Is that the seal by the thermostat that separates the two compartments? If so it looked fine. I got a new one though.
A cool trick to see if your regulator is working good is to look at the wear mark on the regulator. The wear mark should measure 3/8” and be nice and shiny. And if the wear mark is missing, the seal is missing or messed up.
Too bad I wasn’t closer. I could have it diagnosed in 1 hour including the time for coffee. I might only charge you travel, because you appear to be a cool Guy. You own a B model, so you must be cool. You are cool, but apparently your engine is not so cool.
Diagnosing over heating 3406B’s is the only things I’m good at. Trained by the best. Hundreds of hours of Caterpillar marine, EPG, earthmoving , truck and industrial cooling system diagnostics. One time, Cat Truck engine analyst credentials. Like a cooling system whisperer. Spent years neglecting my health, family and friends to help other people keep their crap running and profitable. Sitting in my single-wide with a labradoodle ,**** posting on the HEF with you guys on a Friday night because you are the only friends I have. I’ve explained the cooling system troubleshooting process numerous times on the HEF. But, nobody listens. Put it back together and purchase a infrared thermometer and a can of flat black spray paint. Report back and I’ll walk you through it.
I guess we've been told.
What did the oil cooler inlet face look like ? Clean? Or like this one?
Wow. That’s super gross. Brown sludge from hell. I get it. Shops can bilk a lot of time from their customers for overheat issues and never find the root cause. Its very easy and non-evasive to measure water in, water out and water mix temps on a 3506B. Forget about water mix. Make it super easy and check water in and water out. According to the tmi data, that engine has a 12F degree temp rise. So, there should be a 12F degree drop across the radiator. If the Delta T is more than 12F, it’s a flow problem. If the Delta T is less than 12F, capacity problem. At least, you have a general idea where to look before taking stuff apart . According to Caterpillar SIMS data, the last time I had access, overheating was 60% of warranty engine complaints. In the dealer world, we focused resources on technician development in that area.
Sounds like a plan. At one point I did question why I didn't have the guy who I share shop space with do it for me, but I do generally enjoy fixing my own stuff and learning more about it. I've never had a overheating issue before so it's a first for me. I've replaced a water pump once that dumped the coolant out, and a thermostat when another truck wouldn't heat up, both easy straightforward stuff but that's my extent of working on them.
Oil cooler did not look anything like that picture, I didn't look too closely at it but there was only minor dirt on it.
I'm going to say we all failed at this one. 190 is not overheating in any way. Measuring the radiator temperature will tell you nothing because we can't be sure the thermostat is open at 190, if you had 210, then the thermostat would be open and you could see what's happening. It could be that the old thermostat just started working correctly, hadn't been closing all the way before.
Yes at 190 overheating is the wrong word, but regardless the thermostat would be opening before that being a 180 and even at 190 it would sit at that temp and not move without the fan on, even with the fan it took forever to drop and last week driving it it was immediately noticeable how much quicker it would heat up and not cool down. The only reason it didn't see much higher temps is because it was like 10F outside. The light comes on just before 190 and fan kicks itself on around 190.
Your overheat light comes on before the fan does? In my(sub-tropical) world, 190 isn't an overheat. Mack service manuals used to say that a diesel engine should run 100 degrees above ambient temperature. They even gave the example of a truck crossing the desert.
Your overheat light comes on before the fan does? In my(sub-tropical) world, 190 isn't an overheat. Mack service manuals used to say that a diesel engine should run 100 degrees above ambient temperature. They even gave the example of a truck crossing the desert.
Barely, like depending on the day it's maybe 10-20 seconds sooner. It generally sticks around 170 on a normal day of not working too hard. The temps do seem low as that seems to be normal operating temp for other diesels i've had.
Have you checked the sender for the overheat light?
Should also check the engine temp with a temp gun, sounds like your guage is wrong
No, can't say I know where it is even. Will have to see if I can find it. Yea I am going to just to get an idea if it's right or not. I've seen 215 a few times on really hot days. It doesn't act wonky or anything, but it could be off.
It would be funny, if it turns out that the 30 year old instrumentation is inaccurate.
Pretty much got it back together today, started putting coolant back in and block heater plug started to leak so I said fawk it for the day and left, no idea why it's leaking now, I never touched it. What a pain in the *** to put back though with parts have to go back in certain order and no room to work, I think I spent about 6 hours on it. Here is what the oil cooler looked like, not clean but not anywhere as bad as that picture.
Plugged.
Should have had high oil temp, a clean new below.
Well there you go! That is definitely plugged. Should be able to clean it by blowing backwards through it. I wonder how long we would have gone in circles on this if you hadn’t posted that picture?
Gonna throw this out there, see who chews it up. Radiator from KW had failing insert fins between the tubes, they get to a corroded level make poor contact to the tubes so lose the Heat Sink, my radiator they were crumbling as well. Rad Shop guy noted they were well beyond where could get much of any cooling thru the core, perhaps 20-30% functional heat sink where was re-cored. Look at core at ends where meets tanks for degradation of the thin copper fins and how much from there into body of core are that way. Could be not blocked tubes but piddly poor heat sink capability. Will not transfer much heat if tubes have no additional heat sink.
That is common with the later Beta welded cores I was told.
Never seen that in trucks, but I've seen plenty of cars with fins falling off like hair on a melted roadkill coon. That would show up as low temperature drop of the coolant through the radiator, UNLESS the inside of the tubes was equally blocked so you had equally reduced water and air flow.
Cooler looks like bunch of worms, maggots and other insects and creatures from the tar pit.
Well an update on this, after getting it all back together and starting it, and the oil cooler leaking oil I gave up and am having the guy I share shop space tear it back apart to fix it. Beyond fed up with it, I know it's a lot my fault for not doing seals but what a pain in the ***. I have no idea why but I didn't replace any seals on the oil cooler. He's also going to check the water pump just to make sure it's fine. I really don't know why I even bothered touching it to begin with, he charges me $110-$120/hr can't remember exactly, I make more then that running my equipment and am busy, i'm way better off letting him fix it properly and quicker then I ever could.
A lot of times it saves a big hassle and often is cheaper and faster having someone experienced fix it.
Well my screw up was o-ring didn't seat properly and to make it worse, cracked the part, $500 for a used one. It's all back together and said it's working fine, haven't seen the bill but know it will be well over $1000 all over $20 worth of o rings. Needless to say, I won't be touching anything engine related on the truck again, if I have an issue i'll just let him fix it.
Sometimes **** happens. Even the best break stuff now and then.
That's a fact!
Been there myself, Many times, some times just cannot be helped.
I don't think I broke it initially, when I started it the first time and it leaked I re-checked the bolts and snugged them up a bit and felt it compress, I assumed at the time it was the o-ring squishing, but now it was likely that piece breaking. Yea I can say this is the worst i've ever done, so I guess i'm not doing too bad. I've had shops mess up my stuff far more times and much worse then this. I'm trying to get in the habit of making sure I take the time to do repairs properly and fix it right the first time instead of rushing.
Well turns out it's much worse then I thought. Today was the first day using the truck again and it's pushing coolant out the rad, and all of a sudden blowby like crazy (I can't say i've paid attention to if it did in the last bit but I never remember any). Also lost all heat shortly after it started puking out coolant bad. I pulled air line off for the heater thing and no change. It's waiting to get looked at but I was told air compressor or head gasket. When it was warming up prior I never saw over 215 on the gauge and that was only once, I can't see how I cooked the head gasket, and never had any issues with coolant pushing out before it was worked on. Seems so odd to just start all of sudden. I'm assuming the truck isn't worth doing a head gasket if that's the problem. Hoping it's not the issue.
The B model Cat is still a pretty desirable engine.
I don't know the history of the truck i've had it little over 3 years, if the engine needs to be tore into it would probably only make sense to do a full rebuild? It's always ran good, but i'm guessing it has a lot of miles on the motor if it's ever even been rebuilt before. That has to be an insane number. I mean I would consider it depending on the cost, and have the rest of the truck looked over and see if it's worth it.
Pushing coolant and blow by. Compressor can pressurize coolant system, the blow-by--IMO a leaking liner causing both. After setting overnight and oil drain plug just barely removed to check for drops of coolant plus check for gases in coolant system, hope they do both before going too far.
Unfortunately you won't really know what you're into in terms of liner condition until the head comes off (if it needs to). I pulled the head off my 3406A and ended up with nearly $10k into it between having a bunch of machine work, 6 new cylinder kits and a new spacer plate. That was at cost +5% on all the parts too and me doing all the labour.
I would assume they would, likely won't get to it this week so it's still sitting in my shop. It's far beyond my abilities to look at so i'm not even going to touch it. That makes sense why the blowby is just recent.
So it could likely turn into a $20-25k+ bill pretty quick? I mean the bill for fixing my mistake was $2100 and that wasn't much, it adds up fast. I really don't know if I want to dump that much into it. I'm guessing the box and cylinder I could get 5-6k for alone as I just spent $3k on a new cylinder last summer, and the rest of the truck I would think has to be worth at least $5k. If it's going to be that expensive, might just be better off selling it as-is and buying a new truck. I'm about $30k into it, if I get $10k for it it's made me enough money I have no complaints.
I don't think you'd get that much if the engine has issues, however you might find another truck in rough shape but with a decent engine. I was at an RB auction and a couple least desireable dump trucks sold under 5K. They were older with air suspension but 1 had a 3406B with recent work orders on the engine. I know some brothers on a farm that had a Ford COE with a rebuilt 3406B 400HP. The 1 brother that bought it passed away. His wife just wanted it gone. Nobody wanted it and they basically gave it away under $1000! I think it might have brought more at auction just for the engine. I looked at another dump truck the owner wanted about $9500 for. It had a 3406B as well but was more of a highway truck with not much ground clearance. About a year later I asked if it ever sold and was told it went for $2750. There's deals out there but being in the right place at the right time is the problem.
Other point is try to find a different truck not needing $5-10k in repairs for under $15-25 can license and start using right away.
Preferably with one that can interchange parts with the old one so you aren't starting over new and have spare parts.
The truck I'm sitting in right now, a 2014 mack, has had the nox sensors replaced several times at $900 a piece. Dont think a new truck could be cheaper to operate. 3406 typically will be cheaper than most engines.
I'm torn on what to do, assuming it's not going to be cheap to fix, if it's anything under $5k I won't hesitate to fix it. I am extremely busy and I don't care if I have to spend up to even 140k at this point I just want a truck that works. Problem is no auctions for quite awhile and anything on Kijiji i've found is stupidly priced, even beyond what it should be right now. I don't want a $140k truck that's a nightmare either. It has crossed my mind to get the truck looked at other then engine and decide if it's worth spending a ton to just rebuild the engine so it's fixed and never have to worry about it again, even if it's like $30k. But i'm concerned with the rust on the cab, i'd imagine it's got a few years left before it's going to need some wor I also called a shop about cost to put a Cummins ISL in the international, I was told around $45k. If I spent $45k buying my dads international, worst case if the maxxforce went i'd be $90k into that truck. Compared to what's for sale, that sounds like a better option. I'm just in a bind, if my truck can't be fixed within a few weeks my dad needs to unload his asap so I have to either buy it or buy something else right away. I could spend $5-10k getting my hoe moved in a hurry if I don't have a truck.
If a Head, Aftermarket units are $4-5k US, Head Gasket or injector/Nozzle cups different story and just head work checking block deck and cleaning. Engine having enough hours and/or miles, Mains Rods Rings and Sleeves another $8-12k US or go IPD and buy a Overhaul KIT Aftermarket. In ANY Case, should it need inside block work, Block Comes OUT.
To get my block hot tanked, deck trued up, main journal alignment checked (boring was not needed), all 6 liner seal surfaces cut/sleeved and the crank/cam polished cost me around $3500 CAD a couple years ago.
Suladas-down here a in-frame including cutting block for liner shims using Cat parts will run anywhere from $18,000 to $23,000 depending on extras. There are a lot of unknowns till it's disassembled, but that would be my best estimate. The block/counterbores can be cut for liner shims with block in-frame, unless the deck is in bad shape overall-liner shims will take care of a ton of issues. Even with a rusty cab you will still know what's under the hood. There is so many worn out trucks for sale IMO your buying someone else's trouble. It's hard to bite the bullet but sometimes it's necessary to just repair what you have.
What about looking at older highway tractors just for the engine? They can go pretty cheap sometimes.
Fix it. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING you buy could end up costing you $20k or more after the first day, unless you buy something with warranty.
What? You’ve got the dog, your own place, all the cool friends here who appreciate you, and pizza. You’re one, lucky dude!!
I’m not a mechanic, but I had a similar thing happen with my Deere 310L backhoe. No heat. Deere suggested bad thermostat, and sold me two. The old ones looked ok, and seemed to open and close when you’d expect. Since I had it open, I replaced them with new. Solved the problem.
They are looking at the truck on monday to know for sure, but the more I think about it, I don't think I want to put the money into it to do a rebuild. If it could be nearly $30k alone for the engine, then while i'm at it I better make sure things like the rad, gauges, on and on are all operating properly with a new engine and it could get out of hand quick and end up $40-50k not to mention the time it would take to do it all. If i'm going to be that kind of money into a truck I want a nicer cab and a bigger dump box (it's only about 13 yard compared to 15 yards most others are) and to try and get those things on mine would just be insane to put that kind of money into it. Buying anything else just doesn't seem feasible with what's available, i'm really thinking my only option is gambling on the international. At least if the maxxforce went and I had to spend $45k putting a Cummins into it, then it should be a solid truck and need nothing else major for a long time, whereas I could put $45k into my truck and a rear end, tranny, clutch or whatever could go next time and i'd never be able to sell it without taking an astronomical loss on it. The only exception I think to where I would fix it is if I could find a recently rebuilt engine to put in that was low miles, if I could get that done for like $15k then it would make sense. Buying a used engine otherwise doesn't make sense for me as labour would be so much and it could blow tomorrow. Would a head gasket sealer be worth a try or is it a waste of time? Even if it could buy me a year it would be huge. Let truck prices come back down to reality and get more use out of the money i've put into the truck.
It's not worth trying, block sealer is hard on the water pump seals also. You do what you think is right for you money wise, we are just bystanders.
I think you said the international would be 40k right? Is there anything in the 40-80k range for a truck? Just wondering
I am still undecided on what to do. No matter what it has to be reliable and that's my biggest concern and i'd really like to spend under $100k, but I also want something decent to drive. The current truck is ok, but it's pretty crappy being in for hours at a time and i'm ok with spending a few extra bucks to be more comfortable, I really don't want to be like $80k into a truck like that. Also ontop of the motor i'd need 4 tires, to make the cab air ride, possibly re-bush the rear suspension to pass inspection in feb which could easily be $10k. I am going to ask mechanic what he thinks about it, but his comment was if it's head gasket it's not worth fixing, he did the inspection last year so he knows the truck a bit. The international i'm thinking is worth $45kish. I've been trying to get my dad to list it for awhile, then it would be easy to get a better idea on a fair price. But based on similar auction prices i'd say that's a pretty fair price. There is nothing under $100k that doesn't have 400k+ miles, most are far beyond that and just stupidly priced, some trucks they are asking like 50% more then similar trucks went for at last Ritchie Bros sale. The only possible option I see on another truck is a old highway tractor and take my box and hoist to put on it. But even any tractor is priced pretty high. Of any truck i've found these 3 are probably the most reasonably priced, but so much more then I want to spend. https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1642617220 https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=m4543268 https://www.kijiji.ca/v-heavy-trucks/calgary/tandem-dump-truck/1644443537
Got any pics of your truck and the international? Really I think you have a good plan and I think the international might be really cheap. I own a 6.0 and know about the 6.4 and they are really maintenance heavy, might be the case with the maxxforce engines as well. I would definitely keep your old truck and fix it and keep it as a spare, you won't have to fix it right away.
Here's a pic of both, the int one is a few years ago but still the same basically. The WS is far from pretty which is why I really don't think it's worth the $$ into it. I do agree the int is a good deal, the motor sucks and maybe the wiring too but it's got a allision 3500, same diffs etc as the other trucks that cost 3x as much for the same year and mileage. Also I feel it has far more value to me knowing it's history right from new and knowing it's not a major lemon and nothing covered up. Only tough part I think is going to be deleting it, doesn't seem to be a lot of support for deletes since all the clamp downs.
If it runs good, why open up a potential can of worms deleting it?
It seems to be the consensus they run better deleted and the emissions causes a lot of the engine issues, at least from my research on them. The EGR cooler leaked before and the head had to come off the truck for a $20k bill at around 125km so I really don't want that to happen again.
Not to change the subject but why do you guys out west run such low boxes and nothing over the cab? I can never figure that one out.
The international is a 15 yard box and filling it level with reasonably moist clay will make it pretty much at legal weight so no reason for any bigger box and the height makes it nice for loading with small equipment. I don't get the box portion over the cab, never seen a reason for it, just extra weight. I will never swing over the cab.
A dump truck on the road isn't the same as a rock truck. You don't dump right to the front because there's usually a roll up tarp there. I have an older lower box and it suits my needs because I can load it with a skid steer if required and I can also look out the back window and see where I'm going if necessary. It's a 15' box so can still get a full load.
Having driven both styles I prefer the old lower side box, can see what you are loading to, no need for drop axles and extra maintenance, not gaining all that much material for size against weight of load. A Coal box in TN is 24 yd as coal is light it fills pretty much entire box, a standard depth here with a legal sand load is about 80% full. As to road stability I did not ever enjoy driving the Star I was with the local company where had been lightened suspension wise for capacity of product hauled, just squirrelly on the road.
Definitely don't get rid of that western star. Fix it eventually.
How come? I really can’t justify 2 trucks, I might put 5k miles on a year. I’m sure I could borrow the int for a month or two and get the WS fixed properly, but don’t want to buy if I’m fixing mine.
Leave it sit until get a little cash ahead, THEN consider fixing where if anything is Sellable at a better price than scrap or Salvage.
I'm guessing it's paid off. They way the truck market is going is those old trucks are worth more money every day, and spare trucks are very valuable.
This came up for sale near me I know nothing about other than what’s posted
Quite far from Canada
Money isn't a concern that way, truck is paid for and I can buy a new one without any funds from selling this one. My biggest concern is just having a truck that works as lost days from a broken truck add up fast. I wouldn't have an issue holding onto it, thought not sure about fixing it unless it's the truck I want to keep. Insurance, extra yearly inspection, plates, etc add up pretty quickly on an extra truck.
Have you talked to Badger truck parts or other truck wreckers to see if they have a used engine? I don't particularly like the attitude at Badger but they have a lot of trucks. Red Ram I think is another truck wrecker around Edmonton you could try.
Well finally got an update, he went ahead and pulled the head. I was in a rush and didn't have time to really ask but from the sounds of it no tests at all, just went right ahead and pulled the head. Not what we talked about, ruling out the air compressor was all he was going to do because even in his words it might not be worth fixing. Had head sent out didn't hear anything on it, said at first glance the engine seemed to look good. I do hope the engine is in good shape and can be fixed to last a few years for under $10k and then i'll be ok with it, otherwise he might have removed the head on his own dime. Still not overly thrilled, I wasn't even totally sure if I was comfortable having him do engine work on it, considering he's screwed up a few things on basic repairs.
I never called any, I don't want to gamble on a used engine without any paperwork of a recent rebuild or one with very low hours. By the time it was put it I bet any decent engine would cost me $20k minimum and it could blow tomorrow.
It's very possible to have a good engine in a wrecked truck. See what warranty they would offer. Maybe the engine could be run and tested. You're guessing instead of inquiring which doesn't cost anything. I've seen lots of used engines with warranties and guarantees. Some even have maintenance history. Worth looking into in my opinion.
You have a good point WD. IMO it's better to repair what you have at least you know what's in it. Like in Vetech's thread a rebuilt engine with sour/dummy paper work.
I agree with fixing what you have IF it makes economic sense. If it's going to cost 20K+ to rebuild but you can get a tested used engine with a warranty for 10K or less I think it's worth looking into. Every engine isn't ruined in an accident.
Finally got update, the head wasn't too bad, but the liners (I think it is) are flush and not .3 thou over or whatever they need to be so a new head gasket would fail in short order. Said a full rebuild and a few other repairs on the truck would be $20-25k so i'm going ahead, but problem is parts are a month out. That also includes pulling the engine and resealing pump, etc to get rid of all oil leaks. Fixing fender, rust on cab floor, etc few other minor things as by then it needs a new yearly inspection. In the end it's the best way to go I think, adding $25k to what this truck was worth as-is (maybe 10k being generous) wouldn't come close to buying me a decent truck. The wait sucks though, probably be without it for another 6 weeks so it's going to cost me more money borrowing truck until then. Only thing I forgot to ask was about warranty, and just to confirm it's rebuilding absolutely everything. If i'm spending this much, I want to know 100% I will never have another worry about the engine.
It may have may sense prior to tearing down engine, but i'm guessing the bill is already around $5k, and so much of the labor is already done it makes more sense just to fix this engine.
Yes it does.
There was a similar 1992 Western Star dump truck on Kijiji in Red Deer. I think it was listed for 30K.
Thing is, that truck is probably similar to mine when I bought it and needs a million little things that i've already done to mine, it wouldn't make sense to jump to something like that. I've done all new drums, shoes, steering, alignment, box cylinder, 4 tires, new seat, etc etc so many things that I know will last forever.
Once that money is invested, a serious setback expense looks bad but once done do not have worry of those previous repairs.
I just saw that truck and thought of yours.
Still waiting on quote before I go ahead because I want to know exactly what he figured on, but i'm wondering how far should the rebuild be going to make sense without going overboard? From my guess it's just the basic overhaul he was including, plus redoing all gaskets. No rebuilding fuel pump, keeping turbo, water pump, oil cooler, etc. I think $30k is the number where it's the tipping point for me, if it starts to get much above that it's getting too much to justify. There is also a crack in the bottom frame rail between axles on passenger side, the part that baffles me is i'm 99% sure it's been there since I bought it or at least a few years, so 3 different shops passed the inspection with it there but he said it has to be fixed before passing and he missed it last year, and said likely could just clean it out and weld it up but it's a grey area if DOT would be ok if they ever saw it. A few things like that are giving me pause about fixing it, seeing as it's old and not pretty it's just a big red flag for DOT, even though i've yet to get pulled over it's going to happen one day. In the event repairs are too much, what is a reasonable amount of hours for a head gasket? I know he said 1 bolt broke but other then that it come off smoothly. If I don't go ahead and just get him to put it back together to throw through auction I don't want to get screwed on the bill.
Can't see why they'd hassle you over a crack that was welded. DOT never bothers the trucks with stretched frames and that's all done by welding.
Should be able to weld the crack and make it not noticeable. Use a rod like 8018, a slight preheat and have a competent welder do the welding. A flap disc could grind it pretty smooth. Throw a little paint on it and some dirt and it would be hard to detect.
That's good to know, I just didn't want to put all this money into it and have DOT put it out of service saying it's not ok.
Well guess I don't have to worry about the frame repair, he just went ahead and disassembled the rear suspension and welded it up on his own accord i'm betting that alone is $2k easily. Went by earlier and have to say i'm glad he wasn't around because I would have lost it as they haven't stopped tearing things apart. On monday morning I asked him to stop on the engine and access what it needed for the cvip (which should have been done before ever tearing into the engine), and to give him time to get the engine quote (it's been a week now and still no engine quote), and that I was concerned if repairs hit a concern number I wasn't going to go ahead because it didn't make sense. Monday afternoon I come by and the axle shafts are pulled and starting to remove the suspension for the frame repair. I also don't want to hear "oh we're not looking at brakes, etc because they are easy and just consumables". I know the brakes are fine but it's not the point. You bet I want them looked at. I wanted EVERYTHING looked at so I know what the worse case bill is. Not to mention no engine parts that are 4 weeks away are ordered (at least they better not be), and still no quote on it. If the truck is going to be 2 months or more from being fixed it really doesn't even matter as I can't wait that long and will have to buy another truck and this one will be unsellable if it's fixed. I texted him asking what was going on as he's very deep into repairs without knowing it it makes sense to fix it and his reply was "the frame was the main concern". Like who's truck is it? Who's paying the bill? The person who makes that call is the one paying the bill. Am I being unreasonable that I expect to be updated before doing any repairs and wanting to know what it's going to cost? It's at the point now where there is no going back, I bet the bill if it was put back together now would be $10k or more and yet I have no idea what the cost to fix it is.
That's some shady ****. Sometimes things need to be disassembled to properly quote/diagnose but I'd say he's overstepped that line for sure.
I totally get that, like to access the crack all that stuff did need to come apart and it's the right way to do it, but give me a number of what it will cost as well as a cost on everything before digging into it further. We spoke on monday about if it was worth fixing or not, why would you think it makes sense to start on more repairs before that decision was made? Clearly he thinks it's his decision to make. It's not the first time either, the last cvip he just took the truck in did the repairs and gave me the bill at the end. No approval or anything. Granted it was minor the bill was like $1700 including inspection I still wasn't pleased. No other shop has ever done that, everyone always called after doing the inspection and gave me an estimate on costs. Never in a million years did I think he'd pull the same BS with a far more in depth repair. I'm going in there in the morning and going to make it crystal clear not to touch the truck again until I have a full quote on repairs and if he doesn't listen i'm done. His options will be repair the truck complete for under $25k, buy the truck, put it back together and whatever I get for it above what I think the value was before it was started he can have, or box up the parts and i'll take it elsewhere.
I'm not there so I couldn't be sure but the way you present it you are completely right.
I don't know what the deal is. Texted me this morning there are at a standstill and call him. Of course my question is do you have a quote so I know what the truck needs and what it will cost? Nope will have it by end of day. I don't know how to make it any clearer. I'm not letting them touch anything else until I have a complete list and cost, and if they do i'm not paying for it. Apparently the only thing it needs for inspection is the frame repair and rust repair of cab under drivers floorboard, but I find that hard to believe that there is absolutely nothing else. I believe they just haven't checked everything and will come back later with it. Said the frame repair had to be taken apart to see if truck was worth fixing, oddly it wasn't important enough to check before tearing apart the engine without any sort of approval But it was "only" $1500. Wonder if it's still "only" $1500 if I say i'm not paying for it because I never said to go ahead with it? He said I have to decide if i'm going to go all the way and fix it or put it back together and sell. Yea because it makes sense to spend probably $10k to basically fix nothing on the truck that is maybe worth $10k without a proper running engine? Or the fact that before anything was torn into you could have estimated what the truck was going to cost to fix fairly close? I'm at the point where i've just had enough, it's not even about the truck anymore it's about his complete disregard for seeking approval before just going ahead with whatever he figures.
That's real shady.
Yea. I get the feeling he wants me to just let him go ahead and do whatever he thinks and whatever the bill is at the end expect me to pay it which isn't going to happen. I've covered myself that I have a text saying to stop work until I have a quote. I'm not expecting it down to the dollar and even if something minor was missed i'm ok with it, but I want something within like 10% and a list to ensure the rebuild is indeed a full rebuild, and if there is still any unknowns with the engine a ballpark what they will cost. Telling me it's "everything" doesn't mean anything. I'm pretty sure he was just figuring on a in-frame kit but added the gaskets, so it's far from "everything" in my view. Didn't hear anything else from him on the quote, assuming monday morning will be the same we're at a standstill.
Find another repair shop.
Is the guy busy? If not big red flag, even terrible mechanics are swamped right now
I really want to, but with the truck in so many pieces it's not easy and chances are he won't let it leave without paying what he figures the bill is now and it'll cost a fortune more to get someone to pick up from where it is now I bet.
Say your trying to make sure your on budget and want to know how much you have spent so far, also might help with the final bill later. What kind of warranty are you getting with a rebuild.
Yes. It took him over 3 weeks to look at it which I wasn't pleased with when it was suppose to only be about a week, the few times he's worked on things for me it seems like I get pushed to the back for some reason and it's not like i'm getting any special deals. His shop space is right beside mine, we share yard space, in the little over a year since we've been here he's always been pretty busy except for a bit of a lull last christmas. There has been a few unhappy customers i've heard and times when he wants the gate locked because he's worried about someone picking up without paying, but for the amount of trucks going in and out, it's very very minor and you're going to have some issues. I don't feel like he is trying to rip me off or do anything unnecessary, it's just a matter of not updating me and doing what he thinks, instead of me making the calls. But I have zero confidence that he has any handle on what a final bill will be which is why I want everything in writing.
Yea that might not hurt. 1 year 100,000km I believe it was, mileage doesn't matter as it'll never see anywhere close to that. However said it's on labor only, and the parts would be a matter if the supplier stands behind them or not which didn't seem right, was suppose to check what the actual parts warranty was but haven't heard.
Finally got quote back, but I really don't have much faith in it being done properly or the final bill being $25k. I brought up the fact of him going so deep without approval and his only response was it was miscommunication and that you have to pull the head to verify it was the head gasket. The part i'm more pissed about now seeing the cost is the head, he said before it was "a few hours nothing bad at all" but $3k tells me different. He said in order to check the liner he had to buy the spacer place and new gasket? Is that true? I mean that was a fast $4500 right there without any approval. Is this normal for a rebuild quote to be so vague? I was expecting to see what parts were included and what parts were to be reused. The frame repair that he said was $1500 is now somehow $2500 also. I just don't get the way he went about this. Even if it made sense to pull the head, should have sought approval before the $3k machining bill and $1.5k in gasket and spacer plates as well as the frame repair, I only said to do a cvip on it to get a estimate on what it needed, not to actually do any repairs.
Ask him if you put the head back and it does the same thing if he will comp the bill of the head gasket, not to get him to comp the bill but he needs to put his mind in your shoes over this as he didn't check everything before pulling the head. This kind of guy everything needs to be writing before work is done
Not in my world.
He said if only doing head gasket no warranty whatsoever because it will do the same thing again soon. He did up separate quote for that for $15k, like seriously $15k to maybe get 6 months more out of the truck how would that make sense? The only difference was 24 less hours and $6k less in parts. I totally agree. As far as I know he never even pulled discharge line from compressor to rule it out. He can argue miscommunication all he wants but he is the expert and should know quickest and cheapest way to diagnose an issue. What I don't get is when I asked him what it could be pressurizing the system he said almost for sure head gasket very very unlikely compressor and that it might not be worth fixing. So why dig deep into it without coming up with numbers to see if it makes sense?
Didn't make sense to me but I didn't question it as I have no idea. He said that and right on the quote it says "new head gasket and spacer plate were installed as temp method to properly inspect and measure height of cylinder liners". So he didn't have to spend $1500 on those, or $3000 on machining head. He should have came to me at that point with a quote and a direction to go. I really don't think it would be wise to have him rebuild it then. I'm torn if I want to do it, but also the part of navigating having someone else finish what he started and how much extra it's going to cost because i'm sure if I tell him to box up the parts and that i'm towing it elsewhere I imagine the current bill will increase a lot and demand payment in full before it leaves and could end up with missing parts.
He's not an expert. 75%+ mechanics just throw parts and try to get lucky. I would call around for rebuild quotes and see what they offer on warranty. I'm not too excited on him rebuilding your engine honestly, and if he messed up sure he comp the labor but that's only half of the price if your lucky. There are parts and labor rebuild warranties but you often pay for them too. If your wanting someone else to fix it I guess slap the thing together and drive it out, just tell him your going to chance it not breaking. Talked to a friend today, he said they got rid off all their def trucks, they are the ones that had the Maxx force that caught fire. They spent over 100k in repairs on that truck before they junked it. Your truck is worth fixing, just need the proper mechanic.
$25k is a number I am fine with spending, if I know the engine is done properly and not cause me anymore issues. Problem is if he puts it back together i'd be paying for it to be tore apart again, I bet that double labor would be at least $5k or more, i'd be far better off to say box everything up and get it towed elsewhere as-is. I thought about saying pull the engine and I will take it elsewhere to be rebuilt and he can just re-install it, but i'm not sure if it would cause warranty issues with whoever rebuilds it if they don't install? I could also approach him about further standing behind the rebuild, keep the same mileage but up the years to 2 or 3. The quote also concerns me because it misses so many minor details like fluids, filters, etc. Not that it's much but I bet that's another $1000 easy and if there is more minor details missing it could add up to a decent amount.
Actually about calling other shops on pricing, I figure while i'm at it I should be honest and say my truck is currently at this shop, what do you think of them? If a competitor can say they believe they are capable of rebuilding it decent it would instill more confidence for me. Maybe they don't know them, but I don't think it would hurt to ask.
In general, people that don't talk bad about others are better people to do business with. See about long block pricing, have him pull the engine and install the long block, probably more costly but better off and you can use the excuse that you want a long block.
Problem with that is the total cost would be insane if I could even find a long block at all, not to mention he spent $3k on machining head already so it would be an issue.
I really don't know what to do, I just know i'm pissed he went this far without consulting me and now i'm in a impossible position. I think I want to fix it but that I really have no option to at this point unless I gamble having him do it, but I really don't want to gamble on over $20k. I'm going to push him on the warranty and say he has to warranty the parts too, and for more then 1 year or i'm not doing it, and see if he budges. Otherwise I feel like I should offer him fair labor to pull the head and for a cvip, somewhere around $2500 and tell him to keep the gaskets and head and I will take the truck in pieces. I never told him to spend the $3000 on the head nor the $1500 on gaskets or the $2500 on the frame so I have zero obligation to pay any of that. I think offering for labor to pull the head is generous even. I really doubt anyone else would touch it as is though, unless I bought a long block or rebuilt engine to install, otherwise trying to take over someone else's mess i'm sure would cost me a fortune. It seems almost my only option is to tell him i'm not spending that kind of money on fixing it and offer the bit for labor and if he refuses let it sit and see what happens and just buy another truck.
I’m not sure if I missed something but why is he pulling the engine out? In frame overhaul including pistons and liners should only be 40 to 50 hours total. I guess I need to charge more for cutting in block shims. Last one I did was 500 bucks. It only takes about 3 hours at most. I would not recommend taking it somewhere else now or you will pay extra at both places as they blame each other for overruns!
He said pulling engine to address oil leaks on the pump and I know there is at least one other place it's leaking, however the pan is already pulled? I don't know if engine needs to be pulled for those things? Yea I don't think it'll work trying to go elsewhere.
Probably leaking at rear structure to block or front structure left side mid way.
For those reasons, Yes requires block on ground.
Hate to ask a dumb question but figured I would check. Seeing as the only reason to go beyond a head gasket was liner height and everything looks ok, could you not get a thinner spacer plate to achieve proper liner height? Am I missing something because from my reading on it as long as all liners are within .002 it would be ok? He never mentioned this as an option, but never said anything except overall height being too low. I'm sure the engine is getting tired, but even if it'll go another 500 hours it'll last as long as I would ever need it and it would cut the bill in half at least.
I don't believe Cat makes a different thickness spacer plate. I've never been into a B-model but my old A-model the liners just sit flat on the deck and the spacer plate is precision machined for the protrusion to be in spec with everything cinched down - assuming a perfectly flat and true deck of course. You will **** a brick if you seen the price for a spacer plate. Retail price a few years ago was $1200. Whatever you do, DO NOT buy a Yellowmark/Classic one. I did for 1/4 the price of genuine Cat and it never even made it out of the parking lot. Thing wasn't even within the thickness spec Cat had listed in SIS. Wasn't even a consistent thickness from one end to the other. High and low spots everywhere and a variance of a couple thou either side of spec. Even had the parts guy measure it to confirm it was NFG and that I didn't mess up making the measurements.
Still right at $1400US 92U, bought one for the C15. IF the sleeves have eroded into the block as will do over time will lose Height above the Spacer. There will be a ring where the head of the sleeve sits and as engine runs those sleeves move. Nothing is ever torque held absolutely still. With the movement come displaced metal and eventually have to redeck block. Buy new spacer and gaskets can shim under spacer but not reduce spacer thickness. Sleeve Height is measured four places around each sleeve then all those have to be within that .002 and prefer within .001 across the entire deck. Two Parge Gallery Plugs in ends of block, requires all the structure removed to pop those out to replace O-ring Seals on them.
I had my block deck shaved to true it up and to clear up some pitting. 6 new liners, new spacer plate the heights were pretty much bang on identical at spec across the board. Gotta love it.
The block shim gasket below spacer use to have two different thicknesses, .009 is standard IIRC.
He already bought one and it was $770 and i'm sure it wasn't Cat as he said their prices are insane and can't get them, absolutely no idea what brand it is. But things like that scare the hell out of me with aftermarket parts especially when he said he's never used these parts before and the warranty for parts would be based on them warrantying them, he would only warranty the labor.
If he bought Cat Classic (formerly known as Yellowmark) I would get those parts as far away from that engine as possible. I would not trust anything from that product line if it were going inside a component like an engine.
No idea what brand, the part numbers for head gasket and spacer plate are just the OEM numbers but obviously can't be for the price. Is there any decent options outside of Cat for the parts?
Are shop manual instructions as to measuring a spacer plate, need to be followed and the aftermarket validated as true and dimensionally exact. IPD uses a Cat style PN system could be theirs or similar supplier.
Checked with my friend-yes there is different thicknesses of block shims-has them in his little black book in the shop, so he will look up the part numbers tomorrow.
How does it work with those shims? Do they have to machine a very shallow counterbore into the flat surface of the deck? Always been curious about that.
To keep piston stroke as opposed to block deck the same will need to shim the sleeves off the deck, the head spacer plate that surrounds the sleeve head lip will also have to be shim adjusted to keep head gaskt crush spec.
The liner it's self can be shimmed by cutting the block creating a shallow counter bore. If the spacer plate is off tolerance the shim/gasket between plate and block can changed also to gain correct liner protrusion. If the block shows erosion where liners meet block it will need to be cut and liners shimmed at this point, it's also part of the reason for cutting the block-to stop liner leakage.
The reason you can’t just put in a thinner spacer is because when the liners drop they don’t drop evenly. You will usually see number 1,5 or 6 wear into the block at one corner where the liner contacts block. If you don’t fix this your new liners can break at the flange from uneven contact. The nice part of cutting and shimming under the liner is that you can cut the block to 0.030” and then install the thinnest shim which is 0.032” thick giving you the maximum protrusion. The other thing is once you cut and install a stainless shim it seems to halt all block wear from liner movement. I have never had to cut a block a second time in the 30 years I’ve been cutting. Some truck shops here will cut all 6 holes even when none are worn just because of that. Shims come in 0.032 , 0.064 and I think.102 sizes. I won’t use anything but a cat head gasket and spacer gasket even if I use a jobber rebuild kit.
I dont know you or your mechanic and i cant say what is wright or wrong here but i have been the mechanic on jobs like this before . This is one of the reason mechanic work is not fun . One of you guys cant under stand what the other is saying . I got into a job like this one i talked to the customer at least 3 times what it would cost and take to fix his engine. I had alot of machine work done then it hit him what it was going to cost . We should have sat down and written out on paper what it would cost and signed it. Then another time the customer wanted it fixed i jumped the gun and had things under way when he got cold feet. Not saying who is wright or wrong but its not easy on any one.
Straight edged my block, inspected per Cat specs on distortion on surface as to projection specs and prep. All looked good on this unit.
Very true-I've cut all six on many blocks for same reason. The reason for the different thickness of the block shim is if when done cutting and a little high or low the block shim/gasket will make up the difference.
Are you talking about different thickness of spacer plate shim or gasket? Is there a part number chart available for all thicknesses of gasket. I must admit that I have come to rely on my measurements of the block while Im cutting and using a dial indicator to measure the depth of cut and height of installed shim. If I have new liners and cat gaskets I know it will fall into the high side of spec.
In the literature I have found Liner shim p/n 2W3815 .0632 SS nothing I have shows a varied thickness Spacer plate gasket but Cat is not always giving as to available options for a shim sized gasket. Spacer plate is supposed to be .3380, +/- .0013.
Yes spacer plate shim-Cat made them in a few varied thicknesses to compensate for process of cutting block plus the variable in thickness of spacer plate. Every time I removed a head and spacer plate I always made sure to check thickness of spacer plate shim. I wouldn't say it's common to find one that's not the standard size that comes in gasket set, I think IIRC I've only found two in I don't know many that I have checked through the years. I always check the new supplied in set, I know of one instance where it wasn't and coolant started flowing freely. Two block shims were stuck together in the Cat gasket set and installed as such on just a cylinder head change. It raised the plate an extra .009. The shim got caught in the stamping die and was pressed together with the next blank.
There is such.
The liner shim I cut for is a 9y3368 which measures 0.032 inch. I cut to just over 0.030 inch to allow about .002 extra protrusion. Its actually a better fix than having the block resurfaced unless you have erosion at the grommets to deal with. I have seen a few people on YouTube claim its a band aid fix but they have obviously never cut a block. They still claim to be experts. I have seen some people machining a ring into the cylinder head where the fire ring makes contact in an effort to get more crush.
Same here-The last six I cut some years back I used a Monaco tool, IMO seems smoother than the Kent Moore.
All this technical talk is way over my head But I figured it means there is no easy way to get it back running decent and it's full rebuild or nothing. I told him I wasn't going ahead due to concerns about costs spiraling out of control and concerns about quality of parts/warranty. I was expecting some push back like no the parts are good, he would warranty them or something. But nope just asking if i'm scrapping the truck and that the parts aren't returnable Then his bright idea was put truck back together and send through auction, he gets full amount of his bill and if any left over I get it. Yea not going to happen.
While I don't understand the in depth details of what a engine rebuild requires, I have a basic understanding of them and know enough that he messed up, badly. I have also been running this by a buddy of mine who is a foreman at the Freightliner dealership here, and he was also blown away by how he ran away with the repairs without any sort of go ahead. They will not even start repairs without a signed work order, or confirmation in writing and either an estimate provided or a set amount to go up to. I've taken trucks/trailers to plenty of other shops over the years and every time I come in and they give me an estimate to go over and confirm a ballpark price before proceeding with anything. Last year for my truck inspection he took truck and I heard nothing until it was done and here's your bill. My only fault was trusting him not to pull that same crap again. He never told me a single price before removing head, or going ahead with machining head and buying spacer plate and gasket. Absolutely zero idea of any price. Here is how it went down. Went I went to run truck for first time after repair for oil cooler it started smoking so I came back and asked him what it could be, he said right away almost guaranteed it's head gasket and truck is probably not worth fixing but there is a very small chance it's the compressor. Said he would look at it next week and let me know. It took him a month to look at it between the holidays and what not so I had no idea when he started or how far he went. The next time I heard from him was running into him outside our shops (our spaces are right next door) and word for word he told me "dropped head off yesterday afternoon hoping to hear on it today". I replied that I was shocked he removed the head. He said "it's the only way to know it's the head gasket". I made it clear I wasn't happy but knew it was too late so might as well wait and see what they say. Next time I hear from him a few days later he asks me to come in to discuss truck. He tells me "head wasn't bad, but liners are low". He already had the head back and bought spacer plate and gaskets. This was the first price talk, he told me $20-25k to do "everything" for engine and cvip, no written quote or details, and he admitted he hadn't gone through the truck for all repairs, only that he didn't think it needed anything "major" (missed the frame though I pointed it out). Being put on the spot and thinking he's really deep into it and past the point of return, but if it's going to be proper I said ok. That night I think better of it I need a quote in writing to know what he's doing, etc. I go in next day and say stop, I need a quote and details, etc and we need to know what truck needs for a cvip. I was concerned he might keep going so I text him confirming stopping engine work and just figure out what truck needs for cvip. That afternoon I come in to the rear suspension tore apart and get told "it was the only way to see if the frame could be fixed". I wasn't happy and told him again to stop work I needed a quote. Thursday I go back in because I hadn't heard anything and they kept working on the frame repair and it was nearly done. He wasn't there and I texted him that I wasn't happy and what's going on you're so deep into repairs and no idea if truck is worth fixing yet, I need a quote. Then after that he finally got the $25k quote and here we are. I'm all ears to hear if anyone thinks i'm in the wrong here, by all means don't hold back. I absolutely did give him permission for half a day to continue tearing down AFTER the head was back, but that was removing things like the hood, bumper, etc to prep for removing engine, it's a very very small part.
Matters not what I think now, if you halt work and parts non refundable you end up paying him and losing truck at scrap rate. That is the bottom line. Some repairs made and pieces bought so will cost you anyway.
I am trying to get other perspectives if I screwed up and be reasonable to try and resolve this amicably, and I have no problem paying a reasonable amount but not getting nothing out of the truck that was probably worth $10k prior to him starting. From a legal standpoint he doesn't have a leg to stand on. He has no signed work order, estimate, or any confirmation to proceed. If he went down that route he would likely end up getting $0.
You brought him a (not well) running truck. Now its a completely non-running truck in pieces with zero approval to have gone that far and no written estimate. Myself I'd be livid right now TBH. There's no way he should have went that far into it without some sort of written agreement.
Don't know what to say, as I sit here shaking my head.
100%. I don't see how any shop would ever pull a head on a truck without providing a written quote best and worst case scenario or where a customer said just fix whatever it needs. I'm being nicer about it because it would be nice to remain civil with him seeing as we share yard space and our shops are in the same building. It also screws me from potentially fixing it elsewhere as it should have been maybe $1000 to access engine and cvip repairs and make this call before anything was tore into. I told him i'm ok with putting it back together as long as it will run at least as good as before so he can get it out of the shop. But that i'm not ok with the bill and how he went ahead with all these things.
First would have been to trouble shoot to narrow down the issue. Then three possible quotes with prices of good, better and best options before disassembly, that's how I always handled it, that way the customer knew what he was up against.
When i go through a tuff spot today i can think about this and think my problems are not so bad. I cant take a side on this but its one of those life lessons and the more you learn the bigger the bill. Some one is going to school on this and it will not be cheap.
On a truck like that where it is a toss up whether or not it’s worth fixing he should have given you the rough breakdown before doing the head or ordering parts. As far as I’m concerned he should be stuck with the parts he purchased. I don’t think I would let him slap the engine together because he won’t give a hoot about how it goes together.
100% He'll be pissed and it'll get slapped together as fast as possible just to get it out of his hair. If OP wants to keep the truck it'd be best to close up the block best as possible and drag it out of there on the hook.
Yeah agreed, act in good faith to have him put it together then start haggling. It just seems like your like check it out and he just went full nuclear on it. If lawyers get involved everyone loses.
Rule #1 Never do business with another business sharing the same property. Rule #2 Only do business with a legitimate shop that's neat, clean and has a real office. Rule #3 If burned once never go back for seconds. The shop in this thread more than likely has a bad track record a mile long, probably has had people carrying a bat looking all over town for him. I'm sure this is his standard practice and always wants to be paid in cash.
Because his first solution was send it to the auction and he gets paid from that proceeds I believe he will be of the opinion it's in his best interests to do it properly and my caveat on agreeing to that solution was that it runs at least as good as it did before. Regardless if it runs or not after, I think it's best to have it back in one piece. If I tried to take truck as-is i'm guessing many parts would be thrown together and not labeled maybe damaged, missing, etc. And I doubt any shop would touch it, whereas if it's back in one piece and ideally running I can easily take it elsewhere.
However he didn't respond to me since, so who knows what he's thinking or his plan. My plan is to be amicable towards a resolution as long as he is, and as much as I don't think i'm in the wrong at all will suck up spending a few extra grand to try and resolve it. If he mentions mechanic lien or court, then I won't bother trying to resolve with him and will let it ride out that way.
Sounds good, if he talks about lawyers or something (after truck is together) might pull the defense of the he can only talk to your lawyer now, the relationship will be already ruined at that point anyway.
Well he texted me yesterday asking me to come in and discuss and it didn't go anywhere. He's stuck in the opinion he did absolutely nothing wrong and isn't budging on the bill even $1 and I can pay the $13k bill now or $15k put back together and that's it. Just went around in circles. He couldn't understand my viewpoint of saying inspect the truck and give a ballpark of costs and not tear it apart for the cvip. Word for word this is my text to him AFTER he was suppose to already be stopped on the engine and getting a quote. "Can we hold off on going further with engine until we know the extent of other repairs truck will need for cvip? Just concerned if it's going to exceed like $30k". Would anyone assume that's a go ahead to tear the rear suspension apart and bill for $2500? I did ask him about tests, he said testing for exhaust gas in the coolant almost never works and the only way to know it's the head is pulling it. He didn't confirm either way when I asked but I don't think he ever checked out the compressor. I also asked about the thinner spacer plate if all cylinders were within .002, he said he's tried it and the head gasket failed again right away, funny enough it was with the same parts he bought for my truck, I asked if maybe it was the parts and he said "I don't know" Before he had never used these parts, now he has many times and they are good. I also asked about the warranty and he said it's normal that he only covers the parts warranty if the supplier does. I tried to think of solutions, like selling the head and not putting back together and all he said was "probably you could try calling the machine shop" and that the parts aren't returnable. Also pitched him on him rebuilding it and selling truck after, wouldn't consider anything like that. I wonder why he doesn't want to take any risk on the rebuild? I think i've bent over backwards to try and come to a reasonable solution, it's not even worth pitching him a $3-4k number. He wants an answer by the end of the day and i'm just going to say I don't have one but the 13k as-is or the 15k back together aren't it.
Did I read that right that the safety inspection is 691 bucks? I would let him stew for a while. The truck is worth very little to you so are you wanting to pay 13 grand for a 10 grand truck? He is going to want it out of his space at some point . He is in the wrong and trying to bully you into paying. Give him a month or 2 to think about it.
Yes that includes pulling all the wheels though or at least it should, last years cvip without pulling wheels was $325. Yea I totally agree. I'm not paying a dime unless we have an agreement in place and the max would be $3k if I get it back together running as good as it did before it went in. At least for the time being i've decided i'm going to buy the international so I don't care if this one sits.
That guy doesn't know his *** from a hole in the ground.
I'm getting some strong stay away from that guy vibes.
Things might not work out for this guy because he doesn't do them correctly. I'm looking for a particular you tube video on combustion glasses in coolant, but can't find it. I'm sorry I don't know what I would do at this point if I were you.
You own a truck that blew a head gasket. There's no "can you get me 500 miles" fix to that situation. Its going to take some money. You took it to the guy next door, and he flat out told you "its probably not worth fixing". I'm not entirely sure what all happened right after that- maybe you thought he'd put his x-ray vision glasses on and his fortune teller hat and come up with a $3-4,000 miracle cheapy repair, or give you a total itemized list of everything he's going to find once he gets inside. Either way- you didn't drag it home right then- you left it at his yard. That to me means "I want it fixed". You're at 13k for a pile of parts, and at 15k put back together? or $25k put back together? I'm not sure and I really don't care. At the high figure that's only $18,000 US for a engine head repair and removal/ reinstallation of rear suspension and frame rail repair. Sounds a little high, but I think the last head/ and gasket replacement I had done at shop was close to $10k and that was before "covid inflation" prices. Maybe a "this is a POS truck" cost for the "I hope he's not my customer anymore" price rate. You took him the truck, he said "its probably not worth fixing" but you knew better- and you gave a verbal go ahead. He's a mechanic, not a auction house or a buyer and fix it and resell it house. Its your truck that you wanted fixed. If you didn't want it fixed, don't take it to the mechanic. I don't expect a repair shop to make business decisions for me. Paper work orders only matter to paper pushers and lawyers. If I say "go ahead" then I mean "go ahead" and I'm paying my end, because I said I would, not because of some papers. And as far as "warranty"- nobody is warrantying a 35 year old band aid engine repair- there's a whole pile of other bad things that can happen to a engine that age- because he's not replacing everything- just fixing what's wrong. Full warranty doesn't happen on a band aid repair- if the head gasket price is giving you the vapors, a full crank out/ injection pump/ turbo/ liners/ mains/ pistons/ head price would send you around the bend. If you don't like your neighbor mechanic, well then don't take him your truck anymore, find another shop. The rest of this is 10 pages of you crying about the cost to fix your old truck. You don't work for free, I don't know what makes you think your neighbor mechanic should. You want to have a dump truck- fine- you either pay for it in new purchase price, or in repair prices- none of my equipment runs for free. Anyone running a 30 year old truck better be able to fix it themselves, or be ready to pay for a $15,000 repair at any time. If you can't do either of those, maybe you shouldn't own a dump truck.
Here's the thing, he was suppose to eliminate the compressor, and if it wasn't it at that point I was going to ask him to do an inspection on the truck and a breakdown of best/worst case scenario for head gasket or full rebuild, and i'd have no problem paying him to do the quote, I don't expect anyone to work for free. I was never going to give him go ahead to pull a head without any idea of the cost and if it made sense, no reputable shop would. The issue was he pulled the head, then had it machined, and did the frame repair all on his own without receiving any go ahead. Also for note, he did last years inspection and missed the frame crack. $13k is taking the truck tore apart in pieces, $15k is putting it back together and doing head gasket, $25k is rebuild, but the quote is so vague there is no way it's not at least $30k. The problem is he did make business decisions for me by going so deep into it without approval. This is far from my first time taking a truck to be fixed and guess what every single time unless it's under like $1k they call me before proceeding with any work. I'm not sticking him because I didn't sign a work order, i'm doing it because he ran up a $15k bill for something that I would have pulled the plug on with maybe a $1k bill tops. The warranty is not to cover old parts. I wanted him to warranty the parts he was supplying and installing. I'm not spending $30k on a rebuild and if the second it leaves the shop the head gasket is leaking he says it's ****** parts and the parts supplier says ****** labour and i'm stuck in the middle with a broken truck, not going to happen. When I do work and supply material/parts if they fail I fix it and deal with the supplier I don't tell the customer to go to my supplier.
Haven't been following for a bit so went back and read several pages. Here's my take on it. The shop with the truck is for sure very unprofessional among other things. If at one point he said he'd fix everything for $25K, hold him to that and unless you are supplying the parts he warrantees his labour and holds the parts supplier to warranty the parts. You could leave the truck with him and let him stew. If he tried to put a mechanics lean on it or sue you, he may not get paid a cent. You could abandon the truck. Without a signed work order he'd have a real problem and would basically have a chunk of scrap iron. Would he rather take a cut to get paid $25K or have a bucket of bolts? You could also countersue him. There's probably things like unfair/unethical work practices on your side. A good lawyer could tell you. The guy is totally taking advantage of you! It's not good he's in the same yard as you. The other question is would you rather forfit a truck worth less than $10K (as it sits)or pay $25K or more to have it fixed? There is still the option to look for a used engine too. If engine parts were purchased but not used may be returnable. All depends on the supplier, especially if the buyer/shop deals with them on a regular basis. It's not inconceivable that an engine was found to be not worth fixing after devling deeper into it or customer backed out after ordering parts. This is where a shop that deals with the supplier can give a good sob story on why they need to return the parts. Worst case the supplier says no. It doesn't cost anything to try. A good reputable shop would never have handled it this way. The 1st thing any good shop would be concerned about is how they are going to get paid on a big dollar job and be upfront with costs before proceeding too deep. I think I got hosed on getting 2 bucket cylinders rebuilt but it was less than $2K not $20K+.
Unused parts still sealed in boxes normally can be returned-with a restocking charge. Technically--there is no such thing as a mechanics lien. A shop can take someone a customer to court over a dispute, but a shop cannot keep the owner/owners of vehicle/vehicles from their lively hood/ transportation/or use in a business. Have sat in court to give testimony over such matters/been down that road before watching it play out.
15k canadian is only 11,000 us. You're not going to purchase any other running driving dump truck for that amount. With a blown head gasket and a cracked frame rail, your truck would have been difficult to sell. So for $11,000 US you're going to have a fixed head gasket and the frame rail repaired. Doesn't sound out of line to me. Old used up dump trucks that are running and driving start at $30,000 US by me. ANything decent is now 40-50,000. Even if you don't keep the truck, it had to be fixed. So pay to get it fixed, and if you want something different or are bent around the axle because he won't warranty a 30 year old truck, sell the fixed truck and buy something else. I don't see the complications or the reasons to be upset. Either you can't afford the repair, or can't understand that trucks are going to break and need repaired, or you just don't like the way the mechanic does business. I don't think the repair cost is out of line, and if you just don't like the way your neighbor mechanic does business, you better drag your stuff to the freightliner buddy. And then you'll have written itemized work orders, and a bill that is twice as high. Look at it this way. Customer comes to you with a 10,000 project. You say I'm not sure its worth that amount of money to sculp your ditch bank and pull those trees, they say go ahead. 1/2 way through the project, they now want engineered drawings, DNR permits, copies of your insurance certificates blah blah blah. And then they get pissed because its costing too much (which you told them it would from the start) and now want you to stop. And only want to pay you $2,000 for your mobilization. And your at $8,000 of fuel and labor that you could have been billing to someone else, if you weren't dealing with this bad customer. And they think you can just pound sand. and go to court, and hire lawyers if you want any more money than that. They weren't sure they wanted this ditch cleaned out anyways. You're the bad customer here.
In my understanding here in the US, typically, a mechanics lien is a judgement against a piece of equipment or vehicle. There is no enforcement mechanism while the owner has possession against the equipment. Its just a record at the court house, and the lien passes to the new owner if said buyer doesn't do due diligence and check for the lien.
Sometimes, the stuff in the ‘inoperable’ lineup at a Ritchie sale brings stupid money because there is always somebody who thinks they can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear especially nowadays. B model mechanical Cats have value. Maybe thats an option to sell it. Just sayin
I think your missing the point, it's not about the money, it's about dropping a truck off saying check it out and coming back and the head is off at the machine shop getting machined. Then the next day you come back and the rear end it off with the frame welded. What do you do in this situation? Trust is already lost with the mechanic so do you trust him further to repair the truck or do you try something else. With the information provided I don't think we can blame the op for being hesitant. I'm really curious what you would have done in his stead when you show up and the head gone being machined.
What a $$$$**** show. This thread is a perfect example on why I will not run Caterpillar truck engines. Have been down a head gasket road several times, and know of numerous other guys with the same experience. Spacer plate?? *** is that? Don't need to worry about no stinking spacer plate on an N14 or 60 Series. Head gasket out? Yank the head(s), clean it up, new gasket, out the door. We have an N14 with 1,096,000 miles on it that needed a head gasket at 990k. Mechanic, who was a hell of a good mechanic but a little too particular pulled all three heads, and then said he wouldn't put them back on because there was some putting on the deck. I told him in no uncertain terms to polish it up best he could, put it together, and we would live with the consequences. Over 100,000 miles later and it's still running. Gets it's guts pulled out for 4 months of the year running 100-105k out of the field. So, like I said, Spacer Plate? What's that? If that Cat were mine I'd have prob told the mechanic to slap a new gasket in and shove it out the door. But that's just me.
Nope, on Cummins just have to worry of upper counterbores cracked, leakers, and then the block being junk. Every engine line has some issue that becomes a real expense at some point in life cycle.
This whole thread is why I quit outside work years back.
There is no prefect anything, ain't a damn thing that isn't a roll of the dice. That's life.
Another of many reasons I got out years ago.
I was curious and looked it up it's a garage keepers lien and they are allowed to keep the vehicle if repairs are not paid for, actually in order to place the lien they must keep possession of it or have a signed work order with cost of repairs. But if he tries to go that route without any documentation to go ahead with repairs it will be a waste of time. He said spacer plate and gasket not returnable as they were opened to measure liner height. Either way, he has zero interest in trying to do anything beyond just collect what he thinks he's owed.
Where did I say I wanted to find a running dump truck for $15k? I said I was contemplating spending over $100k or even a brand new one. Money is not the issue, I could write a check for a brand new one tomorrow, but it also doesn't mean i'm just going to throw money away at things that don't make sense. And if you must know, i'm buying another truck for $60k and if a good deal on something else pops up I will probably buy it too. Yes I know it would be a difficult sale, but a lot easier sale then trying to get another $13k or $15k for it when it's still not fixed properly and the $15k won't even get to pass inspection. I'm not saying his prices were out of line, i'm saying he was out of line proceeding with them before he had approval because I was on the fence if I wanted to fix it. No it didn't need to be fixed, I was going to dump it through an auction and let whoever buys it do as they please. Actually about his costs, I sent the estimate to my buddy at freightliner and he said it was not far off from what they would charge and their labour rate is $190/hr. As he predicted they use a cheaper labour rate to appear cheaper but tack on a ton of hours to make up for it. If they would work on the old truck I would have taken it there because guess what? They'd provide an estimate before they tore it apart and if I did go ahead with the repairs and there was an issue with something they did or the parts they'd fix it. How is that the same thing? Before he pulled the head he did not tell me a SINGLE number, that is a big reason why i'm so pissed about it, I had no idea on what a head gasket would even cost. Our conversation was "I am almost positive it's the head gasket and it's likely not worth fixing, very very small chance it's the compressor". How is that in anyway a go ahead to rack up a $15k bill? Even if I gave him the benefit of the doubt on pulling the head, where is the approval to spend $3k machining it and $1.5k on parts, and another $2.5k on frame repair? I already posted the text about the frame repair, I asked him to access what it needed for a cvip! And then he just went ahead. That's like a customer coming to me for a quote and me showing up and starting work and expecting to get paid for it. If a truck has a problem am I not entitled to having it accessed? Or is it either scrap the truck or fix whatever is wrong regardless of the cost or feasibility? I really don't understand your viewpoint. I believe it's because you're assuming a few things that are incorrect.
I was leaning more towards Michener Allen as their commissions are a fair bit lower, but Ritchie's is an option and they do bring good money. The plan was to send it to auction if it wasn't worth fixing, it's just regardless of what it may fetch at an auction, there is no way it's increased in value $15k from the repairs, I highly highly doubt it's even worth $15k with the repairs done. Before the repairs, I was thinking i'd probably get about $10k for it.
This is exactly my view. Like what more could I do other then drag the truck out of the shop to get him to stop going ahead with stuff?
Interesting, I didn't know the spacer plate was unique to Cat. I don't know enough about engines to make a $15k gamble, and I don't trust him enough to give me advice on that gamble especially when his opinion was once it backs out the door he's wiping his hands of it. So the gamble of if the head gasket will hold, and if he put everything back together properly is pretty risky to me. Now if I could trust he knew what he was doing and there was a good chance it would hold even 10,000 miles i'd go for it.
You wouldn't get much at auction. I've seen running dump trucks sell for under $3,000 at RB with good engines and current safety. Truck was older with less desirable air suspension but even had some service records. Was part of a complete sell out. Another dump truck went for a little over $4000. It's so much easier to say there was a miscomunication than admit they screwed up. Even if the shop had to do some disassembly to provide an estimate/quote, they should have told you upfront what cost that would be and after taking apart discuss with you how you want to proceed. So much to put back together as is or so much to rebuild. They should never have just went ahead with everything. I still think you hold them to $25K if that was the number they threw out.
That spacer plate and gasket should not have ever come out of the box IMO. He could have easily cleaned up the surface, put a sled gauge on it and checked it as it sat. If it had sunk liners, it would have been picked up right then and there and that'd be your smoking gun as to the root cause.
It's really a crapshoot of what it would get, but I know privately I could get $6k easy for the box and hoist, I just spent $3k on a new hoist last year. And $4k for the rest of the truck wouldn't be hard i'd imagine. I'm sure I could hold him to that price but he wouldn't do anything he didn't figure on and the quote is so vague. There is no mention of fluids or filters so I bet he'd finish and say here's your truck just put fluids and filters in it. And it missed stuff like checking gauges that aren't a 100% must, but are common sense to me on a truck of this age if doing a rebuild. Also outright missed at least a few little things for cvip, again I know he wouldn't eat them. So just from what I know, it would add at least 2-3k to that price without any other things popping up. Yesterday his comment was he isn't budging a penny to try and fix this problem.
Yea his response was it's the only way to check it properly, but it makes total sense to check it like that before spending $4500 on parts.
Canadian law my be different-Down here a garage keepers lien does nothing more than keep the owner from selling said vehicle without settling debt. If said vehicle is proven a part of lively hood and deemed necessary to pay debt shop has to release it. Also said shop will not gain control of vehicle without a title, shop would have to have correct title signed to show release of interest. Until it could be proven there is no title a lost title cannot be filed for and any interested parties have signed off on a release of interest. A vehicle cannot have two titles. So technically a garage keepers lien really isn't worth much. When It comes to towing and impounding that is a whole other section of law, once a vehicle is determined abandoned plates are pulled and DMV for that state has checked the vehicle for correct vin number and or vehicle was not stolen then it can be auctioned. A towing company does not have to release a vehicle until all towing services and storage are paid.
I highly doubt you'd get 4K for a bare truck with a bad engine. I think 1.5K would be generous. If you're not confident with their work, why did you take it to this shop in the 1st place? What if you told him you will pay a max. of say $28K to fix everything but you need some kind of warranty on the engine work even if it's just for labour. That might stop him from just slapping it together. If not it's no better than gambling on a used engine. It really is a **** show at this point.
TS is quite correct on Mechanic lien here, i had initiated several and received nothing until they attempted sale where title had that lien had to be paid to release. Quite a few ended up salvage yarded where the owners were given some paltry sum as junk I got nada. Not job related I could hold until 180 days and receive a salvage title to sell for moneys owed, not able to Profit just what had in it per my attorney at the time, he always added storage fees. Only managed that on three. I knew 95% of my clientele, took in odd machines only infrequently and is where ended up with liens.
sulades If your not worried about the money part of this i would take a loss get it out of his shop have it fixed or junk it or auction it ? Like i said before i dont know you and i dont know if anyone here does but its not a long trip to ether side of the fence to take a side. Life is to short for this kind of stuff.
It's not that i'm not worried about the money, it's just that i'm not that tight that it's keeping me up at night, if the truck sits for 6 months to resolve this it doesn't bother me one bit. To me the point is just as important as the money, for a lot of this repair I feel like what he did is basically stealing from me. He robbed me of the ability to decide if I wanted to do the repair, if I wanted a new head, or even a long block, etc or any other of the various others I could have went or simply gambled with a thinner spacer plate. If he was willing to work with me and even said he would drop parts prices to his cost, eat the spacer plate he shouldn't have bought, and cut some labour then I would budge and say put the smaller spacer plate in and I will run it and pay the bill. But when he says he won't budge a dollar on an inflated price? Not going to happen. Honestly if I was going to do anything to get it resolved quick, i'd just say keep the truck and walk away from it, because it's not worth 15k if it's not running properly. I do get your point sometimes it makes more sense to walk away from a few bucks then the hassle of fighting over it, but to me any resolution that results in him getting 100% of the bill and not accepting he did anything wrong is not something I can live with.
Then you may as well go in tomorrow morning and tell him you're done, keep the truck. And he's going to tell you see you in court.
He'd get nowhere in court without a signed work order and could lose in a countersuit. It's very expensive if a lawyer is required. He just went ahead and did things without the consent of the person paying the bill. That in itself isn't uncommon but usually not for such expensive work. Maybe he'd give a discount on the parts if he understood his options? Labour on engine should have some kind of warranty. You can always have other issues in relation to the safety done by someone else. The engine is already apart so it might be best to have him do that as long as there is some kind of warranty.
There is one huge problem here that hasn't been addressed. At this stage of this repair with each arguing back and forth--What kind of repair job does anyone who has followed this thread think this guy will perform?
That's my biggest issue right now. It's a waste of time and money if he can't do that right and I doubt he can, especially when he admitted he did one like it with the thinner space plate last summer and it failed shortly after. I don't want to gamble over $15k on that. As much as it sucks it's why I think I have to write off fixing the truck, at least for now.
He might. But he might also come to the realization at some point in the near future how badly he screwed up and he can't go the legal route because he will lose, badly. 100%. Unfortunately i've been to small claims court here before going after renters for damages and did it myself so I have a decent idea how it will play out. Having zero documentation for going ahead will not go well for him. And it's not like he got verbal confirmation and i'm just trying to get out of it, I can back up that I was pissed he went ahead by my texts asking him what's going on why are you so deep into repairs before we know what it will cost/if it makes sense to fix. Small claims court isn't expensive at all, it's just time consuming and a very slow process. I made it pretty clear that $13k as-is or $15k back together was a ridiculous option, and he said he wasn't eating any parts costs so. He won't provide any warranty at all unless it's a full rebuild.
suladas, You have this shop by the short hairs now. You took in a junk truck And they started repair with out proper approval. It's just his word against yours in court and he has more invested than you at this point. That shop is so screwed, they can't even get the POS out of their shop because you can go after them for destruction of property. Looks like you win but what? If this was my shop I would give you all your **** back at no charge and not make that mistake again. Come to think of it I did just that once a long time ago.
Why I said a warranty for his labour on the engine is so he doesn't just slap it together. Small claims court is up to $10,000. I thought you were talking at least $13,000. Although small claims is supposed to be so people don't require a lawyer judges can be very very very biased and almost have their mind made up before you even get to court. A pre-trial meeting to see if court can be avoided is usually requested and if it can't be resolved a court date is set usually 3 month's later. I went through a pre-trial for wrongful dismissal and the other party had a lawyer who mostly does personal injury. The judge made very offensive racial comments towards the lawyer I had write a letter and received advise from. He also said to me, "You're a welder and can't get a job in Alberta." Very condescending and not related to why I was suing. I was also in a supervisory position so there's not as many positions to apply for. Even another lawyer I had some dealings with told me the judge was out of line with his comments. When it went to court the judge there was a little better but still had an attitude that you could just go from 1 job to another. I provided a list of places I had applied but that wasn't good enough for him. The other party (who's lawyer apparently quit at the last minute) was ordered by the pre-trial judge to provide phone records. They never did, which would have proved my testimony and that they were outright lying, and there were no consequences what so ever. I did win and may have been awarded even more but I still felt like the other party were treated like victims. The court date was on a Monday and the Friday before the company tried to get the court date extended because their lawyer abruptly quit on them. I was kind of expecting they'd be successful. The judge did have an issue with this and said he was going to look into it but I doubt he ever did. I'm 100% sure it was just a stall tactic but it did go ahead on the Monday. If you go to court try to get witnesses to show up, maybe another repair shop that does engine work that can verify that some kind of warranty is common on major engine work or that work doesn't proceed until approved by the customer and a work order signed. Most shops want to ensure they will get paid before they do the work. My former neighbor wasn't happy with the cost to rebuild an engine so let the shop keep it. I'd bet it was more of he didn't think it should cost that much than the shop being at fault. I know someone who worked at that shop and they eventually sold the rebuilt engine. In your case if you abandoned the truck the shop would have a difficult time selling it unless they put a lot of time and more money into it to recoup their costs. I think it's best if you try to work with them at least on the engine.
Just doing a little searching on what is required from a repair shop and found this. This looks to be related to passenger vehicles but I think similar rules would apply to any vehicles or equipment being repaired. Pay particular attention to items 2 Estimate, Authorization of work and Authorization not in writing. I also read something about having to provide a 90 day or 5000Km warranty on repair work. Also a misdiagnosis and unnecessary repairs a mechanic/shop can be liable for the cost of those unnecessary repairs. I agree with 63 Caveman, you've got them by the short hairs. I would however try to be reasonable with them instead of blowing up at them. IMPORTANT: Changes to Alberta Consumer Protection Act | Buy, Sell and Research New and Used Cars - MDAAlberta.com
I think I may have an idea. I would probably go in and take pics of your truck and other stuff for a possible destruction of property claim. Talk to him again real short just be nice and hold your ground. Tell him you will think about it. Let the truck sit, if it gets moved outside you might have to make sure he's keeping the engine from getting damaged from rust. The longer it sits with a bill unpaid the better you can negotiate. You have your father's truck so he can't squeeze you on it sitting. Call a lawyer and see how long it can sit there before he tries to take the title. A simple consult should be free. I'm just worried of it sitting outside rusting the deck of the engine, that might take another call to a lawyer for destruction of property as well. 100% lawyers get involved everyone loses, it would be cheaper to pay the bill. Would also probably cost him the bill to get a lawyer too.
Curious how things are between the shop and you right now. Like have you blown up at him or he just thinks you're a little upset? Wondering if there's still a chance you could reason with him... You have this much to spend and he fixes everything he's started taking apart with a warranty on the engine to ensure it's done right.
probably time to change the thread title, truck probably won't be heating up any time soon
I disagree. I think things concerning the truck are getting plenty heated.
There's no warranty, I think on a rebuild he only warranty parts and that's if the supplier doesn't hose you and blame the mechanic.
There needs to be some kind of warranty on the labour. I think a shop has to have journeymen mechanics in order to operate in Alberta. Otherwise what's to stop the shop from having a laborer throw it together? A shop has to stand by their work. Like I previously mentioned I think it has to be a minimum of 90 days or 5000km's. The work also has to be done by someone component enough to be doing it. It's different if you take it to a friend of a friend to do in his backyard. If the shop just threw it back together and it failed in short order they could be sued for the cost to have it repaired properly by a competent shop. It's in their best interests to do a proper repair even if they are pi$$ed at the customer.
As Canuckistan tends to require card carry for any technical trades, cannot see skipping out of labor repair warranty.
So as I understand it he opened up a $4000 engine build kit to get the spacer plate gasket out so the 13 k would include you getting that whole kit back. Still not sure why guys do that. If you have any math skills you can do it with just the spacer plate. Also most times the measurement is a waste of time because it won’t show block fretting in a small area.
That's why way back in one of my posts I said {Not in my world}. Plus any and every B model that's left that hasn't been cut for shims is a automatic {Cut all six-but hire someone who knows what their doing. After all it's a 30 plus year old block.
Brand of cutting tools I own-this is the 50139 which covers most all Cat with different cutters. I also have the cutters for N14 and Series 60. It's buying all the cutters that's expensive. When quit in the very near future-it's already sold.
Those type tools are readily adaptable to next gen engines, unless wore the hell out are worth their weight in MONEY!!!
You bring up another good point that pisses me off even more about him, he's double charging on the quote. He has $4k for rebuild kit and $750 for head gasket, I didn't know the head gasket came with rebuild kit. The $13k doesn't include the $4k rebuild kit. Only engine parts are head gasket and spacer plate, both $750ish, and then the $3k head work. He says he is 33 hours into the engine alone now, and 16 more to put it back together which seems insanely high. Also added another $1k for "overhaul gasket kit", but when I look on online sites, out of frame gasket addition is only $250. Comparing prices to online he's hosing me really bad for pricing. Also a new loaded head is only $4k CAD, while I don't know if it's quality, but if it was i'd never spend $3k machining a 30 year old one, that's just foolish. Considering how much he's marking up the parts, if the one's i'm seeing online are quality, I think the price to rebuild would actually be well worth it.
You said it all. If you don't know and do not trust HIM to know then find someone that knows and get them to do the job for YOUR price and everyone will be happy. Right? GOOD LUCK!
I just wonder how he has 33 hours into it to get head off clean and measure.
Maybe that includes the frame repair?
It's much further along then that, there is nothing left in the front at all. Rad, alternator, fan, hood, bumper, absolutely everything is pulled off. There is nothing left in front of the firewall except the bare engine. But still seems like a lot, and if it was 33 hours to take it apart, why it is 16 to put it back together? I can see more to disassemble but not double.
Nope, frame repair was another 14 hours.
Does the shop have a low per hour rate compared to other truck repair shops? It sure appears they are really padding the hours. Keep careful track of all the hours they are charging. If it does go to court and you can show that other shops would have done the same type of work for a lot less hours would help your case.
Update, he asked this morning what I was doing with it, I replied I have no idea i'm not ok with either option. He said he's boxing it up and putting it outside. I think this is probably best.
He totally is, I don't know what his actual labour rate is, it says $135 in one spot, $141.75 in another and also a line item "10% off labour up to 400" but that line item adds $400 to the bill, so it's basically $150/hr. It's a lower rate for sure, but when I sent it to my buddy he said the overall labour amount wasn't far off from what they'd charge and their rate is $190/hr I believe.
He's trying to make it seem like he's less expensive. Putting it outside I can't see a good outcome but why did he go so far into it? I think it's always best if the same person that took it apart puts it back together because they should remember where everything goes and the hardware for it. Outside with the head off sounds like a recipe for disaster. Is it worth telling him he has so much to fix it or it goes to court? Him going so far without a signed work order or an estimate is strongly in your favor. Putting it outside in pieces after his screw up would make a good destruction of property case too. I think it's time to consult a qualified lawyer. Most will give a free 1/2 hour consultation. Getting a carefully written letter outlining your grievances and potentially going to court costs about $500. It's probably above small claims but he should realize that it would cost him a lot of money to hire a lawyer especially to go to court. It's very possible a lawyer would tell him he doesn't have a good chance of winning without a signed work order. Your lawyer outlining some of his serious mis-steps might convince him or his lawyer he doesn't have a good defense.
Once it's outside i'm going to access how the parts are and how well everything is labeled and put together (i'm assuming he will just put everything in the dump box) and call a shop about cost to rebuild, and ask if they would take over someone's work and get an idea if it might make sense. I think the engine parts would be the biggest concern, i'd imagine anyone who regularly does engine work could throw the accessories on blindfolded, the hardware if it isn't labeled well could add up nickle and diming i'm sure. If I did decide to just scrape the truck i'd probably just send it to auction, or call a wrecker and see what they'd offer for it in pieces. I am going to assume 99% chance the head, head gasket, and spacer plate will be kept in his shop. He hasn't agreed to budge on anything and doubt he will. It's in his best interest if I fix it though, because then i'd pay him the $2500 for the frame, if I scape it I won't pay a penny for it because it's of no value. If the engine isn't wrapped up and protected I will do it and take the truck right away. It would definitely ruin it in short order, as the oil pan is off too.
He can't keep parts that he wasn't authorized to remove like the head or oil pan. Makes a case for destruction of property even better. Talk to a lawyer pronto! It's not unlike paying $500 or $1000 to have a machine inspected before purchase. It's well worth it to know your best options cost wise. You have a friend in the business at another repair shop. Consider him your ace in the hole, ie/ expert witness. He could testify what the proper steps are to diagnose, estimate and what is required from the customer to go ahead with repairs. It's even better he's at a dealership and not some tiny shop.
I'm going to wait and see how it plays out, his stance is already softening, he asked what I would be ok with. Oh ya if it gets to court he's screwed, the word of a foreman at a big dealership will carry far more then his that he absolutely screwed up badly.
Maybe giving him an amount to finish what he's started would be good at this point? He's got to realize he gets nothing if it sits outside and he has no signed work order.
It takes longer to put together than to tear apart unless it's a pure rusty mess.
If it's done right.
Let him stew a few months, if no go have a wrecker take the truck when's he's gone. Idk if the heads inside what to do about that. He most likely has a bill for the "$3000" machining job that will start to sting over time. You do need to consult a lawyer for the possibility if he's going to sue you and how to protect yourself moving forward from it. A lawyer will not have a cost effective option for you to sue him.
I don't think he would ever accept anything like that. He has $4500 alone in head work, head gasket, and spacer plate and that's no labour. Even back together the truck is really not worth anymore then before, and let's say it's $10k, his bill is $15k back together without any discount. I would bet anything he wouldn't even accept $10k, and there is no way i'm giving that much anyway. Where I see it back together he's at $15k, i'm at $1k we will never see eye to eye on a resolution there. About the only reasonable option I see is him take the risk in a rebuild and sell it and i'd go with that as long as I was getting at least $5k out of the truck.
It is 30 years old and I have no doubt some of it was pretty rusty coming apart, some things could have never been taken apart even. But I totally figured the hours he says into it are really padded and the re-assembly is low. That was part of my concern of the rebuild like old wiring, hoses, etc could add up in the thousands quick if they require replacement on re-assembly.
If it went to court and could prove gross negligence or something along those lines on his part, you could be awarded some or all of your court costs including lawyers fee's. If you went for the max. $10,000 in small claims could do it yourself if fully prepared. You also get to ask leading questions being the plaintiff. There would be a meeting either in a lawyers office or the court before it ever went to trial. It's highly possible he might back down if it was explained to him how strong a case you have and how weak if any of a defense he has. In person witness is best by a long shot and you have your foreman friend. You could possibly call a good law firm and have a student assigned to help you. They would get guidance from experienced lawyers but you would pay a lot less.
There's no guarantee of getting sanctions and if you or your lawyer does a poor enough job you could be subject to sanctions, only a fool goes in poorly represented. A lawyers cost also has not much to do with the job they will do.
Probably if I was in your shoes I'd try pay him what's he bills minus the machine shop and parts since that was clearly not authorized, and then walk away from this guy with your hands and conscience clean. If he doesn't accept that he messed up by ordering that stuff and eat it then it a impass till someone gives.
Is this going to turn into another 28 page D6C loss of oil pressure?
Having a letter from a lawyer doesn't necessarily mean you're going to court. It can however make the other party very nervous especially if they know they went ahead without proper consent that is common in the industry. The other party will likely think they will need their own lawyer and that could cost them a bundle and it might be in their best interests to try to settle or work something out. If they think you are bluffing or don't respond they might not think so if your lawyer requests a meeting where both parties lay their cards on the table. It doesn't have to mention going to court initially. It could say something like if we can't come to a resolution we will have no choice but to take further actions as required. It should also include the term, "Time is of the essence". This is important in legal dealings. It gives them a limited amount of time to reply. It could be 15 or 30 days, etc. Your lawyer could advise how long it should be. You can do all the necessary work like you're prepared to go to court including filing a statement of claim and not actually intend to go court. Hopefully the other side realizes they should try to resolve the issue. You can cancel the statement of claim anytime up till the trial date set. Have heard of cases being settled the morning of the court date. The initial letter and response will help dictate how to proceed. A meeting could be a likely second step if they claim they did nothing wrong.
Hopefully not but that one did have a good ending for the OP in the end. In a way it is similar where a shop screwed up.
14 pages, half way there! I got one now with over heating under load. Did some testing Monday and could not find any problem in the shop. I will be moving equipment for them today to see if I can duplicate the problem. Fun, fun, and more fun.
I'll think about that, if I thought he'd take $4500 and I take truck as-is and he keeps the parts he supplied i'd probably do it just to end the headache. I also don't believe for a second he has 33 hours into the engine, so it would give him some towards the frame repair which I shouldn't even pay a penny for. And i'd bet he could probably break even on the machining and parts he bought, so in the end he wouldn't even take a loss, probably still make a bit of money overall. Whereas i'd probably not get much over $4500 for the truck and be out quite a bit.
Sometimes your just out money sometimes, a fool does it twice.
Well I don't think it's going to matter. Going back and forth and he still can't accept he did anything wrong and wants 100% of the bill, including the parts he bought on his own accord, so i'm not even going to waste my time making any offer. Pounding my head against the wall would do more good then trying to reason with him at this point. Can't get a straight answer if he did any troubleshooting or just pulled the head (his estimate says pulled head first thing no checking of anything), or why he went ahead with parts without approval, keeps deflecting to something else.
Talk to a lawyer ASAP to get some good advice on how to proceed. No point in a bunch more hummin and hawin. I think a letter from a lawyer might tune the guy in even if he doesn't want to admit he screwed up.
He'd be totally screwed if it turned out it was the compressor after all.
Not in his mind, I guarantee he wouldn't take any blame. It's really got me wondering if the compressor could have been it. I'm sure the head gasket may not have been in great shape, but for all I know it may still have been ok.
I wonder if I should go the way of getting him to put it back together (assuming he hasn't started to box it up, pretty sure it was a bluff and hasn't done anything yet) his quote says it's only $2300 more in labour, which I could say the truck will be worth that much more easily and we will figure out the bill after. That way it puts the onus on him to get it running and I can easily check the compressor after, and if it is still putting pressure in the coolant and crankcase, he won't see a penny for the engine work. If i'm going to offer like $7-8k, i'd rather pay a bit more and get it back running as it'll be worth more, or I could just run it till it blows. I don't know, I feel like i'm screwed no matter which way I go.
He's the one who should feel screwed. I think you should get some professional legal advice right away. I wouldn't trust it to be done right at this point.
He pulled the truck outside today, oddly enough he parked it in my space and has no intention of trying to hold it, and can't put a mechanics lien on it, no idea what his plan is. However no parts with it. Only hood in the box and a few small pieces in the cab. He did seal it up ok, put the oil pan back on and put a piece of cardboard on the block and bolted down spacer plate on top, then covered the whole front end with a tarp. I do have concerns if we get a bunch of snow/rain but for a short while I don't think it's hurting anything. I was hoping the compressor was somewhere, but no dice.
Cardboard holds water......
For sure, but there is a tarp over the whole front end to protect against water. I don't intend to leave it like that long, I will bring it inside or protect it better if there is any rain/snow in the forecast, but right now there's nothing.
I'd hazard a guess he's holding the other parts hostage. You can't fix the truck without them so you have no choice but to give him the OK. That might work for him if you had signed a work order and backed out. It's more likely to help you if you filed a destruction of property claim though. You really need to get some legal advice right away. It's Alberta, the weather could get real ugly in a hurry. Enough time has been spent playing games and guessing what the guy is up to. You need to put some real pressure on him. You don't want this thread to compete with the D6C loss of oil pressure thread for best comedy award in the equipment repair category.
I don't think i'd get any other advice aside from the legal route is long and expensive, best to try and settle it amicably. I'm thinking i'll try once more to see what his plan is and if any budging to try and resolve, if not i'll remove box send the truck to auction and sell box privately, and if he wants to try and come after me for his bill i'll deal with it then.
It costs nothing to get a consultation with a lawyer. Call the law society of Alberta and they will give you a list of 3 lawyers who deal with your type of issues and provide a free 1/2 hour consultation. The guy is clearly in the wrong. It would cost him a lot to hire a lawyer and a lawyer may tell him he is clearly in the wrong and has no defence. I'm not sure if commercial vehicle repair shops have to be Amvic licensed. You might want to contact them because they have specific rules repair shops must abide by. If this shop previously missed the cracked frame or anything else is in the CV inspection their license to do inspections could be on the line. It' not a bad idea to get legal advice and it's a lot better than guessing and assuming what the guy will do. Bare truck with bad engine and/or an engine pulled apart with key parts missing, you'd be lucky to get $1000 for it from what I've seen at auctions. Probably a lot less. It appears you may be second guessing yourself and it's playing with your mind. If everything you've posted is the truth, the guy did not have authorization to take your truck apart, order parts or do any repairs. That's pretty cut and dry. How can he have a defence without any signed or otherwise authorization to proceed? It's in your best interests to get professional advice unless you like throwing thousands of dollars away.
So you have the truck without a rad or head? Go get a used engine complete and a rad and drop them in. In a weekend you’re up and running.
I agree with this and suggested a used engine early in this thread but he was worried about warranty on a used engine. He might have a case for destruction of property too. That's why I think some legal advice would be beneficial.
I was looking in salvage yards for parts a while back. A lot of them do seem to have a short warranty period. Sounds like the bigger places run the engine out of frame to check that it runs ok and has decent oil pressure. Doesn't hurt to ask anyways.
It would take 5-15k from a lawyer to get $1 out of anyone. I do agree on a free consultation especially to protect yourself from getting sued as well. He still has that "$3000" machining bill, that I suspect never happened, that will eat his his wallet. Wait this one out or even toss a salvage yard engine in.
There's a few places around Edmonton that could have used engines. I wonder if an engine was found if the sale could be dependent on having the engine checked out at a shop with a test stand or a dyno?
I had a letter written by a lawyer. It cost $500. Small claims is up to $10,000 and you can do yourself if fully prepared. The big issue for me is the shop never received a signed work order or any other consent to go ahead. I think a lawyer would inform them they don't have a good chance of success. A letter with the lawyers letterhead carries more weight than one from an individual. It doesn't mean you're going to proceed to court but can definitely tell the other party you're serious. I can see this shop going to a lawyer and the 1st question is, Did you have a signed work order? No, then you have a (big) problem. An honest (I know not many) lawyer would tell them their chances and the OP's if it hypothetically went to court. A sleazy lawyer might string the shop along to get more money. A consultation is free and a letter is about $500 if the lawyer says you have good case. It's worth $500 to me to see how the shop responds. They might want to work something out that's agreeable to both parties.
If you think mechanics are sleazy wait till you start dealing with lawyers.
Don't think i'm going to have any luck with used, called around and not only does no one have one, they have others calling looking for one too. There is some in the states but I think with exchange and freight it's just way too expensive and it's even more of a gamble paying for it without seeing it.
There are lawyers that will give you good advice on your options the same as there are good mechanics that will do the same. I don't think you'll be able to work something out with the shop by yourself. Get a free consultation and if the lawyer thinks the shop clearly screwed up, see what it would cost to send a letter to the shop to try and come to an amicable agreement. Then you will at least know the shops position. His word against yours could drag on forever. A letter from a lawyer could make the shop realize they don't have a leg to stand on. It's also possible that the shop taking it apart without a signed work order is clearly in the wrong and has no defence. You could also have a very good case for destruction of property. I think without some legal advice you're going to drive yourself crazy wondering what to do and second guessing yourself. A consultation is free.
Took a few pics of the truck. Aside from the head, turbo, air compressor, exhaust manifold, valve covers, injector lines, jakes, thermostat housing, is there any items i'm missing from the engine? I wonder how hard it would be hard to get those other things? As for other stuff like rad, overflow tank, fan, grill, alternator, power steering tank, I can't imagine would be hard or expensive to get. If I went with a full rebuild, would another shop have an issue taking over from this point I wonder?
So here's my question. Why do people ask for advise and then completely ignore it? See this on this and other forums; "hey I have a small engine problem what should I do?" "ok I didn't do that and now it's worse, what do I do now?" This is why forums burn out, the good people get burned out doing it over and over for nothing gained. You got the advise, you chose otherwise. Stop asking for people to justify your decisions. You want to be a hard ass to teach this guy a lesson? Why? This whole thread is clear you need to learn a lesson too, stop insisting you're right, especially when you are out of your depth. Smart people aren't smart because they know everything, they're smart because they take the advice of experts they hired.
Not impressed by that guy's effort into contamination control. No caps/plugs on any of the lines. At a bare minumum at least zip tie a bag over them to keep the crap out.
Have to agree with Zewnten for the most part. Why are you afraid to get a FREE consultation with a lawyer? On the advice of a lawyer wouldn't it be worth $500 to see what the shops defence is to taking your truck apart without your consent? Is there something you've left out and think it makes you in the wrong? Going by what you've said in this thread, the guy butchered your truck and now you're looking at buying back parts that I don't think he can legally keep. If he thinks you owe him money he can sue you, not take your truck apart and keep key components. What if there was a freak blizzard and snow and water got into everything because he shoved it outside without properly caping and covering it. Never thought there'd be another thread like the D6C one but this one is sure going in that direction. Quit second guessing yourself and get a professional opinion on your best options.
Well he is dumber then I thought, figured i'd pull title today after getting his invoice in the mail for $11,600+GST and there is a garage keepers lien, but the best part? He put on the lien he released the vehicle to me! He actually put in proof he is not entitled to a lien because he didn't retain possession, unless he plans to forge my signature on a work order. I spoke to a lawyer who i've used in the past, his recommendation was if i'm ok with it as is just let it be and if he sues me deal with it then, even if I feel like he owes me a few grand right now it's not worth the effort trying to go after it, but document and take pictures of everything I do, in case it does go further. As far as sending a letter his advice was he could, but depending on the person most people will pretty much ignore the letter and not care. However this was before I found out about the lien. So now there is a clock, he has 6 months to try and enforce the lien, but if i'm fixing the truck i'm not going to sit around waiting, I want to get the lien removed asap. His defense is he did have consent and he told me the head had to come off. So that's why I think a letter is a waste of time. He's also changing his story, his defense for the frame repair was he told me he had to tear it apart to access it before he started. His story is changing to try and cover his *** and show he did nothing wrong. Nope i've left nothing out i've been totally honest cause I wanted an objective opinion and i've got nothing to hide. I do believe his opinion on any damage after it's outside would be "I gave it back to you, so it's your problem".
As far as the truck i'm going to call a few shops next week and see if they would take it over, and get an idea on pricing. If the aftermarket parts i'm seeing online are quality, the pricing shouldn't be bad to just buy new loaded head, turbo, etc. I'm sure the misc non engine parts I can get from a wrecker for pennies. Stuff like fan, alternator, compressor etc I might just be better off with rebuilt/new.
If you sent a letter from your lawyer, it can cause people to either no longer talk to you and only talk through lawyers (expensive) or cause them to lawyer up. It can be an expensive gamble. Get a pad and a ped, go back through this thread and write down what you said and when, you probably have a good "logbook" of info, combine that with any call times and any times you recommend talking to him in person and your recollection of what was said in those conversations. Do this now. If he claims he talked to you at this date and there's no proof and it's a he said she said moment, your log book of conversations backed up by your advice requests online will be very helpful. If you get your lawyer involved with the title lean, your lawyer does have to ethically go "scorched earth" towards the mechanic, and should try to get your parts back or even destruction of property, which I think is doubtful to get, so you could threat that he just removes the lean and you walk away or you go after the lean and you will want money, and possibly sanctions, doubt you get sanctions though.
They have already started court proceedings with the lien so I think a letter is in order. You should reply to the lien so a letter from your lawyer is the best way. The shop might think you're worried but you could turn the table where they're the worried ones. Even giving back your parts is worth a few thousand bucks. I've been through something a little similar on a used truck I bought that claimed new brakes but the only thing new was the pads. The drums were 110% worn and 1 actually split. The seller had a commercial vehicle inspection done but the shop never pulled any wheels. Funny thing is it was a 3 ton truck so didn't need the inspection. A lawyer I had dealt with in the past suggested a student lawyer to keep costs down. Anyway a letter was sent to the seller and the shop. The seller had a lawyer from a big law firm ($$$$). Had a meeting at the court house. Everybody was wondering what was in the box I took in on a dolly. The shop owners jaw dropped when I opened it and pulled out the split brake drum. It was settled out of court pretty quick and cost me about $600. I got about $1850 back of the the $2200 I spent. The owner of the brake shop that fixed it was a friend of mine and would have gone to court no problem. The expensive lawyer was trying her hardest but the shop who didn't have a lawyer knew their inspection license was on the line. They took the sellers word the brakes were all new. I think I could have got even more of my money back but I got the bulk of it back and was OK with that. The thing with sending a letter from a lawyer is it says you're not fooling around. The shop may ignore it. That's why it has to include the term, "Time is of the essence". The shop will have no idea if you'll go any further or not but there is a good possibilty they will look back on what they might have done wrong such as proceeding without a signed work order or alternately a text or e-mail authorizing them to proceed. Claiming they had a verbal go ahead isn't going to cut it under any circumstances in this day and age. If they consult a lawyer will cost them. If the letter from your lawyer points out there was no authorization to proceed, their lawyer may advise them to try and come to a resolution. Even if they made up some sob story, there's a good chance their lawyer would advise them without authorization they don't have much of a defence. You have to realize a lawyer is going to cost them money too. To file in small claims court (up to 10K) I think is still $25 and you can represent yourself. You can also have your mechanic foreman as a witness. They don't have to know you're representing yourself or your witness is a friend. The fact you have a witness might make them further wonder what how strong or weak their defense is. Even then if it can't be settled there could be a mediator suggested. If that's a no there will still be a pre trial meeting with a judge where both parties "Lay their cards on the table". I did this in a wrongful dismissal by myself. The other side had an ambulance chaser lawyer at the meeting. Interesting that just before the court date, the other side applied to have the court date moved back because their lawyer abruptly quit. I won in court and the judge had an issue with their lawyer quitting at the last minute. I just think that with the amounts involved a letter wouldn't be a bad thing. Still think there's cause for destruction of property. Even in small claims you could go for the maximum and have this to make your chances even better. If it was me I'd send the letter and see if I got a response. I think you probably would considering they're trying to put a lien on the truck. If you don't hear back it only costs $25 to file a statement of claim. Then they might take it more seriously and would have to file a statement of defense. If they ignore that you could get a summary judgement just by showing up on the court date. Them trying to put a lien on the truck is their way of threating you they'll take you to court. Put the ball back in their court. They might re-evaluate their position. Nothing in writing authorizing them to proceed is a BIG DEAL for them. I hate seeing people get screwed around. Shady people or shops get away with and keep doing it to more people. Time to put a stop to it. They kind of did here with unscrupulous used car dealers years ago.
So what ever happened? Did you ever get the truck fixed?
Last I read he picked up the truck and boxes of parts and did nothing with it. He got another dump truck and mentioned maybe putting the truck in pieces in an auction. I think he was conflicted on what to do and ended up doing nothing. I still think the shop is at fault for going ahead without proper authorization and a signed work order. They never gave him the option to decide if it was worth fixing or not. They just went ahead and started taking it apart which is wrong on many levels.
I removed the box and took the truck and box to auction as I was tired of looking at it. Although I really do regret it as the truck only got like $500 and $2000 for the box, I ended up with a little over $2000 after auction fees. I bought another truck that i'm using. Heard nothing from the shop, and still won't say a word to me. I'm pretty sure it's the end of this, I doubt he has any plans to come after me for the money and as much as i'm pissed how much he cost me, I just want to move on.
Don't think there's much you can do now the truck is gone. Might have been worth it to keep looking for a good used engine, possiblity on the shops dime. Not sure why you were afraid to take legal action??
He answered that question in post #290. Refraining from legal action does not necessarily constitute fear, in this case it appears as though it indicates wisdom based on the counsel of a lawyer.
Everyone always loses with lawyers involved, well except the lawyers. I'd have found an used engine and put it in and auctioned the truck but that's time and money, glad you got it sorted out with a little bit of money back.
He mentioned his lawyer said "if he was OK with it". If it's a he said she said kind of deal, which it sounds like it was then it comes down to what is the law. The law is that no work should proceed without a signed work order. There is no harm in sending a carefully worded letter from a lawyer. This is a good way to, at the very least, get the shops version of events. Maybe there was a misunderstanding, maybe some kind of deal could have been worked out, etc. A letter could simply ask the shop to clarify what went down. It doesn't have to be of a threatening nature. The shop is in a bind though if they can't produce a signed work order, text messages or anything else other than what they claim was said. Now if they have several text messages indicating they had authorization to proceed, then they have the upper hand and should have filed a mechanics lien. If the truck owner is confident he never gave consent, he shouldn't be worried if the shop threatens a mechanics lien. It actually gives him a perfect platform for a countersuit(s). He got less than $500 for the truck after auction fee's. There is every possibilty the truck would have brought more if the engine wasn't torn apart with all parts in boxes. He might have got more selling it for scrap or just selling the good parts of it or both. I filed a claim against a seller and a shop over completely worn out brakes on a CVIP inspected truck. They settled out of court. The shop had a lot to lose going to court. They could have been stripped of their license to do CVIP inspections or suspended for several month's. Like I mentioned previously don't assume what the shop will think if they get a letter from a lawyer. There could be bigger things they need to worry about than just a dump truck they took apart without consent. Having their name all over social media in a bad light is also a big concern that could cost them in lost revenue.
Sending a letter from a lawyer can do harm, as I mentioned earlier in the thread
I did too and fully agree. It can be a very friendly letter, just asking what transpired and what's the current status of the truck. No blame just clarification. Pretty sure the shop will know if they screwed up (whether or not they want to admit it) and a letter from a lawyer could cause them to reconsider their position and try to work with the customer. The letter isn't a threat, just a friendly tap on the shoulder. Hey, what can we do to rectify the situation, like a mediator would ask. A letter from the truck owner wouldn't work because there's already been a lot of conflict and arguing. The letter is a really suttle threat since it's on a lawyers letterhead.
Some people are just dying to get the lawyers involved, it seems . . .
You send me a letter from a lawyer all further communications will be with a lawyer, I won't risk making my case worse by trying to communicate with them. Good luck after that.
I misread a post. If you're getting nowhere, then what do you do? If it's a simple miscommunication a letter from a lawyer could clear things up. In this case, it appears they were at an impass. The shop threatened a mechanics lean I'd guess as a scare tactic because they never acted on it, so they threw the 1st punch. If they were certain they had authorization to proceed with the truck a letter from a lawyer shouldn't bother them, especially if it was just to get the status of the truck and/or to see if something can be worked out regarding the repairs. It's not much different than if a shop had your machine for month's and nothing was bring done even when it was authorized. When 2 sides can't work things out a lawyer can often get both sides stories and then determine what might be a way to resolve the issues. Some people don't like confrontation or know how to deal with it. A friendly letter from a lawyer won't hurt. How the other party responds can often be a good indicator if they might be in the wrong or if they are in the right. If they respond back basically telling the lawyer off, there's a good chance they screwed up. If they respond back respectfully, stating everything that transpired and have evidence to back it up, maybe they aren't the ones in the wrong. There are many instances where people feel they were overcharged or they feel extra work was done that wasn't needed. They make up some story and go to a lawyer. Lawyer initially believes them but after getting all the facts, realizes it was just somebody thinking they were charged too much. A letter from a lawyer can clear things up when the 2 parties are at odds. It doesn't hurt if it's done right.
Lawyers are like nuclear weapons. If the other side uses them, you have to also.
Not necessarily, if a letter is just asking for clarification. If a shop did nothing at all wrong they could simply reply with a more detailed explanation of the invoice. They don't need a lawyer for that. In this case a letter asking for details of what was done could seem pretty routine. Lawyer gets a detailed account and tells truck owner the charges are reasonable for the work done but then the bigger questions come up... Was the work authorized and how was it authorized? Where is the proof for all of the work being authorized? What is the standard for proof? I think this is why major work orders must be signed. It's pretty hard to dispute something you've signed. It's equally hard to justify doing the work without a signature. I'm sure there are many customers who've felt they've been overcharged. They embellish their story to a lawyer. Lawyer sends a letter. Shop replies with a detailed account of all the work done. Lawyer goes over all the work done and the charges. Lawyer finds it is reasonable and tells their client they don't have a case. People dispute lawyers fee's all the time so lawyers are used to it.
Always
I disagree. If you did everything by the book you don't need a lawyer to reply to a simple request for information. If it escalates then you might need a lawyer. I can see a lawyer being consulted but I can also see a lawyer saying to just send what was asked for. Why spend $500 or more for a lawyer to respond to a simple request.