I’m evaluating the options of buying smaller Terex scrapers vs 627’s. The main reason being the significant cost difference but also the lack of qualified operators. Terex TS14 units are notoriously tough and simple to repair so I think it’d be a good choice for a younger and less capable operator pool that we’ve got available here in GA. Plus mechanics are hard to find for newer machines or you have to go to the dealers and have their service men come out for big money. My inclination is and always has been to run Cat but we aren’t moving mountains (X<500K CY) and there all fairly quick hitters. I’m also pretty sure we’re due another slow down within 3-4 years, so I’d rather not get over extended by laying out $150K per unit for some 627E’s when I could get a solid TS14B for about half that price and get it all paid for before the next slump. What input would/could you all offer on this thought of Cat vs Terex? Anything else I should factor in here?
Terex specific parts available (parts that can't be sourced from outside venders) for TS14Bs?
Stan, were talking about the pros and cons of Terex vs Cat scrapers
Lack of available parts for Terex would be a con.....
Yep, and replacement parts availability is IMO #1 question I ask. My experiences with TS14Bs are very limited; early versions would travel though slippery-watery ground better versus 627s which would get stuck and require a push out a local sand mining pit. So I'll give 1 pro for Terex.
I was under the impression that the Detroit’s and Allisons behind them were fairly common place. Is this not the case?
Sure motor and trans probably wouldn’t be bad. I don’t know enough to say they’re easy or hard. Beyond power there are still planetary hubs, control valves etc etc. It may not be bad, just worth looking into. There are guys on here that run them, I’m sure they can say yay or nay on parts. I’m partial to Cat but that’s just from exposure and experience.
Stan, I miss understood your original message. I just replied to junk yard and was under the impression that parts were readily available due to the engines being Detroit’s and the transmission being Allison. I agree with your point though. No parts equals no work and then the purchase price becomes irrelevant. I suppose this is why the guys that run these keep several for parts?
Yeah I’m hoping they’ll chime in on this thread. I just left a large Omaha based company to return home and they run almost exclusively Cat for the very reasons were discussing. It’ll be a little different for me going from unlimited equipment fleet and support network to boot, back down to a company of 30.
631G, 60 series engine production stopped in 2011 with the 14L. OEM new parts (like new head castings, cranks etc) will probably become scare and pricey, IMO. A few of the S. Cal contractors have used 60 series engines to re-power Cat scrapers with great success; I'll miss that source for reliable economic engines. Relying on the used parts market throws a monkey wrench into any system that 'wants everything' yesterday. Allison trans, no problem parts are available from trans specialist shops. Another PRO for Terex; no cushion hitch rebuilding and expensive parts. TNT Blanchard is running 25+ TS24Bs, hardcore Cat mechanics are giving the scrapers a thumbs-up. Blanchard's fleet also uses 60 series re-powered 651Bs working side by side with the Terex scrapers. The ONLY Terex negative-con is a machine sitting idle waiting for a simple OEM part like a draft-arm to bowl trunnion ball replacement part. Hopefully other HEF members will chime in with their experiences.
Stan, I wasn’t aware of the ceasing of production of the 60 series. That really changes the equation. You’re 100% right about the price increase and availability of the engine components dropping off quickly. I’ve also read about contractors updating older 57’s and 660’s to tier 2 series 60 engines in California to meet the emissions controls req. have you seen anyone repower with Cummins?
631G, Cummins dealers have repowered a few machines; scrapers up to 630 series size for customers with gov grant money. Cummins X15 14.9 liters Stage 5 (2019) could possibly be used to meet Tier 4 final reg's versus Cat's C18 ACERT. If you can buy the engines with SAE 0,#1 or 2 bellhousing it's not to complicated repower scrapers. Cummins newer emissions DPF-SCR-Douser is a single compact unit; helps with installations. Cat dealer repowers: Each dealer shop-location individual repowers can be different. Some repowers require custom parts for example 988F to C15 988G spec'd engine. C15s, two different displacements (liters), on-road not the same as off-road, different connecting rods etc. Need D8T bellhousing, modified. Custom hydraulic pump, relocate oil coolers, modified fan drive, radiator-intercooler, wiring looms etc. Time wise 5 months (local dealer req'd 7 months). IMO, Cal gov could save money by not offering repower grant money for certain models. Before jumping into a repower project you need to research and find out a few details; otherwise you'll jump into a cluster-F. Our' economy; I am leary. Always been 8-10 years cycles during my lifetime.
Every TS14B I was around had 4-71s front and back. No series 60s I know of unless someone repowered them.
Ha, you're getting technical! Series 60 or 50 would be over engine-ed for TS14s repower. TS14B 1972 4-71 GM, N65injectors, Gross-Hp 160 / Net-Hp 144 @ 2100Rpm Max torque 423lb-ft @ 1400Rpm 6-speed Allison CTD-3461, integral TC-420 torque convertor Net-Hp both engines 288Hp Length: 44" Width: 29" Height: 42" Weight dry: 1780lbs Euclid-Terex manufactured differentials, axles and wheel planetary
I was referring to this:
I know what you referring, LOL OBVIOUSLY I SCREWED UP ! I wouldn't purchase TS14s unless they were cheap because differential-gearing parts or replacements might be difficult to find. Series 60s or 50s won't work; to much torque and horsepower for the application. Cummins 4 banger, JD, Deutz?
20 plus years ago I worked for a guy that had a TS-14 that he replaced the front engine with a 6-71. IIRC it was a pretty simple upgrade that didn't cost an arm and a leg. I didn't run it alot but in my opinion putting the 6-71 in front made a huge difference. It all but eliminated the need for a push cat in alot of situations. Where as we almost always needed a push cat with the 4-71.
From my view point the TS 14s weak link is transmissions if you get some get a spare front and rear transmissions. finals and differentials have not given much problems or pick up a junker for parts
All wanted to follow up and close out this thread. We've decided against scrapers all together and are moving to purchasing haul trucks. We just don't have the men to run these machines and the companies that have scrapers here in Atlanta have that dirt locked down from a price stand point.
I'm a one man band so thats not my arena, but if you are short of man power, why haul trucks? Is this a long distance haul? One man can move dirt with a scraper, but with haul trucks you need several to make it worthwhile on the loading end.
I agree here, a scraper goes down, oh well, a loader goes down... it shuts the whole job down.
Agreed 200%. There really isn’t a cheaper way to move earth. What I have found is that the skill level required for operating haul trucks is less than that required of a scraper hand making locating the labor easier and broader. Additionally given the size of our company and the infrequency of our landing projects that are well suited to scrapers we cannot support owning them, at least not at this moment. The companies here locally that do run scrapers we just cannot touch on a cost per cubic yard. They’re setup with gps, modern fleets and most importantly they have the right people. The last being the most important.
I’ll chime in here with a question, since I’m investigating trying to put together a couple of double barrel scrapers to finish a job. What started out as a dirt pan job ground to a halt with 50+ inches of rain last 4 months. Now I need to get back at it, but it’s going to be a while before the 200,000 lb tractor pans can stand up in the borrow area. So my old guy says let’s get some 627s, said they used them in Louisiana in swampy ground.(?). But I’m like you, I’ve found some old TS14Bs for cheap, and they’re lighter to boot. But will they do the job in gumbo clay? Or, do I just need to haul a 350 excavator, three 25 and 30 ton artics, and a spreading dozer up there and try to topload and hope the 6x6 artics can wallow around enough to get out of the borrow area? Small job, really, need to move 50,000 yards of grass growing dirt to cover a large 4:1 slope in the next 45 days, if it quits raining.
Plateau Excavation is going to be hard to beat in the south especially around Atlanta Get you some 30 yd pull pans and put them behind D8'ks or D9'hs if you have a haul of 1300ft one way or less and they can work all year long in bad conditions the low drives seam to do better than the high drives and the cost is pennys compared to high drives. Travelling forward the tracks really don't wear that fast one d8 rail new can be had for around $4000. you can get 6000 hrs plus reverse is harder on all tracks and always wears quicker and the dozers can be used for many other applications with the push blades ect. A quad track rubber track $10,000 per corner i had one go out at 1800 hrs and when they showed up to replace the rear right was going out also cogs were falling to pieces.
Personally I have never seen and wheeled scrapers work effectively in very wet ground. Slippery ground, yes, soft ground, no. Did you put any numbers to renting a quad track or two and whip it out with your double pans? The speed compared to steel tracks would be much faster and may be more efficient even if you hauled lighter loads in the pans to stay on top.
2500 to 3000 bank cubic yds per day with 28 yard yard scraper and that's 21 yds struck on a 1000- ft run d9h 230 gallon fuel tank and d8k 170 and about 80 percent of fuel used per day 6yd excavator and 8 terex ta40 gen 5 haul trucks - 40 ton haul trucks hauling 22 bank cubic yds per load plus a d6 or d8 knock down dozer on a 3/4 mile run I can remember load counts of 70 to 77 so average truck moved per day was around 1650 bank cubic yards 10 hrs those terex ta40's needed refueled they held 122 gallons my cat d400 ejectors would last a bit longer as they had bigger fuel tanks
Good input, Fiat. That’s what I was looking for; something to study about which way to go. You’re saying it can be done with artics, I believe, but cost per yard will be a good percentage more. But hopefully we will get a flash drought starting next week and the tractor pans can run up there and knock it out in a week. I’ve never seen a real flash drought in April in the mid south, but I can hope for one anyway.
Yes that's right depending on job site with short hauls the crawler pans work great and they can take care of most of their own mess The haul trucks will have to have additional support from the dozer's but the production will always be there with the haul trucks I use to own a small fleet of good ts18's they did great job all around and were cheap on fuel I sold them off to someone in Ohio as I had no work for them they don't look good sitting around and the new paint faded fairly quickly lol. you tube terex and haul trucks
Yes, Plateau is who I was thinking of regarding scrapers and low costs. They want a job, they get it. I’ve always liked the idea of dozer pulled scrapers. Out in the Midwest McAinach (spelling?) ran/runs D10s paired to pans and moves serious cy. Most of the projects we bid fall into the under 1500ft haul range so tractor pans could be an option. Definitely something to consider moving forward.
Even with top-notch operators, Quadtracs pulling scrapers are belt-eating ba$tards. My opinion? A few 28 yard pans behind wheeled 450's, and a Quad equipped with a pusher blade to get them full and through. If the tractors with tires have single floaters, all the better. If you're thinking wiggle wagons might get in and out, those tractors will run cirlcles around them, plus the scrapers can clean up their own mess. Also, I would be renting these rigs. CaseIH tractors will move dirt cheap, but whether it be on tires or tracks, transmissions are all the same, and are a trouble spot as well.