Got a D5N SN AGG01763 needing an undercarriage and wanting some advice. Was planning on putting a couple hundred hours on this dozer before deciding to replace the undercarriage or keep it but found an issue yesterday that has me thinking I should do something sooner. Found that the pivot shaft bushings on both sides are leaking oil. I haven't removed the end caps yet to see how bad the wear is or checked the equalizer bar play. I've had the dozer a year but haven't ran it much at all until the past few weeks. The inspection report I got with the dozer showed all undercarriage parts at around 10% so we knew it needed work. My question is if we decided to do a partial undercarriage for now would it be best to do all the rollers or do the chains, pads,and sprockets first? (parts cost is roughly the same for roller group vs. track group) If we decide to to one or the other would the old parts negatively affect the new parts? From what I can tell all the rollers are still rolling smooth but are worn down. The chains are really worn. The pads could be reused but I'd rather order the track group already assembled to save time and labor. Which ever route we go we'll definitely do the pivot shaft bushings and the equalizer bar bushings. This is a ranch machine that isn't used very much at all. Dozer is in really good shape other than the undercarriage. Machine has 7,1XX hours and has a CAT heavy duty undercarriage which I'm guessing is the original. I'll try to attach some pics tonight.
With over 7k hours on original undercarriage someone got their money's worth from it. If the pivot shaft seals are leaking then the track frames have to come off to replace the bushes 6A & 6B.. Why not call your Cat dealer and ask for a PSSR to visit you and carry out a complete undercarriage inspection & measurement. It’s a free service, at least it was the last time I had one done. Give them the impression that you are planning on buying the undercarriage parts from them. When you get the report you will have a much better idea of the condition of the whole system.
FWIW - Our PSR comes a couple of times a year and measures all our UC's at no charge. Recently they put together a soft "rebuild" for our 321DL. Take all of this with a grain of salt as we spend $1K's a month in parts and pretty much buy only Cat iron, however we are a small outfit.
If you're going with track groups it's probably best to replace the rollers as well. With 7,000+ hours it probably won't be long before they start locking up or loosing oil and they will damage the new track chains. We usually replace the idlers if the flanges are uneven as well. You won't get 7,000 hours out of aftermarket UC parts but it's hard not to get them when you compare the price. It would be best to reseal the track adjusters while the bottom is being replaced. It's not a good feeling to have everything back together and either the tracks won't adjust or leak off.
Pivot shaft and equalizer bar should be your first consideration. The pivot shaft might just have worn bushings and a buggered seal. Most of the time when I have looked at them though, the bushing has been worn to the point of the bore needing a weld and machining. Same goes for the equalizer bar as one that is worn usually means the other one is also, Since you have to remove the track frames for the pivot shafts, you will never have an easier time to measure the undercarriage and start making money decisions based on facts.
Snapped a few pics today. They aren't very good but will give an idea of what I'm looking at.
What is gouging the links under the pin bosses? Sprocket segments aren't completely shot yet but pretty worn. Don't think bushing condition matters with the shape the rails are in. They are shot! Idler might be OK but getting Cat to measure would be a good idea. It looks expensive.
You've seen enough on here to know the answer. Wornout rollers along with worn rails. Those segments are done. The cannons are sticking out so far I imagine there's irreversible damage being done to the track frames. 10% might have been generous.
The rails are beyond shot. The segments need to be replaced but they aren't pointed yet. However I've seen sprockets/segments that when new the tips are kind of angled toward the pocket and the pockets are closer together and have seen other ones where the pockets are further apart and the tips have a flat spot across the top 1/2" or more. The ones with the flat tops I'm guessing wouldn't wear to breaking tips like the angled ones. I'm just glad I don't have replace it.
10% remaining.? That’s a joke. Those photos show a system worn to 125% (wear limit is 100% BTW) or maybe a bit more. Definitely got their money’s worth out of that one. With the undercarriage system in that state the PSSR will be licking his lips working up the quotation for parts alone. However as @John C. already mentioned top priority right now should the pivot shafts and the E-Bar. You have to get them sorted before moving on to the rest of the undercarriage otherwise you are throwing good money after bad. Being honest it really all needs to be sorted at the same time but I don’t know what you have available in the way of a budget.
The bottom rollers are gouging the pin bosses. The cannons are at max length now and I haven't adjusted the tracks since I've had the dozer. I agree on the sprockets and I figure they've been replaced at some point. I wish I would have saved the inspection report from when I bought the dozer. It was done by the CAT dealer that sold the machine on consignment, but they took the ad down as soon as I told them I'd take this rig. It was definitely no surprise that it needed a UC when I bought it but I was surprised at the condition. It's in the budget to replace everything all at once but I'd rather do one or the other since not using it much. I appreciate a blunt answer rather than beating around the bush for sure. The pivot bushings is what kinda got me down. I didn't realize they were leaking until I added oil a few days back. Honestly I just wasn'taware of an issue like that. The rest of the rig seems tight and well maintained for it's age. Guess we'll plan on a complete rebuild. The quote I got without pivot shaft bushings or equilzer bar was around $20k for complete ITR UC done by a shop fairly close to me. I can buy all the parts for around $17k and do the job myself. Believe it or not I looked at a few with worse UC's but those dozers were in overall poor condition. This one is surprisingly clean overall for the UC to be in this condition. I bought it so I'll still be in the money with a UC replacement. I'll get a few more pics tonight.
If you have the lifting gear to remove the track frames then pivot shaft bushing replacement (provided it doesn’t need bore refurb/machining) shouldn’t prove too difficult. Might be an idea to price a Reman E-Bar as worst case scenario. Also if you have the tooling the $3k you would save by doing the U/C yourself could be put to use for the refurb of the pivot shafts and E-Bar. Any way you slice it there is a load of work in your future.
I neglected to mention that if you pull the track frames off to do the pivot shaft bushings then it will make replacing the track rollers & idlers a doddle because you can turn the frames upside down to do it. It will also make it easy to pull the cannons and reseal the track tensioners at the same time. Win, win.
Kind of my line of thinking also. The only real concern I have with removing the track frames is getting the equalizer bar pins out. They aren't terribly expensive so worst case I could cut them out. The pins are shiny with no corrosion showing so may be fairly easy to remove. I've got a long time friend who has a mobile heavy equipment business. I've been reluctant to call him on this since he's always so busy but I know he'd come out for me if there was something I couldn't handle. I may shoot him a mssg today.
took these this morning. There's a sticky in the cab that says 1/7/13 trans, finals, & hydro 5700hrs. Rig has 7,1XX hours so only 1,400 hours in the last 13.5 years. Wish I knew more history on it but seller didn't want to deal with anyone so sold it through a CAT dealer. Only records they had were for an A/C service.
Nothing to stop you taking the weight off the E-Bar using the blade then block up the front of the tractor. Go underneath with a big hammer and give the pins a stiff talking to. Who knows, they might just move.?
Block the frame and a 16 pound sledgehammer and a b&o from the top works well
I would suggest at least getting your PSR to quote the UC parts+labor and just parts for a comparison. Bought a set of ITR rails for our 321DL track hoe and I am not pleased with them. Less than 2K hours and the master links are shot. Will not buy another set.
The one place I worked at we'd get another year out of those rails, that is if they would stay on.
I like to get my money's worth out of things, but dozer undercarriage is the absolute last place that should ever be pushed. The juice is absolutely never worth the squeeze.
I put ITR on the 210C a few years ago. 2200 hours on it, and it's in about the same condition the original was at 4000. For what I paid, I said if it lasted 2/3 as long, I would be satisfied. I think it's going to, but am definitely surprised how fast the first 50% wore away. The second 50% always seems to wear away in 25% of the time it took the first on an excavator, in my experience. It seems to have slowed down, which is normal, but it's already to the washboard effect when walking, that usually only starts when the rails are past 25% on an excavator.
I've run many dozers all sizes that I had to fight to keep the tracks from coming off. Even a D375 Komatsu, few times had to run and get the D5 to help put em back on, and no helpers involved.
You can grab the pad and shake the master links by hand. That's how much they've worn in less than 2K hours. I might've got a bad batch with poor metal - who knows. These went on our "spare" machine so it doesn't get the hours in a year the other one does. By the time this started to show it was well past the purchase date. What I do know is I won't buy another set.
I have ITR chains on a Komatsu D65 EX-12 that I feel are doing pretty good. I think they have approx 2500 hrs on them and they show very minimal wear so far. IDK maybe I just got lucky and got a good set....
Or I got the dud.
The extension of the front idler tells me that it is hitting the stop blocks inside the track frame. Basically you probably can't adjust the tracks much is any tighter. The roller flanges hitting the track pin bosses says you are over 120% worn on the rails and rollers as a set. The sharp teeth on the sprockets also says the bushings in the chains are nearly if not fully worn through. Those are just my opinions based on my experience of appraising heavy equipment which includes measuring undercarriages. The Cat dealer is required to train product support people on measuring undercarriage and providing quotes for repair for free by Caterpillar. I would suggest pretty strongly in having that done so you have facts to base your decision on how you want to spend your money. The issue of aftermarket undercarriage wear is a little more complicated if for no other reason than a high drive undercarriage has an extra idler and a longer track chain than an oval tracked machine. The high track also has fewer sprocket teeth directly bearing on fewer bushings to move the machine than an oval track machine that wraps the chain almost 180 degrees around the sprocket. There are problems at times even with Cat branded replacement components. The likely hood of problems happening with aftermarket components is much higher. I have videos explaining each type of undercarriage for dozers at the links below:
Or, you have exceptional operators that make the chains last.
I've decided I'll look for a good used undercarriage for a few months and if nothing comes along I'll just buy everything new. I've got a few projects I'd like to get done but they can wait. If a an ITR UC is good for 2,000 hrs that would probably be 20 yrs of use on the ranch. It's really just an expense toy for me to mess with. I may take on some outside jobs once I retire in 3-5 yrs but for now it'll just see light use. I really appreciate all the comments, you guys are a wealth of knowledge. From the little I've ran this dozer it tracks perfectly straight (I've walked it a long way) and the only track issue I notice is the FTC can be finicky at times. I definitely don't want to run it until it causes bigger issues or runs a track off in a brush pile or creek though.
It mainly has only one operator. He is good but I don't think I would go as far as using the word exceptional. This machine spends most of it's time in low abrasive soil building terraces. Basically short pushes with alot slight turns as it moves over for the next push. I would think the large amount of turning would increase the track wear some?? IDK.
The material the machine is working in is the biggest factor in UC wear in my experience. Of course hard rock, mining and demo are their own animal, I am talking about construction/excavating type work.
There are a few other aftermarket undercarriage brands you could consider as well. Berco, DCF/Trek, ITM and I'm sure a couple more. I'm not sure if there is Cat classic or not.
I've found allot of good used UC's for D6R and N's but nothing for one my size yet. Found really nice complete System 1 UC for a D6N for $5k. Maybe something will come along.
That makes two duds. I had a set of ITR rails that were hand loose in 100 hours.
There is a reason it was for sale for $5k. They wanted it gone.
Probably so. I've been looking on FB Marketplace today and it's crazy the parts people have in their yard or pasture. I can't even imagine how they came up with the stuff. Reason I looked on marketplace is I looked for a Ranchworx pasture aerator for several years with no luck. A new one was $25k and I had finally decided to order one. The wife told me to try and ISO on marketplace and a guy from Arkansas mssgd me the next day. He had a used one for $6k. A little dealing and he brought it to me for the same price. Figured it would be worth a look for a UC since I'm in no hurry.
”Nice” and “SystemOne” in the same sentence is an oxymoron.
It completely depends on the application. If you're running System One in mining or hard rock applications on a large machine you'll be very unhappy with it. If you have a first or second gen S1 undercarriage you'll likely be unhappy with it unless you never get on a rock or a slope. Running a third gen S1 undercarriage on a D6 and smaller machine in a grading and site work application we consistently get 50 percent more life compared to the standard SALT or what I believe Cat now calls "heavy duty". This includes running 3rd gear reverse on S1 vs 2nd gear reverse with SALT and grading anything from flat to 2/1 side slopes. The sites are a mix of dirt, rock, sand, gravel, sub base, and tree clearing. With System One in the above setting we do no work on the undercarriage other than re grouser the pads before chain replacement. With standard SALT, in addition to re grousering, we replace the sprocket segments once and most bottom rollers once before replacing the chains. I would be very hesitant to buy a System One undercarriage second hand...
The likely reason a system one track is available used is because there are some bad seals. Lots of complete track sets were replaced under warranty for that.
If you want the identical tracks to what is on it right now search for Track Groups (you'll need 2) of Part Number 108-2622 which was fitted ex-factory and is still a good Part Number today.
And if they were replaced under warranty they should have gone for scrap, or still be in the dealer’s warranty store. Just sayin’
I am definitely wanting a standard heavy duty UC. I've got a friend that owns a dozer repair service coming out next Monday to look and give me a quote.
I’m a cowboy owner that likes to squeeze every last bit out of an undercarriage without harming the rest of the tractor.Thats the key ‘without harming the rest of the tractor’. In my opinion,there’s no need for a professional track inspection. Putting a new set of segments on would pull that cannon in by a negligible amount,but you can’t hide from the fact that the pin bosses are hitting the roller flanges and causing untold damage to other track frame areas such as structural cracks,cannon damage,bolts shearing very soon and possibly shaking expensive power train parts to bits. As others have said,time to pull both frames and sort the eq bar out and pivot shaft bearings. After that,take it from there. In my experience,no second hand undercarriages available in the UK are any good.Perhaps you have a greater choice on your side of the pond.
Nicky’s 100% right. Taken together both the fixed and the moving parts of the undercarriage form a system. Apart from specific circumstances, and this definitely isn’t one of them, you can’t do “bits & bobs” to it without adversely affecting the rest of the system. It’s time you bit the bullet and let the tools start flying. However IMHO at this point it is still worth having the undercarriage professionally inspected just in case they find something you missed. This could be anything from a crack in a track frame to a track guiding guard (have you even considered them?) that is worn out and needs replacing.
I've studied the CAT UC diagram pages and do believe I've found everything I'll need. I have decided to call our Cat dealer and get a quote on an UC. The only part I see online that's substantially out of line from aftermarket is the track groups. Might get a better deal on a complete setup from a dealer than the online parts pricing. I'll try a few different places next week.
Rather than ask for a quote (which puts the onus on you to include everything) ask for the PSSR (Parts & Service Sales Rep) to come to the machine and do the inspection. He will make the quote up for you on the basis of said inspection. I think it might work out better that way.
X2 - It will work out better for you for your PSR to come out and perform an inspection and work up a quote. Your PSR can also tell you of any current specials on undercarriage parts or specials coming up. Not uncommon to see the dealer run 10-25% off specials. Not steel but same concept. I'll buy new rubber tracks for our 279D's when our dealer runs a special where we get the sprocket segments for "free". Another benefit of going Cat is you may qualify for a Cat Card which is basically interest free money. For example you can get a $50K credit line at 24 months interest free. It's a no brainer for expensive parts and service.
You boys get treated far better by Cat dealers than us. We only have Finnings UK
I got the first quote I sent in for back today. Just under $16k for all new DCF or ITR parts, this includes hardware. I'll call Cat tomorrow maybe. I've looked into the CAT card and 36 months no interest sounds tempting. It won't hurt to call them. What causes this weather pattern on the back edge of pads?
The Cat Card is a Cat Financial thing. Do ya'll have Cat Financial across the pond? All of my dealings with Cat Financial over the last 22 years have been positive - even during 2008/2009..
Not sure what would cause that. We always wear the grouser out way before the front or back edge of the pad.
I don't know what you need, but I have 2 new track chains: 255-4789h CAT links, 43 link chains. I was sold the wrong ones and have these sitting around.
You didn't send them back? Those appear to be for a 973C track loader.
973 Track Loader 86G 973C Track Loader 3RZ 973C Track Loader BCP 973C Track Loader LDX Not sure if this is a comprehensive list or even an accurate one. I purchased the undercarriage parts, then didn't install them for 3 years. It was too late to return them I assumed.
LGP wide pads with excessive wear on pins/bushes. The track has been snaking leading to wear on the trailing edges of the track shoes. The question surfaces at this point what type of ground the machine will be primarily working on. If it is likely to be soft then staying with the 22" wide LGP pads might be the best way to go. If on the other hand the ground is likely to be mostly hard then you should really be looking at narrower track shoes. Did you include the items circled in the illustration below.?
Unfortunately they won't fit. Wrong pitch.
I did plan on replacing those parts Nige. They aren't included in the UC quote I recieved though. Dozer is an XL with 24" pads. I planned on replacing them with 22" pads but I'm not opposed to 20" pads if needed. My place is mostly sandy loam or blackland with little to no rock. I would like to clean out a few cattle ponds and they'll be pretty muddy. I'd most likely dig them with an excavator first. this pic shows the track stretch. The adjusters are at the max length. I have not added grease and they haven't moved while using the dozer.
That is surprising. The only shoe width options I can see for an AGG-prefix machine are either 20" or 22". Maybe that undercarriage is not original, or maybe the tractor has had wider shoes installed at some point. Take a look at the side of any track link right below the track shoe. You may have to wire-brush to reveal it. There should be "Cat" + a Part Number at that location. What number is it.? EDIT: scratch that. I found 108-0947 on one photo. That confirms the Link Groups are 108-0955 Heavy-Duty Sealed and Lubricated.
I honestly have no way of knowing if it's original or not. Being a CAT brand and so worn I figured it might be possible that it was. I don't like the 24" pads. 20" or 22" would be better. I did call the local Cat dealer and got the # for the PSSR rep. I'll give him a call later today. They seemed happy when I complete UC so it must be a big sale for them.
The general rule of thumb is to always use the narrowest possible track shoe consistent with adequate flotation. Talk to the PSSR about shoe width options and show him the terrain that you plan to operate in when he visits.
That is a good looking machine! Only thing I hate about those models are the T latches. Have them on my 953C and they break too easily. According to Cat the latches have been discontinued. No replacement shown on SIS - contact dealer.
Skinniest pads I have seen in awhile.
Thanks! I really like it and even though it has it's issues overall it's a really clean and straight older dozer. The cab was pretty bad and smelled like mice something terrible when I got it. I got it cleaned up like new fairly easy. I'd say the smell in the cab and the UC was reason for price. The smell more so than the UC. When I found it I was looking for a beater but came across this one for a good price. I don't like the T latches either. The one for the battery disconnect swith is broken and if I don't find one I know that door will get torn off by a tree limb sooner or later. Another thing I dislike is cleaning the in cab pressurizer filters. Too much stuff to take loose for such an easy job.
Why??????
Those miserable $##4)8--;'""_&-;;""$_&--ing things. I bent the **** out of both my engine shields at least three times before I learned you have to lock the ****** so they don't open up. The blade cylinder makes a mess of it if it opens when it's not supposed to.
Cut the pads with a torch to the size you want. You don't use it much so save the money.
Using the old pads is definitely a thought. It would save around $3,700. I found a set of brand new 30" LGP pads for $2k. I could have them cut on the plas table for not much also.
Don't bother. They're farked.
I said thin as in thin.
Are they OEM or aftermarket.? Cutting them down to 22” or 20” would certainly be an option if you have the resources to do so economically.
You always make valid points Nige
I define diplomacy as telling someone to go to Hell in such a way that he looks forward to making the trip.
Good grief. As someone that runs only LGP dozers, this makes me sad.
When you need LGP they're worth whatever they cost. When you don't they can be an expensive headache.
I called the Cat PSR for a quote today. He said they have 30% off general duty and 25% off heavy duty UCs right now. That and the Cat financial 0% for 36 months might work. Guess we'll see. He didn't say anything about coming out but he was on board with you guys when I sent him pics.
Damn. Thats a good deal. Too bad I don’t need an UC coming up at the end of the year for a write off.
I don't think it would be that cheap to have pads cut narrower. You probably also want to cut a bit more angle on the ends of the single grousers fir easier turning. I think they'd have to be cut individually. I suppose you could set up a jig on a plasma table but you'd still have move them individually.
Quite possibly,I’ve never enquired to be honest. I should add that the majority of my dealings with Finnings parts etc over 35 years have been very good.The parts staff were allways excellent and parts back up was second to none. However,with the advent of all these parts apps and centralisation of their networks,is all gone down hill. I suppose that’s progress.
JS430. Another reason for your track pad flights being worn is that it’s been working in sand and gravel. Do not reuse those pads.
Also be aware with the price from your non oem supplier who quoted $16k for DCR or ITR……They may very well be manufactured by the same company,but my experience is that the ITR is much better.
As for grouser width,Nige is correct about using the narrowest pads to do the job. I have used 20” pads on my D5H LGP when 36” are generally used. I’ve also ran 22” pads on my D8H/K tractors aswell as 26” pads. I have to say 24” pads on D8’s towing scraper boxes is a good size. As for D8 and D9 hi drive tractors,allways go for narrow pads
Another note for you with the D5 genuine Cat undercarriage is that the difference wth h/d and general duty is the pin is heavier and longer.This needs to be taken into consideration when deciding if the h/d chains will clobber your track guides that would be designed for a general duty application. You can destroy your brand new h/d chains in seconds that way.
One more point to consider with Cat h/d,the rails will be thicker,so more running before the roller flanges hit the pin bosses. However…. the actual bush that runs on the segment is the same part number as a general duty bush simply meaning that you throw more of your rail (and money) into the scrap bin unless you think it’s economically viable to have your rails re pinned and bushed at some point. This most definitely isn’t an option in the UK anymore
In my experience,Cat segments are far too hard for their own bush. I often used cheap ITR segments on Cat chains and throw them away once they would be 50% worn. This would allow more life out of the bush at the cost of cheap segments. Running hard Cat segments down to 80/100% worn is false economy as a work segment wipes the arse clean off a Cat bush.
No it’s not progress IMO. I hate the new SIS platform.
The pads have the scalloped wear pattern on the back edge but are probably 1/4" thick in the middle. The high edges are probably close to 1" tall. I won't be reusing any of this UC. The zcat PSR rep had a few questions this afternoon. Hopefully I'll get his bid today. On a positive note my O&M manual should be here today.
Second quote came back today for just under $19k. This was for all ITR parts. From what I gather there's no difference in ITR vs DCF other than availability. Didn't hear back from Cat so probably be Monday.
Cat dealer never usually in a hurry to get prices over to potential buyers first some reason
Mine does **** I gotta be careful about asking about a new machine because they’ll drop one off.
I think DCF is generally less than ITR but the price can differ from different dealers. I bought undercarriage from the dealer with the lowest overall cost. I could have saved a little bit buying different components (exactly the same) from different dealers but it wasn't worth the hassle to save a few hundred bucks.
They obviously value you as a customer. I’m only a small outfit,so can understand reps not wanting to get on with my enquiries,but I know companies that have a couple of hundred cat items and they suffer similar issues on occasion. It’s a strange thing definitely compounded by the fact we only have one single dealer in the entire country.
Oh for the days of H Leverton & Co, Bowmaker, and Caledonian Tractor. Add McCormick to that list if you were in Ireland. A cousin of mine did his apprenticeship with Bowmaker.
Oh we are a small outfit with just a handful of machines. However they do take care of us and I think there was one time over 20+ years I sent a demo back, all the rest I bought. Probably the reason they are so eager to send one out.
I removed one of the pivot shaft covers today since I knew the guy giving me a bid tomorrow would ask. The outside bushing didn't appear to have much slack but I wasn't sure what to expect. Would you expect the inside or outside to have more slack, or would they wear equally? On a good note everything came apart easy. Looked like it had never been apart. I probably should have checked with a feeler gauge but they've got to come off so didn't bother.
This reminds me of the large industrial supplier I worked at. Their new policy was they wanted all their customers to have accounts and have the items delivered right to them. They didn't want walk in customers. People could walk in but they couldn't just pick up the items they wanted. They had to place the order and come back in a couple hours to pick it up. Absolutely ridiculous! They were too stupid to realize how many millions they were losing by not selling to smaller customers/ walk ins. A competitor's main branch not too far away from the office I worked at always had a line up of people 8 to 10 deep just walking in to get their supplies right away when they needed them. Every branch of that supplier also gave free donuts and coffee to the walk in customers. I'm sure their sales increased with the new policies the company I worked for took.
You are only looking at one side but it looks to me like all you need is a bushing and seal for the track frame. The wear on the axle is the other issue to be concerned with.
If the pivot shaft seal(s) are leaking then the most likely bush to be appreciably worn is the inside one rather than the outside one that you see when you pull the cover off. That said the outside bush looks to be in pretty reasonable condition from the photo, which bodes reasonably well for the condition of the inside one. You may be lucky and find it is only the seal that is deteriorated. In that case two bushes and a seal would fix each side with no pivot shaft refurb/replacement required.
You still haven't seen the seal area on the nor where the track frame bushings ride on the shaft. You also don't know if the pivot shaft is straight. Lots more work to do.
Forgot to ask before. Was the oil in both pivot shaft cavities relatively clean or was it full of metal sparklies.?
I added oil to the pivot bushings and all looked good until the next day when I saw it had ran out the seals on both sides. The oil that ran out was clean but the dozer hadn't been moved. When I pulled the one cap there wasn't any type metal or sparkles. Just oily grease....the kind that doesn't want to wash off your hands.
Nicky is it not feasible anymore to turn pins and bushings in the UK? CM I was over at Birm. Thompson used last mon picking up a 12M blade, kept a eye out for that fancy pickup.
There have been developments in metallurgy that mean (provided the correct type of undercarriage is selected) that the whole system pretty much wears out at the same time. The OP's D5N is a classic example, it's all Donald Ducked. Maybe sprocket segments might be the exception but then again that's operational conditions-dependent. 20 years ago doing a P&B turn was really only cost-effective in 3rd World countries where labour costs were 4/5 of 9/10 of rock all. Caveat: all the comments above apply to OEM U/C, not aftermarket.
Used lot in Tarrant? The majority of the time we use the Shelby County store down I-65 although if we're north of the city we use Tarrant. Last time I was at Tarrant they had a lot of new iron sitting out front.
Hatchquip, Nige has summed up the reason of pin and bush turn economics. Just too expensive for what you get out of them. The same can be said for the replacement of new pins and bushings in old rails
Got the quote from Cat today. They came back at $26k after $8k in discounts. They do offer the 3 yr 0% on this. My finance charge would be close to $4k if I borrowed the my for 3 yrs, so they aren't far off on price. You would also get support from Cat and I wouldn't expect anything from warranty or support from a company in China selling aftermarket parts (even though they claim 2k hr on chains). Could be wrong on that though. The big benefit I see from Cat besides better parts is no payment for 6 months. In my situation that doesn't help but it could be a game changer for an independent guy with a machine down for a couple weeks or more. Looking strictly at upfront cost I'd go aftermarket, but looking long term for a rig that needs to run and make money Cat would be my choice.
IMO - use Cat Financial's money and get a better product whether you can write a check or not. If you can write a check then keep the $26K in cash in the market earning. I always take a true 0% deal on any type of financing. Why not? At least Cat is local - a chinease dealer will be like - "Who dis?".
I think in this instance,the Cat tracks at $26k are ‘only’ $10k more than the ITR tracks and are the better deal for you. It’s a no brainer if you have the money.
Cat are a better undercarriage for sure,but we’ve suffered from supply and demand here in UK perhaps more than you chaps across the various ponds.Being beheld to one dealer isn’t a good thing. I should also point out that D5/D6 undercarriages are a very common item here and probably offered at more competitive prices from Finnings,but once you move into D8/D9 size,the availability from Cat shrinks to having to order from Finnings and wait weeks,sometimes months for them to ship one in from Cat. The non oem dealers often have the odd one in stock for a big tractor that they are keen to move on.
On another note,a company I contract to,bought their complete D10 undercarriage from Finning Canada. The tractor finished a job over there and it turned out considerably cheaper getting it done there before shipping it back to the UK for us to do.
I got a quote today that was very reasonable. The quote was for Ace/ITM parts. Anyone have any experience with them? ITR parts was $1,400 more from the same supplier. Cat is most likely out for this dozer, I can't see spending double for no more than I'll use it. I'm not out to find the cheapest just the best parts for my use.
I think ITM is comparable to Trek/DCF or maybe ITR too. What price was it?
I think the ITR was $19,000 so only $7000 less.
Supplier and hour from me quoted $14,300 for ITM. He said ITR was about $1,400 more but he'd need to get exact qoute on that.
That's a more substantial difference so might be worth considering. What is the warranty? If the machine won't got a lot of use and/or work in difficult conditions maybe you don't need Cat undercarriage.
Wondering about warranty is laughable in this case. If it's truly going to get minimal use, prolly isn't going to show anything in a year, and if it does, it'll be a cheap arse roller more than likely. Even if an idler would crap out after a couple years just swap it out and roll on. Warranty only matters if you're putting enough time on to hit the hour limit, it's almost never relevant on consumables. Engines/parts, drivetrain/parts, hydraulic pumps/drives/parts, yes. Undercarriage? No.
You can still compare the warranty to Cat to get an idea how well they stand behind their undercarriage.
2,000 hr warranty. Doubt I'll ever use it though. Our working conditions are pretty easy. Loamy clay soils with little to no rock. The biggest worry we have is when working in black mud or barb wire knocking out a roller seal. We generally only put about 75-100 hrs a year on our tractor or skid steer, figure dozer will be the same or less. The last dozer we had we put about 1,000 hrs on it in 2 yrs clearing and then sold it. Reason for buying this one is fence line and pond maintenance. I'd honestly be better off to rent one a couple times a year but I like having it to fool with. Like I said earlier I might do some work for the public if I'm able to retire in a few years. Edit: the Cat rep I talked with was great. If I was working this machine for the public I'd 100% go with Cat U/C, even at the higher cost. It's nice to talk with a knowledgeable person who stands behind their product. I'm sure I'll end up buying parts from him in the future.
For the amount you'd use it it might be worth saving $10K. Is the supplier at all flexible especially if you say your probably going to go with Cat because thecgreat financing? They might sharpen their pencil.
I doubt he'd go any lower on price but you never know. I actually have another quote for $14,600 for a DCF brand UC that is a better deal because it comes with the pads bolted on. This supplier wants an extra $560 to bolt the pads on. The quote for $14,600 is several states over and I've gotten a little leary of sending big payments to people and hoping they'll do the right thing. I'd rather pay a little more to deal with someone an hour away instead of 12 hrs away.
My 50 cents to this discussion. In my planet we tend to use iron until it fall apart, but thats cause we´re poor people and not much were to make money. Aware with chains from excavators, they look same but the´re never made to resist bending and stretching all day long. After CAT we use BERCO , italian brand, has HD chains as well , they also provide the rest, rolers and idles etc. From what i could see in the pictures, that chain is a few hundred hours from bush rupture, maybe it´ll last another year Idlers can be reconditioned, very often they just need lubricant and and new seals, so as the rollers... some shops have a submerged arc welding fixture for that. thats half price. The segments u have last another few hundred hours , they are are not pointy yet. Usually i fix things as they come along, also have a farm, 200h a year tops, plus 50 to neighbours. If u plan to hire the machine, that case would be a good idea to get that thing complete in one go, as with 200h hire u can pay for the undercarriage, and u avoid a breakdown in a job. Besides the image it sends, one got to fix right now, and that is costy. Have a nice day
@Mquinista very interesting take on the subject. Sounds like we live in very different cultures. Dozer rate in our area is $200/hr for 100hp or less and $300/hr for D6 size. 80 hrs will pay for fuel and a UC. It's probably been 25-30 yrs since I've heard of anyone building up rollers or turning p&b on chains. We pretty much live in a need it now and what's easiest society when it comes to work. It's kind of shame the way we throw things away. There are still allot of small contractors running 20-25 yr old equipment but the bigger operators seem to get rid of new equipment around the 5-7 yr mark. Judging by the hrs and a few decals I've found this dozer falls into that category. I do know allot of folks that would run this UC until the chains started popping off. For me it's a pay me now pay me later deal and I've learned the easier way is pay me now....if you have the means.
Rates in my planet are 60€ Hr for farm job, cleaning and plowing , 80€ for diguing and pushing fuel @ 1,50€ liter... as i said not much room for CAT Steel. D6´s not very much runing this days. Though times this ones.
Rates I quoted were for farm/ranch work or house pads. I can only imagine what the guys doing commercial work get a hour. One of the local guys that has done dozer work for years blew the engine up in his D5 last year. He was tired of repair bills so gives a quote now and rents a dozer.
The majority of commercial work at least in my area is hard bid or negotiated lump sum, very little hourly work. GC's and owners are scared ******** of hourly work so anything not included in the bid/price is 90% of the time unit cost. Unit cost meaning per SF, SY, CY or per load. We are predominately commercial work and can make more with hard/negotiated pricing than working by the hour. The unit cost work is normally the most profitable part of the job with the majority of the work involving hauling off other trades spoils. WAY off topic just wanted to ramble a minute.
That's interesting. I don't know any big dirt contractors well enough to know how they bid jobs. I know allot of contractors do a time & materials rate with a "not to exceed" when doing electrical or mechanical work. There's allot of time I sign the time sheets at work and the contractor will have a daily rental fee for a welding machine, lift, excavator, etc.that I know they own. Majority of people I know doing mulching or dirt work for the general public are hourly. Some will work by the acre though.They've gotten high enough that it's worth owning your own equipment if you can afford to. I know these guys aren't getting rich by any means it just cost so much to own and operate equipment. Especially with fuel @ over $5.
I would add "and know what you're doing"... Whenever customers have mentioned our rates seemed high compared to a rental I've told them they're not renting our machines, they're purchasing our knowledge. Anybody can rent or buy a machine or machines and do it themselves if so inclined. And I'll happily tell them to do it if they're wanting the experience or the fun but not if they're trying to save money. I've been the guy fixing up what the owner filled, built, or graded too many times to believe it's cheaper long term for most property owners to do their own excavation or grading.
Very true, you have to know your limitations. I'm decent enough at knocking down and piling trees. I can grade good enough for a fence row but that's about it. I would add you need to be able to work on the equipment you buy also. Not sure what Cat or Deere charge to come out but our independent guys are at $150 and hour and stay busy. If you run equipment it's going to breakdown or at a very minimum be maintained properly. There's allot of cost that go along with owning equipment.
Very well said. I don't even call Cat if the machine is out of warranty.
What is the correct procedure for torquing 5/8" pad bolts. Best I can find is clean paint off chains and pads, coat bolts with SAE 30w or antisieze, torque to 150 ft#, and an additional 120* or 1/4 turn. Can I use and impact for the additional 1/4 turn? Was planning on buying track groups but everyone want around $500 to bolt the pads and 3 week lead time. Lead time is a bigger deal than the $500.
I'd paid about $300 to have the pads bolted on on a track press but that was quite awhile ago. I think it's usually 120 degrees/1/3 of a turn just make a mark with a paint stick on the pad where 2 corners would turn and make another mark two corners back and line the marks up. You can use whatever to turn the additional 1/3rd turn. Some master links turn more. There was a Cat undercarriage manual online that listed the torque turn for all the different sizes of pad bolts.
A couple of comments. 1. cleaning the paint off pads and links is the important part. Fail to do that correctly and you will never keep the hardware tight. 2. Don't use anti-seize on regular pad bolts. Throw them in a bucket of old engine oil and pull them out one at a time as you want to use them. Specified torque is 125 ± 30 lb ft plus an additional 120 degrees, which is 1/3 of a turn not 1/4. 3. Yes you can use an impact to get the 1/3 turn after torquing the hardware. Master link bolts get anti-seize on the threads, the bolt shank, and under the bolt head where it bears on the track pad. Then torque to the same specifications as above. On new tracks that are likely to have paint in the threaded holes in the master link, run a plug tap down the holes to clean the paint out in addition to removing all the paint from the faces of the crocodile links.
When TTT I like to use a sliver marker on my black impact sockets, that way, whether I’m using a ratchet or impact, I can see it turn.
Has anyone ordered parts through AMS Parts in Ohio?
Yes, I ordered a pair of idlers from them I think. No complaints.
Thanks. Tried to order a U/C from them today but my payment wouldn't take. I'll call them Monday. Had a bad experience with a big out of state purchase last year and it's got me gun shy. They seem like a good company and have been quick to get parts quotes back so far. Their prices have been fair enough also.
I think I paid over the phone. Have you been dealing with Rob?
Dealing with Traci. I haven't talked with her yet only email or text. I've been working night shifts so emails have been best. If I can't get the payment through on Monday or Tuesday I've got another supplier that's actually closer.
I can give you Rob's number if you want to try texting him. He's been pretty responsive for me.
If I can't get Traci tomorrow I'll get with you. It's nothing they've done I've just been hard to get ahold of because I work rotating shifts.
I've also bought from MWE and heard good things about ConEquip. Might be worth comparing prices
I would think a company would try just about anything to get the sale/payment for new undercarriage. Could you try to call them on your break?
I do all aftermarket undercarriage through Heavyquip in Olathe, KS. Been seamless to work with. Ron is my go-to guy.
I have delt with MWE and they were top notch.