I have a D6r with about 1500 hrs on it and have had nothing but trouble with it. The rails seem to break, I am not talking about flaking, I'm talking about breaking chunks out of them. I was wondering if anybody else was having trouble with the undercarriage on cat machines? There has been a total of about 20 links replaced on the right side and about 10 on the left side of the machine. I now wish I would have spent the extra bucks and went with the system one setup. I think I might of bought a lemon, at 252hrs the tranny shelled due to bolts that were not torqued at the factory. Any info on the undercarriage would be appreciated. BTW the machine never works out of 1st gear and has never been in third even to road it.
d6peg, would it be possible to post some photos of the undercarriage including views of link damage? It sounds like you are describing spalling of the link faces where they contact the rollers but pictures remove any misinterpretation Has the CAT dealer repaired under warranty or otherwise and provided their analysis? It can't be cost effective to keep pressing in new links if there is a question of component integrity. How about the links once replaced... surviving or are they failing again? How about undercarriage wear at this point? Often there can be other factors, impact, shoe width, ground conditions that can create undercarriage problems. From what I hear about system one its great in softer, low impact conditions but under extreme conditions the standard/conventional undercarriage is better suited.
D6R undercarrage I sold my D6R a couple years ago because I did not have a need for it and it too seem to be problems. It seems like Cat is going down hill on quality of machines. I have a D6C10K, D6D6X and never have problems with them. Then I got a D6H LGP and the problems started. I traded it for a series II D6H LGP and had problems. The D6R I had was also a LGP Dozer. I had to replace several links and track bushing in the time I had it. I replaced 5 bottom rollers and one idler in just a few hours. I had to replace the Hydr. pump, a valve in the transmission and when they were doing that they found several other things wrong with the transmission. The final on the left side always sounded bad so they removed it and found bearings that were bad (200 hours) . Being an LGP machine probably did not help but so is the D6D6X and it has over 28000 hours and I have not done that much to. I think Cat is like a lot of companies that are having problems with employees and quality control.
D6R undercarrage .D6R undercarrage
thanks for the replies, Wulf the failure is on the inside of the rails and not on the face. I do wish I had some pics but didnt take any, the dealer did take some. The links that break will break about half of the thickness off from the inside (if this makes sense). Cat has warrantied the broke links. The links that have been replaced have not broken yet, but because of the dealer doing this in the field have some dry bushings now in the new links. The salesman and the head service man both have told me that it looks like they (cat) have gotten a bad poor on some links and that is what is causing them to break. I have been arguing that I want a complete new undercarriage and they just keep saying they will continue to replace the broken links. This is all fine and dandy but they don't compensate the 1 day or 2 days of lost time. The wear of the undercarriage is excellerrated at this point looks like. The D6h that this D6r replaced had over 6000 hrs on its undercarriage and it looks like I will be lucky to get 4000 on this one. Oh, I forgot to mention that both of the back idlers was out of round when it was put on the machine so Cat replaced them as well but it still didnt take care of the link issue. The right track seems to run on the inside of all the rollers and I have had Cat out several times and they can't find any thing wrong. When I picked the machine up from the dealer it had 3 hrs on it and I ran it for 3 hrs that day and I immediatly told the salesman that there was an undercarriage problem. He told me that I couldn't tell till I put at least 500 hrs on the machine. Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing the salesman, he is a super good guy, he did give me a loaner 6r for six weeks while the tranny was being rebuilt. I think his hands are tied, he can only do what the factory tells him to at this point. This is the first new dozer that I have owned as I have been running dozers for 30+ yrs and if this is what Cat calls progress I would have to say NOT. I love the dozer but this undercarriage problem is getting the better of me.
That's enough to make anybody unhappy, one doesn't expect down time like that with a new machine. Sounds like the links are to hard and flaking if Cat won't make it right with a new set of rails tell them next time you'll buy a Deere or Komatsu. You may have to go to the next level of customer service at Cat to get anything done.
Dpete, I agree about going to the next step in cust. service. All of the Cat people have never seen this or heard about it. I keep thinking I am causing this problem but I dont run this dozer any different than the D6h we had.
Are any of the rollers flat spotted?
No, at least not at last check about 50 hrs ago.
I have an 03 cat D4G with 2500 hrs on it and Friday I broke a pin in half on the rail and ordered a new rail for $1,500 with freight. It is a lubricated rail, not a dry one. Cat wanted $2,100 for one. I pulled all the pads off today and noticed three other ones were leaking oil, and one other broken pin. It would have cost me $500 to just repair the broken link, I am glad I ordered the new rail now. The bushings only have about 30% wear. The machine is mostly in dirt, not hardly any rock. Thought they should last longer then 2500 hrs though.
Woodstock.... most manufacturers have a pro-rata warranty against leakage or breakage as in approved and normal applications the SALT seals shouldn't leak. Did you talk to your dealer about the problem as I'm sure they don't want to lose your business to an after-market supplier?
I would estimate the hours of downtime to replace all those links multiply it by your hourly rate and get with the Cat rep in your area and insist on a new set of rails, that you have spent too much time and $$$ already fooling around replacing links. When those were heat treated they must have gotten them to hard. Don't let them walk on you just because they are Cat. good luck
DPete, I have talked to the Cat rep and he measured everything and said everything was lined up the way it is supposed to be and that the undercarriage was wearing normally, but he does not understand that it is not uncommon for us to get at least 6000 hrs on a set rails, pins and bushings. As it stands right now the salesman is my best source, he has emailed CAT, but I have not heard back from him lately. I called him a few weeks ago with the chain of command and he said it started with him. Good for us is that we have a good warranty (3 yrs or 3600 hrs). The outside service manager doesn't know what to do about the dry links until he hears something back from the factory. I told them at the dealership that every squeak that I hear coming from the undercarriage that they would get a call from me.
Well it sounds to me as though your dealer is supporting you and doing as much as they can. Better to work with them and see what they can do for you rather than to fall out and threaten to take your business elsewhere. If you already have a few undercarriage inspections they should project how long the undercarriage would last if the inherent material failure had not appeared. If external bushing wear and link height are indicating that 6000 hrs is realistic then I would prepare my case to have that life guaranteed bythe manufacturer. Whatever life you don't achieve then CAT should be covering that portion on a prorated basis. If inspections indicate more than 6000 is achievable then maybe your outlay will be less.
If you pay top dollar you should get top quality and that's not happening. 30 links is ridiculous, nuff said
High Drive money pits. I could work on H/Drive tractors every day in the year, if I wanted to???? but it gets dull after a time,on a wide-spread (LGP) tractor Salt tracks fail fast,if you can stand the sweaking, dry link track lasts nearly the same,the cracking bits off the inside of the track rail is obviously a hardness defect, but it is worth doing a few checks of your own , after all its your investment. Firstly I would be checking that the spacer shim's are in both mounting points on the front idlers, then with somebody to give you a hand, measure the distance between the front and rear idlers from left to right side,I do have all the spec's if you need to know, does the drive rim (sproket) run off line, (is it marking the inside of the links) the equalizer beams are a nightmare for failing, just check it has all the bits in the right places, finaly if another link fails I would demand new track chains are fitted, this would be demanded in the first instance in the U.K. the level of patching up to your track chains is laughable we would call this a "Balls up" Oh yes I nearly forgot, How come it took the Dealer 6 weeks to sort your transmission, I have removed the transmission from a D6R LGP repaired it then popped it back on a Low loader to be sent back to a site in 6 hours???? "Plant Fitters Love High-Drives Forever" tctractors
tc, Thanks for the help and yes I would like to have those specs. This 6R is a standard track and not the XL. I have not thought of measuring from side to side yet or the equalizer beams. YES, The sproket (segments) do run off line, that is how I noticed that something was wrong only 3 hrs after I picked the machine up. It had all of the paint wore off of the outside edge of the segments and all of the paint on the inside of the rails. After 1500 hrs the right inside rail on the right side of the machine is wore more than the left inside rail (if this makes sense). I first noticed breakage at 250 hrs and Cat has been out 3 different times to fix broke rails and I agree if it happens again a lawyer will probally get involved. The first time they fixed the broke links I had 15 links on the right side and 4 on the left side and they shiped both set of tracks to another dealer for repair and the machine was down for at least 2 weeks. The last two times the fixed the broke links in the field. If this was just a flaking issue it probally would not bother me as I have seem rails do this in the past but these rails actually have 1/2 inch by 2" chunks broke out of them. The issue of the tranny being down is I was told they did not have a housing in inventory and that they had to build one (for whatever that is worth). The bolts that were not tourqed were a ring of bolts that hold a bearing in place and it turned the bearing loose which ate up the housing. That has not bothered me though near as bad as the links issue. The salesman loaned me another machine. I was told this was a 110 hr job as they had to go completly thru the whole tranny system to get all the metal shavings that the housing deposited everywhere. So far according to S.O.S. the tranny problem has been resolved.
Was it by any chance the bolts that hold the bevelgear in place on the outputaxle? had that happen no a fairly new 6 here too but luckily it hadn't done any damage before 2 of the nuts were found in the bottom screen.
If the things are out of line i would do more checking.With 3 hours and seening a problem with the sprockets being out of line,then might not hurt to check this out.Where the roller frame mounts to the dead axile,might have it spaced wrong then that would cause the roller frame to be off. Have you checked the seals,bearing,in the roller frame where they mount for leaks.They have bushing in there and i had my D6H leak with 600 hour and tore it down and the axile was worned bad enough that they replaced the dead axile.Someplace new to check if they haven't checked that area out much. I agree the flaking thing is the hardest problem.I have seen it on the trunion bearing where the dozer blade mounted.Chipping and flaking.Keep us posted.I always like to hear what you find. :usa
Question for you.The shims under the idlers where they mount.If you put new roller and idlers on the same time should you have the shims in then then. I have a D6H and D6R the H had shims when i got it.As the undercarriage worn it got harder riding.Took out the shims and smoothed things out.Put new undercarriage rollers.idlers, except rails.Didn't put shims in,i told cat mechanic,needed shims.He disagreed,i said new it came with them.There are some with smaller and bigger idlers in the older ones.I now have the bigger idlers,not sure if they got switched over the change in rail and so fore.My H might have had the big idlers to start with,can't remember.I bought it new. I guess if you have a D6H with the big idlers and new rollers do you need the shims.Shims in, mean more pressure on idler and out more weight or pressure on rollers seems like.Right or wrong? Did D6R have shims to start with.The mounts are different for the idlers on the H and the R.Hope you can answer some of the questions!:usa
Constructo, Have not checked the spacing dead axle about the shims but I have checked for leaks and so forth no oil any where and the level stays full every time I check it (250hrs). Like you we had to replace a dead axle on our old D6h. And I will keep you posted as we do some checking. It is probably something simple that has not been checked yet. It might take an undercarriage specialist and not just the general sevice tech.
Knackerd Tracks d6peg Is the chunk that gets chewed out of your track chain in the tooth point area as the sprocket rotates, I have checked all the spec's on the undercart, the only adjustable points I could see is the top carrier roller shaft, this is to be set from the C,line of the spocket to the C,line of the front idler, to put the top roller central between the two items, the other adjustment ( if desired only) is the shim adjustment to the front idlers, this is to smooth out blade operation by removing the nodding dog effect, the shim's are used to set the idler at the same running hight as the bottom rollers giving more of a flat area to work from, (I hope this reads like I mean) I have found a shim in the one side of an idler but not in the other, putting the wheel on the scunt a good bit , it is also posible to fit the segments back to front, I am thinking of odd /daft stuff here as it must be something a mile out to cause this damage, On the repaired track thing leaving you with dry links CAT are realy taking the Pi## it says in there Lit, serious damage will occur if the pins are run with no oil, there is also the safety aspect to consider if you are working on a slope/incline of even moderate pitch and the chain brakes ??????. Any thoughts of Legal action is to be avoided , CAT has bigger guns, and these things only make you bitter???? I would get the salesman and a Product Support person out to sort this situation , I honestly thought your tractor was an LGP, (its about all you see in the U.K,) not the short frame tractor with 6 rollers, if you are running dry links CAT should give you new chains, blowing it on tctractors
Thanks for all the help tc. The chunks that are breaking starts where the pin goes thru the rail all the way back to nearly the next pin. It acually breaks out about half of the face (what hits the rollers) all the way up on the inside. I talked to the salesman and the outside service manager today and the salesman sent another email to Cat. I agree about the legal battle I dont know why I put the bit in one of the previous post about the lawyer (just ranting I guess). It just seems to me everybody throws the lawyer thing out there anymore and I just got caught up in it. I think that the dealer can get this problem straightened out. They are a good group of guys . Nearly all of the D6r's that I have seen have the carrier roller but mine does not. I thought that might be the problem but I have done some checking with some other machines like ours and they are not having the same problem. The issue about the dry pins now is that sometimes the pins squeak and get hot and other times they do not. I have got them marked and keeping tabs on them at this time. I kinda wish the rails would just go ahead and break all the way and maybe I would get a whole new set of rails.
I talked to Holt Cat today about the seals on the pins and bushings on my D4G and told them I had some leaking oil and broke two pins in half. He told me that Cat says the seals should only last about four years. I asked him about how many hours, soil conditions, ect. He says Cat doesn't say anything about that just four years they should be expected to go out. I still think they should last longer than that.
My D6H didn't have the carrier rollers on it, early model,but i had it put on and wouldn't be with out them.The track don't bags down as bad,plus they don't rub the track tighter cyclinder by the idler,when tracks get wore bad. Also hated the tracks flopping like they was waving at you when you truned.So are you trying to do a lot of counter rotating with you machine? I thought all the D6R had the carrier rollers,or is it an option and you didn't think you needed them? I would consider putting them on if it was me.Might help your problem,couldn't hurt i wouldn't think at this stage.:beatsme :usa
Well I don't understand that logic Woodstock... are they suggesting that the SALT seals are perishable? I would argue that under norma l conditions the SALT seals should always outlast the wear of the link components i.e. until the pin and bushings are ready for the option of turning or replacing.
d6peg... I've quoted my earlier point about projected life. I'm really surprised that the dealer repaired so many links under warranty and you ended up with dry SALT joints. This is a very clumsy repair,its unacceptable and it makes me wonder whether its being claimed to CAT as it could be the dealers responsibility if they didn't handle the situation and fix it properly. Do you have inspection showing current bushing wear and link height % and projected life and current hours as I think its important at this point. By the way... the best way to check for dry joints/hot pins is to run the machine hard for a few hours and immediately use an infrared heat gun (most field techs carry these now but it may set you back a hundred bucks or more if you do it yourself) at the pin ends and identify temperature differences.
Wulf, your post is Bang On, I myself use a hand held heat/temp gun (Snap-on do a good range) to measure the pin temp, or you can use the back of your hand with caution , ( the back of your hand heals faster) it sounds like the track is slaming down on those front idlers knocking great lumps out?????, it is not often that I see H/drives without top carrier rollers, if you can have these fitted it will ease some of the strain on your track groups, the item that is going to get the most damage is the sprocket segments,as the track stretches in an un-even pitch, the dry links wearing faster than the good section, lets hope this snag is soon sorted to a happy end. tctractors
I agree with the carrier roller taking out some slap and I think it is an option with the standard track ours just didnt have it when we bought it. I know that several years ago it was over $2000 a side, no telling what it would cost now. Of course most of the D6r's are the XL version and the carrier roller is standard with these machines, but our old 6H didnt have carrier rollers either. We bought that machine with an 85% undercarriage and I put another 6000 hrs on it, now granted when we sold the machine (22000 hrs) the undercarriage had about 500 hrs left before the tracks would start falling off. Wulf, I dont have a current report on the undercarriage as I also think it would be important at this time, but the problem that I have run into is that nearly everybody in our area are in the oilfield and they dont get but about 4000 hrs on their uncarriages, so in return they are comparing all uncarriages to what the oilfield does. At about 800 hrs they took a report and said the wear was right on. I will keep everybody posted on what happens. I have a good friend that is a mechanic at the dealer I maybe I can get to come out sometime with his temp gun and shoot the pins just to see how many dry pins that the machine does have. I know that by using the hand method that I have 2 on the left side and 1 on the right.
Sounds like you got a: 1: Friday built machine 2. Monday built machine 3. Vacation built machine 4. Strike built machine. Keep hammering on the dealer people and the factory folks too. They won't like it, but sometimes you just have to make such a fuss they can't stand the heat. Good Luck!
D6peg I have the CAT undercarrage master volume (under-cart Bible) listing every detail going back to the 1940's, one thing it does state is dry link tracks are not ever to be fitted to H/Drive tractors, CAT has 8 main styles of link RTB,SALT & so on , 6 of these options are for H/Drives. tctractors
Link Spalling? Here is a scanned page from the CAT undercarriage handbook that was sent to me a few years ago (hope its OK to post it here copyright etc). It describes the causes of the condition (I guess it presumes that the alloy steel recipe, link forging, heat treatment, tempering or whatever is 100%) It goes on to state that the condition (as illustrated) is cosmetic unless 30% of the rail surface is affected. Your additional dilemma now is that the field repair created a separate condition where the dry links will need further attention. As I said earlier, this could now be the dealers problem not CAT's? Keep us posted on the situation, actual undercarriage inspection results (% wear and projected life) and some pics would be great
Wulf, Can you tell the actual book and the page number where you found that information at. Kinda hard to read on this little ole computer. I am going to talk to the dealer rep Monday and see if he will come out and measure the undercarriage and I would like to have it as a reference for him. I cant believe it me so long to find this forum, the wealth of knowlege to me is unbelieveable. Thanks again. I am going to suggest to the rep that he check this forum out and with the info posted here and what he knows maybe we can find a solution to this problem. Surfer Joe, I have allways said from day one that I thought this machine was built on a Monday or Friday. Now the seat is broke.:Banghead I've been thinking about the airide seat to replace it with ($1800), anybody know anything about them? Good, bad or indifferent. I dont think I want to add any new components that might cause more problems.
d6peg... sorry but I don't have the CAT publication #. I think its called the Caterpillar undercarriage handbook or something similar (maybe a CAT person here may know the number). If you PM me with an email address I can send you the original file which will be easier to read and print off.
"It had all of the paint wore off of the outside edge of the segments and all of the paint on the inside of the rails." That part sounds normal to me. If you study the suspension geometry on a high drive dozer you will notice that the equalizer bar has 3 pinned points. So, when the machine encounters uneven ground, one track frame pitches up, and one down. The equalizer bar pivots on its center pin, and the outer ends travel in an arc, and get closer to the centerline of the machine. This causes the roller frames to draw in toward the center of the machine, taking the tracks with them. The finals/sprockets are fixed to the frame, so the tracks would bear against the outside of the sprocket segments. The roller frames actually slide in and out on the dead axles.
BT, I understand what you are saying,but the thing that caught my attention was that the right side(outside) of the segments on the right side of the machine has all the paint wore off of them, in fact they look like you have taken a grinder to them. The inside of the same sprockets and the ouside and inside of the left set of sprockets dont, they still have a little bit of paint left on them after 1500hrs of use. Thanks for the input.
d6peg, D6 roller frames do not "slide" on the dead axles. They pivot only. The roller frames are secured by a shimmed cap at the dead axle, and the equalizer beam holds the front end in place. There is a lot of movement up and down, but not sideways. Remember, the roller frame pivot shaft compartment is filled with oil and sealed on both sides.
Surfer Joe, I didnt think they slid on the dead axle, but who am I to agrue. We replaced one several years ago on our old 6H and now that you mentioned it I remember the shimmed cap.
Ask your Cat Dealer about the Caterpillar Undercarriage Assurance Program
Welcome to the forum Budd. I didnt know there was such a thing as Caterpillar Undercarriage Assurance Program.
Cat Wear Assurance This program actually will warrant any premature failure of undercarriage, rollers, idlers, pads and chains for 36 months or 4000 hours. It is not discussed too often by dealers due to the difficulty in warranty administration that goes along with it and the various applications that void the warranty. Cat will pro-rate the usage on the tracks and you will be responsible for the cost....i.e. if you had 2000 hours on a set of chains and they were failing then you would be responsible for 50% of replacement cost...or at least that is how our dealership does it....yet they usually "policy" (or take care of) a portion of your obligation depending on your relationship with them and the amount of business you do with them...unfortunately it comes down to the almighty dollar. I am sorry if I missed this in an earlier post but is this a system one undercarriage or standard SALT? As far as the air ride seat...it is worth every penny. Increases the ride height of the seat and overall travel....if you are a tall person you can actually get the seat to the correct height without it riding like you are bolted to the mainframe. My first thought when I read this thread was that your roller frame on one side is toeing out.....or in....which could possibly be linked to your equalizer bar. Had a machine that had uneven wear...actually wearing on the outside of the rollers and it was due to a failure in the equalizer bar that was causing the roller frame to toe out when going forward thus pushing the chain to the outside of the roller and wearing the inside of the sprocket and chain...on the other side it was pulling the chain so that the wear was on the inside of the roller and the outside of the chain...something you might look at. As far as your transmission issues....very common for all Peoria built tractors of your era due to labor negotiations.....have been many failures of similar root cause in Ohio....dealership blamed it on strike time assembly issues. Just a couple of thoughts and questions.
I would be checking more in the dead axile area.Try measureing the equlizer bar distance form center to left ,then center to right. What size pads are you running.The xw machines have spacers for the finals to set out farther for the wider pads they use. I'm putting IM(xw) 11' 6" dozer blade on my D6R XL(24" pads)so not going wider pads.If i tryed that i would have to have i think they said a 3' spacer for the dead axile and longer housing or sapcer,for the final.The blade now is 10' 6" blade.So i had to get the spacer that goes on the trunion balls for the blade to line up(offset) for the difference of the feet wider blade. Wanted wider blade not,wider pads. I wouldn't think so ,but check finally drive distances also,just maybe someone ,put the longer final drive hosuiong (spacer) for the xw in there by mistake.Unlikly ,but never know. As big as your cat dealer is i would think they would have someone sharp enough to figure it out.Is the bill going to be on you or the dealer for the checking.My dealer has several field guys and they are young ,but they are pretty darn sharp.I have had good luck. Keep posting and keep searching theres something wrong with the right side .I would narrow it down to looking there.The other is a track issue.Got two things going on here sounds like.
Thanks for the info zx850 and welcome to the forum. It is a SALT undercarriage. I am going to try out that air ride seat when the dealer gets a machine on the lot that has one it. I am happy about the tranny issue as of now, the dealer done an excellent job getting that resolved. Don't you think that some of the problems that equipment companys nowadays are having is due to trying to keep up with demand of the industry, or is it that some people they have working for them just dont give a crap anymore, or maybe both? Well, I guess I better quit ranting or I will still my own thread.
Get your digital camera or any camera,out and get to taking pictures and documention what is being done. Little late on picture for earlier repairs,but not from now on.I know it is the holidays,but when was the last time Cat rep(tech) was there to check the machine.What's taking so long:beatsme Need more info as to what they are doing and telling you.Keep posting.Thanks:usa
Get some pictures up on here for us,this has got to be a new one,that we all need to find out about the problem and the fix!!!!!!!!!! Good idea about getting at least your sale rep to see this.In fact my Cat serviceman as a laptop computer right in his truck and if i asked him he would gladly check out this post. I might even try emailing him and asking what he thinks.Keep hamming them.:usa
constructo, I will do more checking on the dead axle and the equalizer bar. I am running 20" pads. I havent thought about the final drive on the right side being farther out from the machine than the left. Good idea. I'm sure that the bill will be on them since this has been an ongoing issue. When I talk to the rep tomorrow I will see if he still has the pics he took and maybe he will email them to me and if so I will place them here so everybody can see what I am talking about, and I have a dig. camera and will take a few of the pics about the segments wearing on the right side. I would like for you to talk to your serviceman and see if he has ever heard of anything like this.
Sorry but just got email back from my man and it said he was on vacation,until Jan. 7,2008.So can't do you any good for now.I tried :beatsme :usa
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums Budd! :drinkup
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums ZX850! :drinkup
Thanks! This seems to be great resource for real life experience
I'm sorry I forgot that Caterpillar builds their equalizer bars out of silly putty so they'll stretch when they need to. My parts books must be wrong to, cuz they sure don't show no shims under the pivot caps....... Oh well, I'm still learning!
What the heck... I knew we shouldn't have bought one of those "silly putty" tractors.:Banghead
it sound to me like this bolt thrower guy knows what he is talking about i thnk he might be right
Pushkid, Bolt Thrower might be correct and probably is. I am just a O/O and not a mechanic. But what I cant figure out, is on our 6h that we replaced the dead axle on it has a seal that is about 1/2" in diameter and if the dead axle slides in and out it would come out of the seal that is very hard to fit into the roller frame. I will do some more checking to see if the R series is maybe a little different.
Constructo, Talked to the dealer on Monday and my rep is also on vacation. I guess we will have to wait till next week to get all the measurements we need. Done some more checking about the dead axle. According to my parts manual that was given to me when I bought the machine. The dead axle has a plate cap (it has a washer and not shims between the axle and plate) with 12 bolts that hold the roller frame to the dead axle, thus not allowing it to slide in or out on the dead axle. This can be found on page 404 (108-0175 pivot bar group), of the publication sebp2984 parts manual.:Banghead
I checked my parts book and like your said it show a thrust washer that goes on before you put the plate on and bolt it down.So if for some reason they didn't install the thrust washer at the factory that could be the problem. No washer then the roller frame would set closer to the sprocket,causing grinding on the sprocket.It probably wouldn't leak,because seal on the axile would still be on the seal surface. I would make them check to see if everything is okay on the dead axile. It wouldn't be that big a job.Just pull the dozer arm lose,take the trunion ball off remove the plate and get to the thrust washer,and see if it is there.At least that would be one thing to rule out. Good luck.:usa
Thanks Constructo and I will keep you posted. Now I just have to get a chance to turn the dozer loose for a day to do some checking. I keep thinking that I can get the dealer to check it out for me since this problem is one that showed up since the machine was new. I was in some sand today and it really showed up bigtime. If I can remember I will put the camera in the pickup tomorrow and try to get some pix posted.
A missing thrust washer couldn't cause the roller frame to be out of alignment. The equalizer bar controls the location of the roller frames. It is a piece of steel (not silly putty) with precise fit pins connecting it to the main frame and roller frames. When the EQ bar is level, the roller frames are at a fixed distance from the center of the machine. When the EQ bar pivots either direction the roller frames follow it (!) Up and down and in and out. Forgive me if I led you to believe the roller frames slide in and out a large distance, I'd guess its only 1/4". The roller frames are a slave to the EQ bar. I thought was basic stuff!
If that is the case .Why do they have a thrust washer??????:beatsme :usa
There more things that it could be.Unlikely,but you never know.The taper on the axile where the bushing run ,might be machined wrong,not letting the roller frame be aligned right.Wrong length bushing. The hub where the sprockets bolts on might not be to spec(made right or for an xw machine).Wrong sprockets.The list could go on.Just things to check.Nothings written in stone.Just starting points.Your guess:drinkup is as good as mine just throwing it out there.:usa
Track Issues. Hi, D6Peg. I haven't looked at this thread earlier due to time constraints. Looking through it now, it occurs to that what you have with the sprocket/rail wear is an alignment issue. The track frame itself is not properly aligned with the sprocket, hence the wear on one side of the sprocket and the corresponding inner face of the rails. Whether it is because the whole track frame is out of 'whack' or if it is a 'toe-in/toe-out' issue is something that only observation of the ALL the wear patterns woudll tell you. How-wevver, it does sound to me as if your WHOLE track frame may be too far in, allowing the insides of the outer links to run against the outer face of the sprocket segments. Just how they would achieve this during assembly is beyond me. If this is the case, I would also expect to see corresponding wear on the insides of the outer roller flanges and the outide edges of the outer track rails. This sort of contact could also lead to the 'spalling' that you mentioned. It may also show up in increased wear to the inside of the rear idler flange and the inside faces of the inner track rails. One other thing thing that I can think of that would cause a similar wear pattern would be if you were side cutting batters with the right track low ALL the time. Similar loadings with a different root cause. You can check the track alignment by simply walking alongside and behind the machine while it is travelling slowly forward, preferably WITH somebody at the controls. Observe the contact between the links and the sprocket and the links and the rear idler flanges. You can also closely approximate this by driving the machine STRAIGHT forward for a couple of machine lengths on FLAT, LEVEL, SMOOTH, NOT ROCKY ground, stopping the machine without any reverse movement and observing the above points while parked. I note that you said that Cat 'can't' find any alignment issues. I would ask, "Do they WANT to?" Doing your own checking will help to set your own mind at rest. I'll watch here for future developments. Hope this helps.
Thanks, Constructo and Deas Plant.:notworthy I have been doing some more checking. I am the only one on the job right now so I cant do as much checking as I would like to, but every time that I park the machine on level ground the right rail is riding on the outside edge of the sprockets. There is a noticeable (you can feel it) groove on the outside edge of the spockets. The inside of the outside rail is wore more than the inside of the inside rail. Also the rail is riding on the outside of the back idler. I took some pix of the sprockets today and will try to get those posted this weekend. I hoping to hear back from the dealer soon to see what Cat says about it. I will keep everybody posted, this is getting interesting with all the possibilities.
Interestinger and interestinger.......... Hi, D6Peg. 'Interesinger and interestinger'. You say that the track rail is riding on the outiside of the rear idler. Have you checked to see if the inner face of the inside rail is hard up against the inside face of the idler flange? This, combined with the wear on the sprocket and the inside of the outer rail, would be a dead-set giveaway that something is out of whack there somewhere. You may also see wear marks on the inside face of the inside flange of the top carrier roller, if fitted. These three points, sprocket, rear idler and carrier roller, are the ones that are going to cop most of the wear if the track frame is not correctly aligned with the sprocket. Bolt Thrower's analysis of the situation with the equaliser bar is a little flawed. The equaliser bar, in CONJUNCTION with the location of the track frame on the pivot shaft controls the track alignment. As he said, the equaliser bar is a fixed length. However, if the track frame is too far in on the pivot shaft, it will cause the track frame to be toed out to the front. If the track frame is too far out on the pivot shaft, the reverse will apply. The amount that the track frame will move in when the track goes up or down is miniscule over the range of movement of the equaliser bar. Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Cat design engineers would have taken that into consideration at some point, WAY before it ever went 'into iron'. Hope this helps. :bash
Well, I would guess they use thrust washers and the outer cap to keep the roller frame from falling off the machine should the EQ bar break (and they do) and /or to limit roller frame lateral movement when the outer EQ bar spherical bearings fail or get loose. If you have ever been around older cat low drive tractors (D9H, D8K or D7G) you may recall the outer EQ bar set up. They put pins through the outer ends, but no bored holes in the roller frames. Rather they put thrust blocks on each side of the pins, and they had shims behind them to adjust clearance to the pins. The outside block was adjusted to touch the pin (because the pins cannot travel outward) but the inside block had to have 1/4" clearance to the pin to allow for the inward pin travel as th EQ bar ARCS up. On low drive machines the roller frames can't slide in and out because they're clamped to the outer final support so engineering had to design "slop" into the EQ bar system to allow for outer pin lateral travel. High drives have absolutely no slop in the EQ bar to roller frame connection. So, when the EQ bar oscillates, the outer pins effectively get closer together taking the roller frames with them. If the roller frames didn't have provision for lateral movement they would have to flex inward during oscillation, and those roller frames are pretty hefty pieces of iron!
Deas, I have checked to see if the rail is riding on the inside of the roller but it has been so long ago I honestly dont remember but the machine is parked on level ground tonight and I will check in the morning to see what it looks like. I do not have a carrier roller, been thinking about getting them put on though. Another thought I just had is. Are the segments universal or is there a right side and a left side? If they're not universal I might have left side sprockets on the right side. Just thinking out loud. I guess I can check the parts manual.
They can be used on either side.:usa
EQ bars Hi, Bolt Thrower. It just so happens that I have had a little to do with the older Cat tractors, Cat 20's, Cat 22's, 2T and 6U-7U D's, D4D's, D6 8U's, D6C's & D's, 3T and 17A D7's, D7E's, F's & G's, 2U D8's, D8H's, K's and an L, D9G's, H's & L's. It also just happens that I do, albeit vaguely, (I'm getting on a little in years now - you might need to forgive the odd memory lapse.) remember how the original spring equalisers and later the solid equalisers contacted the track frame. There was no lateral location mechanism of any kind at either end of the equaliser, be it spring or solid bar. All I EVER saw at the ends of any of the equaliser spring arrangements as far as location was concerned were pins with egg-shaped rollers ABOVE the end of the spring to stop the spring lifting out of its guide slot and allowing the body of the tractor to rear over backwards. The equaliser spring ends simply sat on pads that were usually either welded or bolted to the top face of the track frame. Elegant in its simplicity. All the earlier solid equaliser bars that I saw had two rubber pads set in pockets in the track frame itself. Then there was saddle that straddled the front idler adjusting rod and sat on the rubber pads. The ends of the equaliser bar sat on these saddles. With the solid equaliser bars, most were set into the mounting of the front carrier roller which served as an anchor to stop the rearing up. I never saw a D9D or E, so I don't know what set-up they had but the photos that I have seen of them would seem to indicate that the equaliser - bar or spring - was not encaged in the front carrier roller mounting. I would imagine that they had some other form of retention to stop the tractor body rearing up. The inward movement that you speak of with regard to the later 'pinned-everywhere' equaliser bars would, as I mentioned above, be pretty minimal over the arc that the equaliser bar describes in the limited range of its movement. Minimal to the extent that I doubt the track chain would even notice it. Hope this helps.
Question...I'm showing my knowledge of the larger dozers. What would be the maximum amount of vertical travel, from maximum upper position to maximum lower position, the track could move? Also, how long is the equalizer bar?
Range Of Movement. Hi, CountryBoy. The range of movement will vary from the smaller models to the larger ones, as will the length of the equaliser bar. I don't have those figures available for any of the current or recently current models. Hopefully, some of our better-informed members with far larger libraries of technical info will pop right up with some answers. I have noticed that the high-sprocket machines seem to have less vertical movement of the track frames than the earlier oval-track machines. Early in my association with D9G's, I got the front of one track up and the front of the other down to such an extent that I thought something had 'broke'. I got off the machine and inspected it, like any good operator would, discovered that it was all still firmly bolted together, and continued working. I never again worried about seeing the tracks at vastly different levels on a D9G.
The E/Bar Deas I always love to read your post's as I always think they are well scripted with a good helping of knowledge, the only flat drive Cat that had some moderate end beam location was the D8K, there was adjusable wear packers (with shims) that held lugs on the beam to limit travel,also the center of the beam is pinned, on the H/drive tractors there is next to no lateral movement on the dead shaft (in - out), the eqalizer bar (which has been re-worked) is pinned in the center, on the outer ends it is pinned through spherical rod end bearings,there is a good gap each side of the e/beam and the track frame, so pivital distance changes are not realy a problem or an issue, the down side is the lack of grease these spherical bearings have to live with, it's rare/never for me to come across any driver that greases any of the 3 points on these beams, thankfully for me that is, as I would fit on average 5 service ex, beams a year,in the CAT service manual it says you need to remove the track frame to swap out the beam , I dont bother with this crap, I drive the tractor up on a couple of sleepers (1under each track, then place about a foot and a half of packing under each blade corner, take up a bit of the weight by pressing the blade down then whip out the 3pins then press down on the blade untill the rad, group is way past the track top, I then throw a sleeper across both tracks going under the radiator for a bit of safety, then pull the old beam out and new beam in from the back of the tractor, then hook up 2 pull lifts to lift the beam in place, its to heavy to lift with man power, I always allow a day to swap a beam on site I have some pic's of 1 I did the other day I will post them asp all the best tctractors
'E' Beam location. Hi, TC. Best wishes for a happy and properous 2008 to you and yours and to all HEF members. Thanks for that information. Unless I'm mistaken, the D8H, D9G and maybe the D8K and D9H had what they called a 'rolling contact' equaliser bar that fitted into a saddle under the main frame. This saddle went from one main frame rail to the other under the engine and had a downward-facing convex face with fore-and-aft grooves in it that matched ridges on the top face of the E-bar to locate it under the frame. When both tracks were level, the E-bar only contacted the saddle in the middle, placing equal weight on both tracks. As one track went up, the contact point of E-bar moved to the high side of the frame, theoretically placing more weight on the higher track. I'm not totally sure about which models this system appeared on but remember that it was around the time of the models mentioned above. The Cat brochures of the time featured a 'schematic' of the system showing one track raised on a block of timber while the other was flat on the deck and the contact point moved to the side of the raised track. Do you remember this system?
For those who like a bit of history. Hi, TCTractors. You probably won't have to strain your memory cells too much to know where this photo came from or the hassles involved in getting to this stage with such a job. Long 'cheater' pipes, big sockets, sweat - even in 'Blighty' - mud, dust, tears, bad language, all the 'good' stuff. My thanks to Nicky Lamb for this photo. I hope he won't mind me 'borrowing' it from CMN to show the E-bar mounts in the track frame of a D8K. This is about the best photo I have seen of this part of the track frame in recent times. It shows the rubber shock pads, the saddle that the E-bar rested on, the channel through the saddle for idler yoke push rod and the carrier roller mount over the top to hold the E-bar in place. If my memory serves me right, the D8H's and the D9G's and H's were all pretty much the same set-up. I do stand to be corrected on this. I suspect that frame is about ready for new idler guides too. LOL. (Nah!!!!! 'Nuther 3,000 'ars' in 'em yet.)
I have been hesitant to respond to this thread because i am not that experienced with high tracks, but i do know ovals.On ovals alignment problems are easily diagnosed, so i doubt that is a toe in or toe out problem. As a post early suggested I suspect the vertical alignment between sprocket and track frame. It would seem to me you check this by putting straight edge down outside edge of sprocket to edge of recess in bottom roll. Do the same to inside of sprocket and see how well your centered.Most alignment problems i have uncounted have been from : wear on wish bone bearings and pivot bearings ,Breakage, poor repairs of breakage, and of coarse accident such as falling of trailer.
I meant to add on new machine wear should not have been problem- so must be Assembly or accident . I wonder if the high sprocket makes the misalignment less noticeably
Old Bangers, Deas, the D8H also the D8K had the same bits under the E/beam , but on the ends of the K's bar is 2 lugs, these lugs are trapped inside the top roller bracket and you adjust for wear etc by placing or removing shims from behind wear pads, this gives extra support to the track frame alignment, on all flat track CAT's the important bush and pin is the inner wishbone item ,you may have seen some of my capers on another Cat machinery site (that likes D2's, I've never touched 1 with a spanner????) anyhow I have fitted K track frames into a 68a with a small mod, I could post a picture and adjusment detail asap, just to make things clear, You can pull a track frame off a D8H without removing the gizmo that holds the top roller (as in Nick's pic) but on a D8K you have to ether remove a long bolt + tube or unbolt the complete gizmo to get the pig off. tctractors
Hi DEAS, its cool that youv'e been around these tractors to. I to have been around them, under them and through them and have the scars and orthopaedic surgery to show for it. The picture is from a D8H service manual, 46A28137 and up. Sorry about the blurry pic, but you can see the EQ bar end pin and corresponding thrust plates, with the large gap to the inside to compensate for lateral pin travel. This system was the predecessor to the pinned EQ bar on H/drives and was used for the entire D8K production run as well.
Heres the D9H parts drawing showing same design.
Picture of D8K carrier roller support. Note the four holes below the carrier roller for access to the bolts securing the outer thrust blocks to the roller tower.
Good stuff. Bolt thrower,the pic's are Bang on, showing the center pin location and end trappings, (Deas) on the D8H tractors there was no center pin or end lugs on the bar, also less bolts holding the roller gizmo in place, the amount of movement on the flat track (oval) Dozers was massive compaired to the high track tractors, tctractors
Further info. Hi, Bolt Thrower and TCTractors. Thanks for scans. That makes things a lot clearer. I was only ever involved in replacing the rubber blocks in one D8H and that was in about June/July 1968, so it was possibly somewhat earlier than the page you have scanned. I can remember the through bolt above the E-bar under the carrier roller. This through bolt went from front to rear of the mounting above the E-bar and had a convex sleeve on it so that any contact with the E-bar was in the middle of the E-bar regardless of the angle of the track fame or E-bar. I gather this was to stop the edges of the E-bar chewing at the bolt when the track frame was very high or very low. TC, I can understand why the range of movement appears less on the high-sprocket machines. After all, the pivot is around 1/3 of the track frame length in from the rear and the E-bar is about the same distance in from the front. To move much further would begin to greatly increase that 'pulling inwards' effect that Bolt Thrower mentioned earlier. On top of that, around 1/3 of the actual movement of the track frame is behind the pivot point and is in the opposite direction from the movement ahead of the pivot and thus tends to go largely un-noticed. Personally, I'm still not convinced that the high-sprocket drive in its current form is the best possible configuration for a crawler tractor.
pics Here are the pix of the sprockets http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/BassGambler13/D6R/100_0202.jpg outside right sprocket inside right outside left
The first three pics looks like the sprocket is not centered, maybe someone installed it on wrong. There is way too much wear on the sides, almost like you were side sloping for 200 hours.
d6peg, I do not really see much in your pictures to worry about. I've seen dozens of rails and sprockets on all size tractors with much worse wear patterns than what you have so far shown. They worked just fine and so far as I can remember, the rails, pins, bushings, and sprocket faces wore out before anything like what you have shown so far caused a machine down situation. However, if you really think you have a problem, get your Cat PSR (Parts and Service Representative) out to take a look and make some recommendations. He would be the final authority in any case.
I agree with what you said surfer joe. I am not as worried about the sprocket wear as I am the with the inside of the rail wearing because it is riding on the outside edge of the sprocket.
They work nice but they sure have ALOT of expensive parts to wear out, particularly 8's and bigger.
Wearing parts. Hi, Bolt Thrower. No argument there. (Hey! I think that's my shortest post ever. LOL.)
Here is an update. I was told the other day that probably nothing will be done about the undercarriage problems. I called the customer service rep about a month ago about the dry links issue and he said he would call back the next week and I have still not heard back from him.:Banghead
Ah well, you have to keep after them ya know. He might have a customer or two that actually owns two tractors, so may consider them more important and deserving of his time. Call his boss and explain the PSR guy's lack of performence compared to his promise.
It sure sounds like your dealer is dragging there feet on helping you or be it Cat. Before i got a set of new rails and put back on your machine i would add the carrier roller to your machine.It will pay for them selves. I know where you live being in Texas that sandy soils is a problem as far as wear on the pins and bushing,but i would think with all the troubles you have had already with the dry pins that the rails wasn't up to snuff to start with. The pictures of the wear on the sprocket is still more from dry pins and not running straight ,which the carrier roller would help a lot to at least help keep them in line. It also takes out a lot of the flip in the tracks when your turning.I work more in muddy conditions,but even with that it didn't take me long to have the carrier roller assembly added on my D6H which didn't come with them and it is an 1988 model. The last time i changed to new rails i didn't change my sprockets and put another 2500 hours on them before i changed the sprockets.I usually get around 6000 hour out of my Cat rails,and that was just standard rails not the heavy duty rails. Which i couldn't put on my old H machine until i had the track guards widen so i could get the heavy duty rails ,because Cat changed the standard rails to take a different bolt pattern pad and i still wanted to use my old pads ,so i opted to widen the guards and got the heavy duty rails now,but still only have the 40 link rail,not the 41 links like on the new H'S and R's. Give your rep another call and tell him it's been a long week and was wondering what was going on???? It can sure be a big aggervation at times to get them to do anything that is for sure.But when you buying they always tell you how great the warranty is.Good luck:usa
Constructo, I agree with the carrier rollers, that they need to be added and I do plan on it when we can enough money ahead to do it. It seems like all the profit we used to make goes back into fuel now days. Like surfer joe said, we might be the low man on the totum pole with since we have only bought one dozer from them. I have contacted a mechanic that is a good friend and he said when he is in the area he will bring his infared gun and see how many links that are dry.
The Caterpillar Undercarriage Assurance Program should take care of the dry joints. NO questions asked. That program is for 3 years or 4000 hrs. or the link assembly is 100% worn. It is good for breakage and leaks of rollers, idlers, and track joints. If it is turn time,the labor will be yours. Tell the PSSR to use the program that's what it's there for. You have not received the value of the link assembly.
I have been following this thread for some time and now have an opinion. I think it is time to pull out the stops! I would go to the CAT website and get the names of the CEO, COO, GM and evey high ranking officer. I would then craft a well thought out letter detailing this fiasco keeping it professional but pulling no punches. I would mention the name of the CAT rep and dealer that is giving you the run around. I would also praise the overall quality and reliability of CAT products and reinforce if this situation is not handled in an acceptable manner you will have to consider other brands on your next purchase. I would also mention notifying other operators and equipment owners of your treadment. You could also buy a couple shares of CAT stock and go to a share holders meeting and expose this. I would send certified copies to the Suits and the dealer. Based on your experience I do not think I would consider a CAT product if this is how they treat their "small customers"
Legdoc, I agree and have considered doing as you have said, but since the machine is still under warranty and since this is a pre-existing condition I still feel like the dealer will treat me right. I did talk to the customer rep today and he assured me that he would come take a look. I hate to ruffle too many feathers at this point since the dealer is only 20 miles from home and the next nearest is several hundred miles away. Also, some of the guys are pretty good friends. We'll see what happens in the next week or two and I will continue to keep everybody posted.
Field repair of SALT links Budd... how about if the dry bushings are related to the dealers field repair? wouldn't that becomes the dealers responsibility?
Wulf, Yes. I am almost sure the dry pins are pins that were once replaced.
Yes, The Cat Undercarriage Assurance Program covers repairs by the dealer as well as factory assembly. The program also cover leaks of dealer reshelled rollers and reconditioned idlers. Who is the Cat Dealer, Where is he located, Who is the Rep. And what is his phone number? Something this simple has gone on way too long.....
I'm sure they do cover dealer repairs but would question whether CAT would recommend the field replacement of 30 links? Surely this should have been done at the track shop on a track press and if repaired and relubed properly then they wouldn't have leaked?
abnormal wear what is the s/n of your 6 have you got 1730945 segments what are the link part#s
The serial # is an AEM 0134, the segments are 1730946 (I couldnt tell from the parts manual if there is a seperate part # for left side and right side, it generaly list it as being seperate but not this time) & the link part# is 8e7406. Wulf, I might have been unclear in previous post but the initial repair was done in a track shop ( approx. 24 links), but the previous 2 times (4 links one time and 2 the next were done in the field). It looks like the links that were done in the field are the ones that are dry. I dont know just how dry the links are though, they squeak at times and are warm to the touch when the other links are cool to the touch. Sorry it took me so long to get back (went fishing today ).
The cat man came out today and used his infared gun on the pins and all but one checked out ok. All the pins ran between 44 and 47 degrees but the only one that was a concern was about 67 degrees and he said just keep an eye on it. He thought everything else looked as it should. He did measure the UC and will get back to me after he enters the measurements in the computer and I will let everybody know. He said that it is still wearing on the outside of the segments, but it shouldnt cause any loss of life on the UC.
The portion where you talk about the "toeing out" seems to be my problem. I have accelerated wear on the outside/top portion on one track. Justr started a month or so ago, but really grinding it of quickly. How can this be addressed if it is the problem? Thank you