Anyone here have any experience with or information about? I have an upcoming project at our local airport which requires the location of existing electrical conduit. I have garden variety circuit tracers which will on a good day trace and locate conduit to 4' but in this instance they are proving ineffective. This is an airport "internal" project and they would rather not pay for a locating service and I sort of promised them I could locate the conduit. I have no issue with cost so long as it doesn't cost a leg since I can use the equipment for future projects. When the pro's are around it seems they use locators made by 3M but I'm never there long enough to strike up a conversation.
i find a cat 345 hoe with a 48" bucket locates utilities real well.
Oh no doubt qball, I've used every brand and have found they are all excellent "inadvertent" locators. Yeah but, nah, that's not what will work at an international airport.
We have a ditch witch locator that we use on some sites. It works just as any other locator. We have provided a locate service with that locator to several petroleum pipeline companies. Certainly a handy thing to have around.
I had always thought that the Ditch Witch Locator was used in conjunction with their horizontal boring machines. I never considered they would work for any locating.
we mainly use these in the uk http://www.radiodetection.com/ you wont find a utility gang without one, or shouldn't
A couple of months ago I saw a device advertised , it was like a xray machine from what I could work out . It could pick up water pipes , just about any cable , etc . I had a think about it over a few days and decided I would find out some more .... now , I can't remember where I seen that darn thing advertised anywhere . If anyone seen anything like what I,m talking about can you post information about it so a forgetful sole , me , can find out more , Thanks Haddy
SeaMac, :my2c I would recomend finding someone that can run a Vining rod or a pair of float wires. I live in Wisconsin or I would do it for you. I can't explain it to you because my Mom believed in them and I can't remember not being able too. I find it works with old 5 conductor telephone wires, buried elec, buried Natural Gas Plastic lines, sewer caps that are buried, sewer lines what ever is buried. I ain't blowing smoke and I don't know how it works I just know it does and I am sure that someone in Florida can too. This is real, I am a Christian and I don't believe it is anything paranormal. There is an answer, in the Physics Department, I am guessing could explain it or maybe it it,"JUST ONE OF THOSE THINGS" not everything can be explained. I have never searched into it because :beatsmeI just am satisfied that it does. Make a couple float wires and try it yourself, you may have the touch. I am not a nut:crazy, Invent_4U
Hi Invent_4U, Yeah um, I'm gonna have to pass on that. Like I said, this is an international airport and I have to have documentation to support my findings and location which in-turn has to be confirmed by an engineering firm before work can progress. We are talking about a 13,2 kv electrical service so there is no room for error. I will look into the Ditch Witch locator since I have frequent dealings with them for trencher rentals. I do however appreciate your suggestion and I thank you for it as well.
We have a chicago steeltape. Picksup farrous metals real well and when you locate a power wire it flashes on the screen "caution powerline". It can be very sensitive so you got to give it a little trial run before going to the big league.
The CST/Berger, I just Googled them. They look pretty interesting, I may well check into them too. Thanks buckfever...
Tell the fools that run the airport to come off the cash and get a locating company out there. You hit that line and someone could get killed. If it is an international airport like you say it is and not a mom and pop dirt strip they can afford the cost of a locating company a lot better then the cost of a lawsuit, not to mention the cost of repairs and the down time due to power outage. You are also putting yourself in a liabilty situation if anything goes wrong.
Not so much a risk as you think, I am the Electrical Contractor doing the work. Liitle risk of unplanned power outage and myself and my guys are all certified to 35kv. The County doesn't like to spend money they don't have a o.
Just to add, it is not that we are attempting to locate the conduit to avoid it, we need to locate it to intercept then tap into it. We know where manhole A is and manhole B we just aren't certain of the exact path the conduit takes between A and B. We go through this all the time and ordinarily our circuit tracers will indentify the conduit and path, in this case the conduit is deeper than we can trace or code requires making the whole matter a PITA. As for liability, just for the privilege to work there I have to have a ridiculous amount of liability insurance.
That is ground penetrating radar. Ditch witch also makes them. Sounds like over kill for what they are mentioning here. Radiodetection or ditch witch should do the job. the ground penetrating radar is great for finding plastic pipe, PVC etc.
Yeah buddy605, I'm not going to pay for GPR on a $60k job. I should be able to borrow a Ditch Witch locator then eventually purchase my own since there are too many times when I could use one.
There are Ditch Witch locators being offered for sale on Ebay. Here is the owners description of one of them. ---- Ditch Witch Electronics Model #300 SR-ST very good condition. Comes as pictured with carry case and manual. Locator has been very well taken care of. Rides in cab of truck and taken in house at night. Owner operated by me, a utility contractor. Locates accurately and shoot depth within an inch or two.
Thanks Tinkerer, I'll look into that right now.
Understood, just didnt want you to get stuck. Since you are the Electrical Contractor you know what you are dealing with and the dangers involved. Good luck with the project, those government jobs can be a pain.
Thanks for the reply buddy , I will look into that . Haddy
we used to use a large vacume borer for locating services, worked well but was quite high maintenance
,,,,,,,,, and buried bodies
Ground Penetrating Radar sounds like what I need BUT I have just found out the price of them :thumbdown, approx $40k here . Maybe I don't need one after all:beerchug
Hey SeaMac, Originally GPR (ground penetrating radar) was very expensive but in the past 5 years costs have dramatically come down. Here are some options available from actual manufacturers and not OEM based systems. www.gprlocates.com LMX-100 (Lists for around $13,900.00) - This unit strictly "Locates and Marks" the targets. www.sensoft.ca Noggin 250 SmartCart (Lists for around $21,000.00) - Unit Locates and marks and also has the ability to map the targets; integrates the easiest with a GPS as well to georeference your locates. Highly advise that this be used with a traditional wand locator. GPR won't tell you what your looking at. Since you are working in Palm Beach County (Airport I'm assuming); soil conditions there are ideal for GPR. Cheers, Greg Summers (Sales rep for Sensors & Software Inc - GPR Manufacturer Tele: 905-624-8909 Ext. 281 or Cell: 416-884-8119)
Hi GPRGuy, Yes it is PBI or Palm Beach International, but I wasn't planning on spending anywhere near that much. I could either purchase or make a hefty down-payment on a new flats boat for that much. I do appreciate the input however.
Thanks for the quick reply SeaMac, Depending on what your budget is, you could always rent (cost would be about $1617.00 - 7 days) $231.00 per day, not including the shipping (~$700 returned). Or check with Southeastern Surveyors in Orlando, they are selling some older units (5-10yrs old). I'm not too sure what the cost is but their number is 407-292-8580. Best of Luck! If you do need a Locator, they are good as well. Greg S.
For this project, it should only take 1.5 hours if that, we're only talking one 800' parallel conduit run between manholes. I have an eBay bid for a Ditch Witch model which won't break the bank and will be useful in the future. Thanks again...
SeaMac, :badidea Maybe. It does work better than you would believe, but for the application you were talking about, I hoped you wouldn't take it so seriously. The Facility Manager should have a print showing all internal work done and if he does you can only trust it with a reliability factor of 50% or less for accuracy. If this is holding you up you've lost, what, A couple grand a day figuring it out. If this is an International Airport I would imagine the work needs to be done. You say it is an internal job but I don't know if you are refering to the original placement of the conduit or if you work for the airport and don't want to bid it out which if you have certified electricians for this voltage. If you want to get the job done there is no magic answer:IMO, just basically 1 right one and the fact you are even asking this question concerns me. "Ground Penetration Radar" is the answer if you do not like any of the tracers you have mentioned. 35K if handle inappropriately can jump up and bite you in the butt. You say you are dealing with internal wires ([/I]not installed by the Power Company[/I]) and it is work that sounds like after being located and excavated 'near' the located point, the rest includes a great deal of hand shoveling with dielectric tools and portable safety cage also dielectric and then there is all kinds of safety personal equipment needed as well. The bottom line is if you work for the airport and they want you to work with this and you have no more eqipment than you have indicated, you have no business doing it. The Building and Grounds Manager needs to bid a job like this out, it's the only logical thing. If you are a contractor and only have the equipment indicated then It would be my advise to sublet it out. As for the airport not wanting too... this type of work can (In most States anyway) can only be done by certified electricians for High Voltage. If you are a contractor and don't have the equipment bid the job, 'TIME & MATERIAL only', if you get it then you can 'Purchase the truckload of tools and personal equipment needed and hire a Certified Industrial or Distrubution Electrician to over see the job and you may get it done. This is not a job that you should have to ask to many questions before you try doing it, or maybe it needs be done by a Certified Electrician in High Voltage. We lose enough people every year in the job of Operating Alone! What ever you decide, the best of luck! Invent_4U
Wow, a mouthful for sure, Okay first, I am a State Unlimited Electrical Contractor, I can, do and have worked line voltages up to 35kv, myself and my employees are beyond qualified and certified to do any line work, barehand or gloved to 35kv. As for internal, that implies that it is within the scope of jurisdiction and authority of the airport, there is a permit which I have pulled, this project will be inspected by the County, Airport and TSA. As for equipment, I have thousands upon thousands of dollars in equipment, I do not have a locator because I generally don't need one and thought since this project would be easily accommodated with the equipment I currently own. I am in the process of purchasing a Ditch Witch locator which will work fine for this project and future ones. I actually find it somewhat offensive that you assume that I would put myself or crew at risk. I am on the Emergency Responders list of Florida Power & Light (FPL) and FEMA and have been on the list for 15 years and respond nationwide to restore power if needed. As for the Facility Manager, a man I have known for 20 years, he does have as-builts for the airport and with them we know of the general direction of the conduit run, we know where manhole 16 is and manhole 17 we need to know exactly where the conduit run is between these manholes so we can intercept the conduit, install another manhole and tap off the service for new security guard house. As for my contract with the airport, simple, I do all work under a certain dollar amount anything above is competitve bidding, it is the contract I have county wide. As far as dielectric tools, and caging, clearly you are not involved in high-voltage line work, we use non-conductive digging tools and FR rated clothing which is required by the NEC. As for being certified, in Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississipi, Louisiana, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio just to name a few, my license allows me to build ANYTHING to ANY voltage with the sole exception of a Nuclear Power Plant, which to be honest I have no desire to work on. So, I thank you for your concern but yeah, I think I've got this one.
We were able to purchase our first and only locator a Schonstedt mac51bx....it is not the same device as the locator service folks have, it is not like the one the plumbers use to find the sonde attached to their camera, it is not like the one the electric utility folks have....but it has a wand with a magnetic locator and two frequencies for superimposing a signal. So it is called a combination unit I believe since it also does metal. When I initially asked about which one to get, I did get some (free) stern counseling about "me messing around in areas (like self locating) that I had no business doing" but for so many times (back when the economy was good) we could locate underground phone lines, electrical cables in conduits and direct bury, and the magnetic feature was great for say re-finding some of our own work when we needed to temporarily cover it up for an access way, then go back and find the piece of flat metal and extend the sweep to grade or pull box etc etc. * I was looking on here recently to see if there was more definitive information on other models,and I found a lot of advice on if a firm should or should not be doing this stuff. Luckily for the cautious ones, since the economy is dead we don't do it or much of anything else for that matter, and therefore we are safe from ourselves....but in respect to their advice, sometimes you get a job for a customer that expects it to be done and that damaged utility just makes everyone sour. Maybe I should somehow change my arrangements and I think there is a lot of merit to that. * On another note, I messed up the tool two years ago because I put the batteries in backwards (inside work in dark warehouse) and the electrical part was smokin and stinking....even with the dead economy, I miss having it so I am sending it in to see if it can be repaired. The metal detector still functioned as it is built into the wand. * At the next Con Expo, I will make a point of looking into these devices and their costs etc because having this tooling while we dig through all of our iterations and steps 'sneaking up on the utility' and potholing it etc etc just makes us less likely to damage something. * I wish I had more experience to help you on other models but this is our only. The tool does a great job and I know one could find water pipes and sewer lines if they had a tracer wire or maybe one could be fished....but frankly the repair for a phone cable or an electrical wire is so much more difficult than patching a sewer or a water pressure line IMO.
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/ridgid/index.htm
After digging on several sites that have had GPR used, I find it to be smoke and mirrors. Working in the environmental excavation end of the business a lot of our clients require utility location before excavation. A lot of sites include unknown infrastructure in place for decades, that have been "lost" or never have an actual location. This infrastructure is usually still in use and carries a lot of wicked chemicals. One site from last year still strikes a chord with me. The site had been located with a utility locator. Great for tracking known lines where you can connect to them. The site was all corse sand. It was decided that GPR would also be used. They failed to locate several clay sanitary sewers, and drain tiles. Those were no huge deal, as none were in use anymore. The real concern was GPR's failure to locate a 2 inch plastic coated steel product line. No one knew it was there, no one knew what it carried. Needless to say we exposed a few more feet of the line, and the GPR contractor was called out to try again. Even with what we found and exposed, the GPR could not locate this line. It goes to show, never trust without verifying, and always dig like there is something there.
SeaMac, You did say a mouthful and it seems you can do anything you need to , I am always concerned when I read about someone asking certain questions because in todays econamy noone wants to turn anything down, but it sounnds like you have all your T's- cross and I's- dotted. I live in a town of 3500 people and our city municipality has in the past 30 years had 2 freinds of mine killed because they knew someone and were given jobs they were not gualified for and ended up dying while working with High Voltage wires. I know of thier 7 kids who grew up without thier Dad. I use 'dielectric' as a term for anything non-conductive no matter what voltage or power source. I have a friend who has went to Canada fishing several times with me so I have had hours and hours of talking with him and all he does is operate an excavator in Chicago. He told me there was always something not marked or not marked within perameters and are hit regularily. He said that he did the max of the excavating but the always had to finish with non-conductive shovels and personal clothing. Even doing local work years ago with my backhoe I always used hand tools at the end to avoid the "accurate with in so many plus or minuses" listed on City Plans. Good luck and be safe, Invent_4U