They look damn good when you see one- but I've never seen one done and can't do a decent one myself. Saw a youtube video but it didn't help much either. Any tips for a vertical upweld?
Man I used to, when I was an ironworker. Darn can't see good enough nowdays to weld like I used to...drives me nuts! Stick or MIG? Stick; 7018 1/8". Going from top down gives better appearance welds, but the process isn't accepted as preferred structural strength. Going from bottom up is preferred structural method. Tip? Don't use exessive heat (amperage). Use only enough amps to obtain penetration and burn rod. Amps too high just makes a mess.
I'd like to do both but you can see great Mig welds in dump truck and trailer boxes. Downwelds aren't too difficult but like you said, upwelds are supposed to be more structural.
Heck, I wish I could see good enough to make a good flat weld like I used to, not just a vertical. :Banghead
You're welcome: http://www.sweethaven.com/sweethaven/BldgConst/Welding/lessonmain.asp?lesNum=7&modNum=6
Been going to a welding class and working on Vertical Up welds. So far from what I have been taught, Low Amp's and need to move quick so the weld does not pool up. Practice Practice Practice and you finally get it.
Nice link man! Yep, that's they way I used to do it.
Yeah, I get the low amps and I've seen diagrams but maybe it really is "practice practice practice"...
Brother, all methods of welding are all about practice. You can study the methods, burn them in your memory. But it takes your eyes and hand to work the operation. Seeing the puddle, seeing what's slag and what's molten metal while your burning. Practice practice practice.
It's a lot easier with a DC welder running a 7018 rod. I went to vo tech at night when I was 13. Not for the teaching, unlimited rods and steel for under $30.00 at the time. That's when I got good at uphill. 3 hours a night, two night's a week. If you practice that much at anything you will get good at it. For anyone wanting to learn to weld government or state tech schools is a good deal. At least in my area.
The trickiest part of vertical up welding, be it MIG or stick, is getting the edges of the weld to "wet" properly on the sides. To little, and the weld will end up being humped in the middle, and it won't be strong b/c it lacks fusion on the sides. Too much, and you get undercut, which traps slag (with stick or flux-core welds) and is a weak spot. With a subsequent "hot pass" after your first, you may be able to completely nullify the effects undercut will have on the weld, but not always. Sometimes you need to grind it. What I have a tendency to do if I have welded V-up in awhile is not point weld far enough to the left and right as I weave, and not hold the weld to the sides long enough to prevent undercut. This only leads to me not whipping the weld back across the middle fast enough, causnig it to hump, or in the worst case, drip.:Banghead As was said before, proper amps, wirefeed for MIG, and electrode size for stick. Another key is being able to build and hold your "shelf" as you progress up the part. Your shelf helps keep the weld where it needs to be, and without that, you ain't gonna have any luck. Bear in mind, the larger diameter the elcetrode, the harder it is to weld verticle up b/c of the heat needed to make it weld properly. If you can't do it with 1/8" rod, try 3/32". When I had to take my cert. tests in school, all of the stick was verticle up, 1/8" dia. rod. 5//32" is doable if the plate is heavy enough, but I've never tried larger for verticle up. Hope I helped some.
I take it you know how to do basic flat welding? What might be a thing to try is have someone who is good at vertical welding run a pass, and watch through your helmet what they are doing. Then try one yourself, and have that person watch you. They should be able to guide you while you are running the pass. After that it's back to practice.
Yep, that's the way I did it trukfan. Weave to the left, hold a moment, weave across the middle to the right, hold a moment, repeat process. And 1/8" 7018 DC reverse was my choice. Bigger than 1/8" required turning up the heat, not as easy to control. And, as an ironworker, you had to learn to lay down good welds the first go around. You don't have a grinder in your bolt bag when your hanging by a safety belt welding a connection. But when working on something on the ground I might grind the root pass just to set up a clean bead for the weave pass. I loved welding. Just can't do it worth a flip anymore.
Well I certainly hope so, I've been pretending to do it for 20 years. One of the kids at work said he could show me since he used to be a production welder. We set up a piece for him to demonstrate on but no one was impressed. trukfan- You did. A lightbulb flickered on in my head a couple of times while reading your post.
ATCO I'm glad I'm not the only one who grinds a weld they're not happy with:thumbsup
What puddle? :beatsme Same boat here Went to weld few weeks ago and I couldn't see the work. I haven't welded much or at all in a few years. I was never the best but I did make fuel tanks and truck bodies for my own company. Now :beatsme ointhead It is really depressing to know you can't do it. :Banghead:throwup:thumbdown
Speedpup, it's obvious you share the same pain I do. Welding is done by the hand that holds the stinger. But without the "eyes" to see...the hand can do nothing. I have no regrets of my age, except, I wish I could still "see" to weld. :Banghead
Vertical Upwelds: Every body seems to be under about the same opinion here... vertical-up is hard to do, and I agree. Of the three, so called, out of position welds... vertical-up, horizontal, and overhead... up is the hardest for me, so I usually weld down... even though it's not proper, and you can't pass a test with that procedure. One technique that can help, a little, sometimes... is to hold your rod at a slight angle... pointed up. I hated v-up back in school, but I passed all the coupons... that's back when you put a strip of the plate you welded in a jig concern, and bent it into a U-shape... if no cracks or pin holes showed up, it was considered a good weld. Surprisingly, horizontal and overhead didn't seem as hard for me... a lot of guys had hell with overhead... I do have a nice scar, from some slag that rolled under my watch band, doing overhead... lol I don't know how the test is done now... and I wouldn't pass any way... not without a lot of practice, maybe not then either... same problem... vision!! ATCO... or anybody, have you tried the magnifying lenses? OCR PS: I'm talking all 7018 here... DC... reverse polarity.
One of our older drivers helps me in the shop when things are slow. I got him some magnifiying cutting goggles and he loves them.
When I was a whippersnapper an old hand at welding old me the only difference between a good welder and a bad one is the bad one is afraid to use the grinder,grind clan grind the root weld grind the ugly weld,he was of the opinion that before you put on a cap weld you should lightly grind the filler to remove any oxidation ,he was the only man I ever knew who could weld a pipe using a mirror.Mig,gas, tig or stick they were all the same to him. I myself have an inverter tig compatible welder and would trade it for land, very lite and a pleasure to use ,on vertical runs a twist of a knob adjusts the amps ,very sensative. Don't do that much welding now but try and avail of any opportunities on the farm when they arise.Here are the specs:- 160 Amp inverter / Tig This inverter will weld up to 160 amps and use up to 3.2mm electrodes Input Power 240 volt (single phase) + or – 10% Fuse Rating 16 Amps Generator Required 5.3 KVA Output Power 20 – 160 Amps Duty Cycle 155 Amps 60% Weight 8 KG Dimensions 371 x 155 x 295mm Electrode Size 1.6 – 3.2mm
i have better luck with wire welders if i start at the bottom with a puddle then stop and put another puddle on top, sort of like piling coins on one another and keep going up. just my way of doing things rick
I can see close and read tiny, tiny print it is the light. thst is not the problem I have early early stages of cataracts. I see the light but not the surrounding work. :Banghead:Banghead I can weld by feel if it is something I can just drag up or across like a corner weld. butt weld would be tough but I guess I can make a guide to feel straight lines Antone need a bridge welded?:bash
set your self up near your welding machine so you can easily adjust the amperage get a peice of scrap the same size you are planining to weld and start at the bottom of the plate and adjust the amperage till you can go straight up the plate with out weaving just a straight line up when you can acomplish this add about 5 amps and if you prefer try apractice piece strike your arc in the center of the joint and bring the rod out to the left or right and continue making a series of inverted sevens i usually start by going from the centre out to the left then go straight over to the right and hold that position for the count of 2 move back to the center then repeat trying to keep the distance you travel to the left and right the same amount(say the thickness of a welding rod) just remember to pause at the out side corners for a count of 2. Remember that the size of the rod you are using converted to a decimal is a good place to start for a heat setting example 1/8" rod should be some where about 125 amps, this is a pretty hard thing to describe in words much easier to show I hope this helps
"example 1/8" rod should be some where about 125 amps, this is a pretty hard thing to describe in words much easier to show I hope this helps" So what is a 4 or 8g rod used at??
its all about practice practice practice i can do one pretty good i am educated to build ships in steel the teacher at the school explained it this way to us... you will use a 3,5 mm esab 5305 you light the rod in the midle of the v joint let it burn just down the metal swing the tip to the left hold it there while you count one case of beer then swing to the left again count two case of beer and so on after some practise this procedure will give you a very nise weld
vertical welding i learned in welding class it is like cash. c stands for current, a for angle, s for speed, h for heat. they are in order of importance but none should be forgotten. in my experience, vertical welding relies heavily on angle. 30-45 degrees upward. a slight weave helps with a slight pause on each side of the weld, not in the center, it fills itself in. remember when welding up, heat rises so you will have to increase your speed slightly the further up you go. have a comfortable stance and rest when welding and remember it should be fun even if it is work. i hope this helps. tim
My godfather is a "retired" welder. In reality he still does it everyday. When he was teaching me, to get his point across, he would come in behind me and actually "hold" my hand and help me through it. This method really helped me. He could show me what happens when you change your angle, speed, and how to compensate for the heat rise. Now i am not saying that I am a great welder, I'm not by any means,maybe a little above average. I also use the 2 count method,and sometimes they are prettier than others, but I can't recall a failure...... not to say there hasn't been a few, just none that I can recall. As far as the "cheater" lenses as we call them, he uses them in his hood. When I am there, I have to search around for lenses so I can see what I am doing. Just offering a suggestion, and thinking out loud again. good luck,Heath
rod size---------amperage 3/32--------------90 1/8---------------125 5/32--------------150 3/16--------------190 1/4---------------250 PLEASE REMEMBER THIS IS A STARTING POINT ONLY depending on the age of your machine it could be a little higher or lower 32 years of welding experince
So, if your holding on the edges, and zipping across the joint, then aren't you getting less penatration where it counts?
No, you do a root pass fillet weld first, no weaving. Clean the slag off of the root pass, grind to remove any warts and prep the root pass for the weave pass on top of it. Does that make sense?
Yeah that does make sense- can the root pass be downward or should it be up as well?
I did structural welds as an ironworker. All verticals went up.
Ok then, I'll try a few tomorrow.
Great link! :notworthy Pj
you will find as you creep up the joint that the center of your weld will remain molten which will give you the penatration you want and by pausing at the outer edges it lets the center of the puddle to cool just enough that the hole thing wont roll down on you the most important thing is to be able to distingush between the slag and your weld puddle the slag is maybe two shades darker than your weldmet you want to make sure as you work your way up the joint that you do not trap the slag at the center of the joint and dead center of your weld should be slightly higher than your outer edges which also helps the slag to roll off the joint don't worry to much about the apperance of your finished weld as that will come in time as many others have said practice makes perfect.It is strucluraly benefical to run a root pass with 6010 first chip it clean if you have any hemroids hanging off your root pass by all means take a grinder to them and give the rest of your root pass a light pass over with a grinder I prefer to use a file on the outer edges of the root pass with a half round b*****d file as the dust from the grinder can become trapped in the crevises of the weld and possibly causing your weld to fail. I hope this helps
Very good thread, lots of useful info here:thumbsup Atco, I didn't realize you used to be an ironworker. Pretty tough bunch of dudes, generally- perhaps I had better take advantage of this opportunity to apologize for making all those jokes at your expense...
Apologize? For me havin' so much fun at my expense? Your crazy dave! :tong Yep, I've walked bar joists in my early days. Hung plenty of iron. Never had a failure with any of the steel we hung. When ironworkers build something...we build it to live forever.
Just as well he cant swim or I be in deep serious trouble them ,ain't it so Atco, He can't swim I can't run (barely able to walk) Thank god for natural barriers:salute:stirthepot
Vertical Upwelds: Whoa Betsy!!!... You guys do that, then all the wrath'll fall on me... Besides, I'd have to delete about a hundred PMs... :lmao OCR...
always up or you trap impurities.
Ahhh, but I can swim. :naughty But swim to Erin is a little more than I pleasure. Natural barrier it is. :tong You mean like this?
Vertical Upwelds: Well, maybe not that wrathful... How'd you do that, by the way??? OCR
Digger242j has been giving me lessons on how to use the power of The Force.
Vertical Upwelds: Aah!!!! OCR But, can you weld with one of those light things, or what ever they're called...or, just cut off hands!!!
Atco did you forget to close the oxy/acetylene kit again? or was some one trying to weld a gas tank again?Would a plasma cutter be safer?
i know i couldnt pass any welding test out there but over the years i had 2 customers that could tear up an anvil with a rubber hammer. several people tried to weld their equipment and failed. one of them lives a stones throw from me. back hoe bucket arm broke off. down hill weld in the 70s and still holding. lucky??????????????/
Actually, that's what happens when husband forgets anniversary with the wife. A wise man only learns this lesson once. :cool2
Vertical Upwelds: Could you please enlighten me, o' keeper of the force, how one could learn this lesson... even once??? At a great distance... I know... :tong You've been poking around in the philosophy portal, on Wikipedia, again... haven't you? Any thing about welding, in there... ... :lmao OCR...
You two old buzzards about done yet?
Hey Rob, we're just waiting on an update of your welding practice. Did you get to try any? Can't wait to here some results. And you can call me an old buzzard. I'm old enough to wear that title now. :cool2
Well if you want pictures ATCO, :umno need more practice...
As you have offered!! the viewing of some bird poo may help
T'is true. The appearance of the bead can gleen useful information for the experinced eye.
A very interesting thread. A number of you mention not being able to see the weld as well as you once could. One thing that helps my welding a lot (and it needs a lot of help when going vertical) is using a good automatic darkening helmet. That allows one to position the electrode (or wire) where it should be at that moment when the welding starts. And the helmet allows the user to adjust the darkness level so that one can see the welding better. Especially for MIG, one can use a lighter setting and see the weld a lot better. When MIG welding with the automatic helmets, one can stop and start to let things cool without constantly flipping the helmet up and down.
Vertical Upwelds: ... Ocr
:spongebob I hope you guy's know I was just teasing. I tried some vertical stick welds yesterday on a damaged clamshell. The results were...interesting. I need to find some pictures of what they are really supposed to look like, both stick and mig.
another way to describe the weave is to say pretend your drawing a figure eight horizontoly, slowly working your way up. using a dc machine and 7018 3/32 welding rod will help a new guy get the hang of it. good luck. union ironworker 951756
visited that welding web site,learned something new,things have changed since 1971,the triangle method does seem to make sense though, i never failed a welding test using the way i was tought. again good luck union ironworker 951756
IN the early 90's we started using FCAW exclusively here in California. Now all of our structural welding must be done with a "seismically rated electrode" AWS D1.8 I have been running NR-232 exclusively for the last 15 years on V-up welds in anything over 3/8" single pass. IF your going to run that wire or any other T-8 wire, forget what you know about V-up welding. For most stick or mig just watch your puddle form and keep ahead of the slag and stick and move with a weave. For structural welds the code says your weave cannot exceeds 3x the electrode diameter. so a 1/8" rod the max weave size would be 3/8"
I need to work on that bead width then, I was getting about 5/8 wide with 1/8 rod. No one has mentioned how time consuming V up is. I usually do everything possible to get the work horizontal for ease, appearance and time savings. My little attempt at proper V up took a huge amount of time and I not sure if it would take much less if I knew what I was doing.
proper amperage and rod for the base metal. Travel top to bottom with the rod angled in the direction of travel while maintaining a fairly long arc.
Does a long arc not increase the heat generated and reduce the deposition of metal?