Hello. I have been doing alot of maintenance/restoration on my old 1968 580B CK. Today I noticed that the oil pressure is reading way up near the maximum reading of 80psi. She cranks up great, sounds fine, but the oil pressure goes way up and stays just below 80, even after warming up. Only way to get it to drop down is to kill the engine. What is the normal oil pressure reading on these 4 cylinder diesel engines? Is this possibly a sign that the oil pump is getting clogged or something else? All advice is welcomed. Here is a pic of the oil pressure gauge with the engine off.....gauge reading is 0 to 80 psi.
I don't know much about engines that old, but I would venture to say possibly clogged oil galleries from years of oil coking. Maybe a clogged oil pick-up or improper oil filter. Could be as simple as a bad oil pressure sensor as well. One thing we did in the automotive industry to lower oil pressure on sports cars with stroker kits was to port the oil filter housing. Do those engines have a HEUI pump style setup? That could be an issue as well but that might be later technology and not applicable on that old of a Case. These aren't educated guesses on that particular engine, so I would recommend advise from folks who have worked on those classic Case engines as well.
Thanks D Grade for your input. I just changed the oil today and it was after the oil/filter change that I noticed the high pressure reading (I honestly do not know what it was reading before the oil change....daaaaaaaa). Lets assume the worse case, and there are clogged oil galleries. Does this mean that I need to quickly run some thin/soupy oil in her (maybe 50% diesel/ 50% oil) to try to break into those "clots"? Or would that Sea Foam be something to use? I suppose I first need to verify that that oil pressure sending gauge is good.....which means replacing it with a new one. Since the oil pan is so easy to remove, would you suggest that I remove it and see if the pick-up screen might be clogged?
I'm not a Case guy, but I feel comfortable saying there is NO HEUI on a 580B. Do you know what oil is in there? And that the filter is correct (usually wouldn't cause this, oil pressure should come off the end of the line). The gauge could be weak, showing pressure higher than actual. Unplug it and hook up a 100 psi gauge to the same place to see. There's probably an oil relief/bypass valve that could stick, but they usually stick open, not closed? Edit: oops, beat me to it. What are the numbers of the old and new filter? oil weight? any junk in the bottom of the oil drain pan?
Yeah, if the oil pan is easy to remove and you don't mind spending on another oil change, then I would say thats a pretty good idea. if you did start seeing high oil pressure after the oil change, I would try removing the oil filter and checking the inside to see if there was a paper or piece of packing that you might have missed before you put it on. At Caterpillar, we check the oil filters inside for packing and paper included with the filter. We have a pretty good chance of finding something in there and we've accidentally installed some filters with the paper still in there. Definitely not a good situation. As for the oil galleries, you can try seafoam and see if it works. If thats the problem and the seafoam isn't effective, then you're probably looking at an engine teardown to hot tank the block.
Delmer.....I just changed the oil, and the filter is a real Case filter. I used 10W30. Good idea.....I will unplug the oil sending line to the gauge and try a new one directly into the engine. (These engines have a oil line running from the engine all the way up to the gauge). After testing the oil pressure with a new gauge, I think I will pull the oil pan and see how that floating oil screen/filter is doing after all these years. But, a clogged screen would just make the pump run harder, making oil pressure lower, right? My fear is that the screen is clogged and the line between the pump and screen is ruptured, allowing the pump to suck up all kinds of trash/gunk and send it up to the engine gallies. I will investigate and reply back with what I discover this weekend.
DGrade.....good idea.....i will take the oil filter off and look inside. But wouldnt a clogged oil filter cause the oil pressure to drop way low instead of way high? I hope its something minor as I was not expecting some major engine work anytime soon.
After you check with a different gauge, and before you pull the oil pan, find out where the oil relief valve is. Hopefully it's visible around the oil filter base area and not inside the pan/pump.
Delmer, based on the shop manual, the oil pump is bolted right below the rear bearing cap, in front of the crank gear....thus inside the pan/pump. It does have a relief valve built into it.
I spent my life working on those engines in all forms of industrial and ag applications and have seen that high oil pressure many times, as long as it doesn't vary up and down dramatically I wouldn't worry about it. If the plunger was sticking closed you would have enough pressure to blow the filter apart and if it were stuck open the pressure would vary all over depending on rpm. It's probably fine. The pump is on the FRONT main bearing cap, BEHIND the crank timing gear.
My money is it's the gauge. Probably been like that for a while, but after an oil change you're going to look at it, and notice it's high. I used to wrench and got the complaint 'It didn't do that before I brought it in' lots of time. They were unaware of the car until they got it back and actually started paying attention. You get pressure from volume of flow against some kind of restriction. So anything that restricts the flow will increase pressure. So it's not a clogged intake screen; that will lower the pressure, because you don't have as large a volume working against the restriction.
Melben......your post is a huge injection of postive feedback, which is greatly needed at this time......now I am less worried about a total engine failure as a result of clogged oil galleries, and a huge cost at rebuilding the old engine. However, the high reading still gives me concern, and I will at least take the time to try another gauge. In my case, the high reading of almost 80 is the same at idle and at higher rpms. It goes back to zero when killing the engine. Lets assume that I test it with another gauge, and still get the high reading. With the thought of clogged oil galleries/lines in the upper head, would it be reasonable to first try dumping out the oil and adding a mixture of about 50% kerosene/50% oil, running her for 10 minutes to see if this might work loose the clogs, and maybe allow the high oil pressure to perhaps fall back to the 40-50 range? Another idea I had was to pour a gallon of kerosene directly into the valve cover via the valve cover breather tube, and let this work its way back thru the oil galleries, down the block, and back into the oil pump. Isnt it possible that this would help open up those "clogging arteries"? Another more simple idea was to add a quart of Sea Foam to the engine oil and see if maybe that would gradually open up the oil flow passages, and lower the oil pressure with time. Yesterday I commented that I could easily remove the oil pan and inspect that "floating oil pump intake screen", and see what years of neglect have done in the lower part of the engine. Today I checked again, and see that it is a huge undertaking to remove the oil pan. It looks like the front axle is a part of the oil pan, and the axle has to be removed to take the oil pan off. Do you agree that oil pan removal is too much of a job just to inspect the oil pump screen? Another quick thought......would it make sense to inject about a cup of engine oil into the top of the valve cover prior to running her, just to ensure some oil to the top bearings "if" there is clogging in the oil lines going to the upper areas of the engine? Thanks again. dwight
You have the engine and manual, right. Check to see if the gauge comes off the end of the oil galley, that is, at the opposite end from the pump and filter. Also, what does the book say is the oil pressure relief setting, could it be... 80PSI ? You have your answer from Melben, a Case master, you'd be a fool to ignore it. Kerosene? yep, that'll get your oil pressure down alright! What did the drain oil look like? did you open up the filter? Pull the valve cover off and check if there's gunk and it's getting oil if you're still not satisfied.
To follow-up on my prior comment about the oil pan being very hard to get off, here are a couple pics: Is it as hard as it looks to remove the oil pan? (Dont laugh too hard over that 8 penny nail used as a cotter pin on the steering linkage)
Delmer.....Yep, I have the manual, shop manual, and parts book. The oil line going up to the oil pressure gauge comes off the opposite side of the engine as that of the oil filter and pump. Here is a pic: I could not find an illustration of that side of the engine in the manuals, but it looks like the oil pressure gauge line comes off the long oil gallery you mentioned. The only thing I could find regarding the oil pressure relief setting was this......Load at 1.44 inches = 18-19lbs; Oil Pressure = 50-75 psi The drain oil was black as the darkest coal from the deepest mines of West Virginia. Out of curiosity, I will go cut open the oil filter now and inspect the "muk". OK.....sounds like a good idea to pull off the valve cover and see if the oil flows up there. Youre right.....Melben the Case master thinks all will be fine, and that is some huge relief. But some futher tinkering may expose other issues, and the old saying "a stitch in time saves nine"......in this case, it could save an elderly 188 diesel engine. (So, the idea of pouring kerosene down the valve cover hatch is a no-no???)
Delmer, you persuaded me to do a most challenging task, one which a mechanic could learn to enjoy quite well........the science/art of cutting an old oil filter in half, perhaps better called "Oil Filter Autopsy". Here are the remains of the dead carcass, the poor ole Fram PH8A has seen a very hard life: Now, I am no mortician or autopsy expert, but at least there was no gooey, grease-like sludge in the filter. Bascially just real thick, black, dirty oil. What is your expert advice based on this Oil Filter Autopsy?
Two ways to inspect the paper for junk. Cut a section of pleats out that is at least two inches wide and enough pleats to make 1/2"-1", put that stack of pleats into the vice and squeeze fairly hard. Open up, stretch out the paper and look for metal particles (but not the size of the hacksaw filings, sorry, should have mentioned not to use a hacksaw) or other garbage. Other method, cut out a section of the filter, rinse it in a can with a half cup of gas, repeat with clean gas, let paper dry and look for garbage, pour off excess gas, rinse particles in the bottom of the can with a few more ounces of clean gas, pour off and check particles for anything unusual, in this case small flakes of non magnetic shiny metal/bearing. There WILL be some metal, paint, sand, rust, etc. Just not too much. A rough measurement of the oil condition is to drop a piece on some paper, new or relatively clean oil will spread out into an even oil spot. Really gunked up oil will leave a dark spot of dirt in the middle and a clean oily outer circle where the oil soaks out from the drop. That won't work on the oil that comes out of the filter, that's full of everything that fell out of the filter.
Delmer.......man, you are GOOD! You tha man, as they used to say. You taught me something new about the art of "Oil Filter Autopsy". I had no clue that anyone ever took the time to do this, but apparently you and some others at this site have never left a stone unturned. If you dont use a sawz-all or hack saw, how do you cut open the oil filter can? Maybe use a grinder on the end to burn thru the thin metal wall, and be sure not to analyze the paper filter on the end? Box cutter?.....higher risk of having an accident, and someone doing the autopsy on me, and not the filter. I like the oil spot technique....interesting. Also, as a method to see if the bearings are wearing or other metallic wear/tear. Maybe we can carry the process one step farther......use a Gas Chromotograph to get an exact count on all the various chemicals/elements in the filter.......and who knows in my case, as we might get some DNA from Jimmy Hoffa floating around in that old oil.
Well, a real oil sample test is barely $10 so there's not much point in re inventing the wheel. I don't cut open every filter, just the suspicious ones. There is a special tool (picture a big rolling cutting wheel tubing cutter) for cutting open filters. I use a pair of aviation snips usually, punch a hole and cut spiral out from there. Not perfect, but that's what's handy. Edit: I'll admit to flushing an engine with kerosene or diesel once or twice, just don't run it that way. Pour 4 gallons through the engine with the plug out and draining into a clean bucket. Repeat until there's no more dirt in the bottom of the bucket.
OK, so you do have a special tool kit for performing "Oil Filter Autopsies". Who knows, someday universities may be offering degrees in this.....B.S, Engine & Oil Autopsy Engineering. Sign me up. Glad you gave a thumbs-up on the kerosene idea.....I may give this a try to try to flush out all the crapola. I started another thread on "how to remove the oil pan". Im interested in seeing what the best way is to access the oil pan.....i would love to get my hands on that oil pump pick-up screen, as I bet it is partially clogged.
Hey Tinkerer! Thers the photo that says you nailed it! Oil pressure gauge sensor location. Good Luck 68 Case 580B! I'm about to put a gauge on my 74 580B. Just has the light right now.
JBP>>>>Yep, I "nailed it" alright. Shoot, that nail was probably put there 30 years ago.....better than the original cotter pin. good luck mounting the new gauge.
Probably a waste of texting but I will mention anyway. I once installed a new oil filter in a 1983 Pontiac that caused the oil pressure gauge to be sluggish. Would take a long time to raise and to drop. Replaced it with an OEM one and gauge was back to normal.
Deon......good point.....it would not hurt trying a new filter to see what happens (and if no change, I can just save the first one in a container for the next oil change). But in my mind, if the oil filter is defective and is restricting the oil flow, then this should lower the oil pressure....but who knows......
Would it not be a bit more simple to rush down to the parts store and pick up a new gauge and screw it into the block were the old one was attached to . I think this will give you an idea if it is gauge related or not . My bet is on a weak gauge .
Bill.....Yes, you are right. I hope to give that a try later today. I will reply back with the results.
Melben, You sound very knowledgeable in these engines. I have rebuilt the engine in my case 350B cat. All new pistons, liners,etc. followed the book to the tee, and clearances as well. Not my first engine. I put it in and fired it up and ran like a top, but it is carrying over 100 psi oil pressure, 30 wt oil in a 70 degree shop. After operating temp. 85 psi at a idle. I had a carquest oil filter on, and switched to a case and blew the gasket out twice. It will achieve that oil pressure just cranking it with the starter and not starting it? It is oiling the rocker arm shaft properly, the oil galley plug in the front with the #60 hole in it for idler hub is in. Has a new after market oil pump, is it likely to have bypass stuck completely? Tried three manual gauges in two locations. Have any advice or me? I am going to put the old pump bak on it.
You did not say but I assume the engine is a diesel, that engine will normally have 75-80 lbs cold but should stay there and not depend on engine rpm, you obviously have a problem with the relief valve in the pump body, it is located behind the cotter pin in the boss that sticks out on the pump, Remove the cotter, cap and spring and there should be a free moving plunger that dumps excess oil back to sump. If it was a used pump it is possible that someone added washers to try to compensate for worn bearings allowing the pressure to drop, which does nothing. Since you have the old pump you could disassemble both and compare parts. If the plunger is stuck shut in the new pump oft times a piece of wood dowel tapered to wedge in it will help to remove it.. Keep us posted.
Thank you, and it is a diesel, I took the old pump apart and there were no shims, and the valve is free, and the free spring length is on spec, also the spec for clearance between the back of gear, and front of body is good. I believe the old pump was not the original to the machine. I am going to pull the oil pan and the aftermarket pump off today, and will let you know. I have never encountered this high when just cranking the engine over! Joddy
Sounds like something simple with the new pump, sounds like it's doing its job well, just find the problem with that relief. as much as I dislike it the oem people are not going to support the 50 year old engines and aftermarket will be our supplier.
Thanks, I took the pan off and the pressure relief valve out, and it is free and not sticky, not scoured or scratched? I am about out of options, so I am going to pull new pump off and take it apart and see if they forgot to drill the actual relief galley or something. If you have any thoughts, let me know. Thank you. Joddy
Sounds like you have an excellent concept of what's going on there, are the springs about equal in tension, are the plungers the same diameter and drilled as deep where the spring seats, is there anything that would alter the compressed height of the rv springing? Excellent plan to check the internal porting of the relief valve passages. When assembling the parts and pressing them into position to put the rv cotter pin in do they feel the same pressure between the two pumps?
The only big thing I see is the diameter of the relief hole where the oil is bypassed back in to the pump cavity is noticeably smaller. The old pump bypass valve itself, is heavier walled, the spring in the new pump is a little stiffer. Also the cap on the cotter pin end for the spring has a hole in it, where the new pump is a solid tight cap. Maybe the older one when relieving, allows oil out that end as well? The whole engine is oiling very well and no shortage of oil up in the cam area and crank when I removed the pan. This is putting my knowledge to a severe test! Thanks for your input. I put the old pump back on and will give it a try, will let you know.
I would be tempted to put the old spring and cap into the new pump. I would think that the undrilled plug would allow oil to be trapped behind the plunger building pressure there that would add to the spring tension rendering the relief valve useless, that oil has to be able to free flow as any leakage would fill the area if the cap fit tight enough to keep it full. If you are curious it wouldn;t be hard to do.
Let me know if you got my last reply please, it is in regard to what I have now, 75 psi cranking engine with injectors out to ease cranking it over.
It seems I did not get your last post, if the pressure is an improvement I'd put the injs in and start it, sounds like it is controlled somewhat now as you said it pegged the gage cranking before. How did you assemble it. 75 lbs is fine for that engine cold oil, that is what my 188 runs idling. I believe the unvented plug was the issue as I stated before.
Thanks for the reply, I put the old spring and cap with the hole in it, into the new pump. When I cranked it over, both gauges I have on it in two locations went to 75 psi and stopped there. Previously it would go past 100 psi and peg the gauge out. I believe this should be ok in my mind. I will get it back together and fire it up, and hope all is good. I agree with you as to the solid cap made making a hydraulic lock and preventing the other end to relief. Thank you so much for your advice, and will let you know what happens when I start it. But it appears that it is opening at 75 psi like the book says. Have a nice evening. Joddy in Alaska
This is a follow-up regarding the oil pressure concern I had in my 580 CK. I removed the valve cover and watched the oil pumping up and lubing this area, so the galleries were not clogged. I also put a "T" in the oil line and added another oil pressure gauge to see how close it reads compared to the old Case gauge. Pics: New gauge installed under dash, and with engine idling, it is reading around 60-65 lbs, compared to the Case gauge reading over 80psi: So, as Melben said, it is normal for these engines to run at a high level (75-80). Based on this single test I made, the Case gauges might be reading a bit on the high side.
Good job there, I have never had any problems with the Case OEM gage but possibly the gage may have been stressed a bit without a relief, any way, I guess we all learn as we go. I have a Turkish made water pump on my 830 Case AG tractor and it has served well for probably 10 yrs now. I do not like the fact that OEM is so expensive and in future years OEM is going to dry up so aftermarket will be the norm. I guess that anyone using the pump like yours will have to check that plug for a hole. Good luck with your project! Mel