I was just wondering a while back when was the last year caterpillar machines was still non electronic. This new machines has way too much electronics because if there is a electronic failure then you must get a guy from caterpillar to come and fix it although you are a mechanic. No hard feelings to the people who like electronics.
Kind of a question with no right answer. What machines? What application? Most equipment started using electronics over 20-25 years ago. So if you're looking for a skid steer to plow your driveway a couple times in winter then something from the 90s/early 2000s will be fine. Trying to be productive and make a living with a 20 year old excavator is a whole different story. Sure you don't have as much electrical to go wrong but you've got something that's worn out and is going to cost you big in other ways.
you don’t always need a cat tech to come fix it. Some machines will give you a code through the display and nowadays there are plenty of options to plug into a machine without calling the dealer. Electronics are not the end of the world and they are not going away. Might as well learn how to work with them rather than fight them.
Your problem is that it was so long ago you’re talking about back into the 80s and a lot of that stuff is fairly worn out. Parts availability is also hit or miss especially in these times. Most customers find it hard to spend more money in repairs than the machine is worth and that’s what you are frequently going to have to do to do.
I’m all in. We can totally do this. Disco balls, bell bottoms, 10k D6’s, 235B’s, 13B loaders, we can drive to the job in our square bodies, listen to Waylon Jennings 8 track cassettes. Put margarine on our Wonder bread toast. Date ladies with hairy nether-regions.
Sounds like Heaven
You lost me at hairy nether regions.
Ankles and arm pits I think.
I'm down, minus the last bit.
I've yet to run across one my age that fits that last description. We where talking about trading the other day and I said there no fur anywhere no more.........
Pew!
Traping not trading dang auto correct
They like there polar bears in alaska dont they
I think that crap started coming in around the mid 90's?
The Cat 3126, introduced in 1997, was Caterpillars first electronically-controlled engine. I don't mind electronics, but they don't like dust, mud, heat, severe vibration and rough treatment - which is the treatment that most construction equipment gets. Plus, some of the electronic stuff comes with factory glitches. Nephew bought a new Cat 140M grader in 2014 and it wasn't long before it wouldn't go over 9kmh, no matter what he tried. Cat dealer tried to fix it, they worked on it for 2 weeks with no success. The dealer ended up flying in a Caterpillar design engineer from the U.S. to Australia, and he went to work on it and found software glitches whereby the multiple ECU's in the grader weren't "talking to each other". He had to recode some of the programming in the ECU's, as I understand. He got it working good, finally, but I hate to think what it cost Cat to fix.
If the machine has a radio in it and it has a cassette deck it's non electronic Cat
The thing not to like about electronics in machines or? Is the top secret black boxes that control everything. Unlike the normal old shop manuals of the old days to say 1980's, they would show how to work on every detailed aspect of the machine. Now there is nothing on how to fix a multi thousand dollar master control black box, nor are many folks allowed to even have computer access to them. That is the main huge problem with electronics in anything nowadays, no matter what the device is. The old Heatkit days are gone.
I get annoyed when you purchase a code reader and it says there's no fault codes! - even though the machine/engine/vehicle is not performing as it should! Then you find that ECU's don't record all faults, only the ones they've been programmed to find! I bought a new luxury Ford car in mid-1990. It had climate control! - woo-hoo! Dial up the temperature, and the cabin got to that preselected temperature and stayed there. Then, just before the warranty ran out, the climate control/air conditioning stopped working. Took it into the Ford dealership and the service manager delighted in showing me how if you pressed multiple buttons at the same time on the controls, the CC went into "self-diagnosis" mode and broke up the circuitry into 10 different sections, and then tested them all, and produced the code for the fault! So I said, "Show me!" - and he pressed all the buttons for the self-test - and it came up with "No fault found" - and he got quite upset that it wouldn't work! So he said, "We'll have to run it through the workshop and go into this in depth!". So he did, and I got the car back - with the CC working - and I said, "So, you found the fault?". "Oh yes", he said, "It was a dirty fuse on the back of the A/C compressor!" I drove around the rest of the day, and within 2 hrs, the CC had stopped working again. So I took it back again. The workshop set to on it again, and I got the car back, and the CC was working again. I said to the manager, "So you really did find the fault, this time around?" And he replied, "Yes, it was the microprocessor (the ECU) for the climate control that had failed. The ECU can test the circuitry, but they can't test themselves, once they've failed!" One of the biggest failings I have noticed with vast levels of electronics in machinery, is an increase in fires caused by electrical faults. When they start to burn with an electrical fault, they're usually a total write-off.
I have been working on mostly trucks but some equipment since electronics started showing up. There were some growing pains in the beginning but nowadays ECM and electronic component failures are rare. Engine sensors fail occasionally and Allison transmission TCU's seem to give trouble once in a while. The biggest cause of electronic problems is bad connections and rubbed and broken wires. From what I have seen most mechanics start at the wrong end of the "trouble shooting tree" or flow chart.
A friend owns a 5 tonne Hino truck with a dry pan body. He hauls mattresses and foam with it. He bought the truck new, about 3 years ago. He was driving down a local freeway when the truck engine just stopped dead. He managed to coast to an exit, where he was able to park and call a tow truck. The tow truck delivered the Hino to the local Hino dealer, and they got to work on it, and diagnosed a major fault in the engine ECU wiring. However, they could not find the wiring fault! It took them THREE days to find that there was a BROKEN wire to the ECU, right in the MIDDLE of the huge wiring harness, that runs across the chassis under the radiator. No-one could tell my buddy what had caused the wiring break, that was right in the centre of a big bunch of wires. The harness had never been damaged, or even hit in any manner. It was decided that the harness wire must have incurred a fault during its manufacture, and the manufacturing fault was not picked up during the manufacturing/QC process. The Hino dealer had to replace the whole section of wiring harness, and it took several more days to acquire the replacement section of wiring harness.
I am the electrical and electronics troubleshooting guy at our shop. A lot of times the trees we use are flawed and will lead you past the right answer easily and right into replacing ECMs and components. Or to a dead end so the average mechanic just starts guessing. It also doesn’t help when the foreman who has never professionally wrenched starts telling you to “just replace this” or “just replace that”. The service info I see and use on a daily basis is NOT written to help a mechanic it’s written by fifteen engineers who want to show the others how much more nerdy they are. Every service manual should go to a veteran mechanic for vetting and clarification and telling the nerds to put needed specs or info right into that instructions vs sending them on a scavenger hunt for it.
Plus with multiplex wiring and sam modules thrown in the picture it's another set of issues. What I've found {at least with the equipment I work on} is failure of so many different areas one doesn't communicate to the other because of harness issues. And guess what there's a bulletin/recall for that problem. Freightliner has had since the beginning of the Cascadia over a 100 recalls all due to electrical. One of our drivers wanted a extra set of LED turn signal lights installed on the bottom side of his mirrors on a 2022 KW T990. I told the owner forget it, you can't just patch into any wire that's flashing. It's multiplex with sam, there is a port for accessories like that. I didn't have the time or the schematic to do it. It went to KW--Disassemble the dash, both doors, mirrors, run all the wire and hide it------------$1,550.00 for labor for two extra lights. Stupid.
The US EPA stuff started in 1996 for off highway engines but the electronic fuel injection wasn't really required until Tier 4 Interim in the mid 2000s. That's basically where the ultra high pressure fuel systems known as common rail came into broad use. Electronic machine controls started showing up in the late eighties with Komatsu and Hitachi excavators. All that actually started with the Scandinavians at Accurman experimenting with it in the early eighties. All the big name manufacturers put self diagnostic software in the machines but then keep secret the special things needed for access to those menus. I've always felt that to be unfair and short sighted on the manufacturers' part and that is why I put together the video programs to show people how to access those secret handshakes. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9ZtvgWG-EtmGZhvtMeBMEQ
Seems to me I have had more electrical problems with Cat than others that had to be fixed by them. Especially when the machines were somewhat new.
There is some churn in the industry about electrical connectors. It is another example of engineering from catalogs. It seems the dominant one right now is generally known as Deutz or Bosch connectors. I've heard other being called Weather Tight. I found this site on the web saying there are only a few manufacturers of connectors. You might find it interesting. https://www.bisinfotech.com/top-10-automotive-connectors-manufacturers-in-the-world/ I have seen other makes and names of connectors on machines made in Japan and will note that one machine might use several different manufacturers products. Wiring harnesses in general seem to be getting better all the time is sealing out weather and associated corrosion.
If it ain’t Deutsch or Ampseal it ain’t worth a damn. The cheaper automotive grade connectors and the high density tiny pin ECM connectors, that’s all pure garbage. Especially the white plastic connectors.
The Japanese, with their anal attention to detail, generally manufacture the best wiring harness connectors. They go to great lengths to ensure multiple seals on connector joins, and tight wire sealing where the wires enter the connector. In my neck of the woods, sun damage is something that damages a lot of harness connectors, the plastics are not durable enough to resist the strong UV light. Deutsch connectors are one of the most durable. By far the single greatest physical problem with electrics though, is wiring not being routed safely (avoiding sharp edges), or not being secured properly - preferably at 6 inch intervals. And the major reasons why wiring and connectors end up producing problems, is when a mechanic works on a machine or truck, and doesn't replace and secure the wiring and harnesses, as they came from the factory. You don't see wiring like spaghetti in aircraft, it's routed and secured to ensure not the slightest chance of any movement or damage from chafing.
Unless it happens to be a new generation Great Dane refer/van trailer. A ten year old can do a better job.
I do my best to route and secure harnesses but a major issue with them is that the manufacturers sure do like to run them stupidly. Slicing zip ties in tight areas is no fun and trying to resecure them can be a real pain in the butt. Also when the service diagram does not show the routing of the harness it can make for difficult times.
Well one place to never use a zip tie--ABS cables to sensors attached to air lines to air chambers. Every time brakes are energized the hoses/airlines do swell very slightly, if cable zip ties are used and installed too tight the added air psi will over time break the wire inside of ABS cables. There is a special clip for attaching cables to air lines.
What the manufacturers do is run the wires, then install the parts that go in front of it.
Whatever makes assy costs lowest, makes sale price lower, makes it attractive to the buyer. Mechanic gets paid by the hour to do whatever he has to do. Buyer/owner pays the mechanic.
In my experience, harnesses are designed by the manufacturer, blue printed and then sent out for bids to sub contractors to assemble. What I have seen was an assembly board printed showing the actual length and color codes of the wires. All the wires are then laid out on the board and the harness connectors attached at one end. the loom was then applied and the harness connectors installed on the open end. When the machine is built I've seen the harnesses installed on the frames and then the components installed. It makes it a real pain when brackets and mounts are placed over the top of said harnesses and you get an electrical fire some years later.
Yep and it sucks. One time I had to unbolt and move the hydraulic and fuel tanks to install an optional harness on a new excavator.
One of the biggest problems with cat harnesses is the rubber dipped metal clamps they use to secure major harnesses to the frame. The rubber wears off from vibration and the clamp cuts into the harness like a knife. Sometimes I think they’d be better off without those clamps. I have been known to re engineer a few harness clamps when I come across a bad one.
makes me think of 2 different machines. #1 is all the cat 521 bunchers. So flammable that insurance companies won’t offer a policy due to a harness under the cab I’m told. I’ve only ever seen the aftermath. #2 was the barko 240b. Barko would outsource the harnesses like they outsource everything else. Had a random code that I can’t remember. Chased it forever and when I called barko for some help they told me that plug #1234 has 2 blue wires right next to each other in a plug. Swap them in the plug and bingo. Problem solved. They always seems to know about these issues but never issued a service bulletin.
Either that or the oil/grease deteriorates the rubber.
In the 70's, I owned an Australian-built International cabover, tandem-drive truck - an ACCO DF1840 (these were nicknamed "Butterbox" ACCO's due to their squared-off cab). That truck had one of the best wiring harnesses ever - every single wire was not only colour-coded - IH also printed a number on each wire, so you could trace every wire, no matter where it was! The numbers were repeated close together, along the whole length of the wire. This sure made life easy - although no electronics, made it even easier! I'm guessing all IH trucks of that era followed the same wiring design? or was it just an Australian IH initiative?
Then there's the Mercedes Unimog where every dang wire is white and most of the numbers are hard to read. Not that it mattered because there's next to zero support for them here anyways.
Pete is that way. For years and years Pete used a standard chassis harness. #241 was always there, it was a wire run for temp sender on a auxiliary gear box. Those who knew about would use it for extra lights, PTO warning and so on. #242 was a auxiliary spare wire used for many things, air dryer element, back up lights what ever. But one thing until 1986 backup lights were not standard equipment, had to order it.
Let's bring back quarter glass windows. I really miss that triangle.
One of my biggest gripes on connectors is trying to figure how they come apart. Just about every other connector is a new design. Then add in the dust that has settled in around the plastic bits to prevent them from moving the correct amount and the fact you can't directly see said connector, or if its in plain sight I can't get my head in the correct spot to see it through my trifocals and the connectors come apart in an improper manner.
Agree-the type with silly secondary red lock.
Oh this burns me up and it’s always one that you have to wiggle into a tight space, feel around 10 other items and can barely put your fingertips on And the service manual says “oh test 2 of the 12 wires in it” as well.
Never mind when it’s 10 degrees out and you know the catch is gonna break just looking at it. I usually warm them up a bit with a lighter now after breaking about 100 of them.
FYI……over here in the UK,a number of brand spanking new pre electronic machines have been pulled out of a barn after the owner died.I believe they are to be sold on,possibly of at auction. They are literally brand new. Amongst the find is a D6D,955L,977L,235B and a D8K.
I happened to be working on a Hitachi Zaxis excavator yesterday (one of the originals, before the dash 3). A lot less electronics than something built in 2022 but I'd be suprised if that machine would make it a whole week of productive work without something breaking on it.
I just put a couple hundred hours on the boss's clapped out JD 490E that he's had forever. Other then the lights and wiper not working because of the missing soft buttons on the console and a blown fuse for the pump controller that made it bog down when using a function, it never missed a beat. And then there's the almost new Cat 316 that pushed DEF into the wiring harness, requiring replacement, fortunately on Cat's dime. I think car, truck, tractor and equipment shows in 50 years are still gonna be what is shown now. I have a hard time imagining anyone restoring a 2022 anything in 50 years.
I might want to restore this one . I bought it new in 1977 ,a whole 8400$ Can. with a canopy.
sorry to get a bit off track, i guess i do have a bit of Cat stuff waiting in the line up of dreamland projects. The old grader needs engine work and it has no hint of electronic guidance on it.
In 50 years, if we haven't devolved into some crazy thing I don't recognize, there will be aftermarket boxes available to make the Rube Goldberg junk run simply. They are already waiting in the wings, the EPA has to beat them back with a stick, but if they ever get their legs chopped off, things can get a whole lot better quickly when the aftermarket is allowed to step up. A lot of the restrictions on progress are artificial.
you guy's ain't lived till you've worked on one of these, will turn the nicest, politest non swearing mechanic into the devil. I hope it makes a return someday.
As a rule I don't touch automotive. I'll begrudgingly fix my own vehicles but that's because I'm not about to pay a shop $180+ per hour to do what I'm capable of doing, even though there's about a million other things I'd rather do.
I have a semi retired car mechanic who has seen everything, I turn to him whenever I have auto troubles if I won't be able to fix it in my shop quickly. For instance resealing HPOP on a 7.3 Powerstroke, check engine light on an '89 351, he still has the electronic contraption to read the codes. Yes I know you can get blink codes but so much is pattern failures and knowing what to do about it, it just makes sense to take it to someone who has seen it all before.
Truck Shop - I guess you know that FIAT is a 4-letter word, and it stands for "Fix It Again, Tony!"?
and all this time I thought it meant Feeble Italian Attempt at Transportation.......