So I’m thinking more into the about what is the next piece of equipment for my company. I have my excavator and my skid steer and honestly I think my next piece of equipment will be a roller. My logic for this would be a good support machine for the two and good on driveways and other projects even if it doesn’t do the main work it adds value
Dependes on your work focus. Pads, driveways, parking areas it makes sense. They are expensive to rent and rain days can screw up a rent period.
X2. CSu how much compaction work do you have? You can get a roller attachment for your skid steer that works pretty well for what it is. Might want to look at attachments for your exc. and skid to broaden your services. Attachments are cheaper to buy and insure and don't have another engine to maintain. Just bought a plate compactor for our new 305. That and the little hammer for our 305's I bought a couple of years ago have more than paid for themselves.
Basically how I saw it
Do a lot of driveways and parking lot expansions but I’ll definitely look into the skid steer attachment
A walk behind may be a better option or a plate compactor for the mini-ex. It depends on what you can find. A small ride on might be good. A decent used one might be less expensive than a new one for your skid steer. If you're doing gravel driveways they will pack anyway. I'd guess name brand vibratory rollers for a skid steer are quite expensive. Steer clear of the imports they sell at Ritchie Bros. Have read they aren't built very well and don't last long.
My third piece of equipment after the skid and mini ex was a 40,000lb excavator. Best thing I ever did . . .
I think every business is the same its very hard to figure out what money would be wisely spent on.
Depends on what OP is doing. A new 73" Cat roller attachment is $15K as advertised on my dealers site. $15K will buy a used double drum asphalt roller, used trench roller or a very well used smooth drum/tire roller. However that 825B for $15K would make a great HEF repair thread.. $15K used compactors From my experience of buying used trench rollers and running them - don't. We have 2 in order to keep one running. Seriously thinking of sending the 2 used ones to auction and buy a new one. A new Wacker is $33K and worth it IMO. One thing to remember about a used roller - from the very 1st hour of operation they are shaking themselves to death. The older with more hours, the more shaken and less stirred they are.
There is nothing "cheap" when it comes to compactors. I didn't realize decent used walk behinds are so expensive. It might be a better option to just rent a compactor when needed since it sounds like they are higher maintenance than other equipment and don't typically last as long.
Bit of a jump in size
I wonder what my car dealer would quote me at for one. Or if I’d even get a phone call back
I’ve seen those little wacker rollers brand new is like 20k so there is that
I guess it depends on how busy you are where you need a compactor.
fair enough
As per the original question, my first two pieces of equipment were a skid steer and a 4wd backhoe, third was a LGP 6 way dozer. It allows me to build roads, driveways, pads, clear land, spread topsoil, spread stone, and finish grade yards and slopes way faster than any of the guys with just a skid/ctl and mini ex. Despite what many think a large ctl is not the same as a lgp dozer for dirt work. The dozer is just faster, more efficient, and can work slopes that a ctl would never dream of. Yes a ctl will get there eventually, but being able to do a good job fast is where the money is. As for compaction, when building pads, roads, pond dams, etc I pull a sheeps foot roller with the dozer or a large farm tractor. Maybe not as handy as a ride on compactor, but way less maintenance and far cheaper to purchase. I’ve never found a need for a smooth drum roller for the type of work I do. A plate compactor yes, for patios and retaining walls, but never needed a roller.
Its really odd trying to figure out what a business needs or will use alot. I haul scrap iron . I needed a 20 foot gooseneck trailer . I borrowed the money and got one one of the best things I ever bought . Years went buy I think I need a 30' or longer trailer . I see a lot for sale that are good buys but I also could use a bigger truck. I buy a truck then trailer prices go up and supply gos down and I cant find one for a good price. Then I find a place to haul to that is closer so it isn't as important that I haul every thing I can on one load. The bigger truck has been useful and paid its way but I really could use a better smaller truck now. I steal have my eyes open for a trailer but for what they are going for I don't know if it would be money wise to buy one. Its strange how things change . Money is made when you own your own business and buy something that is used a lot.
FWIW - X2 - This.
X3 Anybody who thinks a CTL is a dozer either doesn't know how to use a dozer, or has never used on at all.
As far as your next piece of equipment goes, I'd say (and...I'm reminding myself of this as much as I am others...) as fun as it is to get a new piece of equipment, don't overlook your dump truck/haul truck and trailer. If you can't get your equipment to the jobsite, it won't do you any good. Take a hard look at your truck and trailer, and make sure they are up to the task.
I looked into used pull type sheepsfoot packers. They were in the $10-15K range as well. I've seen older ride on compactors in the same price range. Even wobbly wheel packers are are up there in price. What are cheap are older ride on wobbly wheel packers. I'd be worried about tipping one of those over. If I get more interest in the oval track, I think a combo unit with a drum at the front and multiple tires at the back would be a good machine.
You'd be amazed at the number of guys I've had tell me their CTL will out do my dozer in anything dirt related. Its mostly the home builder and GC types, I'm betting few of them have ever run a dozer. They think that because their CTL has 10-40 more HP that directly correlates to pushing power and productivity. I think the dozer also just looks 'slow' to them as they are darting around like a frantic rabbit on their CTL.
Love our 279D's and use them almost daily for all sorts of utility and light grading work however when it's time to grade or bulk dirt the D3 is hand and shoulders above both of them combined. Even the '04 D5G will outwork either one of them in that situation. CTL's have their place no doubt but they are not a replacement for a small dozer for ones doing "dozer" work.
I don't know how prices are in our area vs yours, but I bought a pull type single drum sheepsfoot roller in very good condition this spring for ~$1500. I see lots of very usable double drum units for under $5K, $7K for a nice one.
I think it depends a lot on how much room you have to maneuver. I also think dozers have a longer learning curve because you can't see exactly where the cutting edge is like on a CTL or skid steer. CTL's and skid steers are great when you have to move the dumped piles of topsoil because the truck can't dump it right where it's needed.
I think the cheapest pull type I've seen was $8K but it was damaged on one end, I think from filling with water and freezing.
I have a tilt deck and a dump trailer and a f250 along with a 2500 so I jump back and fourth. I’m primarily I wanna say a landscaper who adventures into other projects more frequently then I thought I would.
I’d definitely be interested in trying a dozer be a learning curve
Is your D3 a original D3 or this new weird thing cat has going on with numbers on the machines
I would say a 953 track loader or dump truck. Your clearing projects can get bigger and your scope of work can increase. Demo is easier, tree removal and larger dirt jobs are faster. I have used a dozer a lot when they are sitting on job site's. For big earth moving they have there place but for smaller sites you can get by with out it for now. Getting a 953 and dump truck goes hand in hand.
The problem with a crawler is maintenance costs. To buy one in good shape with good undercarriage you're going to spend $20K+ and probably more like $30K. Then you need a bigger truck and trailer to haul it. Now you're over $50K! You need to be doing some bigger commercial jobs to justify a crawler dozer or loader in my opinion.
Oh, no, lots more money than that. At least twice that. There is plenty enough money in residential work to justify 100k, or 300k.
His question is hard to answer really for anyone else to answer, we do not know his abilities or his desires. You can do the work he listed in his first post without a roller. Just as you can become an erosion control contractor without a trencher since he has a mini ex. I did not see if he has a CTL or a skid steer. If he does not have a wheeled skid steer he could add one of those to help build his driveways. He needs to figure out if he is going to stay in the landscaper type of work or if he is going to add more services. Maybe he could use a rockhound to plant sod? How does he see himself in 5 years doing what... Do you have a grapple bucket to pick up logs yet? As far as making his company BIGGER and having the ability to step into larger work a 953 is the way to go. There are plenty of machines here in the east that are around 30k. It will be a defining moment for his company because he will be able to do work that every other so called grader/ contractor can't do that has exactly what he has, a bobcat and a mini ex. He could also rent one if he found a larger job. Are they putting in a lot of house sites in his area, 53s rule the roost in that department. But in my experience every machine I have purchased has paid for itself over and over. You might not think it but a simple Wood-Mizer sawmill has saved me more than 100k in cost of lumber. Every concrete slab, every driveway we form is from lumber I cut from trees I was paid to remove. And I still charge retail for the materials except it costs us about 1.00 per board. During covid we build a house using just rough cut no shortages of lumber for me. A 953 helps me get the logs... so much faster. I have been thinking of purchasing a new 70K mill for the write off then I think the old one still works so whats the point? On a completely different note, pulp-wood prices have tanked due to the hurricane. I heard they were lucky to get 1.00 per ton right now.
Next Gen with GPS.
I’ve thought about the dump truck more but at the same time insurance is a killer and having a driver. A 953 would be nice to have but I’m not sure I wanna go that large of a company.
I haven’t seen much next gen dozers around here
My woodmizer sawmill more than paid for itself in the first few months, in addition to excavating I build barns and fencing. On the ideal job we clear the land, put in roads, fencing, etc, set the mill up on site and use the logs from the trees we cleared to build barns and sheds. Customers really like the local/sustainable aspect of it and I make a far greater profit margin vs buying store bought lumber. I also use it a lot just around my farm, in 2019 I built a 24x48 pole barn, wood siding on three sides, open front, built my own trusses, total out of pocket cost was $1800. Only thing I purchased was the pressure treated round poles, pressure treated 2x12s for the bottom band and the tin for the roof.
You can find a pretty nice, older small dozer with lots of life left in it for $20-30K around here. If you buy something decent and only put 200-300hrs a year on it, it will last for long time. That's about how many hours a year I put on mine, and it paid for itself very quickly. With that being said, I don't just do "dozer work" by the hour, instead use it to complete turn key jobs that I bid. This goes back to my first post about being able to do very good quality work and do it fast, that's where the money is.
Those that live in fear do not move ahead. One good custom house site will pay for a used 953. One job. Here lately mine have been lonely wondering when they will roar back to life. I have spent years now it seems in a motor grader. Sooner or later he will get a call for work he can't do then he will have the light bulb go off. Buying a roller is absolutely a waste of capital. He can work with out it. I have never owned one and a trench roller would be better for behind walls and smaller area. His roller will not pay for itself quickly, he could use the money to make more money with a tool that will expand his services. I can and do work with out one. I think of all the jobs where you can not get a roller on site or use one safely. Maybe an attachment on a skid steer but maybe the skid can do it slowly in small lifts without it. I bring gravel to compaction at grade all the time. You need water and tires to pack it in. Most commercial jobs are just sealing off the pad by the time they follow me up with a roller. We check grade in our tire tracks. It takes 5 to 8 times working an area over to get it right. The big rollers will tighten it up on not well layed gab. If it has been hit with a water truck enough the grade does not even change with a roller. I can do the same with a heavy wheeled skid steer. Have used one for over 20 years building concrete pads.
Stuff is crazy expensive. They already have 4 of these, and bought 2 more this spring. https://www.constructioncomplete.com/cr-7-ccd-2-0-reversible-soil-compactor-by-weber-mt.html
That's pretty darn cool.
does that grader have automatic grade control with lasers?
Without knowing the types of jobs the OP is looking to do it's hard to recommend a used crawler. Just because a used crawler worked out for someone else doesn't mean it will work out for the OP. If he buys an older used hydrostatic machine in the $30K and under range is a real crap shoot. Something goes wrong with the hydrostat it could cost $10K or more to repair. I think a good used machine with good undercarriage is going to be over $30K. It could very well cost $100K or more to get set up with reliable equipment. That's a big chunk of money. Sometimes it's better to stay smaller and specialize than try to take on anything that comes up. Also if the economy tanks you don't want to be left with big payments.
Yes. That machine is decked out with high tech features. It is an older machine that I can work on myself running a cummings 4bt with a nice powerful drive unit. All 4 rear tires pull. There is lots of maintenance and you must know your machine and its condition in order to have accuracy. It has dual laser receivers. It has a rotation sensor, tilt sensor and cross slope sensor which allows it to run off of just one side if the other side goes out. It can grade flat with a laser or use a total station and grade off of an as built file we program on-site or we can use a CAD file from the site designer. We would check the main site file for correct drainage before we grade. On site I will shoot and record curb and guttter and drains heights to ensure that water will leave a site once payment is installed. It will hold a 1/4" up or down accuracy depending on the size of the stone in the base. In 2D, I follow up soil cement crews to do final trim work and finally with a laser that can slope, I can grade 1% or 2% fall into the dock aprons or truck courts for correct drainage. The total station will allow me to grade contours in so called 3d grading. The limiting factor typically being the blade with or if direction changes (falls both ways) in the middle of the blade in the program. Grading 3d is a learned skill because you must build a grade file that the machine can follow, since the blade does not bend. It is amazing technology. Gravel is different depending on the quarries it comes from and the wetness of the product ordered. The main site contractors are fighting compaction every day, attempting to keep good material under the building pads. They are constantly drying dirt, looking for good dirt or adding moisture to the dirt in order to get it to pack. Sheeps foot rollers, cat compactors, vibratory rollers are used to get the dirt correct. They move lots of dirt. Completely different animal than say a small driveway or building type contractor. https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/compactors/soil-compactors.html If I were a main site guy or a paving contractor, I would absolutely have a large roller or two. I don't want to make it sound like they are pointless. In the last few years water trucks have been harder to get than rollers and there is a market for having both. I would also have a roller if I were responsible for sealing the gravel off. Almost all sites have rollers and water trucks to help me work. Depending on the size of the area and what is going on we will get a roller going midway thru the work to make sure final compaction height is correct based on my grade height. Anyone watching the fight tonight?
JMHO, every job I do that needs dirt moved where I need to make a choice on CTL vs. Dozer, ninety-nine times out of one hundred, I base the decision on production vs. mobilization time, and whichever wins is what gets used. Most times I have both anyway, but there are those times. Completely agree that a CTL is not a dozer, but every job is different. I can't begin to put a figure on the number of times I had a dozer and wished I had a skidder onsite, and vice-versa. Just tools in a toolbox.
We have a guy using a 100hp ctl to build drill rig locations for us instead of a d8 type of dozer, and he has ran dozers before and got us as well. His opinion, takes 3 times longer but it uses less fuel, around 20/day instead of 100, and the ctl can be hauled with a pickup at 12,000# and the insurance is extremely cheaper. Now what I say is the ctl is better as his bill is $5,000, a dozer bill is $8,000 to $30,000. The ctl he is renting is a Deere 333 or something with the dozer blade for $2225 a week, that setup can be financed for that much a month. I'm not sure of dozer costs but I know it's a lot more plus the semi.