So, when is a machine deemed too old to be repairable? I am finding out that some, if not all, equipment dealers are putting limits on how long to make parts available. I realize there have to be limits to what manufacturers and dealers can/should do in this respect, yet what are we contractors supposed to do? The mindset is twofold. One, this will require contractors to keep equipment updated by being required to buy newer equipment, and two, the cost of keeping parts for the volumes of machines/models could be prohibitive. Yet, as with myself, many cannot afford to invest a couple of million in equipment as a smaller contractor. Also, many of these "older" machines are still very productive and solid. Just a thot from a dirt and drainage guy......
In some places the EPA gets to decide what is too old.
If you are an old iron nut like me, never. But then, my livelihood does not depend on them.
I was the voice of doom and gloom back in the late 80's and all through the 90's as we began to see electronics become totally integrated into engine, pump, transmission control systems. I got laughed at a lot, but CAT especially has made millions providing spares to the secondary and even third and fourth level markets. In my area there are many D9G's and 988B's working in rock pits and such, the owners love them and consider them in many ways superior to the latest and greatest. Farmers and loggers love to buy used machines and keep them running for decades as a useful part of their operations. So.... what do we tell the guy that bought that nice 10 or 15 year old dozer or loader at an auction when he discovers it was sold because one of the computer modules which is no longer available anywhere goes south when it gets hot, or the main wiring harness has some untraceable fault or faulty plug connector and the manufacturer has gone out of business? Metal parts can be made, or substituted, there's usually a way. With limited populations and no access to the specifications and software, who will bother to manufacture replacement ECM's and PCM's, and TCM's and etc.??? I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but we already have numerous stories of manufacturers going under or merging, or buying certain models from another manufacturer under contract and then obsoleting those models, making them orphan children. The more technical machines become, the higher the performance, the higher the hydraulic pressures, the more special the mettalurgy, the more buyers would be wise to either buy from the biggest most established manufacturers or hold on to the reliable and lovable old machines we can still repair without needing an EE and an internet connection to plug into. Don't get me wrong, I love technology.... when it works. But the more complex you make any machine, the more likely it is to develop multiple faults, and error codes may show up that lead you far astray from what is really happening. Cheers, :soapbox
I could'nt agree with you more lantraxco, that's why any machine with halve decent hours pre computers and tec still bring good money,in some cases what you paid for them. At least you can fix em with a roll of spanners and couple of screwdrivers. Bill.
In some cases your clients dictate the age of your iron. For some of the gas well work they wanted to see nothing older than 5 years if I remember right. Personally its more of a decision on what shape the machine is in and what I need it to do. Sometimes its hard to justify late model iron for something that you don't use a lot but either cannot rent or cannot afford to rent, so you keep an old b*****d behind the barn for when you need it.
That is so true. Our company put some old Cat 966C's on Iron Planet auction a year or so back, some with no tires, missing hyd. cylinders, engines partialy dissassembled sitting out in the weeds. I think the worst looking pile of what I would have thought of a scrap iron went for over $5,000. I can recall years ago we almost had to give away good running 966C's to local guy who used them for plowing snow in shopping malls.
It's the age of the internet. Back when you advertised in the local newspaper classifieds you just didn't get much action. Now the used parts yards can connect with anyone on the planet that needs a lift cylinder or steering gear for an old dinosaur machine, so the value of those "retired" machines actually has gone up because of the ability to connect with the market.
Five years? I think that's ridiculous. Some old machines have less downtime, for the reasons Lantraxco explained above.
Oh, I agree that its totally riduclous. While you always have shiny in the yard, the new stuff has more down time, and all the payments keep the profit down. That and with older stuff you can tell what kinda of contractor he is by his iron.
Lantraxco, you took the words right out of my mouth, I've been saying the same thing for decades as well, as for being too old, I'm thinking more like, can being too new be worse than too old? I know emissions are a big thing for computers, but some of this is ridiculous for electronics. I could type pages of problems I know of my customers have encountered with new equipment, from dozers, to combines, sprayers, tractors, pickups, you name it, they're all plagued with issues and headaches. I've asked for a long time, what is going to be left of those machines in twenty years, well we're finding out, nobody wants them, but good older models still can't be bought at any price, or are sold days before they are traded in, there's a waiting list from customers waiting and wanting the just before those computer generation machines, no matter what type it is, make or model.
A machine becomes to old after the owner looses interest in using it and it falls into disrepair . Then I show up & write the owner a check , hauler home & repair faults then put it back on a job . I hate the idea of circuit boards & computers telling equipment what to do .
The company I work for runs older equipment, if you maintain it and take care of it it will take care of you. For example we run a D9N and a D9R. The 9R has 39,000 frame hours, and has been maintained properly and will push alongside any other D9, no computer issues at all, and the guy that sine's my paycheck loves it!. The D9R, New by our standards is a good tractor but all it takes is a meaningless code to pop up and the downtime starts. The boss does not like that!....................We live in a disposable world now, the days of running a crawler crane for 40-50 years are over and the cost of replacing an ECM or PCM will decide the fate of a decent looking machine. MHO, Lee
I noticed that during the last great bust here in the oil patch that much of the heavy iron used to build roads and drill pads was returned to the leasers. These were all relative new machines. The oil and gas boys had deep pockets and were paying the big bucks to get the job done. Result was the cost of the wells skyrocketed, but that wasn't much of a problem for them for about five years. When the slow down came, a lot of that equipment ended up back at the dealer and then to the auction block. It simply made more sense to lease and let them fix it rather than invest in a shop and support equipment. Of course these methods didn't last forever, but for those that got in early it seemed to work well. All about timing I guess. As my machines approach their 35th birthdays, I often think about how nice a joy stick and well designed operator station would be. Then I think about how much I would have to work them to make the payments. Much better for me to just worry about how to keep them running and dependable instead of sweating the next job and getting paid on time.
The way I see the "too old" part is when parts are no longer readily available w/o having to go to a wrecking yard for antique bit'n'pieces.
I'm pretty sure it was our member surfer-joe who said here, "In 50 years, there will be more 100 year old machines working than there will be 50 year old machines working."
I've always figured it had to get about so bad, before things improved, I've also noticed that there are several manufacturers who have a rebuild program for older machines. Bring them in they'll go through them end to end and even put a new warranty on the components being rebuilt. I"m wondering why the companies would do this, then the usual reasons come along, first is, there's money in it, second people are requesting it as a service. I'm now wondering how long it take to kick in to the manufacturers those customers don't want their new machines for many reasons, and until those reasons are resolved, they won't ever want to buy and own them. I'm also thinking and have been told, there are enough of them that think this way, they are now catering to those people with the rebuild programs, while they work out the issues that are keeping those brand loyal, paying customers from buying their new machines, but change takes time.
I recently worked on a 6b that was in a bad state of repair. A stock broker bought it to prep a couple of 20 acre lots. This thing is rough. Transmission is slipping, track adjusters keep blowing out and the operation is ungodly. If the guy running the machine had four more arms he might be able to keep up! I know I am a young pup at almost 40 with fifteen years on the job and many more before swamping for my dad, but the new machines are so easy to use. Easy to work on with my computer and parts are in usually the next morning. I love seeing old equipment still running. When you have to wait weeks on parts, and it breaks every other day, it is time for an upgrade.
Ultimately, it's up to the operator. I've seen great equipment in great shape go to waste just because it's a little older and trades/operators demand the latest & greatest. I see new equipment breaking down just as much as the old stuff but the attitude is totally different. A new piece breaks down and it's "ah well, **** happens". Something old breaks down and it's, "get that old POS out of here, & I don't ever want to see it again".
It's is all about money! Right now the price of new is sky high and there aren't that many projects going that will support those kinds of payments long enough to recoup the costs. Good used equipment right now brings a premium but is getting hard to find. On the other side it is getting hard to find those kinds of people who have the knowledge and inclination to work on older iron. Time is another factor in rebuild scenarios. I know it's aggravating when a processor knocks a production machine off line. But the fix is usually a matter of days away. A rebuild on a mid size machine takes months and requires those hard to find personnel and lots of resources that many if not most businesses refuse to spend money on. The cost of parts is another factor. Basically the manufacturers have figured out to price the parts in terms of the labor to install it. The cost of a part plus the labor, is the cost of the exchange component with a warranty. Now pop all exchange parts in a machine, add your labor and you get nearly the cost of that new gee whiz monster with all the bells and whistles plus the warranties and government compliance factors that go with it. The final straw in the coffin holding the old iron, is the emissions controls. The government, in trying to help all, has determined that engines built prior to somewhere before 1998 are too dirty to run any more. By law the manufacturers cannot build any engines to take the place of anything built before those particular phase in time frames. In Washington State we have already seen government jobs that set limits for run time on jobs where non complying machines were used. The economy slowed the process some the issue isn't going away. We are in Tier 4 Final now. In our government employees continuing process of justifying their jobs, they have just about completed the requirements for Tier 5 and I'm sure are working on Tier 6. It won't be long before the requirements will require less pollution from a D9 than a person smoking a cigarette.
GOOD GOSH,NO, JOHN! You can't mention cigarettes! That'll really arouse the government leviathan! :beatsme :drinkup
I think who manufactured the machine has a huge impact on the years of service, I had always looked at cat as having high priced parts, until I started buying hitatchi parts and komatsu parts for 20 year old machines, i am amazed every time. However some of the cat parts for my 20 year machine have come way down over the years and had been pleasantly surprised. For some reason Mack trucks have a stronghold in the northeast, and guys will ask top dollar for an old 300Hp 6spd truck with the cab corner falling apart, and get it! The overseas market in Nigeria must be helping this as they love Mack's. The emissions piece is a huge concern, if you have a late 90s western star or Pete with a pre emission single turbo cat and an 18speed you can write your own price, but a 2006 you couldn't hardly give away. With that over the course of 20 years 2 operators can have a huge affect on the value and reliability of a machine.
the only reason I consider new machines is for lower fuel consumption in high hour applications. But I still try to keep the old stuff for trusty standby's and I plan on trading off the new wiz bang electronic bell's and whistles every couple years
At a show last year I'm staring into the cab of a new Cat or Deere loader [can't remember which] I said to the sales guy " what would I do if this wouldn't start some morning?" He said "call us, we'll plug the laptop in & figure it out" Sad that an average mechanic can't fix much anymore.
I don't really think this is true. You still need to look for horses not zebras when you hear hoofbeats. Too many times people plug in the laptop and spend time chasing momentary error codes instead of checking battery cables and clogged fuel filters. You do need to have a basic understanding of the electronic crap that's on there, though. I am enough of a luddite that it pisses me off when the problem is some electronic gadget that's on there just to make the machine do what the model before did without it.
One time I got into an argument with a boilermaker when he told me "New cranes are better." (This was not on a job site) He couldn't tell me the difference between a Manitowoc 222 and a Manitowoc 3900. But he was sure "new cranes are better because they have a computer" He couldn't tell me what the "computer" was for, he was just sure that it made the machine better. He was also sure the computer should ALWAYS be overridden by the operator. I asked him how that made sense, to have a "computer" (load moment indicator) but to override it all the time. He couldn't answer that one either.
Call them? Then you are at the dealer service manager's mercy. You'd be better off with an old 966C from the '70s.
You mean you don't "NEED" the system that is on our new 980K? The one that if you are running with the front wiper on and shift in to reverse the rear wiper comes on with out you struggling to reach that switch 8 inches from your right hand?
I think I posted this somewhere on this site but seems to fit the subject here. We have a 988H Cat for our main pit loader in the quarry. As will happen at times in digging shot rock a large rock fell off the bucket and hit the boom. Just hard enough to snap the 10mm bolts holding the tilt sensor and guard. Did no damage to the linkage or sensor. Figured that's an easy fix. Removed a couple broken bolts and straightened a slight bend in the guard. Once it was back together tried to use machine, nothing on the boom or tilt system would work. At that time we did not have access to Cat ET program. Called dealer and tech comes out and runs calibration on sensor and everything was working in about five minutes. Seems when the sensor was hit it rotated out of the "normal" range and the ECM went into panic mode and shut everything down. Why could not the ECM just forget what happened when key was turned off an go back to what was calibrated in when sensor was installed? Another of my pet-peeves is the "Trouble Codes" why can't the digital display just say "Number six injector coil amps too high" instead of some random looking numbers that you have to spend half an hour digging to find what they mean?
Back in the late 90's I got a call from a parts guy at another CAT dealer, his customer was a logger with a CAT excavator converted to a log loader. Membrane switch panel wore out, couldn't turn the window wipers on anymore. Wanted to replace the switch pad, right? Not sure why but somebody told him to call me when he couldn't figure it out and CAT was no help. Anyway, when you pushed the little bump on the switch panel, the module it was connected to sent a signal over a four wire harness back to the system computer, which probably had a meeting with the engine computer, to decide if they should allow you to have wipers or not. The computer sent the signal back to a relay next to the operator's right foot in the side panel there, about 18 inches below the switch, to turn on power to the wiper motor. Problem was, you can't buy the switch pad, you have to buy the display module it was part of... at the time over $700. Wow. I told them I would deny it if ever questioned buy my suggestion was to remove the relay and wire in a toggle switch between the power lead and the wiper motor wire. Sometimes engineers do things because they can, not because it's the sensible thing to do.
I suspect the answer to that is that if they did it that way, you wouldn't have as much need for Cat Support. Now, do you think those injectors are much better than mechanical ones? That, my friend, is the truest thing anybody ever put on the internet!!
lantrax is my new friend lantrax how is it we are all talking about the same thing and all pretty much feel the same way about how things are turning seems like for the worse but its still happening!!!!! just like that dc 70 that I cant find a sprocket for why were they aloud to do that!!!!!!!! how can you build a machine advertise how great it is than just quit RIPN
Because mechanics and small fleet owners aren't who the manufacturers listen to. (if they listen to anybody)
I'll just stick with my old Trojan, life is simple with it.................
I could tell you some stories about Trojan loaders, like when we got a new one and before we even so much as climed in the cab to look at it I was walking by it and noticed something on the ground by the front wheels. It was one of the bolts that hold the front axle to the frame. It had not come loose it was broken! One good thing about Trojans is they made almost none of the parts, they just got out parts cataloges and ordered off the shelf parts from who ever made them. So even now that they are not around you can usally find most anything you need some place.
We all know anything can & will break, but for a man to be able to figure it out & fix it without a computer chip telling him its broken to me is priceless. I spent 2 hours in my dentists chair the other day [owww] - He's telling me all about the computer that runs his new used Corvette - Can't even spin the tires, computer won't let it - Whats the reason for owning a Vette if you can't lite 'em up once & awhile? Might as well of bought a Yugo. I didn't tell him that, never a good idea to 'offend' your dentist. I probably bought half that Vette over the last 10 years.
what I enjoy the most is when all the warning lights come on and the new machine goes into limp mode. You're way out in the boonies so it's a $1000+ service call for the dealer to hook up his laptop and tell you that your serviceman over-filled the oil by a quart on the last service. That's what set off the alarms and crippled the machine........and of course something like that isn't covered by warranty.