I'm talking about the Cat certified rebuilds and others where they strip a machine down to bare frame and bring it back to new condition. Sometimes not in one complete session or as a whole. I've heard reference from the local Cat dealer it's only feasible on the large dozers, loaders, scrapers, mining shovels, mining trucks, etc. Rebuild cost was 75% of new. I don't have any $$ number experience when this becomes advantageous. The are other machines no longer manufactured or supported, that have a specific need, like Goodmans Wabco 252s, Piacentinni elevating scrapers, and others that are truly impressive restorations. Still earning their keep daily. These are refurbished "in house." I'm sure the economic feasibility of keeping machines going boils down to recovery of the repair costs with use . The mining, airline industries and military are excellent examples of machines with large frame hours. They keep rebuilding and rebuilding. The newest B-52 bomber in the US Airforce is a 1963 model. Yes they don't operate at a profit. The biggest killer I see is paying retail price plus sales tax on all replacement parts. I've heard comments from the farming side, a harvester sale doesn't make the dealership much money. The repair parts profits ice the cake.
IF you are paying full shop rates and going by the dealer's books, I don't see it panning out so well. Full rate parts plus labor would kill the profit on many such rebuilds.
Either do it On Your own Dime and Time or is NEVER worth it. Paying someone else shuts down the bargain. Unless speaking of Limited Production specialty machines as Mining trucks and shovels. Millions for new, a slight budgeted savings rebuilding so get a new machine for 2/3-3/4 the price yet is still a New Old machine. Military does it as paying personnel anyway.
Actually the Caterpillar certified rebuild is not a bad way to go. If you have a pre emissions machine such as A552 Feller buncher you can run it through and have a complete new rebuild that even includes a new serial number for about half the cost of a new one or less. Everything is new, windows, seat, seatbelts, seals, et cetera. Caterpillar financial will also finance it for you
IMO any machine that works 24/7 is worth rebuilding until the chassis and/or structures die. Anything else it's a case of individual preference, allied to considerations such as Hallback posted above.
Seems to me that there was a thread on here a few years ago about a fellow that had 2 D6s around the 2000 year range. He was thinking of 2 new machines and after the discussion here, he had both of his existing machines Certified Rebuilt including upgraded cabs, and bought one new one for what the two new ones would of cost. He was very happy and liked his rebuilt ones every bit as good as the new model when he followed up spme time later.
I believe there are three types of machinery owners(there are grey areas between each group). First are the exploiters(maybe there is a better term). They buy or rent a machine for a certain job with no intentions to keep it. They give it little or no maintenance. Everything is done on the cheap. When the job is done, the machine is send to the next unsuspecting owner. Next are the maintainers. They buy a new or used low hour machine fully intending to keep and maintain it until just before major repairs are needed. The maintenance is pretty good in the beginning, but as the hours increase toward the sell point, corners are cut to maintain low operating costs. The last group are the long haulers that plan to keep the machines for a high number of frame hours, rebuilding components several times. Businesses which really rack up annual hours. Large very expensive machines, or ones no longer built but fill a specific need for their situation.
I worked twelve years for the local Cat house and five years for the local Komatsu house and have never seen any dealer rebuild work out. The Cat house didn't do Cat certified rebuilds, only drive trains. The dealer will lose money every time on a certified. Cat puts in all the requirements, takes all the credit with the customer and only pays about 50% of the warranty costs. When things go wrong, its the dealer's fault. Cat doesn't take much of any responsibility on their exchange products and both the customer and the dealer have to fight over the scraps. You have to be part of something real big in order to make Caterpillar work with you on the rebuild programs. Wagner and maybe Holt have the horsepower to make that work. The smaller dealers have to pick which machines to do very carefully in order to make it work. Peterson seems to have done OK on a few 527 skidders. Komatsu never supported a rebuild program while I was there. If you wanted it done, you made your deal with the dealer. I was part of doing a couple of WA600 loggers and it did extend the frame lives. Those were custom machines though and no one else ever did them. Banks and finance companies are the other issue if you have to borrow the money in order to do the rebuild. They won't play ball unless you already have the money to pay for it and if that's the case why deal with them.
Cat certified rebuild program works and works well. As others mentioned there are different levels - component, power train, hyd, and full machine. The lions share done are powertrain as it makes the most sense. A cat certified power train is about 60% of new, PT plus Hyd is 75% and full machine (CCR) is 90-100%. Cat has their own finance option (Cat finance) that will finance these which helps with the problems John mentions above. They are built to be rebuilt so why not ? They are not throw away machines like some. What other OEM backs rebuild programs with warranty ? The most common Certifed power train rebuild warranty option is 3 year/5000 hr warranty. That’s as good or better than when the machine was new ! Dozers D6 and above all make sense. Loaders 966 is borderline but above can make sense. Any rigid frame haul truck, 740, 336 size HEX and above. Etc. But you can’t do one of each every few years and expect to be super profitable. It needs to be managed by the dealer properly. So why do the 5-10% of Cat certified rebuild customers do the full CCR ? Well who has a bullet proof basically brand new 2021 tier-3 980H ? No one cause you have to buy a 2021 tier-4 980M or 980 but with a CCR you can have that 2021 980H. And as well to John’s point the dealer doing the rebuild will profit off the labor to rebuild. Not Cat. So when warranty comes up or issues arise yes the dealer is expected to step up as they made profit on the labor. Cat and dealer make money on parts and dealer on labor so it’s a give take for everyone involved.
All great points unfortunately not every model can get a Cat Certified Rebuild. Most are (med and above size models) but not all. More are added every year. Cat has a list of eligible models. Forestry is a tough go as you know and aren’t included - and the fact Cat sold off the skidder and feller buncher line up they are not going to invest in Certified rebuild for them when they don’t make them anymore. Dealer rebuilds yes but not Cat. The good news I heard 568’s will soon be added by Cat. The program works and is taken serious by Cat which is why they only do the models that make sense and they can back (put their Cat Certified name on) - for the customer and their sake.
Our local dealer (NC Machinery) just did a 552.2 buncher. They will rebuild those but I suspect that will fade away.
This thread is very interesting to me. Years ago in my beginnings of a heavy equipment mechanic I worked for a outfit that specialized in rebuilding large mining equipment. I can’t tell you how many 777 and D11 I rebuilt. The company that I worked for farmed out all of the component builds to cat for warranty purposes. But cat couldn’t compete with them on the certified rebuilds. Not only could we build at lower cost but we also built them faster. The company I speak of is no longer in business. They got screwed over during all of the bank bailouts in the early 2000’s. I miss those days and certainly miss the mining industry. Maybe one day I will come full circle and get back into it.
Perfect. I stand corrected about Cat certified forestry rebuilds then.
It was more likely a dealer rebuild. I can ask around with some of my former colleagues. It is my understanding the work Peterson did with the 527 skidders was done without Cat support. big ben, do you work for Finning?
I know that Volvo offered the rebuild option through select dealers. It was a la carte like Big Ben mentioned above. I would say any large platform machine where your powerplant is pre emissions or no newer than tier III at best is worth the rebuild. The trade off for uptime has got to be worth it. I haven't experienced anything on the Komatsu side like this yet. But we've got a member doing a nice job with an excavator on the site right now.
I'm very much removed from the mines and other businesses that are candidates for certified rebuilds. None of this in SW Ohio. It seems with the right situation and members on a rebuild team, a concept like this is an alternative to our throw away society. I still don't see how it's economically viable on the private sector unless there is a program from the manufacturer to supply parts at less than retail price. What was the name of the company you worked for?
Hoss Equipment was the name of the company. I rank them as the best company that I worked for. The traveling and custom unique builds we did were fun. I remember once we took a 789 cat removed the bed and installed a hitch. Then made a low boy trailer capable of hauling 2 D11's with blades. I remember that when we tested it and drove it around the yard the ground pressure was so great that it broke a 60" water main. Nige, not sure if you were part of that operation. But we built that contraption for Drummond coal operations in Venezuela. Sorry for the thread hijacking.
Nothing to do with me....haven't worked on coal for over 40 years. But Drummond were (and still are) in Colombia not Venezuela. Not a million miles away from where I'm sitting right now co-incidentally. I've heard of Hoss Equipment. Never had anything to do with them though.
I thought I remembered in another thread some time back. You spoke of working for Drummond or with Drummond. And you are correct they are in Columbia. Venezuela was a different machine and different company. I must be getting old because everything I know and remember is mixing all together.
That was the last time I was on coal in Northern AL in the late 1970s. I worked alongside Drummond & their people back then when we were building draglines. I've also worked with a few ex-Drummond people since.
I've been to those mine sites in AL. And I seen the draglines you speak of. I'm about 25 years or so behind you. Of course by the time I got there the unions chased Drummond out of AL. And the mines were closed.
In 1980 i was working for a logging outfit that was able to take advantage of available resources and man power during the the economic downturn. We set up a first class shop with in house capability and man power to do full rebuilds on every thing from rigid frame logging trucks ,980 s ,D8s ,American log loaders to side winders and dozer boats. We had Detroit guys, Cat guys ,Machinists ,Heavy duty Mechanics and welders. We turned out good work , built innovative attachments and equipment. I think the bottom line was good for the company until operations were curtailed by other factors .
Certified rebuild seems like a good plan We have done a lot of in house rebuilds on small equipment like backhoes I just had a hydro shop do a full set of rams last year and we rehosed a complete machine for like 15 grand I can fo a pump engine and trans with a rebuild warranty for about 25 if we pull the components ourselves so my 446 backhoe can basically be rebuilt with a paint job and new seats for about 60 to 70 grand my cost of time included considering a new machine is 200k I think it's a good deal I have a friend that has done a 314 ex in stages did hoses rams and pump one year then motor and circle another year then under carriage pins and bushings the next year he has about 80 to 90 grand in the machine to rebuild it at 14k hours should be good for another 10k hours now at less than half of new granted there's no warranty but as far as money that's a win every day
I worked at a coal company where I would joke that we were rebuilding machines completely one year at a time. This year and engine, next year the tranny and torque, the year after the undercarriage and the year after that the hydraulics. Problem was that the breakdown rate on the machines never changed. Standard rule when I worked for the dealers was that you should pay no more than sixty five percent of new for a frame up and the machine had to last a minimum of that sixty five percent of that first life for that money. The problem was always the second part of that equation. Today the issue is moot. Unless you have the funds to do it on your own dime. You can't afford three profit margins unless your finished product profit margin is huge.
Utility I worked for, would buy equipment on a Five to seven year plan, run out regardless to the final year, review maintenance history and trade or continue operation Year to Year after that. First major component failure got repaired used slightly then machine sent to Dead Line to be sold off.
Something of note since this in the scraper thread csw a civil contractor here locally that went under 2 years ago cause they tried venturing out of there area of expertise But they had a shop downtown that rebuilt components in house they had another shop that would do major rebuild work on there equipment the biggest asset they had was if they had a catastrophic failure they had components rebuilt ready to go and down time was marginal because they didn't have to go to a dealer for said support unless in that instance it was convenient the cost control that comes out of that capability is vital in the dirt moving buissness For the most part in my buissness model I dont see the rebuilding or 2nd life as a downtime preventer except for major things like power train but i see it as a reinvestment in a machine that should do a simalar hour life at a cheaper cost you already really have the down time factored in if your playing the game this way yes it does take some pockets to pull it off but it's more profitable and can run on leaner margins should you require it The reverse side is and especially true for the small guys is that one machine is the only size in the fleet for that job there is no redundancy and in housing a mechanic that has the capabilities and tooling may be out of financial reach but the biggest driver is a dealer supported loaner machine to make the downtime a non factor take the loaner program out of the dealer and it make a whole lot more sense Other big drivers in rebuilding of any machine in the last 10 years is the technology progression at a point in the not so distant future the tech curve will flatten dramatically and the production efficiency will level off from one series to the next and that will start to change the game from what the market is today especially as the new machines become more reliable through tech progression
A lot of factors go into the rebuild of equipment that makes it financially viable. Places that have 24/7 operations will benefit more than the local dirt contractor. Big 24/7 operations like mining also plan in advance and have a plan of action. They usually have everything in place before they decommission a machine. And usually that machine is brought in before things are to roached. With careful planning and planned downtime it could be economically viable for anyone to rebuild. But if you think that you can just simply shutdown your machine and have a couple mechanics go through it. Then prepare to pay way more than what would justify the build and not see your machine back in action for a year. I have been part of a number of rebuilds. Most were successful and some were disasters. The disasters were poor planning and a scorched earth approach. But you must run the numbers and have someone that can deal shrewdly with the dealer or it will never work.