Hello All, As some of you know, I intend to purchase a backhoe in the next couple of months. I am seeing a lot of units with 5-7k hours on them. My question is: Where do I draw the line in my search? I mean, what is the life expectancy of a backhoe? Years ago, it was more related to the engine. Today, the engines are very good, and it seems as though they will last as long as many other parts on the machine. In the past, I have been told to stay away from anything that has over 3k hours. As I look this seems like low hours compared to some of the units I see. I do understand that the maintenance will have a great impact, as well as will the type of ground the unit was used on. The bottom line is I dont want to buy a dog, but I also dont want to exclude a machine that is potentially still in good shape because it has 5k hours on it. I am looking for a "good used" machine, not a fixer upper. I mean if a light is out or a hose is looking poor, I am ok. Put another way, I am looking to purchase a unit that I can put right to work with minimal work, not one I must fix up prior to using. On the same vein, if greased properly, when could I expect pins and bushing to become sloppy? I hope this makes sense to youall TIA
In my experience, hours are not the only factor. If you can find out a history on the machine they can tell more of a complete story. Some brands have a harder time with longevity also. Your best bet is to treat each machine on its own merits. I don't have issues with name brand units with 4-5k hours because the savings can more than pay for a repair or two. I know one gentleman who paid a pretty penny for a 4k hour JD with full service logs that was a former city utility district's, the operators are known to idle the machine and road it to and from, take lunch in the cab to have a/c etc.
I'm no expert but how I do it is like a math problem. We all know how to gauge a car/vehicle on miles. Do an hours to miles conversion. Average speed on car... 50 MPH Hours on machine ... 6000 6000 hours at 50 MPH = 300,000 miles Condition and maintenance is everything, especially as the hours get higher. It can vary but gives another reference.
Wulf202 & highwayghost, Thanks for the response. I do understand that maintenance and how it was used will dramatically change the condition. Most of the units that I am seeing for sale are for sale by a dealer. Unfortunately, with a dealer it is hard to get an accurate history or maintenance records. I would much prefer to purchase from an owner that has not pressure washed off the dirt and polished it up, but I also do not want to exclude some of the units being offered by dealers either...I do understand it is a gamble when buying used, but there is no way I could swing new.
I have a 30 year old ford tractor and the hour meter reads 1200 hrs and that machine is completely worn out. Probably has 6000 hrs in reality. I have a 20 year old backhoe and the hour meter reads 300. Newer machines have electronic hour meters that may be more reliable, but I do not ever trust an analog hour meter on a used machine.
JL Sargent, Good point...How many hours does a unit REALLY have on it. I have actually seen at least one backhoe that is for sale that states that the hour meter was replaced at XX hours. I am sure many are not as honest. Another reason why I like to purchase from an individual. They can usually provide documentation of maintenance and those documents usually have hours attached to them. I guess I should restate to include: When Looking at a Used Machine...How Many Actual Hours are Too Many
Maybe some dealers won't have service records. But just as many will have the entire history of machines (not just T/L/Bs) that they service.
What you are asking for is an amount of operation measured in time to form an expectation of the condition of a machine. The problem with your question is that you are assuming operational hours correlates to the condition, i.e. wear and tear. The facts of machinery condition actually don't have an actual link to time. One can form an expectation of condition given empirical measurements of age, miles driven or hours of operation. But condition can be changed. An engine can be repaired or replaced as can any other part of the machine. What does correlate to age, hours and distance though is price. Those parameters will determine a range of value which can be narrowed down by actual condition. So knowing the above, you can determine a range of what you can afford. Once you know that, now you can review the market data and be able to see the advertised machine prices and winnow out the machines with prices that just don't make sense. You have a selection process now and can pick the machines within a price range. When you start looking at them, you will begin to form expectations of condition that correspond to age and usage. I hope that makes sense.
This is one of those tough questions with no real good answer! Not saying the above posters are not right in what they have said but there are so many variables trying to make one answer fit all situations is not possible. One thing I would want to know is what is your skill level on maintaining and repairing equipment? Next if you are going to have someone else handle that work, do you have someone lined up who will be doing it? If you have someone who will be handling that end of the business I would defer to them to make the evaluation of any possible machines. If your go to repair guy is a die-hard Cat guy I would not want to stick him with having to repair and maintain say a JCB, or the other way around. Guess what I might be saying is hours are only one of the things to look at. I'd be more interested in support from manufacturers. For example if I needed say a skid-steer loader and had to choose between a high hour Case 1845C and a low hour machine with only one dealer around 75 miles away I would go for the Case. But then I'm partial to them as I spent many years keeping some of those running under very bad conditions in a stone quarry.
You may also want to consider how available parts/service are in your area because no matter what used machine you get it will eventually need some repair.Many repairs can be done by the average person with help from the good folks on HEF and parts for many repairs can be purchased on line, so geographic location is less important in cases like that.But in the unfortunate event you need to have your machine worked on by a shop it would be nice if that shop was as local as possible.In my case I have a large John Deere shop in town and I have ordered a few parts from them that were not readily available on line and once you develop a relationship with a local dealer they may be more willing to share info over the phone when you're looking for repair advice.
one thing more when unsure about the condition of a BH take your friendly dirt contractor with you for the price of a steak dinner he could tell you in 10 minutes more about the BH than you could working on it all winter long.ask me I know
Tinkerer, Thanks for the response. When I actually begin physically looking at the various pieces of equipment I will be sure to ask if maintenance records are available...even dealers. I just assumed they wouldnt have that info.
John C., Thanks for the reply. I do have a set amount of money that I am looking to spend. However, as I am looking in my "price range" I am seeing machines with as little as 3k hours, and at the same price point some with as many as 10k hours. My initial question was asked because I was wondering if I could just set a cutoff (say 5k hours) and look at units only with less than that. Knowing a little about mechanical things, I would assume that after a certain amount of time, even with the best of care metal will fatigue, pins will wear, transmissions will fail, etc. I also do understand that as I actually get closer to the actual purchase, there is no substitute for physically inspecting the actual machine. At this point I am trying to narrow down the machines that I do actually visit. None of the units I am seeing are real close to me, so, eliminating a 10 hour drive because a machine has too many hours may be helpful in my search...I hope that makes sense.
kshansen, Thanks for taking the time to respond. I am mechanically inclined and actually maintained equipment, including backhoes for many years for a local gas and electric utility. So, that being said, I will be the one doing the repairs and maintenance on the tractor once I get it. Additionally, I am currently focused on mostly John Deere and New Holland because there are dealerships for both within a half hour. I do agree, having a dealer close by to answer questions or purchase parts is important to me. I have been dealing with the New Holland dealer for many years, and they have not had a bit of problem giving me advice and saving me $. I am told the local Deere dealer is also good like that, but I do not have experience there, just word of mouth.
geminijo, Thanks for the post. A I shared with kshansen, I am mostly focused on John Deere and New Holland because of the close proximity to me. I really do not have any brand loyalty, although I currently own multiple New Holland CUTs that have always served me well.
chas357, Thanks for the post. The only flaw with your suggestion is that my local contractor, and friend is a Deere head...I mean, in his mind if it aint a Deere, it aint worth buying. I want to be more open minded and find the best value for the tasks I have, not just buy something because of brand.
Chas 357,That's exactly what I ended up doing and possibly avoided problems with a Ford 555 with a non functioning hour meter that had "around 1800 hrs." on it but looked very suspicious and a little beat up.I ended up with a Deere 310C that I purchased from a county shop on the Minnesota state auction site.It had a complete service record log along with all the PM events like fluid/filters plus a complete shop manual.It had 4970hrs when I got it and I ended up having to rebuild the shuttle at a little over 5050 hrs
sorry you mised the 555Ford deal,,,what glitters is not always gold,,,loving my 555 ford I'm just a old ford guy,,, only use it about 75 hours light work good luck
That's another point I'm not sure anyone has mentioned, not the "Ford" part but the amount of use one is planning for any machine they are looking to buy. What jimg984 is doing in that "75 hours", assuming he meant a year , might be how much someone else will be looking at before the end of this month! That could make a major difference in determining the machine to buy. I guess my opinion would be that hours are not as big a factor as to how a machine has been cared for over its life. I know the things that run up a big red flag for me are those like bent up sheet metal and broken glass. Even things like wiper blades with torn rubbers tell me someone has not cared for the machine. And the day to day care one puts into a machine can be many time more important that the numbers on some meter in the dash!
I couldn't agree more! If they will not spend the time and money on the obvious little things, the details, the pile of things that make something a POS, it makes you wonder how much of the important things did they not bother with too! Did they just use it or did they have some 'Pride in Ownership'?
kshansen & highwayghost, I 100% agree with what you are saying! The reason that I started this thread was to possibly get a gist of the life expectancy of a backhoe...Lets say they are expected to last ~8k hours before they really fall apart, even if well taken care of. I was planning to use an hour read as a way to whittle down the machines that I will put my eyes and hands on. I do understand that even with a low hour read, I need to do my due diligence on the inspection. When I do in fact inspect a machine, I will certainly look for the items that you both, and others address. What I am seeing is machines at or near the same price point with a wide range of hours, and was hoping to be able to eliminate some based on the hours. The thing is, many of these machines are over a hundred miles away, in multiple directions, and I cannot possibly look at them all...Somehow I don't feel like I am making this point appropriately. Does what I am saying make sense?
What you are not understanding is that there is no answer to your question. Every job is different, every machine owner is different, every machine coming out the factory door is different, every operator running a machine is different and every mechanic that services and repairs the machine is different. There are no magic numbers for anything on heavy equipment. If you want to find a deal, you got to get up and go find it!
Not sure what your budget is, but you can get some great deals on recent model former rental machines from seller 'bidadoo' on eBay. I've bought a lot of equipment from them.
John C, I guess you are correct. Thanks for your input. I guess this is not going to be an easy process.
Skata, Thanks for your response. I did look at bidadoo. They do have quite a bit of stuff. The backhoes that I saw on there were a little newer than I would like, which makes sense if they just came off of lease. I may give them a look see in a couple of years when I am looking to buy a midi excavator. Bidadoo sure does sell a lot, and has a lot of good reviews. Thanks again.
Just as an FYI. I could not find "bidadoo" on Ebay. I started searching and found bidadoo has a website. On ebay their name is bidadoo_auctions. Link to their ebay store. http://www.ebaystores.com/bidadooauctions Their website is here. https://www.bidadoo.com
I struggled with similar decisions, Swetz. I looked at a lot of different models, with many different hour ranges, and in a lot of locations. I was looking in Ohio and any of the surrounding states. For better or worse I found that there were several affordable options, in Michigan, so I found a day to head up that way. I'd narrowed my options down to only a few different places, then took a drive. I, potentially, bought on a whim a machine that looked like it was in decent shape for the money with hours that seemed reasonable. Unfortunately, I'm what a lot of folks here warn about and that is almost completely ignorant on the workings of heavy machinery. I didn't get the machine checked out by someone knowledgeable but I did play around in the dealers yard for a bit and everything seemed relatively tight and ok. At that point I started negotiating and bought the machine I found that I liked. I didn't go anywhere else to look at any others because things fell into place on this one in ways I was ok with. Now, I'm still ok with everything on the backhoe I bought other than it's fairly intimidating to me to consider making repairs on this thing as there is a ton I don't know or understand that well. We'll see how it goes. I'll likely get someone that knows what they are doing to come out and work on it when needed and hopefully I can respectfully watch over their shoulder to learn some stuff.
aighead, Thanks for the reply! I am getting my hands wrapped around the fact that I am going to have to invest some serious time into putting eyes and hands on the equipment prior to the purchase. I have some past experience fixing backhoes, so I do know understand the mechanics, and what to look for. Honestly, don't be intimidated...I have been reading hundreds of posts here and I can tell you that there are some top notch guys to help you when you do have to fix something. I must confess, I cannot believe the knowledge base, nor the willingness to share on this site...that said, if you break it, they will walk you through the fix...don't fret
A contractor here just bought an L 150 Volvo loader with a little over twenty seven thousand hours on it. besides the faded paint, the thing is mint. tight, smooth running, smooth shifting. It came from a peatmoss plant, one operator since it was new. must have taken great care of her. Like they said, you can't always tell by hours
Cutting edge, OMG...27k hours...LOL that is not in my search parameters, but it is a reminder that there are some high hour jewels out there. That said, they are making them better and better! Thanks for your post!
Amazing what people consider is “too many” hours. I was in a fab shop the other week looking at a couple of haul truck chassis that they were refurbing for one of their customers - not the first ones they’d rebuilt BTW, they’ve been doing it for years. Both chassis already had 60,000+ hours and after refurbing were expected to go at least another 40k...!! Basically on a backhoe IMHO so long as the chassis & structures are good everything else is bolt-on and can theoretically be rebuilt ad infinitum.
I have a 1992 Deere 310D that turned 10,000 hrs a couple months ago. It works perfectly and doesn’t burn any oil. I thought that was a lot of hours for it’s machine. While reading on this forum last year I came across an owner of same machine in South America with 26,000 hrs and used it daily for his work. I did write back to him to confirm it to be correct.
I was in the same boat I have never owned nor even used a BH before. I have had a JD 450C, a Cat D7 17A, a small AC grader. Now a Cat D5G XL and a Cat 931 track loader. I am going to sell the 931 as I can now use the 310SG which I just purchased. I studied long and hard on which brand and model BH I though would be best for me. Also long and hard on how old and also how many hours on what BH I mould buy. I did not one with too much electronics nor the latest emission standards on it. I decided on probably the 310 E or G series with something less than 4000 hours. I looked at all the Machinery trader, Craiglist and Ebay lists to see what the average prices for that type and hour were listed. I saw that a lot depended on the area of the country you were in dictated the price that was asked. I also wanted to see first hand any BH I would buy. I also went back through here researching problems and areas to be especially watchful of on BH's of those models. I found one within a 100 miles of where I am and looked at it and used it as much as my knowledge of BH's let me. I told them what I would give delivered plus fixing a minor problem I found on the BH and they accepted. It has around 3400 hours. Is a 310SG. It has no leaks anywhere. Everything works like it is supposed too. Does not make any strange sounds. Unless I missed something and as little as I use it should last as long as I do without any major problems. Thanks to all on here for their knowledge on all the different types of heavy equipment. I was a A&P aircraft mechanic for many years before retirement. I have done most of the repairs on the other machines I have owned except when it comes to the heavy weight wise stuff. So hopefully those years of experience have helped me on making this purchase. But machines are like a light bulb. Just because it worked the last time you flipped the switch doesn't mean it will the next time.
Don k, Thanks for the post! The John Deere 310SG is also on my list of backhoes. As I understand it, the 310SG uses a mechanical injection pump, but it does have some electronic controls. The E series is all mechanical with no electronic at all. I have a 410E on my list as well. Does your 310SG have a cab with heat and A/C? I would be very happy if I could pick up a unit like you describe for around $20 to 25k
No it does not have a cab or heat. I paid 29K for it. After looking online at numerous ones from this area it seemed to be a fair price for both the seller and myself. It has good tires, new batteries is not beat up and as stated before everything works and does not leak. I probably may have found a less expensive one but then again for this area maybe not. I am happy with it and that is all that counts.
Don k, That sounds great! I am not set on a cab, however, in the Pennsylvania area where my property is, it gets mighty cold in the winter...and I aint gettin any younger! Most tractors do have cabs round here though. Most do not seem to have AC, but most seem to have heat. It is good that it has good tires. Many of the units I am seeing have at least 2 that are questionable...and rubber on these machines isn't cheap. All in all, we are in a very similar situation in what you bought and what it cost and what I plan to buy and $ I will spend. Good luck...Something tells me you will have that machine for MANY years.
Swetz ; Don't even consider a machine without a cab.I guarantee you will regret it if you don't get one.
Tinkerer, I have read the same comments on here, but I have also read comments by others saying they don't want a cab and how the glass would be broken in the woods. I have also read how individuals like the feeling of not being isolated from the work, and that they can hear and see better. For me, I think I can justify the extra cost in my mind because of the fact that I really don't want to be in an unheated backhoe while pushing snow in the winter. I also like the idea of a cab because I have seen some that do not have a cab with gauges that cannot be read because of moisture...Then there is always the I really don't want a wet butt from sitting on a seat that is cracked and taking on water. Anyhow, almost all of the units that I have seen that are available locally do have a full cab, so by default I may not have a choice.
There was mention that some machines did not have a history file when looking to buy a newer machine. I feel if there is no history on file on a newer machine that smells fishy to me and I would stay away from it, or dig deeper, of course there can be a few legit reasons why no file history. Why I say this is because for so many years there are so many parts of the USA that are having huge flash floods, bad weather, etc... where a large number of heavy machines are being damaged and deemed as total losses by flood waters. and I'm sure many machines are being dragged out of flooded waters and sold at auction, and a good chance many are not disclosed as flood damaged, then they are cleaned up for resale. I can be wrong, but last that I remember if you move a machine from State to State this I believe is how you can loose the disclosure it was a total loss flood machine... I'm not sure if I'm correct on this, I know it use to happen with cars. I'm sure laws have changed where this is not an issue, but at least its a heads up when looking to buy a machine. Obviously the electrical system not working right is a huge red flag on being in a flood. Well, anyway I just figured to mention this.
Since there are no laws requiring a title or registration for property not operated on a highway, there is no way to determine if a machine was labeled a total loss and liquidated through an insurance policy. There are no disclosure laws concerning any heavy equipment that I know of. There are some items in the Uniform Commercial Code that can affect a franchised dealer if making false statements and some criminal laws concerning fraud. Machine history files are seldom part of a machine sale and many owners don't keep one anyway. As far as flood damage goes, I've been many places where machines are worked in deep water with little damage to anything. New machines with electronics and computers that are damaged by water intrusion are usually self explanatory and easy to see in an inspection. The key is an inspection by a knowledgable person.
I just learned a bunch of good information! thanks !
Swetz, I can tell you, sadly first hand, that full EROPS and the woods sometimes do not mix. I'll say that I WAS doing something ill-advised, but I broke the crap out of my back window while it was open and I was pushing a tree over. A big limb from presumably about 50 feet up broke off the tree and crashed through the window. It was not very cool. Now the window is plexiglass and debatably less safe than it was but I don't have the budget for a new piece of glass in there right now.
joeeye and John C, Thanks for the info...something else to look for. I have seen plenty of vehicles that went under in Sandy. I even tried to fix some before my company decided to just write them off as a loss. Anyhow, I did notice that every one had a sandy silty coating on things like computer brains. May have to remove a cover, but it would be worth a look to see if it was under. As stated, many of our backhoes were unaffected because the vitals were above the water line.
aighead, If you were buying all over again, would you still buy with a cab?
I can safely say there are many people alive today because a cab prevented a tree branch from injuring or killing them. I have worked many times through the years and saw the power a bent tree branch can release after clearing my cab. You have to see to believe how dangerous a dead tree branch can be when it breaks off over your head. You don't / won't know it happened until it hits the cab roof. A broken window glass is cheap insurance to prevent being struck.
I have a track loader but the ROPS has saved me a couple times. There's a reason forestry machines have heavy mesh in front of the windows. Tree's are unpredictable.
Tinkerer & Welder Dave, You make some excellent points & my application is a piece of property that is 99% wooded...So, at this point I would agree that a cab goes on the list of must haves. Thanks!
I would get another closed cab. There are a few drawbacks but I think the benefits outweigh them. My FIL advised an open ROPS mentioning it's a pain, particularly when getting in and out a lot, to have to open doors to get out and I understand that but it's not that big of a pain. I think a major benefit is it extends the usage season also, even if heat and a/c doesn't work it's much more reasonable to use when it starts getting cold out. I did notice, over this summer, that it'd be nice to hard wire a fan in (or maybe plug one into the cig. lighter hole that I think mine has) as even though you can open it up well sometimes the wind doesn't blow through that nicely and it gets sweaty. The only other drawback I see is keeping windows clean. The open cab does indeed get you more in tune with the machine and the work but I think you can adjust well with glass around. Also, I totally agree with Tinkerer that you won't know a branch above you fell until it hits. Similar to a sonic boom you don't expect... For me, in this instance, I saw the wooden rain of small dead tree parts, which I expected, then next thing I knew I hear a boom and I'm covered in glass. Uh, for what it's worth safety glass is nice and shatters well but will still slice you up, especially if it goes down a couple layers of shirt and jackets...
Most machines working in the woods around these parts have external mesh or something similar to protect glass from all but the largest impacts from falling vegetation. Sometimes a pain to clean windows, etc, with them fitted but if they prevent a glass breakage I guess they've paid for themselves.
As far as backhoes hours go I have a cat 416 c with 12 thousand hours and everything is pretty well factory the only thing that has been a big repair was beefing up the boom where it had a crack but that was a chronic problem of the c series A friend of mine has a 420 d with 10500 on it and the overall machine is in half the mechanical condition for multiple reasons Another friend has a 416 b with 30000 hours still original components like motor trans and boom the loader has had some cracks but I wont count that against it Know of a 410 j upwards of 13000 another with 9000 A backhoe is completely rebuild able as long as the frame is ok booms are easier to source than one would think even the swing tower is replaceable so you have to asses it on a case by case basis and you better learn what was the weak points of each series
aighead, Thanks for the feedback! I have fitted many fans in off road equipment over the years. They are no big deal. My biggest problem with them is that they generally rattle over time. They do have a cooling effect tho. The good news is that it usually doesn't get that hot in NE PA in the summer, especially in the woods.
Nige, After reading your comment I immediately googled bolt on protectors. I instantly saw what you were talking about, although the ones that popped up were for excavators. I am sure tho, with diligence I could find them for backhoes. I did get a visual of what you were talking about. That is something that can wait tho till I purchase my backhoe. At this point I am not sure of what brand or model I will choose. Thanks for some more learning!
AzIron, Thanks for your post...I am learning that these things really do last! It is hard to believe that we can put together a machine that holds together with all the abuse for 10s of thousands of hours...I am not unhappy about this mind u...perhaps the one I purchase will outlast me (a good thing).
Anything lasts if it is treated the right way when it is operated, is operated within its designed limits, and is maintained correctly and in a timely fashion. As per AzIron's post #50 above I would imagine that the difference in machine condition between his 1st/3rd examples and the 2nd one is directly related to standards of operation & maintenance.
Nige, Trust me, I do get that some operators objective is to destroy equipment...I have been the guy that had to fix that stuff. The machine that I will eventually purchase will enjoy a great life. I have no reason to push the machine and I will definitely maintain it well. Hopefully it will last me a lifetime!
Operator abuse has a lot do with anything but timely maintenance seems to be the deciding factor and it starts as simple as grease a machine that is not greased religiously gets sloppy and the slop creates slack to hammer on pins or on rods or cause booms to crak While a tight machine can break and wear just the same sloppy machines accelerate wear even with good operators