Bobtail dump, Ford "385 Lima" engine at 370 cid. Year about 1979. Was working on truck to change the carburetor etc, doing some test drives ....almost back at the barn, noticed the (electric sending unit) oil pressure was reading zero. Shut truck down and replaced with a mechanical gage - pressure still zero. No knocking or other strange sounds. Removed mechanical gage and operated engine with the oil gage port open to the compartment, no oil comes out of the 1/4" pipe fitting! Dipstick shows oil level at full, drained oil and sure enough, a lot came out about 8 qts plus minus. Pan not damaged or dented. Pulled pan and pulled pump - distributor drive shaft stub shaft looks good. Removed pump for bench test and ran pump with drill, pumps a lot of oil. Oil delivery suction and screen to pump all look good. Bottom end of engine looks pretty good, no sediment in pan or sludge etc. Engine ran pretty decent and a lot better on starting with the new carb. ~ The sending unit is located at the upper surface of the block back by the firewall, just past the end of the intake manifold. Ran a soft wire down the hole to see if there was goo or whatever, found nothing but seemed like the wire went quite a long ways. Am wondering if there is a tube inside the engine to route oil to the sending unit port; could such a tube be broken. Found a factory manual for the truck and the engines, but the manual is for a 1981 and it shows the sending unit is located on the side of the block. But not this block as there is no such feature. Have no idea if this is the original block/engine.
I don't know, but I'll guess anyways. I doubt there's a tube inside the block, I've only seen the port at the end of the oil gallery. Stranger things have happened though... The next step I'd try is to pressurize the oil system, put the pump back in place, and either find a dummy shaft to turn the pump, or hook up a garden sprayer with a valve etc. You could try compressed air too, it would be a little less messy. One of those angles seems like the most straightforward way to see where the oil is going.
That is odd . If they don't have any oil pressure the engine will rattle pretty bad . We fired up a Ford 302 for the first time and none of the gauges were working . Engine sounded fine , then the Old Man said " wonder if it has oil pressure " ? I reached under & loosened the oil filter while it was running . " Yes ! It has good oil pressure and hand me a few shop rags " . LOL !
You can turn the oil pump with a drill and the right extension and socket. It's a hex shaft. How does the end of the distributor look?
A review of the manual for oil pump inspection leads to a decision to fully investigate the pump operation and also disassembly to see if maybe the bypass is malfunctioning etc. Search is on for the smoking gun. The distributor to oil pump drive shaft has no indication of demise. Distributor not pulled yet, that is also next to do.... Wanting to speculate the oil pump and or its bypass is the cause and a new pump is going to be the saving solution.
I would have pulled the distributor first, lol. Have you tried to turn the pump shaft with the oil pump removed? It goes into the bottom of the distributor drive gear, you should not be able to turn it.
I wouldn't rely on just a piece of wire.. Blast that sucker w/some shop air & see if it comes out the bottom.. If the distrib. runs the oil pump, there ya go.. Or u got some REALLY worn out bearings.. {doubtful}
You wouldn't by chance have bent a pushrod? That allows the lifter to pop out and lose all oil pressure.
I would imagine that would have shown itself as a really rough running engine. But it is plausible.
Had a 390FE block that happened to. For me it was the safety valve on the pump. It had opened up cold and got stuck. Oil was flowing, just no pressure. FWIW.
Found three bent pushrods. Intake manifold removal in process. Engine had sat for three years, thinking stuck valve or collapsed lifter opened up the lash and that’s the rest of the story. More info and pics to follow. Thank you to all comments about the pushrod and yes it did have a miss but only the one cylinder showed goofiness on the spark plug.
I have the opposite problem with a 440 chrysler sometimes . it`ll stick its relief valve and blow the filter off
just a reminder the push rods may be different lengths. so keep track where they come from.
Two of these on one bank and one on the other bank, all intakes. Progress to remove intake manifold ongoing. Thanks again for the good suggestions, who woulda thunk it! Now to figure out why the pushrods got bent. Motorhead associates adamant to boroscope the cylinders to determine if piston has contacted the valve....
Wow!!!, amazing engine still running that good with them bent up so much. ... makes you wonder if it even needs intake pushrods???
I'm still trying to get my head around the
Dammit Ronsii, you beat me.
I probably misread it from the beginning . My understanding was it lost oil pressure after installing a carburetor on the test drive ?
So I'm trying to figure out how the new carb could have caused the bending??? new carb let you rev it up more....
So many variables & situations a feller gets in to . Hard to say without being there in person ? Dropped a new carb set on the old Ford and it was happy .
Pushrods look almost as crooked as politicians and lawyers...
Pushrods are looking pretty straight
Grandpa nails another one.. Way ta GO.!!! {He's like the old dog in the corner.. nobody pays attention to him, until he barks. lol}.. Those rods look awful.. Whatcha put on there, a 650 double pumper?? Almost looks like somebody didn't set the valves correctly..?? OR it wouldn't start, {reason for new carb} & somebody hit it "quick-start"?? Glad u found "something."
This truck had a carburetor that constantly gave problems. Leaks, hard starting, flooding; and run-on after key off. Engine never did "purr". When idling, always had that sound of a miss but no shaking or shuddering. Once it got to running the miss faded away once the engine took a load and started pulling. Also know the truck was parked for three years (outside, but it doesnt rain here much). When it was restarted what with fresh fuel etc, the carb did the usual behavior, thus it was recently replaced with an aftermarket carb from NAPA. The new carb solved the old carb miseries including the terrible run on issues. The miss at idle indeed remained - but due to better overall performance, perhaps the "miss was dismissed". Never said to have been like a Singer LOL. A few short run tests in the neighborhood, then the oil pressure at zero condition was noticed just at the return to the shop. No driving/running since then, and now dis-assembled and this status report. ~~ As to the "how it ran" reports: Perhaps a cylinder with a shut valve results in a smooth consequence ... like these later model engines with cylinder deactivation? I wonder how it will run (pull) once the valve train is repaired and all the cylinders contribute? Am hoping the damage to the engine isn't enough to terminate the project ($$) as the local motorheads insist/recommend a boroscope inspection of the piston and flashlight test of the valves to determine if they appear bent. If the inspection shows the heads need to come off, some will say forgetaboutit. ~~~ Key Q: Just when did those pushrods get bent and how? A) Was it excessive lash from collapsed lifters (due to being parked) and once revved up the pushrod couldn't absorb the load from all that lost motion. This theory would maybe allow for 'save the pistons'. B) But if valves were stuck (from sitting), that also creates excessive lash and as well perhaps the piston did hit the valve. Valve that wouldn't close being source of excessive valve lash. C) Or, maybe the last driver ran the he11 out of it (way back in time, before it was parked) and he floated the valves on an overrev - keep this in mind: this truck didnt always have the Owner driving it. Engine has a governor and hopefully floating the valves on overrev isnt possible, but there is always the downshift for engine braking....hmmm. Will keep all ye posted on progress. Thanks vm for the assistance!
Just a thought off top of my head. If you have all the push rods out all the valves should be closed right? Why not just put some air pressure down in one cylinder at a time using a compression testing adapter or a home made tool from an oil spark plug? If there are bent valves you should hear it very clear in exhaust or intake. If there is a "slight" leak on one or two I might tap on the top of the valve a couple times while under pressure to make sure it's not just a bit of loose carbon that will burn off on the first good run! Also be careful when pressurizing cylinders as the engine will turn over if not right at top dead center or bottom dead center!
Dang it! wrote up a idea then some how lost it. Have to try one more time! Well that sucks! Retyped it a second time and then the original showed up. Maybe time to break for lunch and a cold barley soda! Hey I'm retired and on light duty besides do to hand surgery!
Computer issues? Lol. It posted. You still have time to edit the second one into oblivion.
I'm going to guess the valves were a little stuck from sitting, bent a little on startup, and bent more as it drove at higher RPM causing the oil issues and shut down. I'd think you'd notice 3 out of 8 not firing at all at idle. Unless they were well spaced? like every other one in the firing order. Pound them straight and see how it runs?
Well at least this screw-up was not as bad as another site I posted on and a reply got duplicated four or five times!
After setting so long the lifters pumped and didn't bleed, happens.
I would sooner think it was the carb that started to whole problem. Over fueled and then a backfire condition.
Unstable valve train/weak valve springs from being depressed in one position and already weak to begin with. Higher rpm coupled with thick oil and weak springs=bent push rods Pump-up is preload cancellation causing the rocker not to close by the same amount the preload is set at X rocker ratio. A lifter with a preload of .050 x rocker ratio when pump up occurs. FE blocks have a lifter tolerance of .050 to .150 for self adjustings lifters. This issue is not that common and not really rare with Ford FE and Mopar LA, R & RB engines with self adjusting valve train.
The intake manifold came off today and here is a pic of the valley, complete with three lifters out of their bores, coincides perfectly with the three bent pushrods. Zactly as predicted by Grandpa! The distributor remains stuck and some of the valves arent moving freely.
Yea look like you have some "lazy lifters" that decided to lay down for a nap! Thinking maybe time to pull heads.
Yes folks Grandpa is correct about the lifters popping out. But if those were well vanished lifters you wouldn't be able to remove them with vise gripes. And as for stuck valves those are stuck because there bent. That engine saw some high rpms that's how the lifters came out. Those lifters pumped and those are a sled fulcrum self adjusting design for the 385 family.
Since the engine has a governor, the only way to over-rev is a hearty downshift, yes? Local motorheads report more likely a Ford V8 will bend a pushrod compared to a Chevrolet, but I cant determine why this is would be so ....they say the ford valve train angle is more open whereas the chevrolet is less of an angle....Note: am not trying to pry the lid on the ford chevrolet debate LOL. Besides this is about medium duty truck engines, not Broncos or Mustangs or Camaros or pickups.. Is there any hope the intake valves are stuck simply due to varnish from say, old gasoline? Quite a few folks on the various assundry web pages commenting about how the gasoline 'paints' the intake valve and then 'glues it to the guide' and then the pushrods get bent either trying to move the valve or there is excessive lash. Soak of the intake valve(s) with the marvel mystery and/or the seafoam has just been started [to see if that will loosen the varnish]. ~ No boroscope inspection (yet) to report.
Worst thing could happen is you would have to buy a few more pushrods. I would give it a try before going deeper.
I think I might try soaking down the valve stems with what ever you like as a penetrating fluid and see if you can push down on the valve by hand or tap with a hammer to see if they seem to be opening and closing good. If that much seems good I would do as I suggested before and blow some air pressure into each cylinder to see if they hold air. Of course you would need to remove rockers or push rods from each one while doing this. It might not sound as high tech as a bore scope but that bore scope might not see a minor problem that air pressure will make very obvious!
Im with Birken,,, I'd spray it down, but would turn it over with the starter right the way you have it in the photo. You will be able to tell if the valves are sticking in the guides.
On a good note the inside looks pretty clean & tidy . No sludge or grit build up that I can see in the picture . We had to coax & wrestle with the stuck distributor on the Ford 302 project . Sprayed PB blaster and tapped around the base of it with a brass drift . She finally came loose . This is what it looked like after setting for 35 years .
The distributor remains stubborn and is regularly spritzed with penetrating oil. One of the stuck intake valves has been experimented with: the spring and seal were removed and the valve's keeper groove adorned with a ring of lockwire to preclude inadvertent drop. Some sort of a dam/funnel was placed at the guide and marvel or sim allowed to soak the stem, in three hours there was quite a bit of freedom. A length of sash cord was placed in the cylinder by way of the spark plug to hold the valve on the seat and the guide seal, spring, and retainer were installed. Two more to go that will hopefully "soak free". Will be nice if the distributor cooperates as well! TD25C: on the 302 pic, does distributor look like it may have left some part behind? We saw a youtube video where the guy tried to remove the distributor from a galaxy 500 and it resorted to the hammer and chisel. Noone wants to break this one as parts maybe scarce. As to the engine being pretty clean inside, with the mileage on the engine but moreso the time, perhaps it was rebuilt or freshened up could be why no oil consumption and no smoking in spite of the (now former) terrible carburetor.
That's CRAZY that thing actually RAN with little trouble while driving.!!! I would take EVERY SINGLE TAPPET apart & soak them in penetrating oil THEN reassemble in engine oil. OR just replace the dam things..
ha ha pumpguy.... sounds like you just talked yourself into new lifters...lmao,,, but I like the way ya think.
Yeah , that's looking from the back of the 302 . That's an oil galley plug just above the bellhousing . Be patient with the distributor & hopefully the penetrating lube will free things up where needed . We took our time with it as well , did not want to break it .
TD25C: Thanks for that illustration on the engine: The distributor remains stubbornly stuck, but air pressure testing the three cylinders having the bent pushrods shows good valve sealing, therefore maybe no bent valves. Status: Two more intake valves to "soak free" and the distributor to loosen, set of new pushrods obtained. How is this idea: With eight intake valves, there is likely one valve open and maybe two (but no more than two) at any time the engine stops. That leaves six valves that are closed, and it appears three of these stuck due to perhaps bad gasoline which had deposited varnish on the stem and then dried or cured to affix the valve in the closed position, upon startup, pushrods yielded and eventually lifters shot out of the bore showing low oil pressure at the dash. This is the theory being forwarded to explain these events. As to why other valves didnt stick open and maybe get a piston tap, there is no theory offered herein. Other than chance of luck. Like the song says, two out of three aint bad. Surmising the high rotating mass and mild cam timing allowed the engine to run with some cylinders resting and not missing terribly, also no load such as pulling a trailer or a full dump bed.
I had a long knock-down drag-out with a customer who would not accept my diagnosis (glad he was bull headed in this case) on a Ford 2.3 Pinto engine that had complete lack of compression in different cylinders at different times. I wanted to pull the head for a valve job, he said his buddy tested it and it was OK. Long story short, certain valves would stick slightly off the seat at random times and once we figured out the real problem (upper distributor bushing gone causing timing to jump all over the place) it ran fine on its own. This engine was run on propane or natural gas all its life, never saw a drop of gasoline. So moral of the story is that valves can fail to seat completely on an old engine which leads to failed tests, but it will run fine in real life. This engine has been running perfectly ever since, and that was 2+ years ago, and they run the snot out of it.
The last of the three valves were freed using the oil soaking method and a drill motor to spin the valve and work it in and out. The cylinder was filled with sash cord in lieu of the air pressure method. Could be the other five valves may also benefit from this cleaning process to remove the varnish or whatnot from the guide contact area. Is somewhat time consuming (or shall it be said to be tedious?) to place the sash cord in the cylinder, pull the springs, and remove the seal to allow the soaking of the valve stem. Distributor remains stuck in the block.
Sounds like you are making some progress! Glad to hear the cylinders with the bent push rods hold air so valves did not get hurt.
The balance of the 'free moving' [as opposed to stuck] intake valves (eg five of the eight) have now been completed what with the keepers, springs, and stem seal removed to allow the dissolver/cleaner to remove any incidental deposits on these valves. Valve(s) can be moved easily with no fear of dropping due to sash cord method, a small piece of tie wire is added to the groove for extra assurance LOL. MarvelMystery, SeaFoam and CRC are various products involved in this cleaning. Fyi two sash cords are being utilized which allows two cylinders to be accomplished at the similar time. As to the Distributor: remains stubborn refusing removal, but is always being "soaked". Set of new pushrods was purchased as well as gaskets - ready to re-assemble soon. Other observations: the solvent passes into the cylinder and then around the piston and drips below onto the floor indicating if this is done with the oil pan installed, perhaps a followup with an oil change may be in order if these solvent amounts are a concern. Please recall this story is about an engine with the pan removed. Summary: The old carburetor may have been part of the cause as it would create enrich conditions, leaky etc. Then there is the issue of the old gas from too long storage as well. Perhaps both contributed to the intake valve stem binding/seizing in the guide, like rust on a tightly fitted bolt I guess. * Morale is high with knowing the heads dont have to come off and associated big funds expended.
Engine has been started and runs well. Smooth w no miss. Oil pressure at idle w/o road testing shows around 70 psi using the new mechanical gage, much better than when the lifters had been displaced / jumped from their bores. Road testing next event. Notice from these pics the Project Schedule apparently included cleaning and beautification efforts. Distributor remains as found (stuck).
Yeah!!!, Fresh paint always helps things look and run better
Well at least it makes the customer feel much better! A guy I worked with many years back used to have his own truck repair shop for several years. One of the things he always made sure of when he rebuilt an engine was to paint the engine and put an extra heavy coat of paint on the exhaust manifold! He said the smell of the burning paint convinced the owner that something major had been done his engine!