D6C LGP 90B1849 engine 3306 44V8821 I am at the point to rebuild my FIP. I took it off the machine and send it to the only reliable shop her in Hawaii which is on another Island. Today I talked to the mechanic and he told me that he can not drive the pump, because it is to old; he is not equipped to run such an old pump. He would have priced me around $1500.- at the lower end. Called CAT and they told me for a rebuilt pump would be $2600.- Called Peterson in California; the mechanic told me between $2000-2500.- and turnover around 4 weeks. My question is if anybody here knows of a good, reliable shop where some good old-timers would lay on hand on that pump? And maybe also to a reasonable price and turnover time? Could be anyplace on the mainland, I would just ship it there. Here's a pic of the pump and also part# 5S7999 for pump housing and 7S8834 for governor group. Thanks a lot.
That injector pump dosent look like it should have a problem, how many hours has it been running ? very clean looking.
Don't be fooled just by a little bit of new paint on the outside, it's the inside which matters. Here the whole story to it: We own this machine since about 1.5 years. The meter on the engine reads 3340h which is for sure not true for a machine close to 40 years old. Somebody has put an electronic meter on the dash which reads 2800h, but this also doesn't help much. I don't really know the history of this machine but I could bet that the injection pump has never been serviced. Last January we had a catastrophic engine failure, probably due to overheating. We rebuilt the whole engine; new head, crank, cam, pistons, liners, basically internally everything new. Also got a new turbo. When we test run her she sounded ok and seemed to be fine. Put her back in the machine and started to use her. But when she heated up and was under load she made a lot of noise and was in lass than 10min over 200º. So I changed all the injectors, which helped a lot: the noise considerably got better, but its still there and I only hear it when I rev her up and put her under load. She still heats up to fast by doing just a little work with it and to me she has a lack of power. I put a new temperature gauge to be sure on that and inspected the whole cooling system, opened pump and radiator and inspected and cleaned. So the overheating is not coming from the cooling system. So the only thing left is the injection pump and my mechanic is also telling me to go for the pump; either rebuilt this one or replace it with another rebuilt one.
PJ, can I ask if you did the rebuild work on the engine yourself, the scroll type fuel pump is very robust with any faulty elements usualy causing a very easy to spot effect on the engine, when the engine failed due to the overheat what was the cause? and did this fault get sorted? to set the pump timing can take an effort plus a bit of know how unless you have the aux' drive plate to position it, when you inspected the cooling system did you strip out the oil cooler set for cleaning, finaly how did you manage to test run the engine out of frame, did you just spin it up set on timber and how did you fill the engine with coolant on this test run. this style of pump can rack up massive hours without any trouble. tctractors
http://oregonfuelinjection.com/ http://www.spokanediesel.net/ And Seattle Injector Co. (206) 623-1135 are all places I've had really good luck with. Not sure about your specific application though.
TC, I only helped with the rebuild, an experienced older mechanic did the job. To the engine failure: we were not 100% sure what caused it. One of the rod bearings ate so deep into the crank that it was not possible to salvage the crank. After taking everything apart, it became obvious that all the bearings were looking dull and something must have gotten wrong. The mechanic guessed it could have been an oil pump failure. After the rebuild and putting it back in the machine I inspected the temp gauge and found it to be faulty too (though at the moment I am not sure if my interpretation was right). This led to the assumption that it could also been that the engine had been overheated. Whatever it was, we think it also had an impact on the FIP. When we rebuilt the engine my mechanic knew how to reset the timing and also had the right timing tool to do so. I took the the upper and lower pan of the radiator and inspected all the cores; maybe 1 or 2 were clocked, all the others were clean. We ran the engine on a rack and for cooling we used flowing cold water and just had the system open.
Update: Just talked to our CAT dealer again and now they told me they don't make rebuilts of this pump anymore. I can get the internal parts for it but not a whole pump. So my only way to go is to service my pump at a good shop.
I would highly recommend Diesel Injection Service. Not knowing how they would handle Hawaii but it would be worth the call. They go out of there way on there own dime if there is an issue. http://www.dieselusa.com/dis.html
I would not bother with the injector pump just yet as I would hardly think its your run issue, I did ask you if the oil coolers had been stripped down and water cores cleaned? I would think your mechanic man would know the correct Con Rod index to the engine, you could ask him this question as the rods only face 1 way, the piston pin is not dead centre in the piston its just off set towards the oil filter side of the engine, the valve lift is .330 thou off the cam, I get an uneasy feeling when someone rebuilds an engine without finding and dealing with the cause of the failed unit, if he has the lock plate for the aux' drive perhapse he needs to re-establish the engine settings before you go any other direction, also strip out the coolers and remove every end fitting to check them, as the water will not travel into the block with these plugged up. tctractors p.s. if you have a muffler fitted, remove it and just fit a straight pipe to test the power under load, as the mufflers can fail inside.
Thanks TC, oil coolers have been stripped and cleaned also the radiator has been opened and cleaned. I am sure the engine is proper rebuilt. I was there at all the steps and could always confirm the right procedure. For pistons and con rods there is only one way to go in there. Also on the timing I am sure we are at the mark. I agree it's not so comforting not to know 100% why the engine failed, that's why I am so very cautious now with what's going on. My guess is just that the engine failure also affected the pump. With everything in place and running ok, it's just the last piece we did not put our hands on.
The con rods can be fitted about face and old time CAT men know to fit the number to the window, on the later engines they have a small cast mark that should only face the front, anyhow I still dont think its your injector pump spitting the dummy out as when the engine comes under load the injector pump only has a set loading on it that is not going to cause any clatter, if the pump is faulty it would struggle to start and run crap at low speed, this is just my thought and I am no mechanic. tctractors
X2 for ofi, a 3306 isn't that old in the grand scheme of things
sure you didn't time it 360 degrees out ??? Im with TC here; something is wrong with the timing. Those pumps give very little trouble.
Timing has been checked twice, but if necessary I will check it one more time
remember earlier in my life; never had a timing fixture plate [ sure it is the right plate u used ???] And I had to spill time the pump using dial indicator through the pre chamber hole. using piston travel measurement to know the engine timing. And the hand primer pump to get the exact fuel cutoff point for the plunger and barrel. Cat dealer in new Zealand, gough gough and hamer can test run the pump no problems, if you want to go down that road.
pj, all that iffy racket the engine is making would sort of have me take it all to bits again and start from an empty block, the 3306 is a great little unit, it could be a valve issue in the head as there is 7 sorts of valves for this engine alone plus the 333C valves it only needs a small margin for something to touch the piston top, was the lock plate for the 4"3/4 bore engine? I would spill time it myself if I had doubts on pump location, the best thing is to mark the pump drive gear before removing the crank and cam, lets hope you are right and the pump is a knacker?? tctractors
With the bolt in the flywheel method there is no mystery to TDC. The pump timing is dependent on the crankshaft and camshaft gear being in correct mesh with the timing marks. The pump gear is driven through an idler (no timing marks) so the pump has to be aligned using the timing plate fixture. If it doesn't couple in the right location the pump gear needs to be removed and relocated to where it does. #1 pump needs to be in the down position ready to rise when it is coupled together.
This timing fixture plate had been used in the past for the same type of engine; 100% it's the right one. You mean to send the pump to New Zealand? That would be quiet an expense. I found some places now on the mainland where they should be able to handle this type of pump. Thanks. pj
All the way down to the empty block when we were reassembling the engine, I was really praying to never have to see her inside guts again. So much work to pull the engine from the machine, strip her to bare bones and rebuild...what a pain. Don't misunderstand; I like to work on these machines but what I like much more is to work with these machines. With the valves I am not sure what you mean??? There are only intake and exhaust valves in the head and they are all the same. But anyway, the engine has a brand new cylinder head, which came loaded already with the valves. So I doubt there is a problem. With the lock plate I guess you mean the timing fixture plate; be assured it was the right one. Knacker - I had to look up that one yeap I hope so too. After almost 3/4 year without that machine and the best weather at the moment, it really gets to my guts. pj
Thanks Old Magnet, that's exactly how we did it. There should be no way to go wrong, if one follows this path, except if you don't ling up crank and cam timing marks correctly.
Update Talked to mechanic at the shop. He took the pump apart and will exchange some "worn" parts; bushings, bonnets, valves, springs, spacers, gasket kit, etc. He said the plungers look like new, so no need to change those. I told him, as he can not drive the pump and test/calibrate it, that I will send it to the mainland (Spokanediesel) and have it tested there. He suggested that before that, I should test it myself on the machine, which I will do. So once he's done, he will send it back to me and I will put her back on. Let's hope for the best.
While your in there it would be a good idea to replace the horseshoe shaped spring and the two dowels that make up the pulsation dampner. Would appreciate knowing the outcome of your injection pump work and installation results.
pj, firstly I a glad that you have managed to find someone to take on your pump issue, the common thing I do with these pumps after the odd 20'000 hrs is usualy around the the bonnet seal area and a freshen up of bits in the governor housing,I hope your money is well spent, on the Knacker thing it sort of means something damaged, failed or worn out, oh and a Dog has 2 of them just below his tail, hope things work out well for you. tctractors p.s. re- OM's post that horse shoe clip and dowl wear out and cause a flutter, a bit deeper in is a small thrust roller etc thats a good thing to change.
Thanks, will forward your suggestion to the mechanic. And of course I will keep you and everybody updated with this issue. pj
I would not trust the pin method of timeing would drip time to the piston. Seriously dought that this is any where near your prolem (injector pump). If you are unable to find the prolem with a shotgun aproach it is a small prolem that you havent seen like liner projection, bad waterpump, fan on backwards, crank end play.........
Follow up almost 3 months later: When we brought the FIP to the shop, the mechanic could only change parts; he didn't have the right bench to test the pump, it was to old for him. We got the pump back, put it on the machine and there was a clear fuel knock on cylinder #1. Sent the pump to anther shop on the mainland where they calibrated it and fixed that over-fueling problem. Got it back put it on the machine and the fuel knock was gone. So I warm up the machine and start to push some dirt; but still she heats up very fast; after about 10 Min. the gauge is already halfway up (200º) and when I put her under load I can hear some sort of knocking. And then, just as i drive backwards the engine seizes Pulled the cylinder head; seizure on cylinder #3. Got a new liner kit, finally got everything back together yesterday. Start her up, warm up, same thing, heats up very fast, hear a knocking but only when she is under load. Work her for 10 Min. and then "Bang" and that fricking thing seizes again :shf This time it's cylinder #2 I dont know anymore what to do??? My friend thinks it could be something in the oil gallery which is preventing the oil from squirting correctly under the piston. He wants to pull the piston #2 and pressurize the oil gallery to see if the orifices are letting oil through. Question: on these 3306 engines, do these orifices squirt out in a straight stream or is it more of a funnel? And how can these be changed? It looks like they are pressed in, but in the parts book they are listed a s replacement part. Thanks. pj
Yair . . . I am not conversant with the engine but would be very surprised if lack of under piston squirters would cause a lockup in just ten minutes working. There is something going on here and I would be inclined to look at ways of hooking in a pump to establish coolant flow across the engine. I would also check the methodology used to establish the orientation of the rods and pistons . . . particularly if they are aftermarket parts. Cheers.
We need TC tractors and some of the other gurus to chime in. I hope you find a cure you sure have been trying!!
The engine keeps over heating, is the thermostat the right one? I rebuilt my D3 and bought a thermostat from forestry something or another because it was cheaper. No biggy how hard could it be to make a thermostat. The engine started over heating after a short time. So I ordered one from CAT ($50) and the problem is gone
The thermostat I belief is the original one. I tested it in the beginning and it was working fine. But I am now inclined to change it anyway and have a close look one more time at my coolant flow.
You had better check the timing and make sure it's timed to #1 not #6 tdc. That can happen and the engine will run with disastrous results. Later Bob
This engine could be easily fixed if it was stripped to a hollow block and things checked through correctly, I could file an engine out of a solid block of steel in the time this thing has been causing dismay, the reason the motor Calved down in the very begining should have been looked into, not just thow a load of new bits at something that is going to " Spit the Dummy out " again, you would do well to find a thick un' that knows his game on CAT motors, the 3306 is about the most simple CAT basic engine to get stuck into. tctractors
10 bucks says you rolled an o-ring on the liners when you installed them. Bob
Could be! But how could this cause seizure on two different cylinders, overheating and knocking?
After all these months of guessing and checking and sweating and swearing and hustle and bustle the problem has been solved :doh: Should have listened to Bill right away and checked on that, but I trusted my "field mechanic" that much, I was also sure he did it right. Well, I did the test like Bill described and found the injection happening in the valve overlap position. That's it! Caused all these troubles. Fixed it and now she runs smooth; no overheating or knocking, just clean. But everybody was amazed that the engine could run like it did with injection timing that much off. Incredible! Just from hearing and seeing the engine running in this setting, I would have never believed this. My mechanic said he put the timing plate on, when the head was off the engine, so he could not check to see if he put it on compression stroke TDC or valve overlap. Well he had a 50/50 chance. Now we all know for the better. Like Bill said, Stuff happens! Thanks Bill and to everybody for the support. Know where to turn to next time. pj
We also had made this mistake once on a 3306. But I'm surprised anyone would not be able to tell something was very wrong! The one we screwed up on was a major overhaul and we started it out of the frame to check for "Leaks and squeaks" as the local Cat service manager called it! Norm and I both knew in a few seconds there was something way wrong! Nice thing about screwing up on a nice fresh rebuild out of frame everything was easy to get at and nice and clean. Maybe 1/2 hour later had it correctly timed and restated, sounded so much better! Anywho, glad the engine is running right now should last many years with proper care.
pjcat, kissing Bills backside on this Forum is bad "Form" and possibly you should have double checked this field mechanics efforts on such a basic and hard to get wrong issue, I will admit to sometimes re-checking an adjustment detail that nags in my mind, as when the get go button fires up the Engine things need to be as correct and "Condition Normal" ( I like these Verbs) to ensure I dont get someones boot in my rear, lets hope those rods are in the correct position? the fuel pump drive indexing is not something you get wrong easily 360 out, having the cylinder head on or off makes no odds to this adjustment, best thing you could do is get a new "field mechanic" or become 1 yourself, the script of BillWalter is from another Forum so should not be placed within this tread, I am glad you managed to get the engine running O.K. but what a time waste??? on CAT's easiest engine to work on. tctractors
Yair . . . Gotcha tctractors . I was combing through this thread and couldn't find that post . . . thanks for the heads-up Cheers.
3rd time lucky aye. Been a expensive learning curve; hope your 'mechanic' covered it on his warranty :beatsme
He was told way back before "Bill" came along to check the timing over on the ACMOC forum. Wasn't what he wanted to hear I guess. Serious time and coin wasted.
I normally don't post in threads I know nothing about, but I had to say something here. When I read the "360 degrees out" comment, I was sure it was a typo. That's my new knowledge for the day. A 3306 can run with timing a whole turn off. Amazing.
Sorry, didn't mean to break any rules, just wanted to share which method I followed to pinpoint the problem. Sure wasted lots of time and some money. This is for sure an unforgettable experience which taught me a lot in many different ways. Thanks