I'm trying to help dad find a semi, with a very limited budget. Most trucks I see that fall into the very cheap range have m11, 12.7, and I saw a 3176. Any good bad to either mileage range they should have had an overhaul at?
My favorite truck engine is any big cam 855 cummins.Very strong & reliable.Easy on the wallet when you have to work on them.
engines Try to stay with a mechanical engine, you can find a bunch of older trucks that still have alot of life in them Cummins 350 & 400 are great engines Cat 3306 good engine Cat 3406b good engine, lots of power, and it loves fuel Cat 3176 was a pretty good engine Detroit 60 series, they are electronic engines, but they are some of the better ones I know I will get some flack from the following remarks, but this just is my opinion Stay away from Volvo engines (older ones) the newer are better, but they cost a bunch to work on Stay away from Cat 3116 & 3126, they were just OK engines in trucks that you didnt need to lug them, but if you are going to carry a load, they dont last Stay away from any Cat 3208, you will be sorry if you dont listen to that one. You will usually find them in the older trucks The 7.8 Ford in small dump trucks were an OK engine, but they wouldnt take much lugging. Cummins M11 not the greatest engine The International DT466 was/is a good engine, if you have to lug it If you said, I forgot "what is the truck going to be used for?" Is it a dump truck or a road tractor There are a lot of repoed truck out there down, so you can get a good deal on trucks. I think I just bought a 2000 Volvo Triaxle dump truck with a 12.7 Detroit. This truck looks brand new, they were asking $35,000 and I offered them $12,000.00 and they accepted $13,000.00 what a deal. I just done this today Let us know what kind of truck you are looking for, maybe we can help Good Luck
350 cummins is the best engine ever made. It is weak by todays standards but it will get the job done and is decent on fuel. 3406 Cat is another really good motor and you can get the horse out of them, they are pretty easy to adjust the power up. Best mid size engine is the Navistar DT466 (there is nothing that can touch it). The cat 3116 and cummins 8.3 are hit and miss. As far as when to overhaul that is really hard to say, it can vary from 500,000 miles to 2,000,000 miles. Friend of mine has a detroit 60 with 3 miliion and no major overhaul. The good news is that older trucks are dirt cheap, not hard to get a buy on a clean truck
Lets get the terms straight first. Motor is for electric. Engine is for internal combustion engine as in gasoline or Diesel power. Now that I have gotten over being so damn technical, lets go for a Mack E7 series 400 horse power. This engine is mechnical and does a terriffic job. I reinforce the above statements about the Volvos and 3208 Cats. Cat 3406 is also good engine.
Engine and motor. Hello. 3406 and series 60 are proven winners in the OTR fleet. A lot of tandems are old recycled OTR trucks with the sleeper removed and a new body. This is sometimes the most cost effective option, as the OTR truck has seen a lot of miles, true, but this is highway miles, not rough service by any means.
It's going to be used to pull a grain hopper. Probably most it'll see is 30 miles one way.
I agree with most or the above replys Unless you get a real good deal on an electronic truck stay away they can be a real pain to troubleshoot or repair the Ntc cummins up to the step timed engines are good but they are an automotive governor ,top end only so you have to learn tricks to warm them up at hi (900-1100 rpm ) 3406 mechanical C engines are excellent run clean decent on fuel unless you runn them hard they start well run clean at 30 seconds you set the idle and walk away Detroits mechs were 2 strokes and if not familiar don't buy one series 60s are electronic and can be a head ache you are better to buy more truck than you need and if you are hauling out of fields and don't plan on spending a lot of time on the highway look for 3.90 or numerically higher rear ratios Also tall 24.5 tires are easier to get to roll in offroad conditions if geared for it
I know they are leakers but my tandem dump a 1979 8v92 silver detroit 475+hp will pull like a son of a gun.I am retiring her for a 2003 mack E7 427hp really anxious to see the difference
I wasn't saying that they're not a decent engine but as you know they aren't like a mack, cat or cummins and trying to find somebody to fix one anymore is a bit of a chalenge If that mack has a mack trans you're in for a bit of a learning curve
That Mack 18 speed is one miserable SOB,isn't it?Tough as nails but what a pig to shift.Ron G
you got that right takes about a week to get close to being able to shift it
Cummins. You can get parts for a Cummins at NAPA, fer crissakes. A CAT may be sexier and sound better, and may pull better, but if you are down waiting for a part to be shipped in, it ain't worth beans.
Asking such a question is like asking chevy vs ford vs dodge. In my opinion the later detroit 60's arent too bad, pretty good on fuel but in my opnion the best of the best are the 855 cummins, the n14 red tops and the signature 600s.
i'd go with the 3176 cat. i got a 94 pete 378 with the 3176 with 800,000 miles on it and it's had three turbos and a new head put on and no other major problems. they have more than enough power for pullin a grain trailer and they're a good off road/on road engine and they're not that thirsty either.
Of the engines you listed in the 1st post I would be inclined to the 12.7 DD. They are cheaper than most to fix and the 430/470 will give you loads more power than the other's. Also the DD is a fuel squeezing son of a gun. I would suggest that what ever you buy you get an oil sample, run it on a Dyno, and check the charge air cooler. There is a guy named Kevin Rutheford on xm radio that is pretty sharp when it comes to buying used trucks. He's got a web site called cdlofit.com I am a Cummins homer and have run the Older mechnical 350's and 400 big cam and also the electronic M11 and N-14. If I had all the tea in China I would build a truck with the N-14. Caterpillar makes the finest equipment out there. Their engines are hogs as well... but they ain't Gold colored for nothing. $$$$. Have a great day. The views expressed in this reply are solely that of the writer... me! If you don't like them that's OK!!
i'd rather have a white cat 3408 Eric...
I like red heads! Preferably with 525 horses!
cats are a great engine but if your in colder weather and plugging them in slips your mind alot id go with a cummins a L-10 is a smaller engine that makes around 300 hp they seem to be a good lightweight engine remember the less the engine weighs the more you can haul
Of those 3 I'll just say M11 is a fine engine, sure it has a computer but I've gotten past several ECM faults just by wiggling wires and blinking out codes then looking them up. Pretty mechanic friendly and a simple system.
Thanks for the reply's so far. On the look again, due to the hopper I found was sold out from underneath me. The one with the M11 is sold now, but the odometer didn't match the said miles. The 12.7 right next to it also the odometer didn't match, but ruled itself out with a little knock. Haven't been able to look at the 3176 since it's farther away (275 miles). I guess I'll keep looking at various trucks, and try to find another reasonalbly price hopper.
Going by what the farmers do here.Use the truck during planting and harvest season Stay in the shed rest of the time.If thats what you will do stay away from electronic engines.The little furry critters called rats will cost you a bundle.The old Mack R model with a 300 Maxidine and a 6 speed it one tough truck.Loggers used them for years.Bullet proof.Not pretty don't ride real smooth but they are tough.
LOL! That's why they are CHEAP! Nobody wants them unless it is some jockey who wants to run 50 trucks with 100 Steering wheel holders hauling containers 24/7. Like everyone else said I'd go with an older conventional mechanical 3406 Cat, 400 Cummins, 13/15 spd. 3.90 ratio 40,000 plus rears if you're going to get off road much. I'd stay away from the electronic engines if you are on a budget. If you can find a Mack for the right price and have some experience with them and have part readily available you cant beat 'em. Check out Craigslist in California lots of cheap trucks and equipment there. One of the best trucks I ever owned was 1987 Ford LTL 9000 w/425hp 3406 Cat, 13 spd.
Running Mack 18 speeds here. In my book they shift fine. I will admit that they are a bit "klunky" and you have to have the ground speed and tach just right to make them slide into gear. They are tough as nails though. I also have a fuller 10 speed with a deep reduction in my Mack lowboy tractor. Easier shifting than the Mack 18 but I would buy another one in a heart beat if I needed one.
I'd like ot throw my $0.02 in I guess. For cost savings on the initial purchase it's fine to go woth a mechanical engine like said above, though I have never known anyone given the choice without the cost being a factor that'd take a 3406B over a 3406E. The M11 is a fine engine, as is the 3176, though the valve train in the 3176 is overly complicated. I did read several posts about 500+hp, I don't think the big HP is as important as the engine type for your application. I'm sure you can make any combination of engine/trans work, just try really hard to be practical more than going for the big #. You can always put a "600HP Cat sticker on the hood of your 325hp 3176 equipped truck if you want both bragging rights and the right equipmemnt for the job.
It all boils down to one thing.If it makes you money and your happy you got the right truck.Any time you buy used unless you know who owned it last its' like rolling dice.I knew a man that had a GMC with a 238 Detroit with a 5 speed and 2 speed rear plus drag axle.The truck paid for it self his trailers,house and land.Would not sell it or trade it.I bet he has still got that ol truck too.
We mostly run Mack's, set from 350hp up to 460hp and have always had good luck with all of them. The mechanical 350's in our DM's and older R models are cheap to work on and fairly easy on fuel. My neighbor has two old Ford LTL9000's running 3406's set to 425hp. I run them during harvest hauling corn or soybeans, I swear that they pull alot harder than our 460 mack does.
RonG, I have mack 18 speeds here. If you don't have the engine speed and ground speed correct it just plain ain't gonna go in gear, no doubt about it. The sooner you learn that this is a transmission that you are going to do it her way you will get along just fine with her. I love my Mack 18's but I learned a long time ago that it was her way, or her way and if you didn't want to do it her way you could do it her way.
LOL,the worst shifting truck I ever drove. .Ron G
I am about to get reaquainted with the 350 Cummins. I have driven a truck with one in Fort Nelson B.C. I remember that they will rev up if you set the idle when the engine is cold. They don't like to be lugged. Any other good or bad points? Most of my 30 years trucking has been with Cat engines 1979 375hp and 1990 425hp 3406. Probably not the best on fuel but nice to drive. I also remember a Mack I drove with a 300+ and Mack transmission that had as many speeds in reverse as it had in forward.
you cant go wrong with a CAT. i love em, we have them in our Peterbilts, a 550 and 600. but we just rebuilt a KW and put back in the original detroit 8V92, it sounds pretty amazing. there are a lot of youtube vids with that engine either just idling or going through the gears.
CalChando sure had it right about the detroit 8v92. Anybody who ever had a v8 muscle car has got to love the sound of a 8v92 under power or on the jake.I'm pretty sure the sound adds at least 100 mental horsepower.Just don't roll down the window and plan on listening to the radio. I just parked my 1979 Chevy Bison(Gmc General)with an 8v92 silver 475hp and started running the new to me truck. A 2003 Mack Granite running an E7 427hp it seems to pull about the same but it sure doesn't feel like I'm going as fast.I keep having to look at the spedo.
An old big cam cummins is hard to beat. I pull logs with an 85 model ford ltl 9000 with a 350 big cam and a 13 speed . The newer trucks with the high horsepower electronic engines sometimes pass me, but that dont bother me none. The old gal is pretty cheap on fuel ,has ben reliable, and sounds sweet when she's pulling . What more could a man ask for.
What changes were there in the 350 Cummins from a 1976 model to your 1985 350? Were there improvements made?
I really dont know. I dont think there were any major changes.
I think the old (1976) ones would have had a small cam, which caused problems with regard to wear. The later ones had BIG CAM cast into the side of the block and were much more durable. My favorite Cummins is either the 350 or 400 Big Cam III. When they went to the Big Cam IV they changed the cooling system into a complex split system which was not effective unless everything was perfect. NTC855 Cummins engines do NOT tolerate overheating and will score pistons/liners easily.
I would get something with a Cummins N14 in it. It is a very easy engine to work on.
3406 a or b models I can't remember are pullers. My old man ran a 79 KW with one in it and a ceramic clutch, anyone but him tried drivin it they'd spinn off a driveshaft. I've heard some of the older smaller sized CAT's aren't really worth it to rebuild though.
the CAT motor i'm thinking of was painted white.
Sounds like the 3406 A model.Had one in a KW that was white.Good puller and great on fuel.400 HP.And you could pull it down to 1200 RPMs and it would still carry the load.
2 stick ... the A models from what I understood they were more costly to rebuild because of the one piece head .... if it was cracked or otherwise OUCH ! .....but what an awesome engine ...... My truck had a Big Cam 475 twin turbo when I first got it .... Loved the power nice to drive ...BUT ..... in 9 years, 39 injectors, 2 major fuel pump rebuilds, 4 water pumps, 12 pistons and liners ( cracking and electrolocis), and every year wether I wanted to or not $2,500.00 tune job including the jake spools set-up and valves set and the MVT re-built, 2 sets of turbos (ouch) and cracked cam followers needing a rebuild ....the final straw was it cooked its self when a liner went ..... in my second truck almost a twin to the first for specs, it had about the same amount of hrs and milage ...it was powered with a 425B model cat, it had none of the above issues like the Cummins, one bearing roll-in (prev.maintainance) it found its way into my first Truck which is another long story how/why ....but not now .....CAT all the way
A CAT with a two piece head?Cummins and Mack got two piece heads but I think all CATS are one piece.I don't think the 3406A had the spacer plate.The rest do have it.
N14 cummins.
Older engines rule!!! Well I might go with "older" engines as they are more reliable than most of today's electronic and E.P.A ruined nightmares. On the CATERPILLAR side I have to say that I really like the CATERPILLAR 3208 V8. Love by some and hated by others. I know is not a HIGH HORSEPOWER engine, I even call them "slow engines" or "dirty engines". I had work with a few of them in mostly older FORD TRUCKS (F7000) If I had to get an "in-town" light load say on a SINGLE AXLE DUMP TRUCK a 3208 works fine. Is how you spec it or how your POWERTRAIN is combined. Lots of friends here couple FULLER transmisions to 3208 V8 engines. I have driven a CUSTOM BUILT TWIN TRUBO CATERPILLAR 3208 V8 on a FORD F7000, a tandem axle truck with MACK REARS and a FULLER 10 SPEED. It runs pretty good up to 60 MPH. Now I know I can not pull a LARGE or BIG LOAD with a 3208. But is how you work it that will tell you how reliable an engine is. i KNOW I can not go 80-90 MPH on my CATERPILLAR 3208 neither on my old IHC DT 466. CATEERPILLAR 3406 MECHANICAL engine is a stout performer, great pulling power. 10 years on a KENWORTH T800 with this engine and NO MAYOR issues until a mechanical mal-practice by an technician that do not know anything about CATERPILLAR engines. MACK engines I have to say are the most impresive and reliable ones I have worked on. I will allways still working with E6, EM6 and E-7 series engines for they are UNBEATABLE. From ratings of 237 to 470 HP this engines are true PERFORMERS they never know when to quit. I love the BIG 998 cubic inch MACK E-9 V8 but the only draw-back is that they are EXPENSIVE to rebuild and OVERHAUL KITS are not easy to find and are over-priced. DETROIT DIESEL and CUMMINS , hummmm not to much knowlege on them since they are my least favorites. We had so may troubles with our DETROIT DIESEL SERIES 60 engine. It spilled oil and blowed turbos on a common basis. CUMMINS well we have no issues with our CUMMINS 444, maybe we got that one right.
Look at it this way: A Detroit screams (at least the old two cycles did) A Cummins whimpers A Cat purs and a Bulldog (Mack) well, she just plain GROWLS!!!!!!!!!!
I thought I was the only one who had a Cat with one head. If it were a 2 headed Cat it would be in Ripley's Believe it or Not.
This thread was started over a year ago I hope he found what he was looking for.
I have a Bias opinion due to the fact that I'm a CAT guy, but the 3176 was a good engine. biggest thing to worry about with them is getting them hot. They have an aluminum spacer between the head and the block, bad design. (cast iron head, cast iron block, steel head bolts.) If you blow a head gasket, good chance it is because a head bolt broke. If you run across a C12, this is the replacement engine for the 3176, its one tough engine. also depending on what your hauling, a c10 is a good engine to. a 3116 is also a good dependable engine, biggest issues with them were injector tip seals. they blow, you get air in the fuel, then it smokes and runs like crap, but its a simple fix. Im a CAT mechanic and they any of these engines are good ones in my opinion.
I've had best experience with older Cummins & CAT. I owned a few Detroit diesels when the 71 & 92 series were the only choice. I even had a V12 detroit or two at one time but nothing stands up to the elements like CAT or Cummins. Stay away from the old Cummins 903 V8's or the big KT(one head per cylinder)series. The 855 big cam Cummins is the toughest engine they ever produced. At present I own an older triaxle Western Star lowboy tractor with a 3406B 425hp CAT. It does a fine job pulling whatever is loaded behind it. I have owned many of these CAT diesels in past trucks mostly in older Peterbuilts. The CAT uses a little more fuel than Cummins but has more torque. When comes time to overhaul this engine I plan to experiment with some newer pistons & larger turbo options to increase power & fuel mileage. No thanks, nothing electronic for me. I see the expense some of these guys go through without the option of working on them with a simple box of hand tools. You can also boost the horse power on these older engines without the expensive electronic headaches & without worrying about hurting the mechanical diesels as long as you drive them correctly. Of course that's the life of any engine depending on what kind of cowboy is behind the wheel:cool2