Hi all New here so hi to all around the world from new Zealand My dilemma started about a month ago ... I own a ec140cl serial number 110228 done 9500hrs I have owned it for last 3 years and brought it at 5000hrs Until now it's been faultless I have owned volvos since 2000 when I brought my first one and have had an exceptional run out of them till now So this thing will start and run beautifully then usually after an hour or so it will start black smoking hugely to the point the motor will start rattling and shut down if you let it If you turn key off and then restart straight away it will start and go again for anything from 5min to a hour and do same thing again. So a few so called experts have looked and poked then walked away with hands in air. There are no fault codes showing The injectors have been replaced along with fuel rail sensor and relief valve. Fuel control unit and cam and crank sensors Tappets been set Nothing seems to change?? When screen is in service mode the fuel pressure doesn't alter or spike when it happens the ecu voltages all constant and no fault codes Even when plugged into laptop white it's doing it nothing shows as faulty I would swear with my mechanical knowledge that it has an injector staying open and flooding a cylinder or at least that's what it sounds like Any ideas cause I'm out of fresh ones Thanks Colin
The fuel side you can obviously monitor and that looks to be ok, so that leaves air? have you tried looking at the complete air system, filters? no collapsing pipework? turbo failing? leaking intercooler when hot is it expanding a crack that leaks air?
Funwithfuel will be your main man in Volvos. I can’t run your serial number to see how old of the generation fuel system is. But if it is older mechanical injection pump with aneroid, then you might have problems with that aneroid ( which might be messed with) and your air intake system. If it’s newer system - same thing different cookies. Problem with air intake system ( including turbo bushings leaking oil like there’s no tomorrow), and something with boost pressure detection. It’s sounding more like something with air intake/boost system, than fuel injection. Leaking fuel injector will make engine to misfire like sun of the gun, and if you have newer emissions engine you’ll have tons of DOC/DPF codes. But I’ve never seen them produce too much black smoke. When diesel starving on air - then you’ll see black smoke like out of the steam locomotive.
If it's a boost problem with air, you should really be getting a boost pressure sensor problem SE2508 the sensor is on the top of the inlet manifold. I have sent you a message with a S/B on it
Thanks guys forgot the run down on the air side.... New map sensor Turbo posting 25psi at full noise no oil (motor not using any either) checked both sides of turbo shaft Been through intercooler side as well Have run it bypassing intercooler and filter no change It's a common rail motor (tcd2012 deutz ) When it does it motor starts a death rattle pinking knock When it's going good it's the normal fuel efficient purring kitten and absolutely no power loss
Hmm. Sounds like timing issue. Too restarted. Not sure whether crankshaft position or ECM. Sorry I missed whatever you wrote at the beginning, somehow. I would start looking at that engine harness very attentively. With issue being that intermittent putting a scope on it wouldn’t be practical.
Thanks guys Forgot the air blurb ... Map sensor new Turbo checked both sides. 25 lb Boast at full noise No leaking oil (motor dosnt use a drop either) have been through the intercooler and filters Have even run with air bypassed no change It's common rail ( tcd2012 deutz) When it's running it's the normal fuel efficient purring kitten with no power loss at all
No codes at all
Like I said, good old engine harness pulling and jerking, looking for rub through on sharp points won’t hurt. It is possible that something messing up crank position sensor signal.
No codes means either your ECM is goofed up. Or signal that ECM getting is plausible, or not corrupt enough. But it’s just a wrong signal. It might be also an mechanical problem with relauctance or tooth wheel, or sensor loose in its mount, or gap too large, etc.
when you said you have replaced things like the injectors...... were they refurb'd, new, aftermarket? it's not unheard of to have a faulty unit even new
Is that crank pulley harmonic balancer also? Maybe rubber failing?
All replacement stuff was new bosh stuff as what was on it Yer been doing abit of swapsies with.my other machine to try eliminate faulty new etc Got the entire engine harness on my table dismantled going through it nothing obvious and meter no showing me any faults at mo Going to put my scope on injectors tomorrow to try check signals when it starts playing dead
Might want to check the voltage on those, to pick the right attenuator. Are those piezo injectors? I’m not familiar with new Deutz.
Another thought: there probably trottle body on it ( for EGR) that one can mess with your air intake, if functions improperly. And turbo probably VGT, i wouldn’t tell how it might start messing things up - but that’s just a theory. Just not sure whether those things will cause rattling. Although if trottle body made by Bosch - those things fail a lot, but they usually throw codes.
You aren't getting any errors for fuel system failure? When rail pressure exceeds desired, she'll rattle a bit, like fuel knock but not as hard. Whenever the desired and actual aren't keeping up with one another, you should generate a code for rail pressure high/low. The thing is, you have to catch the code active, it won't log in the history. On your monitor, in service mode, can you observe fuel pressures? There should be rail pressure and fuel pressure. We want to monitor these values first with key on, engine off. Verify that the values are plausible. Maybe 1000 psi in the rai or so and 0 fuel pressure. Now start it up. Just idling, should be between 8-11000 psi and fuel pressure should be between 45-70 psi. Full throttle, arm-in over relief, your fuel should be rock steady at about 70. Your rail should be 15k or better. If you see rail approaching 21k, your regulator is probably sticking . Now if you hear the rattle, but rail pressure is not fluctuating, your sensor might be stuck or sticking. Last on the list, check your return line from the engine to the tank. Blow through it. I've had instances where a return line collapses, kinks, gets jammed up with a flapper. That gives the fuel control nowhere to bleed off, as a result rail pressure skyrockets. Note for personal safety. The pressures in the fuel system are no joke and should not be taken lightly. No matter where you are in the world, you aren't close enough to a hospital should you suffer fuel injection into your body. Please be careful, wear heavy leather gloves where possible , give the rail time to bleed down after sut down before opening the system. Most of all good luck and keep us posted.
I’ve got one question Funwithfuel: I can’t sleep because of my chronic cortisol problems - why in the heck are you not sleeping at that time?!
Just getting up to start the day.
That’s kinda early, we are on the same time.
4:30 gotta give coffee time to get the blood pumping.
That was 3:57, actually. I did fall asleep towards morning, and added little bit of snooze later. I got this thing from my crazy over the road driving days. Now it ruins my life.
Thank you for free education! I learned something today. Im not really good with newer CRD engines, as I am more of a “fluid power”specialist, not engine or specific brand tech. One of my customers had Genie with one of those, it was pumping out codes that didn’t make any sense through the machines monitor. I guess the ECM on Deutz and machines VECU didn’t understand each other. The only people who had Deutz scan tool was marine people - and you know what kinda money they want! Taylor Sudden Service is supposedly Deutz dealer, but my buddy that work for them said that Deutz wouldn’t sell them software. I didn’t know that Volvo have them in their machine, got to ask Cowin whether they have scan tool, for the next time. Anyway - that machine kept having fuel system and emissions problems, electronic joystick started acting up ( harness issues ), and last straw the broke camels back was that brakes started grabbing. So owner got emotional and hauled it off to auction. Lost good chunk of money , because of those codes.
Run the sucker till it choked itself to death left key on plugged remote computer in and got these ??
There’s you have it. Like Funwithfuel said - rail PRV
The fuel control valve has a metering valve on top with 2 or 3 dinky torx screws. If you remove it and see rust, probably a good indicator that it's failed.
PRV would dump , just like a failed injector would dump. Low rail doesn't yield black smoke, you get white. High rail gives you black accompanied by the fuel knock.
And it's brand new !!
The only thing is - scan tool messed up something: PSID 97 is WIC. Only how in the hell you get “mechanically nit responsive” from water in fuel sensor. Looks like that S shouldn’t be there
I think I got wrong info
Hmm to match over fueling ( PRV stuck close) FMI should be 11, not 14. Or am I wrong?
And 164/2 when sets together with 97/14. Looks like low reference voltage to pressure sensor ( plus more reasons). You can’t fix that by replacing pressure sensor alone. It’s either wiring issue, or some other sensor on the same branch pulling reference voltage down.
It might not be any of the actuators PRV or Suction valve. It might be wrong sensor information, system doesn’t know where it’s at.
Have opened up both pmv ( the new one and the original one) and both are clean and rust free Unless I'm missing 1 there is 2 sensors in that loop 1 at end of rail and 1 on valve? This morning it started instant run like a true volvo for close on 2 hrs then it started a couple of little puffs before full on rattle/smoke Only place I havnt looked at is fuse/relay circuit board don't know if fuel system has relays or anything in that vicinity
Some may
Fuel pressure while running at idle then full
Low pressure 6.1 bar constant High pressure motor off key on all zero Idle 680 - 750 bar Full throttle 950 - 1200bar
Have you verified return fuel back pressure? In other words, did you blow through the return line? FCV metering valve is fail to open. The metering actually closes the valve. Did you happen to monitor rail actual vs desired when this occurred? Swap FCV off your known good running engine., just the metering valve, you don't have to swap out the housing. It just a housing with a low side pressure regulator under the base. What we're after is high side control. The PRV is gonna need changing soon. High rail causes them to open, this is for safety, not function. Opening the valve wears em out. The rail kit includes the safety and the sensor
I empty and cleaned tank blew every single line from start to finish when injectors went in a few weeks ago but followed and blew out return this morning again just to check it off I have a deutz trained volvo marine man and all his gadgets coming in morning am going to pass on some of your messages for him to mull over to I can get myself so far but went to school to eat lunch never relising back then abit more knowledge is never a bad thing
It had a rail kit a week ago
If we knew then, what we know now, we wouldn't have acted the way we did making us what we are now.
Amen lol i will update tomorrow after the 4th expert has had his say
I don’t have experience with Volvos, but in other machines with Deutz engines - the Deutz ECM doesn’t have a good track record of communication with VECU. One of the machines I worked on - we couldn’t make sense of any codes that was coming from ECM. It’ll be good if he can connect straight to Deutz ECM.
Volvo doesn't offer the ability to use serdia. Gotta use techtool.
Darn it!
What machine was that originally? Who Volvo bought, and put their stickers on it?
That’s a “gross understatement”!!!
“deutz trained volvo marine man” Marine?!?! You must have large bank account or you are super desperate!
Volvo has an interest in Deutz , part of that big Merge back with Volvo, Mack, Deutz after Renault. Originally, way, way back Volvo exc was a Samsung product. The 140 has always been it's own machine with its own peculiarities. Very reliable machines for the most part.
Got it. What the hell is that Upright XR series telehandlers? Never seen them. I only know about Hyster Z90 kind, that was sold and resold, been Volvo and IR. Judging by the looks and model numbers - it’s a bastards of Square Shooter. Did Volvo and Terex did any comingiling wit telehandlers in the past?
Don't know anything about that. Volvo CE bought IR road building stuff just for the Blaw-Knox name and proceeded to ruin the name. Got rid of dynex pumps for their own . The I R rollers seem to hold up ok. The partnership with JCB for skidders was a mistake imho, shoulda kept the scat-trak alive.
Yeah, JCB Robots was OKish - these newer ones is garbage.
I googled it. Upright was an aerial platform manufacturer. Somehow manilfts ended up with Snorkel, and telehandlers with Volvo
Guy on the other thread is looking for pump replacement for Upright
So looks like Upright got bought out back in 2001-2002. Tanfield Group got the manlifts, that is Snorkel. Volvo got the telehandlers and added them to IR.
It was actually IR that did all of the damage. Volvo just never brought the product back to what it once was.
Volvo never added any telehandlers to the IR lineup. The IR material handlers were sold to SkyTrak shortly after the acquisition.
A Blaw-Knox was still , pretty much, a Blaw-knox till Volvo got a hold of it. They did bring it into the 21st century, but with weak electronics. It truly is Volvo/B-K now. You are right though I-R did start the process of screwing stuff up.
For a couple million more, bobcats would now be wearing the iron mark.... but Doosan scored that line.
AS far as diagnosing the OP's fault foes I would echo what @funwithfuel said and try to catch the data in TT when the fault occurs. You should be able to monitor fuel feed pressure, rail pressure and rail target pressure. I would also ask how many occurrences of each fault code you have. Going off what is shown so far I am kind of suspecting and issue with the FCV control circuit or the FCV itself. It is not very tolerant of contamination and that is one of the more common issues. But if the circuit has any issue with high resistance or a very intermittent open it could cause this situation. I usually do not see the black smoke though.
At one point they had both. And Sky Trak is JLG now
The problem with sensor ( especially reference voltage) can get screwed readings. Especially in the window of not even 5 volts. I think that part of the problem should be investigated.
No IR introduced the 6000 series before Volvo was in the picture. This was a completely different machine. It shared nothing in common with the Blaw-Knox pavers.
Why would you want to work on that crap?!?! I absolutely hate them, work on them only for very good customers. I’d rather work on darned ( ever ever loose drive motor bolts) JCB!!!
Not the sensor, the pwm on the FCV. This will cause a PSID 97 code. A faulty sensor will almost always cause a PSID 96 code
It was barking on out of spec sensor reading. Unless Volvo changed the parameters of 164/2 The only thing I don’t get: over pressure/over fueling should be FMI 11, but we got FMI 14
That does not mean that the sensor is at fault. If the control is not functioning properly the actual pressure can be out of spec and the sensor can read correctly. This is likely confirmed buy the PISID 97 FMI 7.
You might be right. I’m not familiar with Deutz ECM strategy
Deffinatly the desperate category
Apprantly he is the goto man when stuff is put in the to hard basket by others All though I do understand most of what you guys are saying I'm lacking the knowledge to test some of it It's one thing to plug a computer in to these things but it's a whole other world deciphering the information....which is why I call mechanics these days part fitters....keep fitting new **** till problem goes away ...never mind the customer has to pay
Brought my first volvo in 1999 after hiring one for a few months on a job working with my hitachis Got a 140b and a 210b in first lot then traded the others 6mths later ended up with 7 in the fleet and never looked back Both the first 2 were sold at 9000hrs with new track gear and absolutely nothing else done to them Personly the b series was better than the c series....but 6 mths ago this little 140c at 9000hrs out did a 500hr hitachi for 3 weeks solid in fuel economy and break out force and loading times
What pump does Volvo make? I only know about Volvo being involved in Swedish manufacturer that actually came up with bent axis pumps and motors, for not so long time. The whole deal ended up being popular Parker V and F series bent axis motors, and pumps kinda gone in to obscurity.
Fascinating story about that Upright Telehandler line. It’s all murky, but looks like it ended up at Ahern Group as Xtreme brand. I don’t know if it was parallel with Volvo when Ahern bought the aerial platform line of Upright and turn it to Snorkel, or how this deal went.
IR replaced the Dynex auger conveyor pumps with Sauer Danfoss systems. Blaw-Know already used the Danfoss pumps on their propel circuit. None of the hydraulics were Volvo products.
Got it. Thanks!
Will be interesting what the expert comes back with. Where i would be looking is chaffing in wiring loom. Specifically to the SCV in the HP pump. Pressure wash with engine running. If it faults your on the right track. Dont overlook the fact that at 9000hrs, i have seen deutz engines totally worn out. Run sweet. Didnt burn oil. Only symptom was overheating. Was due to overfueling. Ring groves where like “V”s and rings where basically gone.
Can anyone help with wiring diagram for loom from back of cab (2 big plugs at ecu) to the square engine plug on flywheel end of motor ?? Still no joy saga continues After pulling panels off I found a small drip from a pilot hose fitting which happens to be dropping in split tube covering the loom...wondering if when oil gets hot it's affecting the wiring....maybe...
I doubt the oil concerns, but here you go
Not unless it ate insulation on the wires. And wires starting shorting.